Caixa Futebol Academy: Youth Development & Adapting Tactics

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

1 hour ago, Continum said:

Excatly this. That was really my question. Sorry, maybe I wasn't too clear on that. Cause here you will strive to avoid too "big" gaps I assume? E.g. if you switched the two CB's so the one with 2 in mentality is positioned behind the MC with 8 in mentality. In my eyes that could be a concern.

Precisely.

 

1 hour ago, Continum said:

That's understandable. I could post my setup when I'm off work to provide more information if you are interested.

 

Thanks for the answers so far.

You're welcome. By all means, go ahead.

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

Wow, so we've just played Arsenal in the European Super Cup and they have turned into a pretty interesting proposition, should the job become available.

Beat them comfortably, but check out their team:

Matt Vallis, Alex Bell, Steve Wallis and Ramuel Downey all come from their academy. Reiss Nelson and De Ligt also look pretty good.

Vallis is England captain and has an excellent record.

They've been pretty consistent in the post-Wenger era (take note, Arsenal fans).

Signs of improvement in the league.

Also just off the back of an FA Cup and Europa League double.

It may be the rose tinted spectacles, but they seem like a club to keep an eye on.

[Continum]

5 hours ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

You're welcome. By all means, go ahead.

Ok, so here's my setup right now:

 

And here's my left wing-back discussed earlier:

 

As you can see his off the ball isn't the best, that's why I'm a bit reluctant to use him in a support role. You can see in the team instructions I've applied focus down left and look for overlap to increase his mentality. Haven't tested the tactic that much yet as I created it in the end of the season. So I'm open for improvements there as well.

[Timotinho]

Hey Ozil,

This is a phenomenal read - I didn't do much work today and you've inspired me to start something like this, myself.

I'm curious around your defensive line with these overload formations - I want to emulate the styles you've implemented but i'm curious as to whether you instruct the team to park high up the pitch while pressing intensely, or whether you drop in to your defensive block before you press ie deeper on the pitch?

 

[False9]

On ‎03‎/‎12‎/‎2019 at 08:31, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

Yes, he does. For some reason I am producing quite a lot of Defensive Centre Backs and Defensive Fullbacks which is odd, given how we train. It's resulted in a pretty solid defence though!

 

FM 2018.

 

Thank you very much. Yes, the switch from bars to labels adds considerably more guessing, unfortunately. It's a horrible interface.

You can certainly have a successful tactic with gaps.

In this type high-pressing, possession style, you don't want big gaps. That's my personal preference, anyway. You want everyone working together as a unit, contributing to pressing and possession.

Certain styles, particularly counter or defensive, you actually do want gaps. Whilst you do still want the team to be one unit, you do still need to score goals. Control, Attack and Overload all have their own increasingly intense defensive strategy - pressing. However a Defensive mentality doesn't have any attacking strategy so you need to build it in with duties.

For example, probably the most famous defensive side in the world:

 

This translates to:
 

    10
          15
11   8    4   11

12   4    2   12
        2

Huge gaps, from 2-15. However I'd still expect this to be one of the most solid, compact defensive systems I could come up with (with the caveat that it actually scores some goals too).

I'd try to minimise gaps between a player and the guy ahead of him. For example, DR -> MR or DC -> MC but as you can see that's not too much of a problem.

It's difficult to answer the question about your left back without seeing the player and the set up on the whole, but it doesn't sound too much of a problem. Personally I don't like defensive wingbacks very much (only used a few times); mainly because I often use my wingbacks for width or providing extra numbers in midfield.

Hope this helps 

Does this means there's chance of a Simeone re-creation thread??

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

On 03/12/2019 at 15:48, Continum said:

Ok, so here's my setup right now:

 

And here's my left wing-back discussed earlier:

 

As you can see his off the ball isn't the best, that's why I'm a bit reluctant to use him in a support role. You can see in the team instructions I've applied focus down left and look for overlap to increase his mentality. Haven't tested the tactic that much yet as I created it in the end of the season. So I'm open for improvements there as well.

I don't see anything inherently wrong. My personal recommendation would be to push the wingback into a support role, otherwise you're lacking width on that left hand side with the inside forward coming in.

I'd recommend playing a few games and seeing what you observe. I'd look out for how the midfield progresses the ball, with the DLP ahead of the MC(D). In most cases (not all) find the playmaker more effective as the deepest midfielder, but that's very much personal preference.
 

On 04/12/2019 at 05:32, Timotinho said:

Hey Ozil,

This is a phenomenal read - I didn't do much work today and you've inspired me to start something like this, myself.

I'm curious around your defensive line with these overload formations - I want to emulate the styles you've implemented but i'm curious as to whether you instruct the team to park high up the pitch while pressing intensely, or whether you drop in to your defensive block before you press ie deeper on the pitch?

 

Thank you  I push right up. I've got good, quick defenders and the team has been pressing effectively for years.

 

On 04/12/2019 at 10:45, False9 said:

Does this means there's chance of a Simeone re-creation thread??

Could do. I'd need to find the time. It's certainly been requested a lot. In fact, probably more than any others. I'm uncertain about how much interest there would be given I'm still using FM2018. I'm not seeing much sign of improvement in the tactics creator for FM2020 unfortunately.

[zlatanera]

7 hours ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

Could do. I'd need to find the time. It's certainly been requested a lot. In fact, probably more than any others. I'm uncertain about how much interest there would be given I'm still using FM2018. I'm not seeing much sign of improvement in the tactics creator for FM2020 unfortunately.

Given the amount of people complaining about being unable to do ‘defensive’ football the past couple of years (not one of them, give me rapid counter-attacks on a high mentality all day long) I imagine there’d still be interest. Plus on the newest FM all the Simeone old guard have moved on meaning Atlético might actually not be the best team for the replication. 

FM19 onwards might actually be better for this particular recreation though - Line of Engagement, Counter-Press / Hold Shape, Counter / Regroup and Defensive Width seem important for that sort of style. 

Edited December 8, 2019 by zlatanera

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

On 08/12/2019 at 12:51, zlatanera said:

Given the amount of people complaining about being unable to do ‘defensive’ football the past couple of years (not one of them, give me rapid counter-attacks on a high mentality all day long) I imagine there’d still be interest. Plus on the newest FM all the Simeone old guard have moved on meaning Atlético might actually not be the best team for the replication. 

FM19 onwards might actually be better for this particular recreation though - Line of Engagement, Counter-Press / Hold Shape, Counter / Regroup and Defensive Width seem important for that sort of style. 

Pretty good sales pitch  I'm still not sure I can look past the ambiguity in team shape and interface for individual mentalities, unfortunately 

[zlatanera]

18 hours ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

Pretty good sales pitch  I'm still not sure I can look past the ambiguity in team shape and interface for individual mentalities, unfortunately 

Aha more of a typing what I think than a sale's pitch - I somewhat regret buying FM19 as although I've enjoyed it I think I preferred 18. But can't go back to even further outdated squads now - as thinking about what those additions could do defensively has me thinking of trying my own Atletico recreation once I tire of my current save. Which would ironically make me more interested in seeing yours, given the different tools available to achieve the same end goal. 

[Justified]

21 hours ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

Pretty good sales pitch  I'm still not sure I can look past the ambiguity in team shape and interface for individual mentalities, unfortunately 

You could always see it as a new challenge? The mechanics underneath the hood still stand so you probably know these numbers by heart now

[Br3nB]

Hi @Ö-zil to the Arsenal!

 

Have you ever considered playing FM Touch? It would seemingly suit your playing style of tactics and transfers rather than all the additional fluff?

 

 

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

Gah, all the drama and calamity around Arsenal at the moment has made me fancy an Arsenal save for the first time in years but I've been struck by how far out of date the squad is in FM2018  I did download the FM2020 demo but found the user interface horrendous and the tactics creator has fallen backwards dramatically. From what I can see, I actually no longer have the tools to develop the style of play I want to implement 

[Justified]

1 minute ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

Gah, all the drama and calamity around Arsenal at the moment has made me fancy an Arsenal save for the first time in years but I've been struck by how far out of date the squad is in FM2018  I did download the FM2020 demo but found the user interface horrendous and the tactics creator has fallen backwards dramatically. From what I can see, I actually no longer have the tools to develop the style of play I want to implement 

Hey Ozil. May I ask what's stopping you? I'm just curious. I'm going to take a stab at its that you can't select certain roles and have a certain team shape at the same time? That was my struggle in the beginning too but actually got over it as I can manipulate basic roles into what I need. If that makes sense? 

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

Just now, Justified said:

Hey Ozil. May I ask what's stopping you? I'm just curious. I'm going to take a stab at its that you can't select certain roles and have a certain team shape at the same time? That was my struggle in the beginning too but actually got over it as I can manipulate basic roles into what I need. If that makes sense? 

Two things:

1. The interface for individual mentality - it's too vague, unclear and the uncertainty frustrates me.
2. The auto-assignment of Team Shape.

Recently I have become increasingly fond of disciplined tactics and using duties - rather than shape - to create compactness.

I'd like to experiment with two styles; neither of which I can use in FM2020.

A disciplined high-intensity pressing system with a hard-working midfield and direct wing play at pace.

A disciplined possession-focused passing system with creative midfielders and pace up front.

Putting both of these into Football Manager 2020, the tactics creator auto-assigns us to Very Fluid; which I don't want. I want the structure and disciplined play.

If I start adding in Attack duties to become more structured then I start creating massive disparity in individual mentalities across the team, losing all compactness.

Currently stumped.

[Pilcs]

1 hour ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

Two things:

1. The interface for individual mentality - it's too vague, unclear and the uncertainty frustrates me.
2. The auto-assignment of Team Shape.

Recently I have become increasingly fond of disciplined tactics and using duties - rather than shape - to create compactness.

I'd like to experiment with two styles; neither of which I can use in FM2020.

A disciplined high-intensity pressing system with a hard-working midfield and direct wing play at pace.

 

Hey O-zil, big fan of your work.

Just to give my thoughts regarding your points:

1. Agree completely with this. I'm actually still using @fmFutbolManager's mentality calculator from FM18 when creating my tactics on FM20. It might not be 100% accurate but I still find it very useful.
2. As for the auto-assignment of Team Shape, part of me actually agrees with this. Granted my understanding of the ME isn't that great but to put it simply:
   - Structured: Defenders defend, attackers attack (midfielders midfield ). So in my mind it makes sense that if you put a back line of defenders on defend and attackers on attack the Team Shape will be auto-assigned to Structured.
   - Fluid: Defenders can attack, attackers can defend, the team does both together. With the majority of the team having support roles not one person/s is responsible for attacking or defending therefore the whole team must do it together.

Unfortunately, as you have noted, your new found joy over disciplined tactics, using duties rather than shape to create compactness is definitely a banana skin when it comes to FM20. Especially considering that using the Very Attacking (Overload) mentality seems to move the Team Shape away from Structured. What might be a Structured Team Shape when using Balanced could be a Flexible Team Shape when using Very Attacking. To get the disciplined tactics that you are after it would definitely seem like you would have to use shape rather than duties, in order to create that compactness.

That being said I (like most of the other people on this site it seems) would love to see you push the boat out and pick up FM20. I would be particularly interested in seeing how you used the new training, mentoring groups and obviously the tactics creator.

P.S. My O-zil inspired flat 4-3-3 is going particularly well in my FM20 Mallorca save and has just moved from the Flexible stage to the Very Fluid stage .

Edited December 13, 2019 by Pilcs

[zlatanera]

3 hours ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

Putting both of these into Football Manager 2020, the tactics creator auto-assigns us to Very Fluid; which I don't want. I want the structure and disciplined play.

If I start adding in Attack duties to become more structured then I start creating massive disparity in individual mentalities across the team, losing all compactness.

Currently stumped.

It's even 'worse' than that - its just a meaningless label. Team Shape flat-out doesn't exist from FM19 onwards so all that label of Very Fluid is telling you is that you've selected a bunch of Su duties (which you already know). I think it effectively all plays as if on 'Flexible' so I still use that mentality calculator you link in this thread occasionally, just to check I'm not way off base with how I'm setting up a tactic.

As an aside, is that first system inspired by Liverpool? Looks and sounds like it is to me anyway. As a Manchester United fan it frustrates me to say they play what is to me the best football in the country week in, week out (our lightning counters can only be enjoyed the 10 games per season we play a team that considers themselves our equal). 

Edited December 14, 2019 by zlatanera

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

On 13/12/2019 at 23:46, Pilcs said:

Hey O-zil, big fan of your work.

Just to give my thoughts regarding your points:

1. Agree completely with this. I'm actually still using @fmFutbolManager's mentality calculator from FM18 when creating my tactics on FM20. It might not be 100% accurate but I still find it very useful.
2. As for the auto-assignment of Team Shape, part of me actually agrees with this. Granted my understanding of the ME isn't that great but to put it simply:
   - Structured: Defenders defend, attackers attack (midfielders midfield ). So in my mind it makes sense that if you put a back line of defenders on defend and attackers on attack the Team Shape will be auto-assigned to Structured.
   - Fluid: Defenders can attack, attackers can defend, the team does both together. With the majority of the team having support roles not one person/s is responsible for attacking or defending therefore the whole team must do it together.

Unfortunately, as you have noted, your new found joy over disciplined tactics, using duties rather than shape to create compactness is definitely a banana skin when it comes to FM20. Especially considering that using the Very Attacking (Overload) mentality seems to move the Team Shape away from Structured. What might be a Structured Team Shape when using Balanced could be a Flexible Team Shape when using Very Attacking. To get the disciplined tactics that you are after it would definitely seem like you would have to use shape rather than duties, in order to create that compactness.

That being said I (like most of the other people on this site it seems) would love to see you push the boat out and pick up FM20. I would be particularly interested in seeing how you used the new training, mentoring groups and obviously the tactics creator.

P.S. My O-zil inspired flat 4-3-3 is going particularly well in my FM20 Mallorca save and has just moved from the Flexible stage to the Very Fluid stage .

Yea I think the mentality calculator should still be reasonably accurate, as that's all still clearly going on under the hood. The tactics creator itself just has a much diminished ability to control it, unless I'm missing something.

 

On 14/12/2019 at 00:52, zlatanera said:

It's even 'worse' than that - its just a meaningless label. Team Shape flat-out doesn't exist from FM19 onwards so all that label of Very Fluid is telling you is that you've selected a bunch of Su duties (which you already know). I think it effectively all plays as if on 'Flexible' so I still use that mentality calculator you link in this thread occasionally, just to check I'm not way off base with how I'm setting up a tactic.

As an aside, is that first system inspired by Liverpool? Looks and sounds like it is to me anyway. As a Manchester United fan it frustrates me to say they play what is to me the best football in the country week in, week out (our lightning counters can only be enjoyed the 10 games per season we play a team that considers themselves our equal). 

I am certainly not up-to-date, but as of 2019 even whether it was just a label or actually doing something under the hood which we lost control over was ambiguous.

 

 

I've seen lots of people claiming that it's only a label, but it's been shown that it does have an effect in the tactics creator and I've never seen a comprehensive answer to this.

Personally I am inclined to be more confident in what's seen in the Tactics Creator. It's a ridiculous debate. If it's just a label, what on earth is the point?

Ironically we would know for sure, easily, if the interface for individual mentality was better 

Not wanting to take this thread too far off topic, I've just loaded up FM 2018 again 

[Robson 07]

I think there are 3 ways to create (team) compactness in recent FM's.

1. Duties.  E.g. Knowing 'attack' roles above 'defend' roles stretch a team.
2. How the Line of Engagement is used.
3. Stacking your formation similar to something you (O-zil) did with your Wales team.

You could do all three together but that may not be necessary.  Getting your shape from the above you could consider team fluidity simply in terms of adding or subtracting creative freedom.  I guess I'm saying it's a different recipe.  In your examples posted above on Friday, no, you may no longer be able to cook in the manner you once did in FM18 and before.  I'm just suggesting there might be other means of approaching the game to achieve what you want from it.

Appreciate you don't want a Team Shape debate derailing this read.  That's understandable.  Just finally though, the thread you pick out above was one I made a few comments in but felt I was quickly closed down each time as were some others.  Both a hugely disappointing thread and handling of a key FM feature by SI that, and I agree with you, it left questions unanswered about the game's mechanics.  

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

1 hour ago, Robson 07 said:

I think there are 3 ways to create (team) compactness in recent FM's.

1. Duties.  E.g. Knowing 'attack' roles above 'defend' roles stretch a team.
2. How the Line of Engagement is used.
3. Stacking your formation similar to something you (O-zil) did with your Wales team.

You could do all three together but that may not be necessary.  Getting your shape from the above you could consider team fluidity simply in terms of adding or subtracting creative freedom.  I guess I'm saying it's a different recipe.  In your examples posted above on Friday, no, you may no longer be able to cook in the manner you once did in FM18 and before.  I'm just suggesting there might be other means of approaching the game to achieve what you want from it.

Appreciate you don't want a Team Shape debate derailing this read.  That's understandable.  Just finally though, the thread you pick out above was one I made a few comments in but felt I was quickly closed down each time as were some others.  Both a hugely disappointing thread and handling of a key FM feature by SI that, and I agree with you, it left questions unanswered about the game's mechanics.  

Yes, I think that would be the only solution I could see. I'd end up with a Very Fluid shape and then have to use the More Disciplined TI. Extremely ambiguous as to where that would leave creative freedom given there's no way to know how much more disciplined the TI makes.

Another one I am not sure I could use in FM2020 would be a fluid counter attack, using attacking duties.

Very disappointing.

[Br3nB]

You should see what you can cook up on the FM20 demo, I know its not the clearest etc but I feel you would figure it out and then continue putting out amazing content!

[zlatanera]

6 hours ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

 

I've seen lots of people claiming that it's only a label, but it's been shown that it does have an effect in the tactics creator and I've never seen a comprehensive answer to this.

Personally I am inclined to be more confident in what's seen in the Tactics Creator. It's a ridiculous debate. If it's just a label, what on earth is the point?

Ironically we would know for sure, easily, if the interface for individual mentality was better 

Not wanting to take this thread too far off topic, I've just loaded up FM 2018 again 

I somehow missed that thread. Either way, I ripped off your 4-2-3-1 from this thread on FM19 with Lyon and won every competition I was in with an unbeaten league season, so clearly your tactical principles still work

I’m more likely to go back to FM18 just to abuse the old Tutoring system tbh, sucks in the new one how an 18 year old with 2 Determination probably won’t amount to much now. 

[Southern Buddie]

Ozil I find this thread absolutely outstanding!! So much do that I have decided to buy FM18 - having previously stubbornly sticking to FM11.

 

I was way nesting if you might be able to help me replicate some real life tactics, in the style that you do with yours? You seem to bring a simplicity and clarity to the game that just doesn’t come naturally to me yet.

 

I need a tutor.

Edited December 15, 2019 by Southern Buddie

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

19 hours ago, Br3nB said:

You should see what you can cook up on the FM20 demo, I know its not the clearest etc but I feel you would figure it out and then continue putting out amazing content!

A bit of vertical tiki-taka! 

 

18 hours ago, zlatanera said:

I somehow missed that thread. Either way, I ripped off your 4-2-3-1 from this thread on FM19 with Lyon and won every competition I was in with an unbeaten league season, so clearly your tactical principles still work

I’m more likely to go back to FM18 just to abuse the old Tutoring system tbh, sucks in the new one how an 18 year old with 2 Determination probably won’t amount to much now. 

Oh, fantastic  Yea I haven't even looked at the new tutoring. TBH it is exploitable in FM2018, as you can see from my squad.

 

17 hours ago, Southern Buddie said:

Ozil I find this thread absolutely outstanding!! So much do that I have decided to buy FM18 - having previously stubbornly sticking to FM11.

 

I was way nesting if you might be able to help me replicate some real life tactics, in the style that you do with yours? You seem to bring a simplicity and clarity to the game that just doesn’t come naturally to me yet.

 

I need a tutor.

 You're further behind than I am!

Of course. I've made a couple of threads, but let me know if there's anything you can't work out.

[Southern Buddie]

Thank you. Firstly, how do you decide what shape and mentality to use when developing a style of play. What are your main reasons behind choosing each one?

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

Back on topic  Season 10 has re-captured my attention, as we've started with something of a wobble.

We're second in the league and Porto have their best side in years.

..and an admittedly experimental side got smashed by a reasonably good, but not special Holland team.

Need to pay a bit more attention before I comment, but something isn't right.

Meanwhile, Brazil has produced another absolute gem.

[FlairRA]

Looks amazing, that 20 flair is the stuff of dreams! Unfortunately the teamwork seems a little low, I don't think selfish playmakers exist! 

[Pattric_b]

This question is completely random but which leagues did you load for this save? I'm going to start a similar save based on youth development with Arsenal I think.

Edited December 18, 2019 by Pattric_b

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

10 hours ago, Pattric_b said:

This question is completely random but which leagues did you load for this save? I'm going to start a similar save based on youth development with Arsenal I think.

My laptop isn't great so I think just Portugal + Prem, Serie A, La Liga, Bundesliga, Ligue 1 and later added Brazil and Argentina.

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

21 hours ago, FlairRA said:

Looks amazing, that 20 flair is the stuff of dreams! Unfortunately the teamwork seems a little low, I don't think selfish playmakers exist! 

Yea I'll be interested to see how it all balances out. I am not sure if it's coincidence or built in that different countries produce a different type of player but Brazil does seem to have a huge number of youngsters with high flair.

[leesmith90]

Hi @Ö-zil to the Arsenal! I’ve been following this thread religiously since it started and it continues to provide inspiration for my own saves. I’m playing FM 20 with arsenal, trying to build the team around a core of club grown players i.e. bellerin, Maitland-niles, willock, nelson and smith-Rowe. I’ve gone for 2 variations of the 4-3-3, one with a HB in the DM spot when facing 4-2-3-1 and a flat midfield 3 with a DLP when the opposition has no AM. I play positive football it’s intense pressing (quite similar to yourself).  I was wondering if you have any preference for PI’s depending on player positions? I have players like willock and Maitland-Niles with no PI’s at all. I use willock as an attacking midfield who I want to make driving runs from deep and Maitland-Niles is normally rotated between both fullback positions. I also have nelson, smith-Rowe and saka who will all play as inside forwards but I’m not sure what PI’s would suit them best to make them high scoring inside forwards? Maybe get into opposition area? Gets forward whenever possible? Any help appreciated. 

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

On 18/12/2019 at 11:46, leesmith90 said:

Hi @Ö-zil to the Arsenal! I’ve been following this thread religiously since it started and it continues to provide inspiration for my own saves. I’m playing FM 20 with arsenal, trying to build the team around a core of club grown players i.e. bellerin, Maitland-niles, willock, nelson and smith-Rowe. I’ve gone for 2 variations of the 4-3-3, one with a HB in the DM spot when facing 4-2-3-1 and a flat midfield 3 with a DLP when the opposition has no AM. I play positive football it’s intense pressing (quite similar to yourself).  I was wondering if you have any preference for PI’s depending on player positions? I have players like willock and Maitland-Niles with no PI’s at all. I use willock as an attacking midfield who I want to make driving runs from deep and Maitland-Niles is normally rotated between both fullback positions. I also have nelson, smith-Rowe and saka who will all play as inside forwards but I’m not sure what PI’s would suit them best to make them high scoring inside forwards? Maybe get into opposition area? Gets forward whenever possible? Any help appreciated. 

The current Arsenal squad is quite interesting, as they can play a number of different ways. That was the main reason I wanted to try FM2020 but the state of the tactics creator deterred me.

Torreira, Xhaka, Guendouzi and Ceballos are an extremely versatile midfield and could play in a 2, 3 or 4. Aubameyang, Lacazette, Pepe and Ozil are similarly versatile in attack. Bellerin and Tierney can bomb forward and are reasonably technical; or you could use one of the midfielders as inverted fullbacks. There's a lot of options.

The challenge is that the centre back partnership needs an urgent rebuild, and that's easier said than done. I'd be prepared to spend big on a left-sided centre back who is comfortable on the ball.

Personally I'd be gradually rotating in Maitland-Niles, Willock, Nelson, Saka, Martinelli and Smith-Rowe (although I've not massively looked at their attributes in FM2020); mainly in the cups and off the bench.

As for making Inside Forwards score you've got plenty of options - with a positive (control) mentality, a striker on Support naturally has a slightly lower mentality than AMR/Ls. So, IF(S) - CF(S) - IF(S) is where I'd start. IF(S) could get forward more and you could use PIs if they're not getting into goalscoring positions, but generally the Support duty should avoid them being disconnected from the rest of the team and keep them involved in play. You'd need the wingbacks providing width and then personally I'd choose a reasonably solid combination in the centre of the field as there's so many goals in that attack.

[craiigman]

Hey mate, how do you work out the numbers for the players? Do you have a calculator or just count?

I think I’m going to go back to FM18 for a while.

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

14 hours ago, craiigman said:

Hey mate, how do you work out the numbers for the players? Do you have a calculator or just count?

I think I’m going to go back to FM18 for a while.

If you check out the graphics forum there's a skin modification you can download which splits the individual mentality bar into separate bars and that's a massive help.

The mentality calculator is about 80-90% accurate but sometimes doesn't account for different mechanisms - absence of an Attack duty, various TIs etc.

[denen123]

Hey chief. Glad this thread has continued. 

Question: Do you have a certain pattern of in game tweaks? Like if you're winning and there's pressure what do you do? I know this can be tactic specific cause it might not work for another tactic, but I'm guessing you have some tweaks you are used to, right?

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

As this save approaches it's 10th season and with so much having been achieved, today I thought of an interesting question - what have a learned from the save, and what would I now do differently?

Firstly, this has easily been the most effort I have put into an academy save and the crux of the save has been simple.

1. Get young players tutored, quickly and extensively.
2. Develop until 18 in the excellent facilities at the Benfica academy.
3. Structure the entire club to facilitate appropriate game time for players at 18.
4. Use tactical team training and broad individual training to create well-rounded, intelligent technical players.

This approach has been fairly well-established over years of saves mainly with Ajax and Barcelona, and once again produced results but I have also learned a few new tricks.

#1 - use early years in the Academy to build positional versatility.

There's a certain romanticism around implementing a club philosophy from top to bottom; the obvious examples being Ajax and Barcelona playing 4-3-3 at all levels.

This is fine if you know you plan to play 4-3-3 forever, but as you'll have seen, I typically develop a playing style but frequently adapt formations to the players I have available, opposition etc. and, at times, would have liked more options. Plus it's infinitely better to go through the transitional period of learning a new position at U19 level where results are less important, as opposed to the pressure of the first team.

Considering the core of the 'golden generation', I'd like to see them learn the following positions.

Geronimo Rulli - GK
Gedson Fernandes - DR, WBR, MR, MC, AMR
Alex Pinto - DC
Victor Bobsin - DC
Alex Grimaldo - DL, WBL, ML, MC, AML
Florentino Luis - DMC, DC, MC
Tiago Dantas - MC, DMC
Xadas - MC, AMC
Jota - AMR, AML, AMC, MR, ML
Umaro Embalo - AML, AMR, AMC, ML
Joao Felix - AMC, MC, FC

This would have given me far more tactical flexibility to use 3 at the back or 2 up front depending on the opposition.

As the save went on I increasingly abandoned playing anything resembling the first team tactics; instead deliberately playing players in new positions so that by the time they arrived in the first team they can play 2, 3 or even 4 positions well.

At the time I used the 4-1-4-1 (which at the time I expected to be much more of a long-term feature); but would instead be using this:

Simply because it gives Florentino Luis a year at centre back; Dantas and Alvaro learning to play DM; Jota, Embalo and Oliveira game time at AMC and Joao Felix practice as a striker. I'd unlikely use this shape competitively, and would change it each year depending on the needs of the players coming through.

It now almost seems a wasted opportunity to play an U18 player in position.

#2 - develop broader attributes earlier.

This one is nitpicking. We undoubtedly developed incredibly technical, intelligent players extremely successfully however I would like to have developed slightly better finishing in attacking players, work rate across the board and a set-piece specialist.

The remedy would be simple.

1. I'd use finishing - or appropriate - individual training from a young age. I did this sporadically, but could have improved.
2. I'd experiment with one year of high Fitness team training and pressing-focused individual training Ball Winning Midfielder, Defensive Winger, Defensive Forward etc. in an attempt to bump up stamina, teamwork, work rate by a could of attribute points before they arrive in the first team.
3. I'd pick one player with reasonable set pieces and develop that as a individual focus. Again, I didn't do that in this save.

#3 - Highly Structured, Control tactics are excellent for young players.

Possibly the biggest learning point of this save has been discovering Highly Structured, Control as a playing style which is extremely suitable for technical young players, who perhaps do not yet have the decision making or intelligence to play more fluid systems.

I've toyed with various formations and the 4-3-3 seems particularly suitable.

In fact, so much so that I couldn't resist but load up an older version of the save file and see how they could line up.

Even going right back to the beginning, you can see that their attributes are already pretty suitable.

As if the last 10 seasons had all been a dream, I gave it a trial run in the Supertaca Candido de Oliveira and it was beautiful to watch. Probably the players I've grown most attached to in any version of FM dismantling Primeira Liga quality opposition at 16-18 years old 

I watched the full-match and was actually shocked to see that they didn't give the ball away for more than 2 minutes of the game and scored a goal in that time.

Dantas managed 130 passes on his professional debut, whilst João Felix scored 2 goals.

What a group of players 

Lots of deja vu and nostalgia going on here! 

[craiigman]

7 hours ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

As this save approaches it's 10th season and with so much having been achieved, today I thought of an interesting question - what have a learned from the save, and what would I now do differently?

Firstly, this has easily been the most effort I have put into an academy save and the crux of the save has been simple.

1. Get young players tutored, quickly and extensively.
2. Develop until 18 in the excellent facilities at the Benfica academy.
3. Structure the entire club to facilitate appropriate game time for players at 18.
4. Use tactical team training and broad individual training to create well-rounded, intelligent technical players.

This approach has been fairly well-established over years of saves mainly with Ajax and Barcelona, and once again produced results but I have also learned a few new tricks.

#1 - use early years in the Academy to build positional versatility.

There's a certain romanticism around implementing a club philosophy from top to bottom; the obvious examples being Ajax and Barcelona playing 4-3-3 at all levels.

This is fine if you know you plan to play 4-3-3 forever, but as you'll have seen, I typically develop a playing style but frequently adapt formations to the players I have available, opposition etc. and, at times, would have liked more options. Plus it's infinitely better to go through the transitional period of learning a new position at U19 level where results are less important, as opposed to the pressure of the first team.

Considering the core of the 'golden generation', I'd like to see them learn the following positions.

Geronimo Rulli - GK
Gedson Fernandes - DR, WBR, MR, MC, AMR
Alex Pinto - DC
Victor Bobsin - DC
Alex Grimaldo - DL, WBL, ML, MC, AML
Florentino Luis - DMC, DC, MC
Tiago Dantas - MC, DMC
Xadas - MC, AMC
Jota - AMR, AML, AMC, MR, ML
Umaro Embalo - AML, AMR, AMC, ML
Joao Felix - AMC, MC, FC

This would have given me far more tactical flexibility to use 3 at the back or 2 up front depending on the opposition.

As the save went on I increasingly abandoned playing anything resembling the first team tactics; instead deliberately playing players in new positions so that by the time they arrived in the first team they can play 2, 3 or even 4 positions well.

At the time I used the 4-1-4-1 (which at the time I expected to be much more of a long-term feature); but would instead be using this:

Simply because it gives Florentino Luis a year at centre back; Dantas and Alvaro learning to play DM; Jota, Embalo and Oliveira game time at AMC and Joao Felix practice as a striker. I'd unlikely use this shape competitively, and would change it each year depending on the needs of the players coming through.

It now almost seems a wasted opportunity to play an U18 player in position.

#2 - develop broader attributes earlier.

This one is nitpicking. We undoubtedly developed incredibly technical, intelligent players extremely successfully however I would like to have developed slightly better finishing in attacking players, work rate across the board and a set-piece specialist.

The remedy would be simple.

1. I'd use finishing - or appropriate - individual training from a young age. I did this sporadically, but could have improved.
2. I'd experiment with one year of high Fitness team training and pressing-focused individual training Ball Winning Midfielder, Defensive Winger, Defensive Forward etc. in an attempt to bump up stamina, teamwork, work rate by a could of attribute points before they arrive in the first team.
3. I'd pick one player with reasonable set pieces and develop that as a individual focus. Again, I didn't do that in this save.

#3 - Highly Structured, Control tactics are excellent for young players.

Possibly the biggest learning point of this save has been discovering Highly Structured, Control as a playing style which is extremely suitable for technical young players, who perhaps do not yet have the decision making or intelligence to play more fluid systems.

I've toyed with various formations and the 4-3-3 seems particularly suitable.

In fact, so much so that I couldn't resist but load up an older version of the save file and see how they could line up.

Even going right back to the beginning, you can see that their attributes are already pretty suitable.

As if the last 10 seasons had all been a dream, I gave it a trial run in the Supertaca Candido de Oliveira and it was beautiful to watch. Probably the players I've grown most attached to in any version of FM dismantling Primeira Liga quality opposition at 16-18 years old 

I watched the full-match and was actually shocked to see that they didn't give the ball away for more than 2 minutes of the game and scored a goal in that time.

Dantas managed 130 passes on his professional debut, whilst João Felix scored 2 goals.

What a group of players 

Lots of deja vu and nostalgia going on here! 

How do you set the u19 formation?

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

3 hours ago, craiigman said:

How do you set the u19 formation?

 

Staff responsibilities -> U19s 

[MadOnion]

Another great post O-zil.

With the absence of team shape in FM19/20, roles/duties are definitely more important if you want to achieve a more structured style of play (if you believe team fluidity is more than a label).
Also, since the training aspect of the game has been revamped, doing a youth development is definitely more challenging (and time consuming) since there are a gazillion of ways to train your players. If you're a control freak, this is actually a good thing.
The biggest challenge is spreading good personalities across the team, since the old tutoring was overpowered, signing players with high-reputation/good personalities may end up being pointless.

The academy is still bearing fruits in FM20 and with the addition of the u23 team, managing a club with over 70 players is truly a challenge.
I never use pre-sets although they're useful if you want your assistant manager to train a certain style of play (it also helps if your assistant manager also likes the said style of play). You can always reset all TIs/PIs/OIs and start with a clean slate.

Though I love FM18, it feels natural to move on and accept the game has changed.

Edited December 24, 2019 by MadOnion

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

2 hours ago, MadOnion said:

Though I love FM18, it feels natural to move on and accept the game has changed.

Yes, I do agree. Football Manager 2018 has been an absolute classic - best ever, for me - but the database is getting increasingly out of date.

I've got as far as downloading the FM2020 demo at least  I've toyed with the "upgraded" tactics creator but really do not like it at all.

I've attempted to understand what's going on under the hood but cannot get my head around it at all. It does seem that fluidity is now simply a label, as individual mentalities do not move at all when you manipulate the others to change shape.

The one that's really baffling me is that I have an Inside Forward (Support) in a Positive and Very Fluid tactical style, where the individual mentality is described as Very Attacking. In old terms, an Inside Forward (Support) in a Very Fluid, Control style would have a mentality of 12; surely the interface would not describe 12 out of 20 as very attacking? Even if fluidity is just a label, an IF(S) would have a maximum individual mentality of 13 in a control system, which still seems strange to describe as very attacking. In fact, I don't seem to be able to get a mentality higher than that, even if I play Very Attacking mentality and switch to Inside Forward (Attack) it's still described as very attacking. In the same Very Attacking team mentality a DLP(S) is described as Positive which would be 13-16 depending on shape in the old system.

Unless I have gone blind, the Look for Overlap instruction has also been removed so it seems incredibly difficult to get your AMR/L on the same mentality as your DR/L to create compactness on the flanks.

Edit: ah, interesting. They've started assigning different mentalities to different roles rather than simply based on duty, mentality and shape. Winger (Support) is positive, whilst Inside Forward (Support) is very attacking.

Edited December 24, 2019 by Ö-zil to the Arsenal!

[MadOnion]

I know what you mean, it's too ambiguous and lacks context.
I sort of think in ranges, so very attacking anything from 16-20, attacking from 12-15, positive 9-11 etc...

So I decided to fire up FM20 again.

Positive - Very Fluid

The Inside Forward (Support) becomes Very Attacking, with the Wing back (Support) Positive.

If you use Look for overlap/underlap, their mentalities are affected:

The Inside Forward (Support) down to Attacking, with the Wing back (Support) now Attacking, creating the compactness you're after.

If you use both Look for overlap/underlap and Focus Play Down Left/Right, the IF-S stays Attacking but the WB-S now becomes Very Attacking.

If you use Focus Play Through the Middle the CBs go from Cautious to Balanced. The SK-U also becomes Attacking

To be honest, not a lot has changed , if you think in ranges like I do. It's more of a case to adjust the brain to think in labels rather than numbers 

Edited December 24, 2019 by MadOnion

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

21 hours ago, MadOnion said:

I know what you mean, it's too ambiguous and lacks context.
I sort of think in ranges, so very attacking anything from 16-20, attacking from 12-15, positive 9-11 etc...

So I decided to fire up FM20 again.

Positive - Very Fluid

The Inside Forward (Support) becomes Very Attacking, with the Wing back (Support) Positive.

If you use Look for overlap/underlap, their mentalities are affected:

The Inside Forward (Support) down to Attacking, with the Wing back (Support) now Attacking, creating the compactness you're after.

If you use both Look for overlap/underlap and Focus Play Down Left/Right, the IF-S stays Attacking but the WB-S now becomes Very Attacking.

If you use Focus Play Through the Middle the CBs go from Cautious to Balanced. The SK-U also becomes Attacking

To be honest, not a lot has changed , if you think in ranges like I do. It's more of a case to adjust the brain to think in labels rather than numbers 

I'd need to watch games in the match engine, but my concern would be that 4 players on an Attacking mentality would prevent you from playing a possession based system. I guess a lot depends on their definition of attacking; but in old terms I'd be aiming for an individual mentality of 11-12.

In order to replicate the system I used in the previous post I'd be looking for:

GK     Cautious/Balanced
DR     Positive
DC     Cautious/Balanced
DC     Cautious/Balanced
DL     Positive
DMC Cautious/Balanced
MCR  Positive
MCL  Attacking
AMR  Positive
AML  Positive
AMC  Attacking

Looking at this I think I'd need to totally re-visit my use of Team Mentality. 

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

Following on from the theme of my last post, another lesson is to be more aggressive in implementing a playing style and bringing in young players.

Continuing the earlier save, I experimented giving much earlier league debuts and was extremely encouraged.

Highly structured possession football suits the young players perfectly. Admittedly this was much more sterile, but the degree of control is exceptional when you consider that most of the team is 16-18 years old with current ability of 1.5-2.5 stars (aside from Grimaldo, who is more advanced).

Dantas, in particular, is in absolute control of Primeira Liga opposition at 16 years old and 1.5 star ability.

The passing triangles created in this shape are excellent and the lower tempo and structure seems to suit the young players ability level well.

 

Very satisfying to watch and I'd be interested to know if it's possible to create this in FM2020.

Edited December 25, 2019 by Ö-zil to the Arsenal!

[vrbrasa]

13 horas atrás, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! disse:

Following on from the theme of my last post, another lesson is to be more aggressive in implementing a playing style and bringing in young players.

Continuing the earlier save, I experimented giving much earlier league debuts and was extremely encouraged.

Highly structured possession football suits the young players perfectly. Admittedly this was much more sterile, but the degree of control is exceptional when you consider that most of the team is 16-18 years old with current ability of 1.5-2.5 stars (aside from Grimaldo, who is more advanced).

Dantas, in particular, is in absolute control of Primeira Liga opposition at 16 years old and 1.5 star ability.

The passing triangles created in this shape are excellent and the lower tempo and structure seems to suit the young players ability level well.

 

Very satisfying to watch and I'd be interested to know if it's possible to create this in FM2020.

hi ozil, do you think that you can continue all year with the sub18? imagine you continue the save from this, you would up the level of creative freedom till fluid and the the mentality till overload?  

[jordan_ye]

Hey Ozil! I noticed that crazy passing stats for Dantas. Speaking of the passing stats for a playmaker, how can I make my Regista become the player that pass the most? Since I'm trying to implement a possession-based style with 3 midfielders. My set up is a Regista with 2 box-to-box. My Regista is usually underplayed while my two box-to-box midfielders always become the players who pass the most even though I own a high possession every game. Do you have any advice to build a passing hierarchy in midfield?

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

9 hours ago, vrbrasa said:

hi ozil, do you think that you can continue all year with the sub18? imagine you continue the save from this, you would up the level of creative freedom till fluid and the the mentality till overload?  

Based upon those first 2 games, I think they could play the majority of league games. I would expect Porto, Sporting and Braga to be a stretch. I'd also expect more slip ups, over the course of a season.

Overload is one possible evolution. At this moment, I feel that I've done that style quite extensively so would possibly try something else. I'd also be very interested to see how Highly Structured Control looks as players develop. Based on what I've seen so far, it could potentially be quite interesting.

The immediate evolution I'd like to see would be adding a 2nd 4-3-3 (with wingbacks overlapping inside forwards and a more reserved midfield) and a back 3 variant.

 

7 hours ago, jordan_ye said:

Hey Ozil! I noticed that crazy passing stats for Dantas. Speaking of the passing stats for a playmaker, how can I make my Regista become the player that pass the most? Since I'm trying to implement a possession-based style with 3 midfielders. My set up is a Regista with 2 box-to-box. My Regista is usually underplayed while my two box-to-box midfielders always become the players who pass the most even though I own a high possession every game. Do you have any advice to build a passing hierarchy in midfield?

Regista is a really difficult role to pull off.

The first thing I would do is to ensure the regista is the team's sole playmaker. Then I would make sure that my Team Mentality, Shape and TIs combine to give the Regista a "Positive" or 10 (minimum) to 12 mentality, if you're looking at the numbers.

The reason I say that it's difficult is that I have never found that it sits well in a midfield 3 as it gets forward by default I find the midfield gets on top of each other. Also it's the least defensively minded (as it gets forward) so you need to structure your team to a) give the regista space and b) make sure you're still defensively covered.

A final comment is that the Regista role sounds cool, but ultimately it's just a set of preset instructions; in many cases - particularly if you're playing possession football - a Deeplying or Roaming Playmaker is possibly closer to what you're looking for. I'm not saying don't use it, but just make sure it's for a tangible reason rather than the cool name 

[howard moon]

5 minutes ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

The immediate evolution I'd like to see would be adding a 2nd 4-3-3 (with wingbacks overlapping inside forwards and a more reserved midfield) and a back 3 variant.

Would be really interested to see this. I’ve been thinking about how City and Liverpool play 4-3-3 but attack in a 2-3-5 shape in different ways: 

- City often play with inverted wingbacks allowing their CMs to play high up the pitch and their wingers to stay wide 

- Liverpool have a narrower front 3 and more reserved midfielders allowing their fullbacks to be in the front 5

That’s perhaps an oversimplification but a good starting point on how these teams play. 

You’ve done the City variant in this thread but I don’t recall seeing the Liverpool variant. I’m not sure how you’d create the attacking width from the full backs - especially related to the CMs, without attacking duties.

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

1 hour ago, howard moon said:

Would be really interested to see this. I’ve been thinking about how City and Liverpool play 4-3-3 but attack in a 2-3-5 shape in different ways: 

- City often play with inverted wingbacks allowing their CMs to play high up the pitch and their wingers to stay wide 

- Liverpool have a narrower front 3 and more reserved midfielders allowing their fullbacks to be in the front 5

That’s perhaps an oversimplification but a good starting point on how these teams play. 

You’ve done the City variant in this thread but I don’t recall seeing the Liverpool variant. I’m not sure how you’d create the attacking width from the full backs - especially related to the CMs, without attacking duties.

My idea for Benfica would be the 4-3-3 which becomes a 2-3-5 in attack:

The alternative 4-3-3 would be a deeper midfield and more advanced wingbacks and inside forwards, creating more of a 3-4-3 in attack.

Then a back 3 variant, which would require quite a bit of retraining yet but would be a useful option.

I actually see Klopp's Liverpool quite differently. To me, their pressing, high line and attacking football would certainly be Overload. Given the discipline Klopp has instilled and the defenders play I'd say Highly Structured.

This distributes individual mentalities as follows:
 

      15
17          17
   10    14
       8
17  8    8  17
       8

This would see Salah and Mane attacking space around Firminho, Robertson and Alexander-Arnold rampaging down the flanks and a reasonably reserved midfield.

I wouldn't be inclined to use this with Benfica - simply because Benfica have a lot of creative central players, where as this is more suitable for hard-working runners - but I do think that it would work extremely well. I'd actually love to see Arsenal play like this with Aubameyang, Lacazette, Pepe, Tierney and Bellerin.

Edited December 26, 2019 by Ö-zil to the Arsenal!

[kandersson]

This thread is everything!

The last back 3 formation looks like a strikerless edition of the Ajax 3-4-3 diamond (except for current highly structured shape), with IWB's as de facto central midfielders and RPM as a deeper No.10. Pretty much my FM wet dream .

[Br3nB]

On 24/12/2019 at 12:53, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

Yes, I do agree. Football Manager 2018 has been an absolute classic - best ever, for me - but the database is getting increasingly out of date.

I've got as far as downloading the FM2020 demo at least  I've toyed with the "upgraded" tactics creator but really do not like it at all.

I've attempted to understand what's going on under the hood but cannot get my head around it at all. It does seem that fluidity is now simply a label, as individual mentalities do not move at all when you manipulate the others to change shape.

The one that's really baffling me is that I have an Inside Forward (Support) in a Positive and Very Fluid tactical style, where the individual mentality is described as Very Attacking. In old terms, an Inside Forward (Support) in a Very Fluid, Control style would have a mentality of 12; surely the interface would not describe 12 out of 20 as very attacking? Even if fluidity is just a label, an IF(S) would have a maximum individual mentality of 13 in a control system, which still seems strange to describe as very attacking. In fact, I don't seem to be able to get a mentality higher than that, even if I play Very Attacking mentality and switch to Inside Forward (Attack) it's still described as very attacking. In the same Very Attacking team mentality a DLP(S) is described as Positive which would be 13-16 depending on shape in the old system.

Unless I have gone blind, the Look for Overlap instruction has also been removed so it seems incredibly difficult to get your AMR/L on the same mentality as your DR/L to create compactness on the flanks.

Edit: ah, interesting. They've started assigning different mentalities to different roles rather than simply based on duty, mentality and shape. Winger (Support) is positive, whilst Inside Forward (Support) is very attacking.

Hi Ozil,

 

Sorry to criticise but I feel your best work is when talking in simple football terms rather than trying to dissect the game under the hood and turn it into numbers etc. Thats going down the route of Cleon and others which in turn over complicates it for the average joe!

All of the best discussions on your numerous amazing threads have been simple football theory rather than theorising about in game mechanics. 

[cristhianlinhatti]

hello, ozil

can you do more details about PI's in your Klopp's system?

tks