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Okay. Would Big Sam have brought it home?

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Nah I don't think so. He would have had the same issue that Southgate had. No midfield.

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Think we 100 percent lose that penalty shoot-out with Big Sam in charge

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I can never picture Kevin Nolan holding that trophy above his head so no.

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The only thing he would have brought home was an off shore account

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He would have played Kane upfront... Probably win the group then get turned over by Brazil

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Allardyce said we should drop Trippier against Sweden, I wouldn't trust him to have done better.

I don't think he'd have focused on the mentality quite like Southgate would have. I know he's quite underrated for some of his techniques especially from his days at Bolton but I can't imagine the team being so relaxed and happy as they were with Southgate and I think that was a huge part of us doing well.

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1 minute ago, Pukey said:

Allardyce said we should drop Trippier against Sweden, I wouldn't trust him to have done better.

Weirdly, I think we'd have been worse at set pieces under Big Sam...

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14 minutes ago, westy8chimp said:

He would have played Kane upfront... Probably win the group then get turned over by Brazil

Don't talk wet. Kevin Davies would be leading the line.

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24 minutes ago, craigcwwe said:

No, we'd have got knocked out by Colombia in 90 minutes. 

As if we would have got as far as the Colombia game :D

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I thought about this the other day and yes I think we'd have been better under Sam but got no further. He is a good motivator, tactically more astute, we'd have been less possession based and more direct but we wouldn't have had a 1 man midfield and Sam would change things if not going to plan.

I think we'd have still finished 2nd in the group and had the same route, I'd still have expected a tough game Vs Colombia but I reckon we'd have won without penalties, still beat Sweden and the game against Croatia would've been less open and we'd probably have lost on penalties instead of aet :)

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If quarter-finals were considered the most realistic expectations, than Allardyce would've gotten par for the course. Southgate obviously overachieved. You got to take some irony into the fact that England was most effective through set-pieces, Sam's bread and butter.

Allardyce would've met the same concerns with Southgate - no decent CMs, and lack of depth on the wings who aren't Sterling or Rashford. How Southgate solved this problem was to not play a CM at all and overcome the lack of quality CMs with three ball-playing defenders, a DM, two AMs, and wing-backs.

The Big Sam Way of solving this would still be playing a back 4 of most likely Walker-Smalling-Dier-Bertrand/Rose, forcefully shove in Wilshere/Shelvey next to captain Henderson, Alli as a #10 with Rashford on the left and Sterling on the right. Kane of course would be up top. Hart and Rooney might still find their way into the squad as "experienced veterans". Walcott and Carroll might get last chances. Trippier would be on the bench because Walker plays his position. Likewise for Stones, but could see start over Dier in an Allardyne team. Guys like RLC and Trent won't get near the squad. The team might play better football and tactically more stable and familiar, but that team would be all sorts of unlikable, but might still end up limping into a semifinal.

What England needs is Southgate to study about tactics more. His heart is in the right place, but his decision-making could be worked on a bit.

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If we'd got out of the group (and that's a big if - Tunisia vs an Allardyce team could go either way), we'd surely have lost to Colombia. Big Sam would've had England trying to win games by kicking people, and it seems that Colombia do that better than England ever could.

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Would have been knocked out in the group stage. 

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1 minute ago, Bigwig said:

What was Sam’s lineup and formation?

9-0-0-0-1

Rose, Shawcross, Smalling, Jones, Cahill, Stones, Maguire, Dier, Walker

--------

------

Kane

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3 minutes ago, westy8chimp said:

9-0-0-0-1

Rose, Shawcross, Smalling, Jones, Cahill, Stones, Maguire, Dier, Walker

--------

------

Kane

I think he would have done a great job. If you don't concede you cant lose! 

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2 hours ago, Lucas Weatherby said:

Would have been knocked out in the group stage. 

Complete rubbish.

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For all anyone knows you could be world champions now had Big Sam been at the helm (not that I believe that).

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1 minute ago, Baptista_8 said:

Complete rubbish.

Is it? Barely beat Slovakia in his only game in charge, Lallana scores in injury time. Not a stretch to doubt he’d have struggles setting up the side to beat what we had in the group. And we certainly wouldn’t have been as effective on set pieces. 

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, Lucas Weatherby said:

Is it? Barely beat Slovakia in his only game in charge, Lallana scores in injury time. Not a stretch to doubt he’d have struggles setting up the side to beat what we had in the group. And we certainly wouldn’t have been as effective on set pieces. 

Southgate beat them 2-1, at home.

Edited by Baptista_8

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6 minutes ago, Nordan said:

For all anyone knows you could be world champions now had Big Sam been at the helm (not that I believe that).

No-one knows how he'd have done. But people who write him off as a terrible manager are wrong IMO.

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Southgate is a lovely bloke... think he bought a lot of positives to the England team. But it was clear he didn't know how to implement a 532 properly... he didn't know how to get the best out of Kane or Sterling... the reason we lost, imo, we didn't have a clear plan of how to attack and create chances consistently.

Fat Sam is the opposite... detestable guy, probably wouldn't have had the team as behind him.. but he can setup a team to beat the opposition.. he's more tactically astute and open to change on game by game basis.

I wouldn't have enjoyed his style either, but think we would have stood a greater chance.

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3 minutes ago, Baptista_8 said:

people who write him off as a terrible manager are wrong IMO.

Yep. I think he's proven many times he's a pretty good manager. Might not be suited to national team manager, seems to enjoy being in the thick of things too much (or what you English folk say). :)

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1 hour ago, Baptista_8 said:

Complete rubbish.

I don't think it's that much of a stretch. Even with Southgate, I was absolutely not convinced we'd get out of the group - Tunisia was always going to be a banana skin and we were very close to slipping on it even without Allardyce in charge.

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A big side would have humped us 4-0 with this fraud in charge, mesmerising just how bad he made Everton look.

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I reckon with Sam that none of Pickford, Maguire or Tripper play a single minute in the tournament. He almost certainly has Hart still in goal, possibly still starts Cahill in defence, with Rooney being taken to the tournament a real possibility, him actually starting wouldn't even be completely out the question imo. Wilshere and maybe even Walcott probably end up going too I reckon, 

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Posted (edited)

We simply don't know, who would have predicted Southgate and Martinez would be good international managers? I think we should all show a bit more humility with our footballing opinions and just admit we will never know. 

Edited by Coulthard's Jaw

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9 minutes ago, Bigwig said:

Are they though?

Martinez has done a fantastic job with Belgium. He's lost two games in his entire run as Belgium manager, his very first match in a loss to Spain, and the WC SF Vs. France. 

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1 hour ago, Coulthard's Jaw said:

We simply don't know, who would have predicted Southgate and Martinez would be good international managers? 

No one, absolutely no one would have predicted that they'd be good international managers and to be fair they'd all have been spot on as both are dog **** :thup:

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45 minutes ago, JDownie said:

Martinez has done a fantastic job with Belgium. He's lost two games in his entire run as Belgium manager, his very first match in a loss to Spain, and the WC SF Vs. France. 

That's true but didn't they avoid any decent ranking nation for two years in the build up to the WC?

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4 minutes ago, craigcwwe said:

That's true but didn't they avoid any decent ranking nation for two years in the build up to the WC?

They weren't frequently playing top sides no, but Martinez has done a good job all the same. They beat Brazil and England twice, deserves credit for that if nothing else. 

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Beating England with that squad doesn't deserve praise let's be fair, the difference in quality between the squads is massive!

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Martinez won only one game against a top tier team.

It was against Brazil.

Also won against England and that would be it. No other decent teams he won against. Best one was Japan.

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Martinez did better than I thought he would, but then again, you wouldn't expect any team with the likes of Courtois, Vertongen, Alderveld, KDB, Hazard, Lukaku, Mertens etc etc to get whooped by anyone or struggle to beat pretty much anyone. One could argue Martinez even underachieved given the talent Belgium has right now.

As for Big Sam: his football must be some of the most dire, most boring, most negative, most turgid football I've ever seen. He does the rescue-act jobs he's brought in to do but it would have been awful to watch and I highly doubt we'd have gotten to the SF with him - even with an easy pathway. It would have been a functional and rigid 4-5-1 or 5-4-1 at best with lots of hoof balls up to Kane or Rooney (no doubt Sam would have wanted him to not retire). Southgate is no Pep but Sam's football is much worse. I can't imagine "Allerdyci" getting the Madrid job let alone leading England to glory.

(But even if we did get to a SF or a final or even win the thing with Sam at the helm, it would be all about him and he'd never miss an opportunity to tell us how brilliant he is. Of course, if we'd have crashed out or been beaten by Tunisia it would all be the player's fault).

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