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21 hours ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:


Knowing what I'm doing is a strong term! :lol:

The honest answer is I am not 100% sure. I am working with the same interface as anyone else, and it's not clear.

The interface shows Retain Possession as a means of shortening passing without reducing tempo.

I have never observed either - Retain Possession or Pass into Space - change an individual player's Passing Risk.

This combination came about after adding Retain Possession to a more attacking system - after observing too many long shots - and later adding Pass into Space in an attempt to get players in behind.

I've always liked what I've seen in the match engine and the majority of goals come from a through ball either direct assist or key pass. In fact, high tempo, short passing, retain possession and passing into space produced the best football I have seen in a long time in a Napoli save.

Sorry I cannot give a more informed answer!

We (not necessarily you, but most guides on possession) might actually be looking at this the wrong way, in general, then.

1. It is thought that slowing down the tempo is accurate to real life possession orientated teams (let's say Pep), however, if you've ever heard or read Pep in interviews he despises the term tiki taka as it is interpreted as slow tempo, risk averse possession, or, "possession for the sake of possession". On the contrary he's a proponent of what he calls "courage on the ball", which is to mean confident in small spaces and brave in making more risky (but rewarding) passes between the lines. 

2. Playing at a slow tempo to maintain possession actually IRL makes it ineffective as the tempo is slow enough to allow the opposition to re-organise on the defensive transition (ie. you win the ball back at the half-way line, and instead of being direct and hitting the offensive transition with intensity and speed, you revert to possession for the sake of possession). This creates a never-ending cat and mouse situation with you trying to pass your way through two lines of defensive organisation. 

Thinking about it now, certain things make sense with what you said in light of the reality of offensive, expansive possession football with what Barca and City play.

a. Possession passing, but not slow passing. Incisive passing. (Maybe encourage more risky balls from CB's, DM's, CM's to break lines)
b. Either FB or W keeping width wide to create central space and create one-on-one's against opposition full-backs
c. Central forward dropping deep to link with three mids to form passing diamond and overload the centre of mid. Also pulls any markers away from box. If there's a way to use that to get the wingers to then hit the box with the marker drawn out, that would be more or less accurate to how Pep played with Messi at Barca. He believed in "arriving in the box" and not "occupying the box".

Again, these are all elements of what made possession football incisive and attacking for Pep and they're not easy to implement perfectly to FM, but I often get the impression that someone is always one right combination of things away from making a tactic that is equal in goalscoring efficacy as to possession stats.

 

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@Criminal Backpass I follow your logic, but I think you are focussing too much on tempo.

In the bold list Ozil has mentioned there... yes 'high tempo' but then 'retain possession' + 'short passing' (which reduces tempo)

Tempo, amongst other things, are then also affected by team mentality, individual mentality, role, PI and (in all it's complexities) shape.

The whole thing is a balancing act and trying to find a sweet spot. You may find the same result by going low tempo but overload. Or low tempo and more direct passing...

A lot of TC options (TI, PI, Role, Duty...) can be a case of choosing a style and then emphasising it ...or ... choosing a style and curtailing it

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Benfica has been one of my favourite saves for the pat few football managers.

I bought Alex Pinto back in my Ipswich save as i regretted selling him in my benfica save even though i had a very good replacement.

Highly recommend dantas and felix. 

 

 

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56 minutes ago, Criminal Backpass said:

We (not necessarily you, but most guides on possession) might actually be looking at this the wrong way, in general, then.

1. It is thought that slowing down the tempo is accurate to real life possession orientated teams (let's say Pep), however, if you've ever heard or read Pep in interviews he despises the term tiki taka as it is interpreted as slow tempo, risk averse possession, or, "possession for the sake of possession". On the contrary he's a proponent of what he calls "courage on the ball", which is to mean confident in small spaces and brave in making more risky (but rewarding) passes between the lines. 

2. Playing at a slow tempo to maintain possession actually IRL makes it ineffective as the tempo is slow enough to allow the opposition to re-organise on the defensive transition (ie. you win the ball back at the half-way line, and instead of being direct and hitting the offensive transition with intensity and speed, you revert to possession for the sake of possession). This creates a never-ending cat and mouse situation with you trying to pass your way through two lines of defensive organisation. 

Thinking about it now, certain things make sense with what you said in light of the reality of offensive, expansive possession football with what Barca and City play.

a. Possession passing, but not slow passing. Incisive passing. (Maybe encourage more risky balls from CB's, DM's, CM's to break lines)
b. Either FB or W keeping width wide to create central space and create one-on-one's against opposition full-backs
c. Central forward dropping deep to link with three mids to form passing diamond and overload the centre of mid. Also pulls any markers away from box. If there's a way to use that to get the wingers to then hit the box with the marker drawn out, that would be more or less accurate to how Pep played with Messi at Barca. He believed in "arriving in the box" and not "occupying the box".

Again, these are all elements of what made possession football incisive and attacking for Pep and they're not easy to implement perfectly to FM, but I often get the impression that someone is always one right combination of things away from making a tactic that is equal in goalscoring efficacy as to possession stats.

 

 

Precisely.

In my opinion there is a trade off. Tempo makes possession football more threatening - it's quicker so there is less time for the opponent to reorganise - but it's also more difficult to pull-off.

Players need a high degree of technical ability and intelligence. Would it be wise with a bunch of 16-18 year olds? Probably not. Could you train a bunch of 16-18 year olds to do it by the time they're 20-21? Let's see ;)

 

41 minutes ago, westy8chimp said:

@Criminal Backpass I follow your logic, but I think you are focussing too much on tempo.

In the bold list Ozil has mentioned there... yes 'high tempo' but then 'retain possession' + 'short passing' (which reduces tempo)

Tempo, amongst other things, are then also affected by team mentality, individual mentality, role, PI and (in all it's complexities) shape.

The whole thing is a balancing act and trying to find a sweet spot. You may find the same result by going low tempo but overload. Or low tempo and more direct passing...

A lot of TC options (TI, PI, Role, Duty...) can be a case of choosing a style and then emphasising it ...or ... choosing a style and curtailing it


Whoa, whoa, whoa! Easy there. How do you think Tempo is influenced by role, player instructions or shape? Sounds like that is over-complicating things massively.

In this instance Tempo isn't even influenced by Retain Possession - although you're right, it does slow things down in some Mentalities/Shapes, but not Control / Flexible.  Cannot think of an example at all where Shape, Roles or a Player Instruction would have any influence on Tempo.

Tempo is simply set by Team Mentality and then altered using Team Instructions - higher / lower tempo, short / direct passing and sometimes retain possession.

The last two lines are spot on though - the whole thing is a balancing act and choosing a style then emphasising it or balancing it sums up pretty much the every thread I have done! :)

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8 minutes ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

Whoa, whoa, whoa! Easy there. How do you think Tempo is influenced by role, player instructions or shape? Sounds like that is over-complicating things massively.

:D tempo is the whole pace of the game... If a bpd has increased passing range.. To me that is affecting tempo (you can only put so much backspin on a 60 yard pass to slow it down in the air... Its still quicker than 10 6 yard passes)...

Pi more direct passing... Dribble more (unless they dribble in slow mo) etc. 

Shape can bring players closer together or further apart... If the ball is travelling further its travelling quicker. 

-----

But the intent of my post was more importantly to keep in mind the whole balancing act. I dont think any ti/pi role or duty can be isolated and stated 'x does y'

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36 minutes ago, westy8chimp said:

:D tempo is the whole pace of the game... If a bpd has increased passing range.. To me that is affecting tempo (you can only put so much backspin on a 60 yard pass to slow it down in the air... Its still quicker than 10 6 yard passes)...

Pi more direct passing... Dribble more (unless they dribble in slow mo) etc. 

Shape can bring players closer together or further apart... If the ball is travelling further its travelling quicker. 

-----

But the intent of my post was more importantly to keep in mind the whole balancing act. I dont think any ti/pi role or duty can be isolated and stated 'x does y'


I can certainly see the link but for the sake of simplicity let's stick to the FM definition of tempo which is considered separately from passing directness.

Otherwise our decision making is paralysed by information overload, which - in my opinion - accounts for a fair amount of the confusion around tactics.

:thup:

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I do really believe that in FM 19 there should be a tactical sub-category for defensive and offensive transitions. I know CM played with it (wibble/wobble) but it was very early and difficult to implement back then. Managing the transitions, specifically, IRL, is a separate coaching imperative than the general overall approach itself. I would like to see this reflected in future editions of FM. 

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49 minutes ago, Criminal Backpass said:

I do really believe that in FM 19 there should be a tactical sub-category for defensive and offensive transitions. I know CM played with it (wibble/wobble) but it was very early and difficult to implement back then. Managing the transitions, specifically, IRL, is a separate coaching imperative than the general overall approach itself. I would like to see this reflected in future editions of FM. 


I'd argue there already is, within reason.

This is a 4-1-4-1 shape in defence and 2-3-4-1 in attack. There are numerous options to turn just about anything from one shape in defence to another shape entirely in attack. There is an ever decreasing list of real life tactics which cannot be replicated in Football Manager.

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3 hours ago, Criminal Backpass said:

1. It is thought that slowing down the tempo is accurate to real life possession orientated teams (let's say Pep), however, if you've ever heard or read Pep in interviews he despises the term tiki taka as it is interpreted as slow tempo, risk averse possession, or, "possession for the sake of possession". On the contrary he's a proponent of what he calls "courage on the ball", which is to mean confident in small spaces and brave in making more risky (but rewarding) passes between the lines. 

I get the assertion but to say passing with courage = passing at pace whilst making some sense isn't a given i.e. not always interlinked.  Its also easy (easier) for Pep to say as much with the best teams in the league.  Quick passing in possession style is a great ideal but not so achievable for your average team.

3 hours ago, Criminal Backpass said:

2. Playing at a slow tempo to maintain possession actually IRL makes it ineffective as the tempo is slow enough to allow the opposition to re-organise on the defensive transition (ie. you win the ball back at the half-way line, and instead of being direct and hitting the offensive transition with intensity and speed, you revert to possession for the sake of possession). This creates a never-ending cat and mouse situation with you trying to pass your way through two lines of defensive organisation. 

Regain possession and retain possession often go hand in hand,  You wanna be a possession philosophy it's both with and without ball.  Separate them and its not a pure possession philosophy.  If you're starting to talk high pressing and fast transition that's gegenpressing.  It can work but its a hybrid between possession/counterattack and also an exhausting game of turnovers.

Edited by Robson 07

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yet another brilliant read. Your threads have inspired countless FM ‘projects’ for me. I can’t wait to read more when written. Out of curiosity, do you feel the need to adjust anything in this tactic to different opponents? I.e. to switch the DLP(D) to a DM(D) when facing 4-2-3-1?  Or anything else?

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12 hours ago, leesmith90 said:

yet another brilliant read. Your threads have inspired countless FM ‘projects’ for me. I can’t wait to read more when written. Out of curiosity, do you feel the need to adjust anything in this tactic to different opponents? I.e. to switch the DLP(D) to a DM(D) when facing 4-2-3-1?  Or anything else?


Thank you for the kind words :thup:

Not at this moment. As you can see the system handles pressure very well so I don't mind the opposition having players close to my Deep-Lying Playmaker. Further improving anticipation and movement should help even more.

That said, I am potentially looking at an alternative back-3 shape but it's early days yet.

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OK, quick mid-season update.

 

Player Development

 

UpNXXgo.png

 

Things are already moving in the right direction, with visible improvements particularly in football intelligence.

  • Anticipation
  • Decisions
  • Vision
  • Movement
  • Positioning
  • Concentration

The major improvements - however - are in Determination & Professionalism so we have a platform to build.

At this moment, I am not inclined to make any particular changes to training. We are moving in the right direction and I will see where we stand at the end of the season.

 

First Team
 

Ruthlessly efficient would probably describe the first half of our season.

 

Sown3Yy.png

 

Hardly setting the world alight but having a solid defensive structure makes life so much easier.

 

C91x4Id.png

 

Easily our best results have come in Europe.

 

EtAVSZv.png

 

A 3-3 draw with Leipzig once already qualified distorts the defensive performance slightly but the counter attack worked well.

 

lg64yEt.png

 

Highlight being sitting deep and letting Napoli come forward and then hitting the space in behind.

 

N0pG2Lq.png

 

Development Team

 

Only a handful of cup matches so far. In Portugal most come around January so the first team get a nice rest and the youngsters get an opportunity.

Highlight so far is beating Braga with such a young side.

 

pj4bVlQ.png

 

We've now broken records for youngest appearance & youngest goalscorer already.

 

dyTJ5bN.png

 

Current Thoughts

  • Erring towards bypassing the B Team and moving most of this team into the first team squad next season.
  • Progress retraining new positions - particularly Pinto, Dantas, Cesinha and Luis - is disappointingly slow.

 

I'll leave you with a couple more shots of the attacking shape.

 

NXS2Ca9.png

 

qaS2yPs.png

 

Looks like it could be a defensive 4-1-3-2 until you realise the ball is going the other direction! :lol:

 

Edited by Ö-zil to the Arsenal!

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1 hour ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:


Thank you for the kind words :thup:

Not at this moment. As you can see the system handles pressure very well so I don't mind the opposition having players close to my Deep-Lying Playmaker. Further improving anticipation and movement should help even more.

That said, I am potentially looking at an alternative back-3 shape but it's early days yet.

I suppose the quality of the player helps greatly too. One of the best DLP's I have ever used, probably mainly due to his intelligence, is Julian Weigl from Dortmund.  Although his work rate (12) and vision aren't amazing (13), his attributes such as Anticipation (17), Composure (18), Concentration (16), Decisions (18), Positioning (15) and Teamwork (19) seem to make him the ultimate holding midfielder in most roles. You could say hes the next Busquets...

I'm currently experimenting with a back-3 formation as I tend to struggle against the 4-4-2 and its variants. I'm currently using Everton (focusing on developing the academy players to the first team, similar to your SLB save) and my bogey team seems to be Bournemouth due to them always playing a fast paced, counter attacking 4-4-2! I'm not currently on my laptop that has FM installed so i cant post a screenshot but, I think my current formation is something along these lines:

 

                     SK (s)

    CD (d)   CD (c)   CD (d)

WB (a)  DLP (d)  DM (s)  WB (a)

                     CM (a)

               F9 (s)   CF (s)

 

If I'm facing a team that try and camp in my half, i switch my 2 outer CB's to BPD's to try and play a quicker, more direct pass forward to bypass their attackers and remove any playmaker roles.

Off the top of my head I know my team instructions are similar to your Cruyff thread with a couple of tweaks so suit my players. I also only use flexible or fluid at the minute due to my players not quite being intelligent/rounded enough. When playing teams like Bournemouth who look to counter I tend to drop my back line too.

I do tend to struggle to find 'complete' players to play these kind of systems (any suggestions very welcome!) but my gem for Everton has been Kristoffer Ajer (who you know well) who is an absolute monster in the DM (s) role or as a CB.

As for retraining positions, I do think they take a little longer this year. Though if I am trying to retrain a sub player to a new position, I make them available for the U-23's (played in the desired position) and try to use them as a sub in first team games as much as possible, as it wont really matter if their condition is only 85% if they are only playing 20-30 mins. Its working so far!

Edited by leesmith90

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1 hour ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

OK, quick mid-season update.

 

Player Development

 

UpNXXgo.png

 

Things are already moving in the right direction, with visible improvements particularly in football intelligence.

  • Anticipation
  • Decisions
  • Vision
  • Movement
  • Positioning
  • Concentration

The major improvements - however - are in Determination & Professionalism so we have a platform to build.

At this moment, I am not inclined to make any particular changes to training. We are moving in the right direction and I will see where we stand at the end of the season.

 

First Team
 

Ruthlessly efficient would probably describe the first half of our season.

 

Sown3Yy.png

 

Hardly setting the world alight but having a solid defensive structure makes life so much easier.

 

C91x4Id.png

 

Easily our best results have come in Europe.

 

EtAVSZv.png

 

A 3-3 draw with Leipzig once already qualified distorts the defensive performance slightly but the counter attack worked well.

 

lg64yEt.png

 

Highlight being sitting deep and letting Napoli come forward and then hitting the space in behind.

 

N0pG2Lq.png

 

Development Team

 

Only a handful of cup matches so far. In Portugal most come around January so the first team get a nice rest and the youngsters get an opportunity.

Highlight so far is beating Braga with such a young side.

 

pj4bVlQ.png

 

We've now broken records for youngest appearance & youngest goalscorer already.

 

dyTJ5bN.png

 

Current Thoughts

  • Erring towards bypassing the B Team and moving most of this team into the first team squad next season.
  • Progress retraining new positions - particularly Pinto, Dantas, Cesinha and Luis - is disappointingly slow.

 

I'll leave you with a couple more shots of the attacking shape.

 

NXS2Ca9.png

 

qaS2yPs.png

 

Looks like it could be a defensive 4-1-3-2 until you realise the ball is going the other direction! :lol:

 

When you look at this picture it looks like the best version of Pep's tactic in City.Wingers are giving with, side backs going inwards and DC's are ball playing. End what was the most impressive for me, is positional play. With CM's movement outside they are in same line or with side backs (who comes inside) or with CD's. And it is the best example of having only two players in same line (Juego posicion). My question is: Have you did that on purpose (replicating Pep's tactic) or not?

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49 minutes ago, andymankc said:

When you look at this picture it looks like the best version of Pep's tactic in City.Wingers are giving with, side backs going inwards and DC's are ball playing. End what was the most impressive for me, is positional play. With CM's movement outside they are in same line or with side backs (who comes inside) or with CD's. And it is the best example of having only two players in same line (Juego posicion). My question is: Have you did that on purpose (replicating Pep's tactic) or not?


It's certainly a style I enjoy in real life football and have taken inspiration from, although not necessarily a 100% replication.

The style has evolved over a number of years and it's something I enjoy watching.

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This looks fun, now I have a purpose for my Leipzig save. They don’t have the facilities (or players/yts) Benfica do, but they have a hell of a lot of affiliates. The goal is to dethrone Bayern and win the UCL with a core of homegrown players. And the squad DNA is inspired by Sarrismo. I will follow with intrest, it might be helpful

And for those intrested in the tactic, here’s it is. TI’s are higher tempo, balanced width, much higher D line, much more closing down, Prevent short GK distribution, play out of defence, pass into space, retain possesion, be more expressive, look for overlap, work ball into box and roam from positions on an attacking mentality and fluid team shape. In other words, we’d rather win 4-3 than draw 0-0

DB54C775-ABF4-465D-8CC1-46D59707B79E.jpeg

Edited by SmileFaceGamer

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Everywhere on this forum I see **** like 'yeah, you have to add atleast two or three attacking duties in your starting team'.

My question is how do you set-up no attacking duty and pull up this magnificent results. I respect that and wonder why you did that.

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5 minutes ago, Yoeri said:

Everywhere on this forum I see **** like 'yeah, you have to add atleast two or three attacking duties in your starting team'.

My question is how do you set-up no attacking duty and pull up this magnificent results. I respect that and wonder why you did that.


Read the post! :lol: Specifically Introduction to Possession, it's all there..

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On 24/07/2018 at 19:14, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:


Knowing what I'm doing is a strong term! :lol:

The honest answer is I am not 100% sure. I am working with the same interface as anyone else, and it's not clear.

The interface shows Retain Possession as a means of shortening passing without reducing tempo.

I have never observed either - Retain Possession or Pass into Space - change an individual player's Passing Risk.

This combination came about after adding Retain Possession to a more attacking system - after observing too many long shots - and later adding Pass into Space in an attempt to get players in behind.

I've always liked what I've seen in the match engine and the majority of goals come from a through ball either direct assist or key pass. In fact, high tempo, short passing, retain possession and passing into space produced the best football I have seen in a long time in a Napoli save.

Sorry I cannot give a more informed answer!

I always enjoy asking people why they use both to see what they think happens, because i'm pretty sure 99% of us wouldn't notice the difference between having both selected or both not selected. More is always better right :brock: I'm surprised you don't see the effect of "Retain" or "Space" instructions on the players passing, though it would heavily depend on the tactic, passing options they have and traits.

AFAIK Retain Possession doesn't make players Shoot Less Often, though could be a side effect of not playing through a player who then isolates himself so just shoots?

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Transfer & Tutoring Update (January 2018)

 

My scouts unearthed a potential answer to the left-sided Central Defender issue.

 

pGOspKF.png

 

6'1" very well rounded, left-footed holding midfielder from Gremio. Certainly worth a pop so snapped him up straight away for a couple of million in a structured deal.

Tutored immediately by Leonardo Jara (Determination of 18 & Professional) who joined on a free along with Diego Arias (Determination of 18 & Professional) from Atletico Nacional and Mikel Rico from Bilbao for a combined £500k.

The first tutoring cycle also came to an end in January so players have been reassigned appropriately.

At this moment players essentially fall into one of 3 categories.

  1. Successfully tutored -> Start Learning Traits, unless exceptional Tutor is available
    • Gedson Fernandes (Determination 20, Professional)
      • Learn Plays One-Twos
    • Grimaldo (Determination 18, Professional)
      • None
    • Pinto (Determination 19 & Perfectionist)
      • N/A in B Team
    • Ruben Dias (Determination 18 & Professional)
      • Tutored by Victor Cuesta (Determination 20 & Professional)
  2. Partially tutored -> Tutored again by top-level tutors
    • Xadas (Determination 14 & Professional)
      • Tutored by Diego Arias (Determination 18 & Professional)
    • Dantas (Determination 12 & Professional)
      • Tutored by Mikel Rico (Determination 17 & Professional)
    • Florentino Luis (Determination 16 & Resolute)
      • Tutored by Gambadori (Determination 18 & Professional)
    • João Felipe (Determination 17 & Resolute)
      • No available tutor
    • João Felix (Determination 12 & Spirited)
      • Tutored by Katchana (Determination 17 & Model Professional)
    • Embalo (Determination 12 & Fairly Professional)
      • Tutored by Andres Guerrieri (Determination 20 & Professional)
    • Pedro Alvaro (Determination 15 & Professional)
      • Tutored by Axel Müller (Determination 20 & Model Citizen)
  3. Untutored -> Tutored by any player with positive traits or personality
    • Batista tutored by Fejsa (Resolute)
    • Cesinha tutored by Samaras (Driven)
    • Csoboth tutored by Rafa (Fairly Professional)
    • Pinheiro tutored by Luisão (Leader)
    • Nuno Santos tutored by Salvio (Spirited)
    • Trincão tutored by Jonas (Spirited & Comes Deep, 1-2s, Places Shots)
    • Ze Gomes tutored by Jimenez (Resolute & Moves into Channels)

I find that tutoring players to a mid-point and then getting them tutored by a top-class tutor increases the success rate dramatically.

 

Potential Signing

 

Bu0Iwkd.png

 

Scouts are recommending me Guido Pizarro and he looks interesting.

Plays everything from Libero through to Midfield. Would cost £38m but open up a lot of doors tactically.

Edited by Ö-zil to the Arsenal!

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The question is, who did you sign to do the tutoring... I’m definatly not going to sign them all and use them to tutor my wonderkids at Leipzig, all of whom were very cheap (Maresic £3 mill, Alphonse Davis £2 mill (coming in jan 2019), Xadas £600K, Bobsin £2 mill (coming in jan) and couple of midfield gems at the club from the get go).

I know it sounds like a not so gentle brag... you’d be right. But for those doing a save, these are all pretty accessible signings

Edited by SmileFaceGamer

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16 hours ago, coach vahid said:

Hi...Just one question.

Why you started with the 4231 and 4411 structured and no with your possession 4141 ? 


I like the solidarity of two banks of four when counter attacking. The 4-2-3-1 is more balanced but the double pivot is reasonably effective dominating the play.

In possession systems, I like a 1-2 midfield - DM-MC-MC - combination. The playmaker deepest so he has two passing options ahead of him.

 

13 hours ago, SmileFaceGamer said:

The question is, who did you sign to do the tutoring... I’m definatly not going to sign them all and use them to tutor my wonderkids at Leipzig, all of whom were very cheap (Maresic £3 mill, Alphonse Davis £2 mill (coming in jan 2019), Xadas £600K, Bobsin £2 mill (coming in jan) and couple of midfield gems at the club from the get go).

I know it sounds like a not so gentle brag... you’d be right. But for those doing a save, these are all pretty accessible signings


All the tutors are detailed in the post. I've brought in quite a few who are essentially acting as auxiliary coaches :thup:

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RJJe298.png

 

The cup run came to an end in the final. The young players drew - and then won on penalties - against Sporting in the semi-final and then narrowly defeated by Porto.

Both fielded reasonably strong squads so this adds further weight to the inclination to bypass the B Team and start giving opportunities in the first team squad next season.

Means a major reshuffle of the squad.

 

DxQ8P8F.png

 

Fernandes, Xadas and Grimaldo have been replaced in the starting line-up for cup games as they have now established themselves in the league and benefit from the break, opening further opportunity for Luis, Cesinha and Batista. Victor Bobsin also comes in for Cuesta.

One observation - retraining position is happening very, very slowly across the board.

I am wondering if this is down to the rest of the development going on - tutoring and significant attribute development - and perhaps there is some balancing mechanism at play. Pure speculation but I'll be keeping an eye on it.

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Champions League First Knockout Round vs Real Madrid

 

01h0dmF.png

 

Real Madrid - flying high at the top of La Liga - represents the biggest challenge of our season to date.

 

pdf2Hjl.png

 

Real Madrid play a simple 4-3-3 with a destroyer and two creators in midfield and - interestingly - leaving out Benzema to play Ronaldo up front supported by Bale and Isco.

 

wE7XtDo.png

 

By this point Krovinovic and Dias have cemented themselves as first choice in their respective positions and we setup to counter-attack.

 

QvzcRXm.png

 

Majority of the game is spent camped deep in our own half with two compact banks of four keeping Real Madrid at bay.

  • Bale and Isco both moved inside a lot, dragging our fullbacks all over but notice how Zivkovic drops back to retain shape.

 

ZoQCQmi.png

 

At 0-0 in the 55th minute Cervi was forced off with an injury so replaced my Jimenez as a Defensive Forward in a 4-4-2.

The score remained the same until the 90th minute, when Varane won a header from our goalkick and found Benzema as our defence was left exposed with the midfield screen forward.

 

1z67UB5.png

 

Jardel came across and managed to eliminate the danger.

 

8qHlT5O.png

 

The ball found Raul Jimenez, who launched the incisive counter attack.

 

kQfG8Gn.png

 

Unable to beat Ramos for pace, Jonas holds the ball up and finds an attacking run from Krovinovic, with Jimenez charging into a potential goalscoring position.

 

JxCFmjY.png

 

Jonas' pass takes Ramos out of the equation and the pace of Zivkovic and Salvio create a 4v3 overload.

 

TZUwKhu.png

 

Jimenez then cooly places the shot into the corner. 1-0 in the 91st minute.

 

VtXUKul.png

 

Result of the season, so far.

 

uQDbPbC.png

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The most overrated academy ever, SCP too. FC Porto won 2 youth champions league the B team won the international champions cup, won twice their league. All this fuss with benfica formation is all because Mendes he dictates who and what gets visibility. I feel sad for SI not paying attention to the monopolization of the media in other coountries, doesn't make sense to publish a league with so many flaws. Make FM restricted to Great britain please....

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21 minutes ago, Mawka said:

The most overrated academy ever, SCP too. FC Porto won 2 youth champions league the B team won the international champions cup, won twice their league. All this fuss with benfica formation is all because Mendes he dictates who and what gets visibility. I feel sad for SI not paying attention to the monopolization of the media in other coountries, doesn't make sense to publish a league with so many flaws. Make FM restricted to Great britain please....

Brexit means brexit

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1 hour ago, Mawka said:

The most overrated academy ever, SCP too. FC Porto won 2 youth champions league the B team won the international champions cup, won twice their league. All this fuss with benfica formation is all because Mendes he dictates who and what gets visibility. I feel sad for SI not paying attention to the monopolization of the media in other coountries, doesn't make sense to publish a league with so many flaws. Make FM restricted to Great britain please....

:lol:

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Do you analyse while playing the game or do you do the analyse after the match? 

And second: do you analyse in 2D only or do you also play in 2D? Hope to hear from u soon :) 

Your analysis are looking fenomenal! Love them

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2 hours ago, Mawka said:

The most overrated academy ever, SCP too. FC Porto won 2 youth champions league the B team won the international champions cup, won twice their league. All this fuss with benfica formation is all because Mendes he dictates who and what gets visibility. I feel sad for SI not paying attention to the monopolization of the media in other coountries, doesn't make sense to publish a league with so many flaws. Make FM restricted to Great britain please....

You do realize that this is the tactics forum and not the football politics forum?

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37 minutes ago, Yoeri said:

Do you analyse while playing the game or do you do the analyse after the match? 

And second: do you analyse in 2D only or do you also play in 2D? Hope to hear from u soon :) 

Your analysis are looking fenomenal! Love them

 

Thank you! :thup:

I write the analysis after the match but do the analysis whilst playing. Otherwise certain decisions - in the latest instance - bringing in Jimenez and switching to a 4-4-2 - wouldn't work!

Big games and initial games when I'm implementing a new tactic I'll spend a lot of time watching, but less so as the season goes on. For example since the winter break we went on a nice winning streak which has - almost - tied up the league title. In this instance I still keep an eye but really I am going through the motions and focusing on the Champions League, keeping players fit and looking at players coming through.

Always 2D, yea. Old habits die hard! :lol:

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11 minutes ago, HAMMERIRON said:

You do realize that this is the tactics forum and not the football politics forum?

Yes and i see this as a fantasy youth footballers development thread, not an emulation of a real and talented youth academy development! The researchers in Portugal are doing a bad job for years and SI doesn't care.

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love the thread ozil, comes close to my all time favourite 3-4-3 thread.

you mention promoting players straight from the youth side to the senior squad and you have a few players (Fernandes, Xadas and Grimaldo ) who are now part of the first team. how do you decide who to "cull". i often find with a strong side like yours once i get 2/3 years in i have a world class first 11 with an average age of around 23 but also wonderkids with an average age of 19 ish. 

its a problem i often find and i end up loaning the younger players to top european clubs rather than them only playing a handfull of games.

 

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2018 Youth Intake

 

Z0bCWi0.png

 

J75pbS5.png

 

Promising Youth Intake for 2018, taking a more detailed look at the players now and will update shortly on who makes the cut.

 

jfx2xGE.png

 

Also finished the job and knocked Real Madrid out of the Champions League.

An early goal from a set piece took some of the sting out of the tie and the second - again on the counter - killed it off.

 

 

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6 hours ago, Mawka said:

Yes and i see this as a fantasy youth footballers development thread, not an emulation of a real and talented youth academy development! The researchers in Portugal are doing a bad job for years and SI doesn't care.

You could just apply to be one yourself or at the very least open up a thread in the bugs forum

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@Ö-zil to the Arsenal!

what role should i use on this CM.

CM pushing forward :
22222.thumb.jpg.c766737238ccfea8348395699ef28af2.jpg

CM freedom roamming in this area.

1666571469_CMFREEDOM.thumb.jpg.bf51cfc263bbda7eec070c2d41871ab0.jpg

2 vs 1 in wide area.

80948341_21wide.thumb.jpg.7f47348c113d299ae0d0d7e825b8bf4b.jpg


The SC track 2 def to him,winger staying wide.

235227754_wingsw.thumb.jpg.ed30be47e4839ca2db3a8cbf15d51590.jpg

CM freedom roamming in this area.CM Running beyond the defensive line.

215961389_CMRBDL.thumb.png.d28c74e457a4318264dbe4d1cca97901.png


so what role should i use on this CM ?
AP-At is best fit,but AP-At didn't run beyond the defensive line.
CM-At sitting more centre,Don't know he run beyond the defensive line or not.

or should i use AM-at ?
 

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3 hours ago, kpsia518 said:

@Ö-zil to the Arsenal!

what role should i use on this CM.

CM pushing forward :
22222.thumb.jpg.c766737238ccfea8348395699ef28af2.jpg

CM freedom roamming in this area.

1666571469_CMFREEDOM.thumb.jpg.bf51cfc263bbda7eec070c2d41871ab0.jpg

2 vs 1 in wide area.

80948341_21wide.thumb.jpg.7f47348c113d299ae0d0d7e825b8bf4b.jpg


The SC track 2 def to him,winger staying wide.

235227754_wingsw.thumb.jpg.ed30be47e4839ca2db3a8cbf15d51590.jpg

CM freedom roamming in this area.CM Running beyond the defensive line.

215961389_CMRBDL.thumb.png.d28c74e457a4318264dbe4d1cca97901.png


so what role should i use on this CM ?
AP-At is best fit,but AP-At didn't run beyond the defensive line.
CM-At sitting more centre,Don't know he run beyond the defensive line or not.

or should i use AM-at ?
 

Not Ozil but maybe Mezzala?

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13 minutes ago, Jean0987654321 said:

Not Ozil but maybe Mezzala?

i think Mezzala didn't roaming that far or big area.
AP do that roaming,AP-At is best fit.
But AP-At didn't running beyond the defensive line.That the problem

& i do a test on CM-At,they just sit center area more.Not that roaming that far

 

Maybe only some AM role,like AM-At,SS

Edited by kpsia518

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9 minutes ago, kpsia518 said:

i think Mezzala didn't roaming that far or big area.
AP do that roaming,AP-At is best fit.

But AP-At didn't running beyond the defensive line.That the problem
 

Maybe only some AM role,like AM-At,SS

You need the watch the game in full or comprehensive to make sure. I've made THAT movement with Mezzalas. It can make that movement as long as no one is in his way (so no AMs).

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2 minutes ago, Jean0987654321 said:

You need the watch the game in full or comprehensive to make sure. I've made THAT movement with Mezzalas. It can make that movement as long as no one is in his way (so no AMs).

comprehensive,yes i did.

may be i do more test on Mezzala.But i not sure is Mezzalas roaming this big  all the green area :

1666571469_CMFREEDOM.thumb.jpg.bf51cfc26

 

so far i know AP did.

 

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This is great for two reasons 1) I really like your content 2) I just started a similar project with Estudiantes with the long term goal of producing a player for the Argentina national team & (hopefully) a Ballon D'or winner. 

 

Will follow with great interest! Good luck

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20 minutes ago, kpsia518 said:

comprehensive,yes i did.

may be i do more test on Mezzala.But i not sure is Mezzalas roaming this big  all the green area :

1666571469_CMFREEDOM.thumb.jpg.bf51cfc26

 

so far i know AP did.

 

Check the attributes and the PPMs of the players you are using for the role. Off the Ball and Anticipation are bread and butter for such a demanding role along with Pace and Stamina

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Cracking stuff. Curious how you've managed to keep the guys you've signed to be tutors happy with little or no playing time?

 

Also: "I find that tutoring players to a mid-point and then getting them tutored by a top-class tutor increases the success rate dramatically."

 

Do you mean that you stop their tutoring if it's not already completed?

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5 hours ago, kpsia518 said:

@Ö-zil to the Arsenal!

what role should i use on this CM.

CM pushing forward :
22222.thumb.jpg.c766737238ccfea8348395699ef28af2.jpg

CM freedom roamming in this area.

1666571469_CMFREEDOM.thumb.jpg.bf51cfc263bbda7eec070c2d41871ab0.jpg

2 vs 1 in wide area.

80948341_21wide.thumb.jpg.7f47348c113d299ae0d0d7e825b8bf4b.jpg


The SC track 2 def to him,winger staying wide.

235227754_wingsw.thumb.jpg.ed30be47e4839ca2db3a8cbf15d51590.jpg

CM freedom roamming in this area.CM Running beyond the defensive line.

215961389_CMRBDL.thumb.png.d28c74e457a4318264dbe4d1cca97901.png


so what role should i use on this CM ?
AP-At is best fit,but AP-At didn't run beyond the defensive line.
CM-At sitting more centre,Don't know he run beyond the defensive line or not.

or should i use AM-at ?
 


The simple answer is to fire up a game and start experimenting.

My interpretation is to defend as a 4-1-4-1:

 

j3aOH46.png

 

..and to attack as a 2-3-4-1:

 

zsWRdcF.png

 

Here is another example of an attack shape:

 

NXS2Ca9.png

 

With the midfielders breaking forward to attack the space.

 

qaS2yPs.png

 

..and it's as simple as a Central Midfielder (Support) with Get Forward More and Move Into Channels:

 

wcGuIBN.png

 

Adding run wide with ball might get you the combination with the winger, but personally I want them both in that '10' space behind the striker.

As with anything there will be many different ways to approach it so experiment and find something that works for you.

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On 24/07/2018 at 18:13, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

Introduction to Possession Football = Updated (Post 3)
 


Thank you very much. Appreciate that feedback as simplicity is exactly what I'm going for!


 


100% depends on the needs of the players. In this instance I would be expecting to focus on Tactical training for some time.


 


Yep, that's it :thup:


 


Excellent question. The simple answer is that I do not believe the recommended duties - or many of the in-game recommendations for that matter - are valid.

  1. The player role recommendations depend on accepting the game's criteria of the attributes required for a position.

Some roles are simply too broad - Central Midfielder for example, is a blank canvas.

In my system, my Central Midfielder looks like this.

 

wcGuIBN.png

 

We could remove those instructions and tell him to Hold Position and it'd be a totally different skill set. How can one set of attributes account for this?

My players are rarely recommended core roles - Central Midfielder, Defensive Midfielder, Attacking Midfielder etc - instead it's always some kind of playmaker or another of the label type roles.

I suspect it's to help the AI manager assign player roles based on attributes.

The player role system could do with a tidy, in my opinion. I've lost track of the number of playmaker options and non-mutually exclusive roles.

Case in point - apparently Pirlo isn't a great fit for the Deep-lying Playmaker (or Regista) role! :lol:


 


Simply hadn't thought of it ;)


 


Fantastic! What's your starting team now then? Interesting to see others playing similar games.

..and, yes. I've got Batista playing in my U19s. Looks like a talented player!

Do you have other PI's for each position? Mind sharing them for the counter and possession tactics?

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1 hour ago, craiigman said:

Cracking stuff. Curious how you've managed to keep the guys you've signed to be tutors happy with little or no playing time?

 

Also: "I find that tutoring players to a mid-point and then getting them tutored by a top-class tutor increases the success rate dramatically."

 

Do you mean that you stop their tutoring if it's not already completed?


My apologies, that's not clear.

I mean allowing for the fact that you're - probably! - not going to turn someone from 10 Determination and Balanced personality into a Model Citizen with 20 for Determination in one tutoring.

Let me give an example.

If I've got a 16 year old with 10 for Determination and a Balanced personality and a Model Citizen available with 20 in Determination.

It is reasonably unlikely that Determination would increase from 10 to 20 in the approximately 6-month period, not to mention Professionalism and all the other hidden attributes and this would leave you in a situation where you are unable to immediately use the same Model Citizen tutor again to finish the job.

Instead, if I choose a tutor with - say - 15 in Determination and Spirited - or any positive personality, Fairly Professional, Resolute, etc - then this is more achievable.

The youngster can then be tutored by the Model Citizen with a more realistic chance of success.

You could even go around a 3rd time, almost totally mitigating the risk of a failed tutoring.

Keeping players happy isn't too difficult with Professional players. They're in my B Team so the B Team Manager deals with it and it looks like they're picking up the odd game.

Good luck :thup:

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10 minutes ago, craiigman said:

Do you have other PI's for each position? Mind sharing them for the counter and possession tactics?

Very limited PIs.

  • Goalkeeper distribution - to centre backs in possession system & to flanks in counter.
  • Striker moves into channels.
  • Wingers get forward more.
  • DM(D) and DLP(D) close down less.

:thup:

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I always like how often @Ö-zil to the Arsenal! uses the "simple" roles and show how they position on the pitch.  To many managers assume what role to use and don't watch how they play, especially specialized and playmaker roles.

Another thing is traits and using the right player for what you want.  Using a player with traits like gets forward often, gets into opposition area and moves into channels would make the basic CM play similar to O-zils PI modified ones but then you have less tactical flexibility.  If the player has different traits like tries risky passes or shoots from distance etc then they'll play that role differently, can be useful to have different options if your starter isn't having a good game.

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Here's the decisive counter-attack that killed Real Madrid's Champions League hopes.

Two solid, compact & narrow banks of four.

 

9dFLSno.png

 

Find Jimenez as an outlet after winning possession who is immediately in a 2v2 against the Real Madrid defence and plays a long-range one-two with Jonas whilst the rest of the sprint relay team bomb forward.

 

wytRODt.png

 

2-0. Game over.

 

9J7Y9g4.png

 

Simple yet devastating counter-attacking football.

 

jfx2xGE.png

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