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anagain

Player unhappy, but can't speak to him. Why?

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I have a defender in my team who keeps complaining, and as he is influential he tends to bring support with him. The problem is I can't speak to him to try to resolve the issue, it's brought down the dressing room atmosphere and no other play, bar my vice captain, will talk to him, and my VC failed to change his mind.

To top it all off I've had a board takeover and the new chairman stated he wanted to bring his own manager with him. For that reason he's decided to wait to assess my management of the team and maintained a transfer embargo. It's pre-season, I'm trying to improve the team and I'm losing players I wanted to all this crap.

It's little things like this that annoy the hell out of me in FM, and mainly why I've found it hard to keep the enthusiasm for this game over the past few years. Why can't I speak to the player again (after the intial discussion)? Why can't I speak to my chairman and discuss my position with him, or ask him to remove the embargo for the sake of the club?

Ther game has some great ideas when it comes to interaction with your players. I like the idea behind it all, but it feels to me that SI fail to follow it through and input all the interactions that should be possible. My save has become seriously screwed for reasons that should easily be overcome in real life.

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4 minutes ago, anagain said:

Why can't I speak to the player again (after the intial discussion)?

Presumably, it's to add some sort of weight to that initial conversation - that what you say matters. If you could keep going back and having another conversation about the same thing, there doesn't seem to me too much importance over what you say. You'll eventually be able to say something that "works".

Players drop their issues eventually though.

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I suppose that makes sense, just so damn infuriating when you have a player that seems determined to ruin the club atmosphere and it feels like there's so little you can do. Laughable that all I did was criticise their performance in a friendly match. Said they needed to perform better in the matches that mattered.

Matters less now, anyway. The new chairman sacked me. Wanted his own man.

 

I just feel sometimes that FM doesn't have enough ways to interract when the game seems to focus a great deal on interraction now. Often feels like there is nothing I can do to turn things around when I hit a dressing room snag, and as performances really do deteriorate badly in these situations it can easily ruin a season.

I really wanmt to enjoy FM like I used to, but the game seems determined to not let me.

 

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9 hours ago, HUNT3R said:

If you could keep going back and having another conversation about the same thing, there doesn't seem to me too much importance over what you say. You'll eventually be able to say something that "works".

 

Isn't this how real life works though?  I mean with grown ups - which I accept that not all footballers are (nor managers I guess) - you just keep talking until you both get to a point where something "works". 

 

This mechanism doesn't exist in FM World; you choose the wrong option once and that's it - mutiny!  Especially irritating when the option you choose ends up being slightly but ever-so-importantly different to what ends up being said.

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16 minutes ago, Flashman said:

 

Isn't this how real life works though?  I mean with grown ups - which I accept that not all footballers are (nor managers I guess) - you just keep talking until you both get to a point where something "works". 

 

This mechanism doesn't exist in FM World; you choose the wrong option once and that's it - mutiny!  Especially irritating when the option you choose ends up being slightly but ever-so-importantly different to what ends up being said.

You are nearly always given 1-3 chances to take it back and give in in the initial conversation. It's not a case of one wrong click and you're done for. 

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Just now, Flashman said:

 

Isn't this how real life works though?  I mean with grown ups - which I accept that not all footballers are (nor managers I guess) - you just keep talking until you both get to a point where something "works". 

 

This mechanism doesn't exist in FM World; you choose the wrong option once and that's it - mutiny!  Especially irritating when the option you choose ends up being slightly but ever-so-importantly different to what ends up being said.

There needs to be some sort of gameplay element and a point for it to be in. Like I asked - what would be the point if you could just run through the possibilities until something clicks?

But the second part is something I don't agree with at all. It's not black and white, either being a happy player or all hell breaking loose. I've had a number of chats recently and I've stuck to my guns almost all the time, with no mutiny. Not even in one chat. It always follows a similar pattern. Player asks for something I don't agree with and I won't cave. I give a straight, honest answer to him about why - like I can't offer a new contract to everyone who is bid on, every time. I'd go bankrupt. That's just an example. I most cases, my answer is accepted. When it isn't, I do sometimes turn the player to my side with my follow up answer. If not, the squad obviously comes to speak to me. Every single time I've managed to get the squad to agree. And we're talking about multiple subjects, different players and different circumstances and answers/reasons. So no mutiny. One player sulks for a little while, but then eventually realises he's wrong and we're all good again.

In this case though, I have a good rep and qualification for my level and I've proven myself as a manager. So just on that alone, I have respect in my FM world and so my opinions and words carry weight and people tend to believe what I say. Had I been a new manager, with no track record and maybe even at a club where I'd consider myself lucky to have landed the job, I'd maybe be a bit more lenient and give in more. I have done that in the past when I was new and inexperienced, coming into a club with a bunch of tight knit, high rep players. It'll be difficult to break them apart, especially if I don't command enough respect for them to consider my views.

So you get a first explanation. Then a second chance. And finally, you can prevent mutiny if those 2 fail, by handling the issue with the team. That's 3 chances to turn around a possible mutiny.

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At least give us the option to tell him to no longer come in. He stays home, thereby not disrupting the squad as much. He can come back when his attitude improves or he's open to conversation. Alternatively he can stay home until he's transferred. :P

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I like angry players. I upset one of my star strikers. He has 2 goals in the last 3 matches. 

Also had a player score a hattrick the very game after he became upset.

 

:D

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22 minutes ago, isignedupfornorealreason said:

At least give us the option to tell him to no longer come in. He stays home, thereby not disrupting the squad as much.

That would be the nuclear option, I think. Easier to transfer list him and put him in the U23 squad.

I think a lot of these problems come from managers who think it's somehow more realistic if they take over professional clubs when they only have Sunday league and no badges. That's completely unrealistic. I'll always choose the appropriate level of experience for the club I'm taking on, and I always rank up my tactical coaching attribute to the maximum available. I've lost count of the number of times team leaders have come to complain about the sale of a player, and I always say he didn't fit my tactical approach. They always back down because "you know what you're doing with tactics".

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1 hour ago, warlock said:

That would be the nuclear option, I think. Easier to transfer list him and put him in the U23 squad.

But if I think his attitude stinks, I don't want his attitude stinking up the U23's where my youth prospects are. 

So, it would be nice to have the nuclear option. Plus, it would let me roleplay the authoritarian manager that says 'my way or the highway.'  I'm all for more options to resolve, or escalate situations. :D

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I agree with OP that it can be irritating that you can't talk to them again, particularly in cases where you made a promise that was barely unfulfilled i.e. missing out on CL on goal difference or something. One thing I would really like is that if you promise a new contract and the agent puts in a huge fee that the club can't afford, which then leads to the promise being broken, you would have one chance to ask the player to consider clamping down on / sacking his agent. 

But overall I have no problem with it. I like how some unhappy players perform terribly and some don't - kinda reflects real life where Coutinho wanted to leave yet was still great (similar to Ronaldo in 08-09) whilst others like Fabinho were far from their capabilities (which is presumably part of how Liverpool got him for such a reasonable price).

Edited by zlatanera

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On 09/07/2018 at 11:08, anagain said:

I suppose that makes sense, just so damn infuriating when you have a player that seems determined to ruin the club atmosphere and it feels like there's so little you can do. Laughable that all I did was criticise their performance in a friendly match. Said they needed to perform better in the matches that mattered.

Matters less now, anyway. The new chairman sacked me. Wanted his own man.

 

I just feel sometimes that FM doesn't have enough ways to interract when the game seems to focus a great deal on interraction now. Often feels like there is nothing I can do to turn things around when I hit a dressing room snag, and as performances really do deteriorate badly in these situations it can easily ruin a season.

I really wanmt to enjoy FM like I used to, but the game seems determined to not let me.

 

Out of interest who were you managing? and who are you managing now? :)

Edited by JR866Gunner

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41 minutes ago, JR866Gunner said:

Out of interest who were you managing? and who are you managing now? :)

Poole Town then, Nybro IF now. Haven't had anyone nearly as argumentative at Nybro and dressing room atmosphere has been great a lot of the time. Still interractions that bug me (as I posted on a recent thread on this subject), but I now realise that player was just an arse.

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20 hours ago, anagain said:

Poole Town then, Nybro IF now. Haven't had anyone nearly as argumentative at Nybro and dressing room atmosphere has been great a lot of the time. Still interractions that bug me (as I posted on a recent thread on this subject), but I now realise that player was just an arse.

Yep I had one of those at Farnborough Town, surprisingly Coventry City who were languishing in L1 in the relegation zone took a punt on me and its much happier for me at the moment.

 

I survived the drop and all my players are happy now! I need to push on which will be a challenge in itself. 

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Something fun about unhappy players : sometimes they LIE to their teammates.

I have some examples where a player comes to ask for a new contract, I tell him "not now, we will review your situation at the end of the season". Sometimes the player disagrees, the conversation goes bad, and he leaves my office unhappy.

Two days after I have some teammates who comes to tell me they don't understand why I turned dows his request, he deserved a new contract ... I tell them he refused to have his contract reviewed at the end of season, and boom, they all calm down telling me "well, that's not what he told us, you were right boss".

Needless to say, I got rid of the liar. But I found it fun to see that, in some instances, SI perfectly replicated the real world. Always try to see the two faces of the coin.

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On 09/07/2018 at 22:25, HUNT3R said:

There needs to be some sort of gameplay element and a point for it to be in. Like I asked - what would be the point if you could just run through the possibilities until something clicks?

This is exactly how real life works though, you talk again so maybe you can solve the problem (or not but at least it has to be there). The current mechanism is just a lazy approach of modelling the real life interactions.

One moderator was saying that this is because the player gets so angry he would not like to talk to you. Ok!! Then give me an option to send him home or U18. I can send him to U18 but then he sees that as a completely separate issue and I cannot tell him why he is there. 

Again Lazy approach.

Edited by Milad06

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On 09/07/2018 at 23:54, isignedupfornorealreason said:

But if I think his attitude stinks, I don't want his attitude stinking up the U23's where my youth prospects are. 

If you think his attitude stinks, just get rid of him. I did this with Andy Carroll simply because he kept irritating me with requests and getting angry at being told no. He played well enough when he played, but in the end I just shunted him to the reserves and sold him as soon as someone wanted to buy.

3 hours ago, Milad06 said:

This is exactly how real life works though, you talk again so maybe you can solve the problem (or not but at least it has to be there).

Is it, though? Imagine you go to work and tell your boss you think you deserve a raise. You feel your work has been excellent and you are very valuable to the company. Your boss flat out says you do not deserve one. You disagree and leave. Unhappy with the outcome, bitching to friends, the like. The boss calls you back into the office later than day. What will the conversation be? At this point you are not going to trust what the boss says. Maybe he offers you something at the end of the year. He has already told you he does not want to pay you more, so why would you change your mind. He gives you a goal to achieve and you get a raise. That is plain insulting if you think your work already deserves a raise. You talk it out and discuss why no raise. You are still going to be unhappy with the situation. Your relationship with the boss is still unlikely to be perfect. You are not going to want to spend time chatting to him about things. This is what FM is replicating. Otherwise you will be having the same talk over and over again, which is nonsense in real life and in FM.

3 hours ago, Milad06 said:

Then give me an option to send him home or U18. I can send him to U18 but then he sees that as a completely separate issue and I cannot tell him why he is there.

If you have that much of an issue with a player, sell him. That is the simple answer. That is the real world answer football managers would use too (or they will get fired because they lose the dressing room and/or were at Chelsea). It is what would happen in a company too, except you would just be given your notice. Sending someone home is a nonsensical way of dealing with this. Or rather, of not dealing with it. Players more often than not get over it with time.

In fact I think people get hung up on players being unhappy in general. It is rarely the end of the world. The only people you really do not want to upset too much are the team leaders. They are the players who will cause you problems, because they tend to have backing. Then you may want to consider your options and try to give ground or be more sensitive. A squad player who has no influence can be unhappy all he wants, he is not going to give me issues. I cannot think of a single time where one of my players who has been unhappy has not gotten over it at some point (with the except of Carroll at the start of this post, but that is because I totally gave up and got rid). You just have to manage your squad better. Getting rid of troublemakers is a good start.

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A lot of people don't realise just how many variables go into the interaction side of the game, and how much of an important part of the game it can be. 

I rarely get problems with this side of the game, and if I do, I can usually sort it relatively quickly. The introduction of the dynamics screens has been massive in helping to control the squad. It really helps you to learn more about the players and their personalities.  For example, in my opinion, the very worst thing you can have is a team leader with a rotten personality. That can lead to all sorts of issues in the wtong hands. 

That said, I do believe there should be more relevant interaction options sometimes (I believe this is something FM20 is doing), as there can be occasions where the right thing to say to a player simply isn't there. Good management will still avoid any 'mutinies' in these cases, however it shouldn't need to get that far. 

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Been calling for an overhaul of the communication side of the game for years. The idea that you can't say anything to a player that's got the hump with you is ridiculous. You should be able to pick up the phone and talk to any manager at any time for any reason too. If anything, communication in the game has gone backwards. It should be much more open than it currently is. 

Edited by QWERTYOP

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47 minutes ago, QWERTYOP said:

Been calling for an overhaul of the communication side of the game for years. The idea that you can't say anything to a player that's got the hump with you is ridiculous. You should be able to pick up the phone and talk to any manager at any time for any reason too. If anything, communication in the game has gone backwards. It should be much more open than it currently is. 

IMO, the problem is that the game is trying to lay down rules for if and when you can talk to a player about anything and this should not happen.  The decision to talk to a player should be the manager's, regardless of the circumstances.

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On 09/10/2019 at 17:28, sporadicsmiles said:

The boss calls you back into the office later than day.

Despite of all the story, you are  saying the same thing I am saying. This is exactly what I want. I want to be able to call him to my office again and continue on the same topic. Now he is angry so it could be hard to convince him, but maybe I want to give up and give him what he wants (even if our relationship is not perfect) or maybe punish him for bitching in dressing room. We do not have that now, while it is an easy implementation scripting wise.

 

On 09/10/2019 at 17:28, sporadicsmiles said:

If you have that much of an issue with a player, sell him. That is the simple answer.

I know this, I did not write this comment as I do not know how to deal with players in game. All I am saying is that  dealing with dressing room can be an exciting part of the game, but now it is seriously limited.

 

On 09/10/2019 at 17:28, sporadicsmiles said:

Then you may want to consider your options

I believe such options are limited and it is disappointing as FM considers various details that makes this game enjoyable for me.

 

On 09/10/2019 at 17:28, sporadicsmiles said:

Your relationship with the boss is still unlikely to be perfect. You are not going to want to spend time chatting to him about things.

Yeah, but he is a professional, I like to ask him to do better in training, or be able to fine him for a poor performance. Simple as that.
 

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I don't really see the point in having a continuous conversation. From a gaming point of view, it would just render the whole thing pointless if you were able to just keep picking different options until the best result came up. That's almost like reloading a match you've lost until you eventually win it.  

Apart from anything else - what are the two main complaints players have? A new contract and more game time. If a player is unhappy after you've had a game time conversation and you want to change your mind, you don't need to speak to him again, you just give him more game time. Similarly, if you're regretting not giving a player a new conttract and he kicks up a fuss about it, guess what? Offer him a new contract. 

Dealing with unhappy players has become a significant part of the game, the entire thing would be diluted if you could just keep going back until you get the result you want. 

 

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1 hour ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

if you're regretting not giving a player a new conttract and he kicks up a fuss about it, guess what? Offer him a new contract. 

 

This isn't possible though, is it?  If the player is unhappy, he won't talk to you about a contract.  Right now you can't even call him back in for a meeting to tell him you've had second thoughts and you'll start negotiating. 

 

Is your argument then that this aspect of FM should be 'gamey' rather than 'realistic'?  I mean, I can see that point of view but it's sort of at odds with what SI are trying to present elsewhere.

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5 minutes ago, Flashman said:

 

This isn't possible though, is it?  If the player is unhappy, he won't talk to you about a contract. 

If the reason for his unhappiness is not getting a new contract, the player will usually accept the offer of a new one. All other issues normally result in the refusal to negotiate. 

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6 minutes ago, Flashman said:

 

Is your argument then that this aspect of FM should be 'gamey' rather than 'realistic'? 

I would argue that being able to revisit a conversation tree time and time again until you get the desired result is more 'gamey'. 

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I would say that two people continuing to talk until an amicable solution is reached is more 'realistic', but hey ho.  Maybe we've experienced life differently..!

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11 minutes ago, Flashman said:

I would say that two people continuing to talk until an amicable solution is reached is more 'realistic', 

That's already in the game. If you make a mess of it, you suffer the consequences. However, it usually can be fairly easily rectified by your subsequent actions, there's no need to keep repeating the same things again and again. 

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This whole thread is about the fact that you can't speak to an unhappy player, so it's not already in the game.  'Making a mess of it and suffering the consequences' is not how people behave in the real world, and in particular this is not how anybody would treat their manager!

 

But yes, there's no point repaeating the same thing again and again, as you say.  I'm glad you're happy with how this works in game, but I think even SI are aware that it's far from perfect.

 

You have a good day   :thup:

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