Caixa Futebol Academy: Youth Development & Adapting Tactics

[skyline72]

7 minutes ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

Yes I do, but it's important to note that I often feel that way about my teams at the time.

[skyline72]

I been reading and rereading and rereading this thread over and over again this past few weeks and I always learn something new every single time. 

My game crash recently, even the backup couldnt load. Had to start a new save. 

To be honest, I had shamelessly copied @Ö-zil to the Arsenal! system well knowingly that my team(Manchester United) not likely to fit the system at all. Tried to chop and change the players but there is only so much you and buy or sell during the start of the save. Went on a goalless streak during Sep to Oct/Nov, eventually got knocked out of Champions League(FM18) with Real Madrid, Hoffenheim, Dynamo Kiev. I see my team will get 2nd to proceed to knockout round at least. 

After the knockout got me thinking again, how is it that @Ö-zil to the Arsenal! can get his team to be invincible but I cant even score a goal? I went back to this first page of this superb thread yet again. 

Its about finding a system that your players fit in and not forcing a system onto them. Just like how Zlatan couldnt fit in at Barcelona back then. I can always take 3 or 4 transfer windows to buy the superstars to fit the total football system but it will get boring in the end. United's youth arent that great to be honest. Maybe I can be the next Sir Alex Ferguson or Johan Cruyff to revolutionise the way United play and their youth academy. 

It will be a long project. Hopefully I will not get sack by then....

11 Zidanes or 11 Pavons?

[craigcwwe]

This is the thread that just keeps on giving. 

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

17 hours ago, skyline72 said:

I been reading and rereading and rereading this thread over and over again this past few weeks and I always learn something new every single time. 

My game crash recently, even the backup couldnt load. Had to start a new save. 

To be honest, I had shamelessly copied @Ö-zil to the Arsenal! system well knowingly that my team(Manchester United) not likely to fit the system at all. Tried to chop and change the players but there is only so much you and buy or sell during the start of the save. Went on a goalless streak during Sep to Oct/Nov, eventually got knocked out of Champions League(FM18) with Real Madrid, Hoffenheim, Dynamo Kiev. I see my team will get 2nd to proceed to knockout round at least. 

After the knockout got me thinking again, how is it that @Ö-zil to the Arsenal! can get his team to be invincible but I cant even score a goal? I went back to this first page of this superb thread yet again. 

Its about finding a system that your players fit in and not forcing a system onto them. Just like how Zlatan couldnt fit in at Barcelona back then. I can always take 3 or 4 transfer windows to buy the superstars to fit the total football system but it will get boring in the end. United's youth arent that great to be honest. Maybe I can be the next Sir Alex Ferguson or Johan Cruyff to revolutionise the way United play and their youth academy. 

It will be a long project. Hopefully I will not get sack by then....

11 Zidanes or 11 Pavons?

Yea, Manchester United is a tough team to adapt this style of play to. They just haven't got the right players in midfield, defence or attack.. but otherwise De Gea is good 

Premier League sides are probably the toughest because of the managerial churn meaning the squads are all over the place. Unfortunately Arsenal are in a very similar position; I'd be looking at a major overhaul. You could do a lot worse than to raid Portugal for talent!

[skyline72]

Just now, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

Yea, Manchester United is a tough team to adapt this style of play to. They just haven't got the right players in midfield, defence or attack.. but otherwise De Gea is good 

Premier League sides are probably the toughest because of the managerial churn meaning the squads are all over the place. Unfortunately Arsenal are in a very similar position; I'd be looking at a major overhaul. You could do a lot worse than to raid Portugal for talent!

That's where the challenge comes from.

Trying to play Total Football while getting results. 

I brought in De Ligt, Lucas Torreira, Pulisic, Arthur, Gaya, Eder Militao(couldnt get WP for him ) in the first window, sold a bunch of deadwood from Moyes, LVG and Mourinho. 

January window brought in Xadas, Joao Felix(your favourite player), Ryan Sessegnon.

And of course a bunch of youngsters as well to revolutionise the whole club from the 1st team to the Youth team.

Im quite surprised at where we stand in the league though.

In a way frustrated as well, too many draws against teams in the bottom half where we should had beaten them!

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

2022/23 Pre-Season Update

This was a very difficult transfer window.

Keeping hold of players was actually easy, everybody signed new contracts last season and they're professional and mostly love the club. Still get the odd wanting to move to a bigger club.. like Monaco or Leipzig  but it's easy enough to talk them round.

The challenge was creating space for young players coming through in a dead post-Brexit transfer window.

The Premier League's bumper TV deal has been fuelling the global transfer window since the start and now everybody needs work-permits to play in the UK and the market instantly dried up.

My intention was to sell Giovani Lo Celso, Ruben Dias and Victor Bobsin and then loan out the rest. Couldn't get a single bid for Dias or Bobsin and very limited interest in Lo Celso but did eventually negotiate a deal.

The major losses are Oliveira and Batista. I couldn't get a single loan offer for either - even at £0 fee and 0% wages and desperately needed to make space in the squad for the talented youngsters coming through. They've been wonderful servants for the club but unfortunately it's time. Batista is a great fit for Bayern but Oliveira is sadly following Andre Horta into Real Madrid purgatory (15 league appearances in 2 years and transfer listed for £16m with no bids).

Starting from the top, the first team is unchanged..

The broader first team squad is also going to see a lot of action this year as a lot of the team will be recovering from the World Cup.

Biggest talents coming through are:

 

After a poor youth intake we invested £56m in new academy players, now with a very Brazilian feel.

..and newly promoted Benfica B play a 3-4-3 due to an abundance of talented centre forwards.

On we go  

[vrbrasa]

1 hora atrás, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! disse:

2022/23 Pre-Season Update

This was a very difficult transfer window.

Keeping hold of players was actually easy, everybody signed new contracts last season and they're professional and mostly love the club. Still get the odd wanting to move to a bigger club.. like Monaco or Leipzig  but it's easy enough to talk them round.

The challenge was creating space for young players coming through in a dead post-Brexit transfer window.

The Premier League's bumper TV deal has been fuelling the global transfer window since the start and now everybody needs work-permits to play in the UK and the market instantly dried up.

My intention was to sell Giovani Lo Celso, Ruben Dias and Victor Bobsin and then loan out the rest. Couldn't get a single bid for Dias or Bobsin and very limited interest in Lo Celso but did eventually negotiate a deal.

The major losses are Oliveira and Batista. I couldn't get a single loan offer for either - even at £0 fee and 0% wages and desperately needed to make space in the squad for the talented youngsters coming through. They've been wonderful servants for the club but unfortunately it's time. Batista is a great fit for Bayern but Oliveira is sadly following Andre Horta into Real Madrid purgatory (15 league appearances in 2 years and transfer listed for £16m with no bids).

Starting from the top, the first team is unchanged..

The broader first team squad is also going to see a lot of action this year as a lot of the team will be recovering from the World Cup.

Biggest talents coming through are:

 

After a poor youth intake we invested £56m in new academy players, now with a very Brazilian feel.

..and newly promoted Benfica B play a 3-4-3 due to an abundance of talented centre forwards.

On we go  

hi @Ö-zil to the Arsenal!. so you no longer play the "juego de posicion" through the academy? 

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

3 minutes ago, vrbrasa said:

hi @Ö-zil to the Arsenal!. so you no longer play the "juego de posicion" through the academy? 

Positional play would still be my default but it doesn't massively suit this group of players. Having just spent £56m on them and notice they're mostly 18 rather than 16, they can play a more expansive style.

[skyline72]

11 minutes ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

Positional play would still be my default but it doesn't massively suit this group of players. Having just spent £56m on them and notice they're mostly 18 rather than 16, they can play a more expansive style.

At what age do you start shaping the players to the kind you want?

What workload do you give them generally?

Edited May 31, 2020 by skyline72

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

15 minutes ago, skyline72 said:

At what age do you start shaping the players to the kind you want?

What workload do you give them generally?

You'll have to read through the thread for that one, I'm afraid, as it'd be a crazy long answer but the information is all there 

[skyline72]

1 minute ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

You'll have to read through the thread for that one, I'm afraid, as it'd be a crazy long answer but the information is all there 

Alright.

Probably read it before. Will screen through it later. 

[skyline72]

Just scored this goal against Man City.

Apologies for the lousy quality. 

 

[smithy20]

I absolutely loved FM18 and the fact someone like @Ö-zil to the Arsenal! is still playing it, is great. Always gives me a little itch to go back to it for a bit.

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

2 hours ago, skyline72 said:

Just scored this goal against Man City.

Apologies for the lousy quality. 

 

I take back what I said!! 

 

1 hour ago, smithy20 said:

I absolutely loved FM18 and the fact someone like @Ö-zil to the Arsenal! is still playing it, is great. Always gives me a little itch to go back to it for a bit.

Yea it's a shame the last few versions have been a bit sub-par. My biggest struggle is finding inspirations for new saves given my database is either 2-years out of date, or 1-year but with misbalanced gameplay.

[skyline72]

Just now, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

I take back what I said!! 

This is the 2nd season. After 3 transfer windows....

I am struggling to break down teams who sit deep though. Long shots after long shots. 

[smithy20]

43 minutes ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

I take back what I said!! 

 

Yea it's a shame the last few versions have been a bit sub-par. My biggest struggle is finding inspirations for new saves given my database is either 2-years out of date, or 1-year but with misbalanced gameplay.

 

I do get it, why people don't enjoy the past two installments. I do enjoy 20, but 18 is my most played version and overall personal fave for sure

[skyline72]

1 hour ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

Yea it's a shame the last few versions have been a bit sub-par. My biggest struggle is finding inspirations for new saves given my database is either 2-years out of date, or 1-year but with misbalanced gameplay.

Maybe you can try managing Real Sociedad or Athletic Bilbao who can only sign Basque players? 

 

Anyway, do you think the Ponta de lunca you experimented earlier will work in the 343 diamond?

Im thinking of trying that when I have the right players. 

Wonder what will you get when Brazil mix with Dutch. 

Edited May 31, 2020 by skyline72

[vrbrasa]

Em 29/05/2020 em 12:07, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! disse:

Season 2021/22 Update

This is going to be a very brief update, really just to keep this thread up to date as there is a comprehensive update in the Total Football thread.

We have been working on this style for some time, and in 2021/22 it clicked and we played some of the best football I have ever seen.

The tactical evolution was:

• Looking back at the Control/Very Fluid football I felt that we played some nice football but we lacked some attacking edge.
  • Both against the top European sides but also the common deep defensive double pivots we faced in Portugal.
• I started thinking about adding more Attack duties.
  • The main thing I needed was more from my Inside Forwards.
  • I wanted João Felix playing as a False 9 creating space for Jota and Embalo to combine.
  • When the Inside Forwards went to Attack, I had to move my wingbacks to Attack to avoid leaving a gap on the flanks.
  • The Mezzala was already on Attack so that meant 5 attack duties.
• Football Manager is all about balance so 5 Attack duties set alarm bells ringing.
• I realised that if I need 5 Attack duties to make something work, then I am probably on the wrong mentality.
• At the same time I was reading Brilliant Orange again, whilst waiting for my laptop and the penny dropped.. I could create a collective, 'Total' attack.

Dramatic shift in the style of play and results was immediate and spectacular.

Sweeping everybody aside at home, and in Europe.

 

Then at the World Cup.

Outlook for 2022/23

Where on earth do we go from here? 

With our new stadium and the professionalism of the squad we do now have the financial capability to keep this squad together. We'll need to sell a handful of the squad members as we are not sustainable without transfer fees but it should at least be on our terms.

We also have some wonderful players coming through the B Team who also had a very good season:

Possibly the biggest challenge is what do do with Leão, now 17-years old, European Golden Boy and generational talent demanding a place in the team.

Another difficulty I am currently facing is a backlog of players ready to leave the club but the transfer market is absolutely dead following a hard-Brexit meaning players need work permits to play for the wealthiest Premier League clubs. Already getting absolutely derogatory bids for top players - £34m for João Felix?? 

We are not at all strapped for cash so I might sell any squad players I can negotiate at semi-reasonable deals and loan the rest to keep their value.

In the academy expanding our intake is working nicely; although not the most talented intake this year.

We now have clubs in:

• Brazil x2
• Argentina
• Chile
• Uruguay
• Chile
• Peru (added since)

All contributing to the academy.

Having just about exhausted South America (there's a limit per country), I'll get one in Mexico next; my options are then US, China and a few in Africa. Brazil is churning out amazing players year after year again so I am taking any Brazilian options available.

hi @Ö-zil to the Arsenal!. how do you choose the teams, i mean, to me its always very hard to get a yes. i had try to recommend the same as you, but the board fail to make it official. what do you look for when searching for a feed club? 

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

10 hours ago, vrbrasa said:

hi @Ö-zil to the Arsenal!. how do you choose the teams, i mean, to me its always very hard to get a yes. i had try to recommend the same as you, but the board fail to make it official. what do you look for when searching for a feed club? 

I find that it rarely (never?) works to choose clubs not on the suggested clubs list. I tried to get Clairefontaine but no luck.

When I get the suggested club list I filter by country. Brazil are churning out players in this save so I started there. Argentina a next obvious choice. Then I methodically went through South America.

If there are multiple clubs from the same country I'll go with those who have a good record. For example, I'd previously signed two players from Club Universitario de Deportes in Peru and Club Nacional produced some crackers in a previous save. Universidad de Chile and Estudiantes are both famous academies. Conversely I want a Colombian club but wasn't impressed with any of the options available at the time.

[axehan1]

21 hours ago, skyline72 said:

This is the 2nd season. After 3 transfer windows....

I am struggling to break down teams who sit deep though. Long shots after long shots. 

It helps if you train all forward,attacking midfielders to "refrain from taking long shots" and "look for pass rather shoot" also, although  O-Zil has gone back to very fluid, I find playing structured keeps my team playing to the system which helps to minimise the long shots.

Playing like this..

Helped us to do this..

[skyline72]

2 minutes ago, axehan1 said:

It helps if you train all forward,attacking midfielders to "refrain from taking long shots" and "look for pass rather shoot" also, although  O-Zil has gone back to very fluid, I find playing structured keeps my team playing to the system which helps to minimise the long shots.

I think theres nothing to do with the team shape.

Just that my team cant break through super defensive teams thats why they resort to taking long shots. 

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

37 minutes ago, skyline72 said:

I think theres nothing to do with the team shape.

Just that my team cant break through super defensive teams thats why they resort to taking long shots. 

The work the ball into the box TI doesn't help?

I notice more long shots with more attacking tactics so typically add Work the Ball into the Box quite regularly.

More likely shooting from range is likely a symptom of something else. Look at the circumstances in which they are shooting? Do they have other options? Most common for me is when we break, if someone gets isolated they'll fire off a stupid long shot. Solve that by stopping them getting isolated, not by telling them to shoot less. Also if they have other options, but don't take them is the player's decision making good enough? Address that by training them to improve their decision making and playing a more structured style in the meantime to limit their creative freedom.

[skyline72]

8 minutes ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

The work the ball into the box TI doesn't help?

I notice more long shots with more attacking tactics so typically add Work the Ball into the Box quite regularly.

More likely shooting from range is likely a symptom of something else. Look at the circumstances in which they are shooting? Do they have other options? Most common for me is when we break, if someone gets isolated they'll fire off a stupid long shot. Solve that by stopping them getting isolated, not by telling them to shoot less. Also if they have other options, but don't take them is the player's decision making good enough? Address that by training them to improve their decision making and playing a more structured style in the meantime to limit their creative freedom.

Yea, Im not blaming my players for doing that.

Its my fault as the manager for allowing that to happen.

[skyline72]

 

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

[MadOnion]

I think the last time a false 9 scored that many goals whilst winning the B'or at the same time was a certain diminutive argentine, and that was in real life.

It does take a special player to win that award and Felix is that special.

PS: honourable mention to Gonçalo Oliveira 

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

On 04/06/2020 at 10:37, MadOnion said:

I think the last time a false 9 scored that many goals whilst winning the B'or at the same time was a certain diminutive argentine, and that was in real life.

It does take a special player to win that award and Felix is that special.

PS: honourable mention to Gonçalo Oliveira 

I'd still like to see him get a few more assists 

[MadOnion]

@Ö-zil to the Arsenal! one thing you don't talk about much (I think) is in-game management?

The more sceptical ones will look at your tactic and deem one-dimensional but no two players are the same eg: Jota being two-footed and Embaló more direct, traits also play a part etc...

Against deep blocks in Portugal (4-2DM systems) and if you're chasing a goal, what do you normally do? Like for like substitutions, but with a different profile? Shouts? Change mentality and patiently wait for the opening? Change Felix's role to something more aggressive?

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

7 hours ago, MadOnion said:

@Ö-zil to the Arsenal! one thing you don't talk about much (I think) is in-game management?

The more sceptical ones will look at your tactic and deem one-dimensional but no two players are the same eg: Jota being two-footed and Embaló more direct, traits also play a part etc...

Against deep blocks in Portugal (4-2DM systems) and if you're chasing a goal, what do you normally do? Like for like substitutions, but with a different profile? Shouts? Change mentality and patiently wait for the opening? Change Felix's role to something more aggressive?

I think that if someone sees this style of play as one-dimensional, they really don't understand it all.

Giving technically talented, intelligent footballers freedom to play attacking football - to me, at least - is the very anti-thesis of one-dimensional. We have lots of creative players, lots of movement, lots of pace, width and triangles all over and that's why we score so many goals. The only thing we don't really have is any Target Man-type physical threat, which I would love if we had someone capable of that, plus the other requirements of the system, but we don't.

The source of that misunderstanding would most likely be the simplicity of the tactics - no fancy formation, roles or even attack duties. Instead of seeing tactics as a "playbook", this is approach is simply giving players a framework to play.

Really, all we're doing is telling them to play creative, attacking football and filling a team with players capable of playing it (but that is so much easier said than done!). The only real tactical instructions are the collective press, and encouraging a high-tempo, short passing game; otherwise they're given a lot of autonomy.

Naturally this style requires talented players, which is largely why most of my saves are with massive clubs.

I actually find in game strategy very difficult to write about as it is so contextually specific it's difficult to comment. A few loose thoughts would be:

• Use my subs early (2 around the 50th minute and the last one on the 75th, barring injury) in order to give them time to impact the game.
• When making subs I weigh up:
  • Squad rotation
  • Ability difference between the player coming off and on
  • Tiredness
• My most common substitution is to bring on a more expansive midfield option and shift Florentino Luis into defence.

Occasionally a slight shift in shape, but rarely. I don't like changing too much without really having the opportunity to think it through.

I am afraid I don't feel that I have too much to add. Most of our matches, and indeed championships, are won in the years at the academy and building the right players for the team rather than a specific change on the day.

Edited June 9, 2020 by Ö-zil to the Arsenal!

[MadOnion]

Unfortunatly we see a lot of that (systems being one-dimensional) on here, so I wanted to hear your opinion on it. We seem to share the same opinion.

With the removal of team shape, we will never know how (at least I to what extent) how expansive a team can be without using certain TIs (pass into space, be more creative, etc). Very fluid now means lots of support duties.

One of things I do is to ask the team to either shoot more or run at defence when trying to break the deadlock, that often generates set-pieces, particularly penalties.

 

[Deego619]

Are there any updates on how you manage your B team and U19s? It seems like your most promising youngsters are in the U19s even at age 18, whereas the B team has some good 17 year old prospects. 

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

22 minutes ago, MadOnion said:

Unfortunatly we see a lot of that (systems being one-dimensional) on here, so I wanted to hear your opinion on it. We seem to share the same opinion.

With the removal of team shape, we will never know how (at least I to what extent) how expansive a team can be without using certain TIs (pass into space, be more creative, etc). Very fluid now means lots of support duties.

One of things I do is to ask the team to either shoot more or run at defence when trying to break the deadlock, that often generates set-pieces, particularly penalties.

To me, a one-dimensional system would be more specialists who excel at one facet of the game but do not contribute to others; a 6-yard box Poacher, a Trequartista who will not press or a ball-winnning midfielder/limited defender who is hopeless on the ball.

It might seem that a classic passer-runner-destroyer is more balanced than effectively playing 3 playmakers until you consider:

1. how that midfield performs when the destroyer finds himself in position to create a goal, or when the creator is expected to make goal-saving tackle.
2. our midfield may be primarily playmakers but have been trained to attack, defend and work hard; Dantas has 16 Positioning, 17 Anticipation, 18 Concentration, 15 Work Rate whereas Luis is more defensive but still 15 technique, 15 vision, 14 passing. Even Xadas has defensive attributes of 12-14.

Ultimately it comes down to 3 individuals where one is defensive, one is hard working and one is an attacking versus a collective trio who attack and defend together.

I've obviously spoken about it to death, but the Football Manager 2020 tactics creator is much more limited. I think that the Team Fluidity is now meaningless, so all you've really got is "Be More Expressive".

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

25 minutes ago, JDeeguain said:

Are there any updates on how you manage your B team and U19s? It seems like your most promising youngsters are in the U19s even at age 18, whereas the B team has some good 17 year old prospects. 

That is an anomaly because last year we had a dreadful youth intake, so I sent my scouts to South America basically from the date of our dud-intake in March until August and spent £50m+ on the best players they found.

The 17 year olds in the B Team would mostly be players who joined the club at 16, did a year with the U19s and are now in the B Team. This is the more ideal, typical path (although sending a war chest of cash to South America is fun ).

Frustratingly, it's going to happen again this year because I have just had another dreadful intake.

[skyline72]

1 hour ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

That is an anomaly because last year we had a dreadful youth intake, so I sent my scouts to South America basically from the date of our dud-intake in March until August and spent £50m+ on the best players they found.

The 17 year olds in the B Team would mostly be players who joined the club at 16, did a year with the U19s and are now in the B Team. This is the more ideal, typical path (although sending a war chest of cash to South America is fun ).

Frustratingly, it's going to happen again this year because I have just had another dreadful intake.

I cant really sign South American talents due to the stupid Work Permit!!

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

If goals ever did come from a playbook, this was it:

Ball played out of defence through Dantas, Costa and Valentim in midfield. João Felix drops deep into midfield, passes to the Alves overlapping, who finds Jota driving inside to cut back for Felix now arriving unmarked in the box 

This was the goal to break Eusebio's 1968 goalscoring record of 42 league goals.

[MadOnion]

Amazing goal 

Felix with the messi-esq movement.

Also amazing is the fact you're playing with an attacking mentality which increases width, yet both IFs are so narrow.

Something I'm struggling with in FM20

Edited August 5, 2020 by MadOnion

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

2022/23 Season Update

This was a weird season. For part of the season it felt like the season after our best ever season; for another part of the season it felt like the transition to a new team; and for the - for the 3rd, and final, act - it felt like our best season ever.

Part One: post-2022

I am searching for a screenshot which will explain this section; it's difficult as the results remained excellent, but something was missing.

Tired after heroic World Cup exploits and picking up knocks all over the place, we didn't manage to put out our full starting 11 at all in the first few months of the season.

Form was good, results were good, but not quite at the same level as last season. The midfield felt a bit slower, our attacking trio hadn't played together and I couldn't settle on the best partner for Pinto at the back.

We were starting to get a little bit flat and I was wondering if it was time to start moving on a few big names to freshen the squad. Fortunately the transfer market in January was still non-existent, otherwise I may have made a mistake if the right bid came in. Pragmatism is not my strong point.

Part Two: the New Wave

Whilst much of the squad was a bit flat, Vitor Costa was a breath of fresh air.

Costa - all of a sudden - was the heartbeat of the team, playing a high-energy crisp passing game and it became increasingly clear I had to find a place for him in the starting 11.

I couldn't possibly replace Dantas, could I? No.  That was never a serious consideration. But nevertheless I did have to find a way to accommodate Vitor Costa.

Florentino Luis was the weakest creative link in our midfield, and was doing OK but not setting the world alight in his Box-to-Box role. I'd tried - and failed - playing without Luis before so was extremely apprehensive about dropping him, but Costa isn't direct enough for the Xadas-role so I decided replace Luis and push Dantas into a more advanced role.

That was encouraging, but not quite there. The squad was still extremely disrupted - with Jota, Embalo, Alves, Vinicius Junior, Guimaraes and Tralhao all had 1 month+ injuries - but we started to click.

The passing play was quicker and more decisive, back to dominating teams with chance after chance.

It was ultimately the injuries in central defence in which we stumbled into the system which clicked.

Part 3: New and.. improved?

Costa successfully developed his weaker foot to become either footed and started to become more dynamic which meant Dantas went back into his favoured DLP(D) role and Costa in midfield.

The majority of the time I prefer one playmaker; but in this instance, it was simply the quality of the two that necessitated two.

I experimented with a DLP(S) but they were too one-dimensional?  and the advanced playmaker can run wide with the ball to occupy that crucial space flanking an opposition double pivot.

Florentino Luis has matured to become an outstanding central defender. He's the most intelligent defensive player in Europe and is one of the best ball playing defenders out there.

I don't know how I am going to tell the guys in the Total Football thread I added attack duties 

The mentality split is:
 

        12
17              17
    14      14
        14
17  14      14  17
        14

Honestly, it's very similar.

I wanted to accentuate the False 9 role by encouraging the Inside Forwards to advance beyond him more.

Deep-lying Playmaker vs Advanced Playmaker

Just a very brief comment on something I also noticed a few years ago with Barcelona.

Despite common sense that the Deep-Lying Playmaker should see more of the ball - being in more space, involved earlier in build up - the Advanced Playmaker invariably does.

Dantas stats in both roles:

Costa stats in both roles:

This is why I shifted to the Mezzala years ago but right now I think Costa justifies the playmaker role.

 

Now for the reason I say this might be the best football we have played so far..

This is a grudge match. Despite our ever expanding gulf in reputation, Monaco have been unsettling my best players for years. Now, it's pay back time.

Coached by - one of my favourite managers - Leonardo Jardim; Monaco play an attacking 4-2-3-1. Lots of fairly well known names there, but I'd just highlight Gustavo Scarpa who - I had never heard of - but is a superb, well-rounded playmaker I will be snapping up in future.

 

Now that is how you win a Champions League 

On a more serious note, please notice a couple of things:

1. Jota - these creative force of a two-footed Inside Forward.
   • Impossible to defend - able to cut inside and shoot or go outside and cross; with a wingback overlapping.
2. Joao Felix - deep movement during build up
3. Monaco have one of the worst defensive structures I have seen from a top side:
   1. They're high up, wingbacks often forward
   2. Zero compactness between their central defenders and midfield.
      • I'd guess one midfielder is a Ball Winning Midfielder, the other maybe Box-to-Box or something with Roam from Position, as he's rarely in position.
   3. Zero compactness on their flanks; regular massive gaping holes.
      • Pulisic and Lemar must be attacking roles, maybe even Trequartistas or IF(A); we walked through them.

Shame I cannot show an extra couple of seconds as some of those would show you a lot on the counter, and in the build up.

Road to the Final..

League

Closest I have been to not conceding all year. Conceded two in the end; one mid-way through the season when 5-0 up and one when we had already won the league 

Stats for those who are interested.

Let's see if the post-Brexit transfer market has recovered this year..

Edited June 9, 2020 by Ö-zil to the Arsenal!

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

The Cut

The academy has been well-resourced and the centre of the club for a number of years now and is very much in full swing.

Something I thought might be worth bringing up is the players who do not make it.

This year, we could field an entire match day squad of players who - at some points I have been excited about - but ultimately are not going to make the cut.

In recent years, we have lost some great players - namely Batista, Lo Celso and Oliveira - simply due to being unable to find a regular starting space for and needing room for young players coming through.

This year there are far more who are simply not good enough; despite high potential they simply don't fit in the team.

• Vitor Vieira, Jorge Perreira, Bruno Baixinho, Jose Silva, Nuno Oliveira, Joao Dias, Rodrigo Dias, Paulo Vieira and Idris Djalo all came through the academy.
  • Most of these are pretty well tutored but are not looking like reaching the standard of the first team, which is fair.
• Arlenson Navarro is an excellent aggressive defender - and is going to have a brilliant career somewhere - but failed to take to tutoring and isn't technically good enough to fit our style.
• Santoshi Ogasawara (20 caps for Japan) and Ibrahim Diallo are two of the biggest disappointments; outstanding potential but failed to take to tutoring and develop their game.
• Roberto, Lozano and Fernandes have been tearing it up for Benfica B and I was expecting to need to play a front 3 to accommodate them eventually however when I took a closer look, thinking about first team opportunities I was very disappointed with their work rate, technical ability and intelligence.
• Hugo Anchas (22 caps and 10 goals for Peru) doesn't look like contributing defensively.
  • As I write this I am going back on this one, I am going to give him a chance but heavy training as a Defensive Forward.

Thought it might be interesting to show the good players who come through but don't fit the style. Reading threads like this it's easy to give the impression that everyone's a Vitor Costa or Leao but I am pretty ruthless with those not fitting the style.

One observation is that most of the biggest disappointments are:

1. Picked up at 18 rather than 15/16 due to their country requirements.
2. Played mainly for Benfica B rather than the U19s.

May be interesting to see the South Americans brought in last year who played for the U19s for a year and are now moving up into the B Team.

[Enzo_Francescoli]

14 hours ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

I've obviously spoken about it to death, but the Football Manager 2020 tactics creator is much more limited. I think that the Team Fluidity is now meaningless, so all you've really got is "Be More Expressive".

I think there is a little more to it than that, though. Team fluidity does not directly change the way your team plays, but the bunch of support (or itne other end of the spectrum, attack and defend) duties that by definition come with it, do. One can use the same formation, same TI's, even the same roles, but it will play out entirely differently on structured than on fluid. Firstly, the individual mentalities are closer to each other. Secondly, the players will move more like a unit, the defensive transitions are faster, because even the ones higher up the pitch will come back. Thirdly, the less attack duties you use, the fewer the players that will attack the box, which will result in a different passing system. Support duties will seek to make themselves available for the shorter pass, helping out their teammates, beacuse, well, that's what support means.

Now, in the older version of the game, one could theoretically use 5 defend duties and 5 attack duties and then click a button and tell the team to play very fluid. How are they supposed to that when moments ago I had told half the team to stay back and the other half to bomb forward? I believe the new version is way more realistic, because fluidity now comes with our overall setup and we can't simply override it with a single slider.

Edited June 10, 2020 by Enzo_Francescoli

[skyline72]

@Ö-zil to the Arsenal!

Not sure if you can top this. 

 

 

Edited June 10, 2020 by skyline72

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

38 minutes ago, Enzo_Francescoli said:

I think there is a little more to it than that, though. Team fluidity does not directly change the way your team plays, but the bunch of support duties that by definition come with it, do. One can use the same formation, same TI's, even the same roles, but it will play out entirely differently on structured than on fluid. Firstly, the individual mentalities are closer to each other. Secondly, the players will move more like a unit, the defensive transitions are faster, because even the ones higher up the pitch will come back. Thirdly, the less attack duties you use, the fewer the players that will attack the box, which will result in a different passing system. Support duties will seek to make themselves available for the shorter pass, helping out their teammates, beacuse, well, that's what support means.

Now, in the older version of the game, one could theoretically use 5 defend duties and 5 attack duties and then click a button and tell the team to play very fluid. How are they supposed to that when moments ago I had told half the team to stay back and the other half to bomb forward? I believe the new version is way more realistic, because fluidity now comes with our overall setup and we can't simply override it with a single slider.

I agree about the Support duties indirectly effecting a style of play but strongly disagree about the realism; and the bigger issue is the lack of functionality.

Take Pep Guardiola's recent Manchester City and Bayern Munich teams as an example. It's pretty clear that they play extremely disciplined possession football; both teams very much play to his instruction, but at the same time everyone contributes to the team as a collective.

In Football Manager 2018 this would be very simple:

1. Control mentality
2. Lots of Support duties
3. Highly Structured team shape

You'd have extremely disciplined, possession football where everyone contributes to the team collective.

In Football Manager 2020 you'd use a Positive team mentality and then:

• EITHER select Support duties, giving you a Very Fluid shape.. which doesn't do anything anyway. Maybe say "Be more Disciplined".
  • I have no idea how this would play, but it's extremely messy.
• OR select a mixture of Attack, Defend or Support duties to get Highly Structured but then your players no longer have players playing as a collective unit; attackers would attack, defenders would defend etc.
  • I think this would get you a very different style of play.
• OR.. vertical tiki taka! 

To your point about Attackers and Defenders in a Fluid system; take Arsenal's 'Invincibles' as an example. Clearly a free-flowing, attacking team with Henry, Pires, Cole and Bergkamp making an extremely fluid attack counter-balanced by Gilberto Silva as an out and out defensive midfielder even known as the 'Invisible Wall'. He'd be an MC(D) in a Fluid, Attacking system; this would give him a cautious mentality (9 in old terms) and he'd hold position in midfield.

The 'Makelele' role in the Galacticos would be a similar example.

 

Edited June 10, 2020 by Ö-zil to the Arsenal!

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

10 minutes ago, skyline72 said:

@Ö-zil to the Arsenal!

Not sure if you can top this. 

Not bad at all! 

Is that Martial? Who tutored him to get to Model Citizen?

[AndersAas]

12 hours ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

2022/23 Season Update

This was a weird season. For part of the season it felt like the season after our best ever season; for another part of the season it felt like the transition to a new team; and for the - for the 3rd, and final, act - it felt like our best season ever.

Part One: post-2022

I am searching for a screenshot which will explain this section; it's difficult as the results remained excellent, but something was missing.

Tired after heroic World Cup exploits and picking up knocks all over the place, we didn't manage to put out our full starting 11 at all in the first few months of the season.

Form was good, results were good, but not quite at the same level as last season. The midfield felt a bit slower, our attacking trio hadn't played together and I couldn't settle on the best partner for Pinto at the back.

We were starting to get a little bit flat and I was wondering if it was time to start moving on a few big names to freshen the squad. Fortunately the transfer market in January was still non-existent, otherwise I may have made a mistake if the right bid came in. Pragmatism is not my strong point.

Part Two: the New Wave

Whilst much of the squad was a bit flat, Vitor Costa was a breath of fresh air.

Costa - all of a sudden - was the heartbeat of the team, playing a high-energy crisp passing game and it became increasingly clear I had to find a place for him in the starting 11.

I couldn't possibly replace Dantas, could I? No.  That was never a serious consideration. But nevertheless I did have to find a way to accommodate Vitor Costa.

Florentino Luis was the weakest creative link in our midfield, and was doing OK but not setting the world alight in his Box-to-Box role. I'd tried - and failed - playing without Luis before so was extremely apprehensive about dropping him, but Costa isn't direct enough for the Xadas-role so I decided replace Luis and push Dantas into a more advanced role.

That was encouraging, but not quite there. The squad was still extremely disrupted - with Jota, Embalo, Alves, Vinicius Junior, Guimaraes and Tralhao all had 1 month+ injuries - but we started to click.

The passing play was quicker and more decisive, back to dominating teams with chance after chance.

It was ultimately the injuries in central defence in which we stumbled into the system which clicked.

Part 3: New and.. improved?

Costa successfully developed his weaker foot to become either footed and started to become more dynamic which meant Dantas went back into his favoured DLP(D) role and Costa in midfield.

The majority of the time I prefer one playmaker; but in this instance, it was simply the quality of the two that necessitated two.

I experimented with a DLP(S) but they were too one-dimensional?  and the advanced playmaker can run wide with the ball to occupy that crucial space flanking an opposition double pivot.

Florentino Luis has matured to become an outstanding central defender. He's the most intelligent defensive player in Europe and is one of the best ball playing defenders out there.

I don't know how I am going to tell the guys in the Total Football thread I added attack duties 

The mentality split is:
 

        12
17              17
    14      14
        14
17  14      14  17
        14

Honestly, it's very similar.

I wanted to accentuate the False 9 role by encouraging the Inside Forwards to advance beyond him more.

Deep-lying Playmaker vs Advanced Playmaker

Just a very brief comment on something I also noticed a few years ago with Barcelona.

Despite common sense that the Deep-Lying Playmaker should see more of the ball - being in more space, involved earlier in build up - the Advanced Playmaker invariably does.

Dantas stats in both roles:

Costa stats in both roles:

This is why I shifted to the Mezzala years ago but right now I think Costa justifies the playmaker role.

 

Now for the reason I say this might be the best football we have played so far..

This is a grudge match. Despite our ever expanding gulf in reputation, Monaco have been unsettling my best players for years. Now, it's pay back time.

Coached by - one of my favourite managers - Leonardo Jardim; Monaco play an attacking 4-2-3-1. Lots of fairly well known names there, but I'd just highlight Gustavo Scarpa who - I had never heard of - but is a superb, well-rounded playmaker I will be snapping up in future.

 

Now that is how you win a Champions League 

On a more serious note, please notice a couple of things:

1. Jota - these creative force of a two-footed Inside Forward.
   • Impossible to defend - able to cut inside and shoot or go outside and cross; with a wingback overlapping.
2. Joao Felix - deep movement during build up
3. Monaco have one of the worst defensive structures I have seen from a top side:
   1. They're high up, wingbacks often forward
   2. Zero compactness between their central defenders and midfield.
      • I'd guess one midfielder is a Ball Winning Midfielder, the other maybe Box-to-Box or something with Roam from Position, as he's rarely in position.
   3. Zero compactness on their flanks; regular massive gaping holes.
      • Pulisic and Lemar must be attacking roles, maybe even Trequartistas or IF(A); we walked through them.

Shame I cannot show an extra couple of seconds as some of those would show you a lot on the counter, and in the build up.

Road to the Final..

League

Closest I have been to not conceding all year. Conceded two in the end; one mid-way through the season when 5-0 up and one when we had already won the league 

Stats for those who are interested.

Let's see if the post-Brexit transfer market has recovered this year..

Hi @Ö-zil to the Arsenal!

if you were to change the false 9 role to a more common striker role but have the rest of the tactic as it is, which role would you pick?

Would a CFs hold up the ball too much? It would have more roaming to the wings, and not be suited to a Joao Felix kind of player maybe? Or would you pick a DLFs who would drop more centrally and mimic the False 9 more? I`m thinking that the DLPs would have less touches but more of the same movement as the F9.

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

Just now, AndersAas said:

Hi @Ö-zil to the Arsenal!

if you were to change the false 9 role to a more common striker role but have the rest of the tactic as it is, which role would you pick?

Would a CFs hold up the ball too much? It would have more roaming to the wings, and not be suited to a Joao Felix kind of player maybe? Or would you pick a DLFs who would drop more centrally and mimic the False 9 more? I`m thinking that the DLPs would have less touches but more of the same movement as the F9.

Depends very much on the player; there's lots of different types of striker out there!

Complete Forward would be a good option. I am not sure why you mean by "hold up the ball too much"; I am not sure it would hold the ball up any more than any other role which holds the ball up?

Deep-Lying Forward and Complete Forward are very similar; both hold up the ball but the Complete Forward roams from position.

It really depends on the context of the player and the rest of the team.

[buachuta]

36 minutes ago, skyline72 said:

@Ö-zil to the Arsenal!

Not sure if you can top this. 

 

 

That's impressive 

Do you play him as a CF (s)?

[AndersAas]

4 minutes ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

Depends very much on the player; there's lots of different types of striker out there!

Complete Forward would be a good option. I am not sure why you mean by "hold up the ball too much"; I am not sure it would hold the ball up any more than any other role which holds the ball up?

Deep-Lying Forward and Complete Forward are very similar; both hold up the ball but the Complete Forward roams from position.

It really depends on the context of the player and the rest of the team.

Thanks. IMO it looks like that the CF holds the ball up more just for the sake of it than a DLP, but this can be down to the player I use. I have Benzema atm who is quite good at link-up play, so the F9 is an ok role for him. I`m thinking of using Hazard there since he is better on the ball and more complete than Benzema. Havertz or Kane is possible buys to get more of a scorer/creator kind of player.

[skyline72]

38 minutes ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

Not bad at all! 

Is that Martial? Who tutored him to get to Model Citizen?

Yes, thats Martial.

Didn't realise I crop his name off. 

I forgotten man. 

[skyline72]

15 minutes ago, buachuta said:

That's impressive 

Do you play him as a CF (s)?

Either CF(s) in the 4231 or F9 in the 4123.

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

4 minutes ago, AndersAas said:

Thanks. IMO it looks like that the CF holds the ball up more just for the sake of it than a DLP, but this can be down to the player I use. I have Benzema atm who is quite good at link-up play, so the F9 is an ok role for him. I`m thinking of using Hazard there since he is better on the ball and more complete than Benzema. Havertz or Kane is possible buys to get more of a scorer/creator kind of player.

My thought process is typically more of a process of elimination starting with whether I want an Attack or Support duty. From there, it'd be something like:

• If Support:
  • Do I want the player to hold the ball up?
    • If no, False 9 (Support)
    • If yes, do I want the player to be a target man?
      • If yes, Target Man (Support)
      • If no, do I want the player to roam?
        • If yes, Complete Forward (Support)
        • If no, Deep-Lying Forward (Support)
• If Attack:
  • Do I want a playmaker?
    • If yes, Trequartista (Attack)
    • If no, do I want the player to hold the ball up?
      • If no, do is the player good on the ball?
        • If yes, Advanced Forward (Attack)
        • If no, Poacher (Attack)
      • If yes, do I want a Target Man?
        • If yes, Target Man (Attack)
        • If no, do I want the player roaming?
          • If yes, Compete Forward (Attack)
          • If no, Deep-Lying Forward (Attack)

In my experience, most roles are way more superficial than they make out; most are just a template of player instructions with a few having hard coded movements. As with anything, if uncertain, try it out for a few games; if you notice something you'd like to change then change it, if not, move on.

[Enzo_Francescoli]

25 minutes ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

I agree about the Support duties indirectly effecting a style of play but strongly disagree about the realism; and the bigger issue is the lack of functionality.

Take Pep Guardiola's recent Manchester City and Bayern Munich teams as an example. It's pretty clear that they play extremely disciplined possession football; both teams very much play to his instruction, but at the same time everyone contributes to the team as a collective.

In Football Manager 2018 this would be very simple:

1. Control mentality
2. Lots of Support duties
3. Highly Structured team shape

You'd have extremely disciplined, possession football where everyone contributes to the team collective.

In Football Manager 2020 you'd use a Positive team mentality and then:

• EITHER select Support duties, giving you a Very Fluid shape.. which doesn't do anything anyway. Maybe say "Be more Disciplined".
  • I have no idea how this would play, but it's extremely messy.
• OR select a mixture of Attack, Defend or Support duties to get Highly Structured but then your players no longer have players playing as a collective unit; attackers would attack, defenders would defend etc.
  • I think this would get you a very different style of play.
• OR.. vertical tiki taka! 

To your point about Attackers and Defenders in a Fluid system; take Arsenal's 'Invincibles' as an example. Clearly a free-flowing, attacking team with Henry, Pires, Cole and Bergkamp making an extremely fluid attack counter-balanced by Gilberto Silva as an out and out defensive midfielder even known as the 'Invisible Wall'. He'd be an MC(D) in a Fluid, Attacking system; this would give him a cautious mentality (9 in old terms) and he'd hold position in midfield.

The 'Makelele' role in the Galacticos would be a similar example.

 

I don't think structured necessarily equals disciplined and fluid always equals expressive. A team can very well be a tactically micromanaged, inherently disciplined bunch and still play fluid football. Take Simeone's Atletico Madrid for an example.

Structured, to me, means that there are clear and separable units on the team, where you can easily say that this player's job is to defend and defend only and that players sole job is to attack the opponent's box. Guardiola doesn't play like that. His famous free 8's at City roam around and use their flair to make a difference, for example. Be More Disciplined would take a lot away of their impact. I also think that Guardiola is relatively easy to recreate on FM20.

I would argue that, when translated to FM20, the Arsenal team would have three defend duties at most (the centre-backs and Gilberto, and even the latter is debatable) and one attack duty, Thierry Henry. You can still create an attacking, free-flowing system with one attack duty AND with the inclusion a holding midfielder on the team. Because the rest of the players will be on support and behave according to attributes, traits, mentality, role, TI's, PI's etc. Just because their individual mentality is positive at the maximum doesn't mean they can't be a devastating attacking force when put together. Ashley Cole can be a conservative full-back, which he wasn't, or a CWB, both on support duty, and play at an entirely different risk level, while not affecting team fluidity whatsoever.