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TheMagician16

My 4-1-2-3. It works but I am not sure why it works and it doesnt work like I want it to

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Hello, I would appreciate some help. I am playing as man city in 2030 and I have all these years played with them and kept the same formation (4-2-3-1). I am trying to create a tactic kind of similar to Pep's man city currently (i've seen the pep replicate thread) but with some tweaks that match my philosophy. I want to play posession football and high scoring games. I want to build from the back and have the "do not lose the ball" mentality until I reach the final third. In the final third i want to utilise my players in midfield and flanks (which has amazing passing/technique/vision) to play passes that can open their defences, i.e through ball, one-two's, to my winger, who then crosses to my striker/runner from midfield. All in all, I think basically what I want is Pep's man city type of style or perhaps Napoli's (Sarri's) style where I can control the game and keep possession and open up defences with passes to flanks/space/behind defense to a runner who then either ideally is 1v1 with keeper or free on the flanks to get a low cross in.

 

Currently I am seeing a lot of situations where I can't keep posession properly (analysis says I lose the ball a lot in central areas also), strikers not clinical enough in certain games even tho that striker is 2x ballon'dor winner and basically Messi of this generation with 50+ goals each season, them crossing it high instead of low to my players in box, shooting from wide areas and long range etc.

 

Since ive used this tactic for almost 10+ years and won CL 5x, PL 6x, bunch of cups etc I've switched probably all the roles and duties at some point. For example my DM used to be a half back, anchorman, or even defensive mid. Central midfielders used to be CM (A/S), B2B, RPM etc. so I've tried all different combination through the years and even in one season I had 49 game unbeaten run (could not beat arsenals record which was also at 49 -.-) but without actually playing football the way I want. Maybe I saw that once or twice every 10 game where they would play like i want.

 

 

 

 

Manchester City_  Overview.png

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From what you've said I think a few roles and/or duties are out of place for that style:

  •  Winger isn't really a "possession" style of role with high dribbling, crossing and staying wide + high on attack duty so less available for passes to his feet.  Whilst you say this is intended, I find it very strange to have it as a main route to goal when your playing a patient possession style, letting opponents get back into defence before you then cross it.  Plus how good are your players in the box if they are expected to be good possession players?  Personally i'd leave the crossing to the FBs when there's no other options.
  • The AP duty doesn't really change where he plays, just makes him take more risks and dribble more so I think a support duty would fit him better for that style.
  • SK-A again is very risky with the ball looking to start counter attacks so really the opposite of "don't lose the ball"

Can't see some of your TI's that could be affecting play.  Be More Expressive i'm not sure will help, you already have two playmakers who get more creative freedom and your ST is expected to do pretty much everything anyway.

Player attributes are just as important, making sure they have the mental attributes to stay patient, see the options and make the right decision before there technical ability come into play to successfully do it.  I'd avoid traits shoots from distance, tries risky passes often, gets forward when possible, beats offside trap etc so they don't waste the ball and stay available for possession passes.  Traits like arrives late into opposition area, dictates tempo (playmaker), come deep to collect ball (but not too many players!) could help.

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1 hour ago, summatsupeer said:

SK-A again is very risky with the ball looking to start counter attacks so really the opposite of "don't lose the ball"

Yes, a lot of people choosing SK when trying a possession tactic... it's the opposite, same as BPD.

I think it's a combo of SI using bad terminology or associating the role with the wrong kind of player i.e. City play out from the back and keep the ball, but if an opportunity arises, the CBs are proficient enough to make the pass. They 'play the ball' around so ... BPD. But they don't immediately look to launch a long pass, negating KDB, D Silva et al... no, 90% of the time they bring in the IWB, or HB (Ferny) to then play through the central creative players.

With SK... it should be decoupled from what they do on the ball... sweeper keeper is just a keeper who rushes out more, or positions himself more aggressively, to 'sweep' up balls played behind an aggressive D-Line. SI need to introduce a role, or preferably a PI, to make the GK a ball player (by which I mean a passing option to recycle possession and 'play out from the back')

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Firstly, you have to work out where you want to keep possession, and set the players up to do it. You have a midfield trio, with one deep lying player who can form a nice central triangle. What you need to do to ensure possession can be kept relatively easily is to ensure that here is a proper support network out wide around your central players. You want to make sure no player is isolated without passing options. Currently, your winger, when he gets the ball, is going to run into isolation without many options for recycling the ball. For me, when I am playing possession, I want to make sure my full backs end up in the midfield strata when we attack, but do not often run further forward. That way, we end up with 5 midfield players when we attack. With a BBM, you could even look to have a IWB on the same side, who will come more central (check it does not cause positional problems). As a general rule, try to make sure every player has 2 passing options in most situations.

Second, you need to work out how you are going to score. Possession football is a defensive tactic when played alone. You are keeping the ball to prevent the opposition having it, and if they do not have it, they cannot score. What makes a possession tactic deadly is having the right combination of players who can stretch defenses and make space for other players to exploit. Here, you 3 forwards are going to be key, and you are absolutely right to have a central runner from the midfield (I play the same shape, and my runner is a CM(A). I cannot really give you a set of positions that will make this work, however, since more often than not I set up to exploit counter attacks with my pacy forwards. One example of how it could work is to feed the ball to your striker, who drops deeper and drags a defender with him. The IF or BBM can try to exploit that. Likewise, the winger can try to open space out wide. I like to try to create overloads on one flank by having a winger and an attacking fullback on the same side. I often read this is bad because players will get in each others way. However, my aim is to force the defending side to commit more players out wide to deal with the threat. As long as I make sure there is a central pass to a midfielder, I can try to exploit this. Or, if the AI does not commit extra players wide, we have a 2v1 and an easy overlap + cross.

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Hello and thanks for the help guys. I changed around some roles again because our away form against top 6 was pretty bad before I could read your replies. Normally I would be more cautious with my tactic and roles and have them take a lot of less risk, but because of united 200m€ spending every season, they've forced my hand to do the same, and I basically have fully capped, world class and Ballon'dor contenders in every position :D thus I gave them some role with a bit of more risk, because I felt for example one of my midfielders did not contribute much in final third even tho he is basically Modric in my save.

 

For the Sweeker Keeper Attack role, the reason I chose this (even though I used Support or defend duty on him) is he doesn't come out for the ball. Over the top balls are a big problem for me because of slow defenders, and by changing the GK to attack duty I thought maybe he will stay higher up and possibly go for the ball a bit more because distance from ball and players going for it seems to be a weird thing in the ME. I also noticed occasionally since he has good passing we caught out a lot of teams off guard by him making precise passes to my wide players who then create a chance, since most teams park the bus against me, having these moments can mean win/lose/draw. But he usually passes to my backline as per the PI. If that is not how the Attack duty will work in reality, let me know.

 

For my Winger, he has cut inside PPM, which I've read somewhere works well to counter Wingers one dimensial running pattern. He has been doing really well and with through balls he is unstoppable due his 19 pace and 19 dribbling and just runs from people. I could use a different role here as this one is not 100% sure for me, but I made some tweaks to tactic yesterday and made my left back Inverted to help the middle and the winger provide with until he cuts inside, but again im not 100% if the winger is right role, so Im open to suggestion on what to use here, considering I have a world class wide player here.

 

As for the possession.. i forgot to mention in OP that i rather have more passes than possession in the match stats. I've played game where I've had 60% possession but opponent making more passes than me.. does this mean my players just hold on to the ball? All my midfield except one maybe has tries killer passes, to unlock defenses. They have all 17+ in passing and vision those who have this trait.

 

I forgot to mention in OP that possession is more of a bonus for me. I only want to have it on my side of pitch. When we arrive closer to opponent I want to have runners that get picked out by passes into space, or provide short options until someone can find a space, and keeping possession in that area is not as important. Its kinda hard to explain :(

 

i will post the new "tactic" when Im on my pc, but I feel i got a better balance this time perhaps.

 

Edit: https://imgur.com/a/5aDqnNX the new tactic i tried.

Edited by TheMagician16

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3 hours ago, TheMagician16 said:

For the Sweeker Keeper Attack role, the reason I chose this (even though I used Support or defend duty on him) is he doesn't come out for the ball. Over the top balls are a big problem for me because of slow defenders, and by changing the GK to attack duty I thought maybe he will stay higher up and possibly go for the ball a bit more because distance from ball and players going for it seems to be a weird thing in the ME. I also noticed occasionally since he has good passing we caught out a lot of teams off guard by him making precise passes to my wide players who then create a chance, since most teams park the bus against me, having these moments can mean win/lose/draw. But he usually passes to my backline as per the PI. If that is not how the Attack duty will work in reality, let me know.

I'd be more worried you have slow defenders when playing a risky mentality and I guess closing down more and pushing your line up?  SK can help but the bigger effect is on his distribution.  If he actually does what you want thats fine.  As @westy8chimp pointed out its a common misconception that "ball player" type roles are patient roles that retain possession but are actually more of a creator taking risks.

3 hours ago, TheMagician16 said:

For my Winger, he has cut inside PPM, which I've read somewhere works well to counter Wingers one dimensial running pattern. He has been doing really well and with through balls he is unstoppable due his 19 pace and 19 dribbling and just runs from people. I could use a different role here as this one is not 100% sure for me, but I made some tweaks to tactic yesterday and made my left back Inverted to help the middle and the winger provide with until he cuts inside, but again im not 100% if the winger is right role, so Im open to suggestion on what to use here, considering I have a world class wide player here.

Why not just use him as a IF-A if thats what you want him to do?  Or IF-S if you want him to collect it before running with it?

If his dominant foot is his right and he does decide to do what the role tells him he'll likely be crossing on his weaker foot which will reduce the consistency of his cross.

Not sure if the IWB adds much to your midfield, there's already multiple options and playmakers who the team will prefer to pass to if available.

3 hours ago, TheMagician16 said:

As for the possession.. i forgot to mention in OP that i rather have more passes than possession in the match stats. I've played game where I've had 60% possession but opponent making more passes than me.. does this mean my players just hold on to the ball? All my midfield except one maybe has tries killer passes, to unlock defenses. They have all 17+ in passing and vision those who have this trait.

This is likely a "lower tempo" thing, so you have more time hence FM possession.  If want lots of passes you don't want the players to take so long to do something with it BUT if they're all instructed to play risky passes often or like to do it because of traits you're more likely to lose possession quickly before they've passed it around to create space.  If you want number of passes you'll have to sacrifice some penetration/risk, the only way to improve both really is get players better at using the ball but you've likely got the best your going to get assuming you've got the Xavi types.

Remember even if you tell your team to Retain Possession that means they will be more selective with the risky passes, they won't stop them completely.  I think of it more as how selective I want them to be, do I want them to try to "unlock" defences early or after longer build up.

3 hours ago, TheMagician16 said:

I forgot to mention in OP that possession is more of a bonus for me. I only want to have it on my side of pitch. When we arrive closer to opponent I want to have runners that get picked out by passes into space, or provide short options until someone can find a space, and keeping possession in that area is not as important. Its kinda hard to explain :(

Sounds like you basically want "Play Out Of Defence" then once the balls with the forwards they can take the risks that there role dictates.

The problem with having patient build up but then expecting passes into space is you've let the opposition get back and organized so there's less space to play passes into space so first have to create space which requires some patience and selective passing first.

3 hours ago, TheMagician16 said:

i will post the new "tactic" when Im on my pc, but I feel i got a better balance this time perhaps.

Edit: https://imgur.com/a/5aDqnNX the new tactic i tried.

Bit hard to see and you've covered half of the instructions again.

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3 hours ago, TheMagician16 said:

For the Sweeker Keeper Attack role, the reason I chose this (even though I used Support or defend duty on him) is he doesn't come out for the ball. Over the top balls are a big problem for me because of slow defenders, and by changing the GK to attack duty I thought maybe he will stay higher up and possibly go for the ball a bit more because distance from ball and players going for it seems to be a weird thing in the ME. I also noticed occasionally since he has good passing we caught out a lot of teams off guard by him making precise passes to my wide players who then create a chance, since most teams park the bus against me, having these moments can mean win/lose/draw. But he usually passes to my backline as per the PI. If that is not how the Attack duty will work in reality, let me know.

If you have the SK doing the bits I've bolded... I'd be really interested to see the analysis - I haven't used them much because I'm pretty underwhelmed by the role. The few times I've tried, I didn't find the behaviour vastly different to a GK d, certainly not the positioning of the SK during any transitional play... and hardly any difference in reaction either if say a ball was pumped down field or a striker was played through. The only difference I've seen is that rather than playing short or aimless hoofs, they do seem to attempt more long range passes than a GK d.

Great if you are playing direct football... though, [a bit like my criticism of using attacking full backs in a formation that has wingers]... if you want to launch direct attacks from the back, is a GK the best person to do this? instead of a Lib, BPD, or REG/RPM/DLP

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1 hour ago, summatsupeer said:

I'd be more worried you have slow defenders when playing a risky mentality and I guess closing down more and pushing your line up?  SK can help but the bigger effect is on his distribution.  If he actually does what you want thats fine.  As @westy8chimp pointed out its a common misconception that "ball player" type roles are patient roles that retain possession but are actually more of a creator taking risks.

Why not just use him as a IF-A if thats what you want him to do?  Or IF-S if you want him to collect it before running with it?

If his dominant foot is his right and he does decide to do what the role tells him he'll likely be crossing on his weaker foot which will reduce the consistency of his cross.

Not sure if the IWB adds much to your midfield, there's already multiple options and playmakers who the team will prefer to pass to if available.

This is likely a "lower tempo" thing, so you have more time hence FM possession.  If want lots of passes you don't want the players to take so long to do something with it BUT if they're all instructed to play risky passes often or like to do it because of traits you're more likely to lose possession quickly before they've passed it around to create space.  If you want number of passes you'll have to sacrifice some penetration/risk, the only way to improve both really is get players better at using the ball but you've likely got the best your going to get assuming you've got the Xavi types.

Remember even if you tell your team to Retain Possession that means they will be more selective with the risky passes, they won't stop them completely.  I think of it more as how selective I want them to be, do I want them to try to "unlock" defences early or after longer build up.

Sounds like you basically want "Play Out Of Defence" then once the balls with the forwards they can take the risks that there role dictates.

The problem with having patient build up but then expecting passes into space is you've let the opposition get back and organized so there's less space to play passes into space so first have to create space which requires some patience and selective passing first.

Bit hard to see and you've covered half of the instructions again.

Thanks for the reply, i will check them again when Im back on my PC. Appreciate it.

 

The imgur link should have multiple images with one of them showing my team instructiom from TI screen.

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On 25/07/2018 at 09:26, summatsupeer said:

From what you've said I think a few roles and/or duties are out of place for that style:

  •  Winger isn't really a "possession" style of role with high dribbling, crossing and staying wide + high on attack duty so less available for passes to his feet.  Whilst you say this is intended, I find it very strange to have it as a main route to goal when your playing a patient possession style, letting opponents get back into defence before you then cross it.  Plus how good are your players in the box if they are expected to be good possession players?  Personally i'd leave the crossing to the FBs when there's no other options.

I agree that wingers with an attack duty aren't always great for possession tactics as they may cross or try to dribble too often, but many possession style tactics both in real life and on fm use wingers to provide width, the best example I can think of is Pep's City.

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17 minutes ago, wixxi said:

I agree that wingers with an attack duty aren't always great for possession tactics as they may cross or try to dribble too often, but many possession style tactics both in real life and on fm use wingers to provide width, the best example I can think of is Pep's City.

I wouldn't say city play with wingers, yes they start wide but there play is more varied.

Of course its not black and white what roles you should/shouldn't use just like there's different ways of creating a style and how specific it is.

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On 25/07/2018 at 03:10, TheMagician16 said:

Hello, I would appreciate some help. I am playing as man city in 2030 and I have all these years played with them and kept the same formation (4-2-3-1). I am trying to create a tactic kind of similar to Pep's man city currently (i've seen the pep replicate thread) but with some tweaks that match my philosophy. I want to play posession football and high scoring games. I want to build from the back and have the "do not lose the ball" mentality until I reach the final third. In the final third i want to utilise my players in midfield and flanks (which has amazing passing/technique/vision) to play passes that can open their defences, i.e through ball, one-two's, to my winger, who then crosses to my striker/runner from midfield. All in all, I think basically what I want is Pep's man city type of style or perhaps Napoli's (Sarri's) style where I can control the game and keep possession and open up defences with passes to flanks/space/behind defense to a runner who then either ideally is 1v1 with keeper or free on the flanks to get a low cross in.

 

Currently I am seeing a lot of situations where I can't keep posession properly (analysis says I lose the ball a lot in central areas also), strikers not clinical enough in certain games even tho that striker is 2x ballon'dor winner and basically Messi of this generation with 50+ goals each season, them crossing it high instead of low to my players in box, shooting from wide areas and long range etc.

 

Since ive used this tactic for almost 10+ years and won CL 5x, PL 6x, bunch of cups etc I've switched probably all the roles and duties at some point. For example my DM used to be a half back, anchorman, or even defensive mid. Central midfielders used to be CM (A/S), B2B, RPM etc. so I've tried all different combination through the years and even in one season I had 49 game unbeaten run (could not beat arsenals record which was also at 49 -.-) but without actually playing football the way I want. Maybe I saw that once or twice every 10 game where they would play like i want.

 

 

 

 

Manchester City_  Overview.png

 

Read this,

How to utilise Inverted Full Backs

https://www.thecoachingmanual.com/Content/4820819387613184
 

so,

2 IWB,

2 RMD,

2 CM-At,or AP-At for more roaming if i need it.Look like CM-At sitting more centre,some time i need it.But some time i need 2 AP to roaming more & more.

should be a F9,or some time DF to chase the ball more.

atleast a BPD at the back.

a HB if AI play 2 SC,DLP-D or ANC if AI play 1 SC.

20180728013637_1.thumb.jpg.053707f3831bcfa31f9d12325905ebe4.jpg

 

20180728013610_1.thumb.jpg.ce0751b8a34d6d06c47073827829596f.jpg

 

2 CM (or 2 AP) should push forward,so should be attacking role.
IWB came inside,hold position at midfield.
RMD open wide,& stay there,stay wide.


Untitled.thumb.jpg.64c3a9d6caffc18f6fd0d7262299599b.jpg

Edited by kpsia518

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16 hours ago, kpsia518 said:

 

Read this,

How to utilise Inverted Full Backs

https://www.thecoachingmanual.com/Content/4820819387613184
 

so,

2 IWB,

2 RMD,

2 CM-At,or AP-At for more roaming if i need it.Look like CM-At sitting more centre,some time i need it.But some time i need 2 AP to roaming more & more.

should be a F9,or some time DF to chase the ball more.

atleast a BPD at the back.

a HB if AI play 2 SC,DLP-D or ANC if AI play 1 SC.

20180728013637_1.thumb.jpg.053707f3831bcfa31f9d12325905ebe4.jpg

 

20180728013610_1.thumb.jpg.ce0751b8a34d6d06c47073827829596f.jpg

 

2 CM (or 2 AP) should push forward,so should be attacking role.
IWB came inside,hold position at midfield.
RMD open wide,& stay there,stay wide.


Untitled.thumb.jpg.64c3a9d6caffc18f6fd0d7262299599b.jpg

Can you post your tactic as an .fmf please ? 

Looks very interesting 

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39 minutes ago, fumaca09 said:

Can you post your tactic as an .fmf please ? 

Looks very interesting 

need more test,so far so good.

we have 2 option,4123 (DM) or 4141.
for now i use 4123,

i still need to do more test,what role should i use for CM role.

so far i tested ;

AP-At,more big area roaming,this is what i want,but normally AP didn't running beyond defensive line.
CM-At,look like less roaming,sitting center area most of the time.

MEZ-At ?

need more testing

 

theory for this tactic,

All teammate hold position,except the CM role.
IWB,F9,RMD, CD,BPD,HB = push up & hold position.
CM = freedom to roaming this area :

1666571469_CMFREEDOM.thumb.jpg.bf51cfc26

 

Edited by kpsia518

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1 hour ago, kpsia518 said:

need more test,so far so good.

we have 2 option,4123 (DM) or 4141.
for now i use 4123,

i still need to do more test,what role should i use for CM role.

so far i tested ;

AP-At,more big area roaming,this is what i want,but normally AP didn't running beyond defensive line.
CM-At,look like less roaming,sitting center area most of the time.

MEZ-At ?

need more testing

 

theory for this tactic,

All teammate hold position,except the CM role.
IWB,F9,RMD, CD,BPD,HB = push up & hold position.
CM = freedom to roaming this area :

1666571469_CMFREEDOM.thumb.jpg.bf51cfc26

 

Won’t the Mez-A just go wider rather than past the F9 ?

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9 hours ago, kpsia518 said:

need more test,so far so good.

we have 2 option,4123 (DM) or 4141.
for now i use 4123,

i still need to do more test,what role should i use for CM role.

so far i tested ;

AP-At,more big area roaming,this is what i want,but normally AP didn't running beyond defensive line.
CM-At,look like less roaming,sitting center area most of the time.

MEZ-At ?

need more testing

 

theory for this tactic,

All teammate hold position,except the CM role.
IWB,F9,RMD, CD,BPD,HB = push up & hold position.
CM = freedom to roaming this area :

1666571469_CMFREEDOM.thumb.jpg.bf51cfc26

 

Did you not add any PIs to the CM-A? Because it sounds like adding roam from position would fix your problem. If not then maybe try RPM?

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12 hours ago, wixxi said:

Did you not add any PIs to the CM-A? Because it sounds like adding roam from position would fix your problem. If not then maybe try RPM?


CM-A + roam from position,they still roaming more in the center of the pitch.

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Raumdeuter is officially a player who is cutting inside striker area? 

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47 minutes ago, Yoeri said:

Raumdeuter is officially a player who is cutting inside striker area? 

yes,but they only cut inside when they enter final third.

barcelona-entering-final-third-lateral-p

they will stay wide before that

 

 

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Cut inside with or without the ball? My experience of the RMD is that they go both outside and in when trying to find space (off the ball) sometimes they do both runs in the same build up probing space as the ball is with the midfield. On the ball again i found them act like a winger and a striker depending on where they recieve the pass.

I didnt particularly focus on the RMD but in my strikerless season 7 (found stickied at top of forum) i used an RMD and you will see examples of his off ball movement, goals and assists. Geovanni/yalcin and monaco filled the role so even if you just skip to screen shot showimg my squad sorted by emd of season goals and assists you will get an idea of the output

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I think it's important how the RMD is developing while your team is in possesion. Good that he cut inside in final third but is he important on the ball/off the ball? 

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Rmd off the ball is the most important part of the role. He works the channels beautifully, either finding space or upsetting opponent structure. 

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18 minutes ago, Yoeri said:

I think it's important how the RMD is developing while your team is in possesion. Good that he cut inside in final third but is he important on the ball/off the ball? 

i think RMD cut inside in both situation,with ball or off the ball?

base on how to setting the tactic & base on what AI doing

 

raumdeuter-treq.png?w=768&ssl=1

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You guys are making me look better to the role than before. When I have the right player for this role, i hope it will work out. 

Auba would be great cutting inside from the left i hope

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That makes sense why Henry (central striker at Arsenal) was a winger at Barca.

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7 minutes ago, Yoeri said:

You guys are making me look better to the role than before. When I have the right player for this role, i hope it will work out. 

Auba would be great cutting inside from the left i hope

remember this :

Raumdeuter = Poacher that sitting on the wing.
 

 

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