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This is a silly argument. The reason why Sterling's given the ball away less is because he's had far fewer touches than most of his teammates. Sure, he's higher up the pitch in more congested areas than most, but if we're seriously doing the Lingard comparison it's 37 passes per 90s mins at 93% versus 25 at 85% in not dissimilar roles, with Lingard also providing a cracking goal and great assist and not missing chances quite as straightforward as Sterling's or getting caught in possession as much.

Sure, Sterling's off the ball movement and linkup play is still better suited to how Gareth wants to play, and he stretched the Sweden defence more than anyone else in the last game (in which he was much better than a lethargic Kane), but he's also been well short of his best overall and did very little in the second half against Colombia

 

1 minute ago, skybluedave said:

Rashford's missed the easiest chsnce we've created this tournament

 

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21 hours ago, Bliss Seeker said:

Alli on the other hand, doesn't look right and he's the one player who Southgate's system works against. Constantly with his back to goal and asked to do creative stuff in the middle and that's just not his game.

What is Alli's game? Genuinely asking. He's such a confusing player.

Sterling I agree has to start. Just wish he could be better in decisive moments.

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16 minutes ago, m_fenton said:

Rashford's chance was easier than that, to be fair.

Rashford failed to score a one on one because the finish was slightly telegraphed and the fingertips of the keeper made a world class save. Sterling had to redirect a cross that was more like a pass into an empty net but massively miscued it (and also failed with two one on ones of his own in a more unconvincing manner however lovely his first touch was)

 

25 minutes ago, Baptista_8 said:

What is Alli's game? Genuinely asking. He's such a confusing player.

Sterling I agree has to start. Just wish he could be better in decisive moments.

Alli's game for Spurs is closer to the off the ball movement and linkup play Sterling's being asked to produce for England, but he hasn't shown anything in this tournament to suggest he could do a better job than Sterling if played further forward, and his passing game isn't any worse than the other candidates to play centre mid.

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I think Alli is kinda in their by default. He got dropped from the first 11 before the tournament but Ox got injured and he was the next best choice really

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1 hour ago, enigmatic said:

Rashford failed to score a one on one because the finish was slightly telegraphed and the fingertips of the keeper made a world class save. Sterling had to redirect a cross that was more like a pass into an empty net but massively miscued it

Rashford telegraphing his shot doesn't make the miss better, that makes it worse ffs :D The cross to Sterling was hit at a decent pace and a split second before Sterling has to hit it it bounces as the defender tries to clear it. Not sure if the defender actually touches it or just misses it too. Either way, it was nothing like as simple as "redirecting a pass into an empty net".

Don't get me wrong, Sterling could really do with sorting his finishing, but he's shown a million times more at club level and in his general play for England than Rashford. I really don't get the clamour for him to start.

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1 hour ago, skybluedave said:

I think Alli is kinda in their by default. He got dropped from the first 11 before the tournament but Ox got injured and he was the next best choice really

On one hand yea Ox would fill that role exactly to what Southgate would want in that role. Not bad having a player like Alli is a back though.

On the other, Alli's ability to defend from the front due to being a Poch player is crucial and has decent link-up play as well, but just hasn't been sharp yet. People will highlight that bad pass attempt to Kane in the first half vs Sweden, but won't take the fact that the opportunity happened because he pressed Krafth (?) and got the ball off of him in the first place. Alli has been the most underwhelming of the England starters and still has a goal. If anything, it shows how well all the other 10 players have performed this World Cup.

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59 minutes ago, adhikapp said:

On one hand yea Ox would fill that role exactly to what Southgate would want in that role. Not bad having a player like Alli is a back though.

On the other, Alli's ability to defend from the front due to being a Poch player is crucial and has decent link-up play as well, but just hasn't been sharp yet. People will highlight that bad pass attempt to Kane in the first half vs Sweden, but won't take the fact that the opportunity happened because he pressed Krafth (?) and got the ball off of him in the first place. Alli has been the most underwhelming of the England starters and still has a goal. If anything, it shows how well all the other 10 players have performed this World Cup.

Is Alli really the type of player who defends from the front?

Not being funny but whenever I think of Alli's contributions to the defensive side of the game, I immediately think of several potentially career-ending tackles. He is a nasty piece of work when it comes to tackling and if Southgate's options were to include him putting in tackles, he's made the right choice with whatever he's doing with him now, because now he doesn't look likely to get sent off every other game (cue: red card in the semi tomorrow :D)

e: if by defending from the front you meant pressing the defence then fair enough, that I can agree with. But if you meant (as I have assumed, perhaps wrongly...) defending from the front in the general sense of getting stuck in; pressing and tackling, then I'm sorry but Alli is a horrific choice due to his temperament. 

Edited by JDownie

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11 minutes ago, JDownie said:

Is Alli really the type of player who defends from the front?

Not being funny but whenever I think of Alli's contributions to the defensive side of the game, I immediately think of several potentially career-ending tackles. He is a nasty piece of work when it comes to tackling and if Southgate's options were to include him putting in tackles, he's made the right choice with whatever he's doing with him now, because now he doesn't look likely to get sent off every other game (cue: red card in the semi tomorrow :D)

e: if by defending from the front you meant pressing the defence then fair enough, that I can agree with. But if you meant (as I have assumed, perhaps wrongly...) defending from the front in the general sense of getting stuck in; pressing and tackling, then I'm sorry but Alli is a horrific choice due to his temperament. 

Yea, what I meant by "pressing the defence" is defending from the front. Isn't it what it means? Also not being funny but English isn't exactly my first language :D

Basically with Sterling, Alli, and Henderson, you have players that understands the press under coaches like Pep, Poch, and Klopp, respectively. Add Lingard to that, who will work tirelessly, and knows a thing or two on my definition of "defending from the front" from Mourinho, you have players that are essentially irreplaceable in Southgate's system. When I saw RLC and Delph play against Belgium in the dead rubber game in the exact same system, both players most of time were almost always by Dier's side instead of roaming forward and making the cute triangles Alli, Lingard, & Sterling usually does. Maybe it was microtactic management by Southgate, idk, as every ball England got that day were always punted long in the hope of either Rashford or Vardy to catch it. It's insane how different the chance creation once Sterling and Lingard were rested.

Alli was really good in the first half vs Tunisia before he got injured and forced his way to play. and thankfully for England that Alli wasn't really needed against Panama. He wasn't that good against Colombia or the first half vs Sweden, but picked it up a bit the second half of the quarters, even earned a goal. These inconsistent outputs from Dele makes him look both overrated and underrated at the same if it makes any sense. I just wonder what will happen if Sterling and Dele swapped places.

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I think Sterling would benefit massively from swapping roles with Dele. Not sure how Dele would do if asked to lead the line like Sterling does, but if Alli plays just off Kane like he does for Spurs I would expect to see some good results. Especially with Sterling given more freedom to roam as a midfielder finding space (where he excels) instead of as a spearhead creating space (which he does very well too, but he doesn't need to be limited to one or the other). 

Edited by JDownie

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Alli is a bit more clinical isn't he? That's my only reasoning to why I think their roles should be swapped as they would link-up in similar places anyway. Just starting positions and slightly differing responsibilities could be massive imo.

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Worth pointing out that Ali's clearly been nursing a thigh injury for the tournament, so his performances are slightly easier to defend, but his selection is more the question-mark.

Rashford wouldn't be able to do what Sterling is currently doing for the side but is more of a natural finisher (that one chance aside).  His key skill is on the ball dribbling, which is better suited to playing against a defence that Sterling has just been pulling all over the place and tiring out.

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10 hours ago, m_fenton said:

Rashford telegraphing his shot doesn't make the miss better, that makes it worse ffs :D The cross to Sterling was hit at a decent pace and a split second before Sterling has to hit it it bounces as the defender tries to clear it. Not sure if the defender actually touches it or just misses it too. Either way, it was nothing like as simple as "redirecting a pass into an empty net".

Don't get me wrong, Sterling could really do with sorting his finishing, but he's shown a million times more at club level and in his general play for England than Rashford. I really don't get the clamour for him to start.

I know telegraphing makes it worse, point is it's a reasonably confident and well placed finish Courtois only has any chance of brilliantly saving because he can anticipate where it's going; same finish ends up in the bottom corner more often than not.   cf. Sterling losing out on two one on ones because he's indecisive and puts the ball where it's easy for the keeper. And offside or not, I can't believe people are actually defending that Tunisia finish as a difficult chance; I'd be upset to make that much of a hash of it! Nothing about the pace or bounce is deceptive for a pub team player, never mind an international forward.

I've consistently argued that Sterling is a better fit for Southgate's tactics but defending his nerves in front of goal by attacking his less-profligate teammate is just bonkers.

9 hours ago, JDownie said:

I think Sterling would benefit massively from swapping roles with Dele. Not sure how Dele would do if asked to lead the line like Sterling does, but if Alli plays just off Kane like he does for Spurs I would expect to see some good results. Especially with Sterling given more freedom to roam as a midfielder finding space (where he excels) instead of as a spearhead creating space (which he does very well too, but he doesn't need to be limited to one or the other). 

Has Sterling actually been deployed as an orthodox CM before? I'd rather have him finding space further forward in areas where he's used to running in behind and using his ability to isolate and beat opponents  than finding space to take the ball off the back four where he's not used to it and it's his range and tempo of passing thats being tested. Alli is half decent in the CM role he started his career in and though he'd still prefer to be further forward linking up with Kane, on current fitness levels Sterling also offers more off the ball movement than him there.

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4 minutes ago, enigmatic said:

I know telegraphing makes it worse, point is it's a reasonably confident and well placed finish Courtois only has any chance of brilliantly saving because he can anticipate where it's going; same finish ends up in the bottom corner more often than not.   cf. Sterling losing out on two one on ones because he's indecisive and puts the ball where it's easy for the keeper. And offside or not, I can't believe people are actually defending that Tunisia finish as a difficult chance; I'd be upset to make that much of a hash of it! Nothing about the pace or bounce is deceptive for a pub team player, never mind an international forward.

I've consistently argued that Sterling is a better fit for Southgate's tactics but defending his nerves in front of goal by attacking his less-profligate teammate is just bonkers.

Not "defending his nerves in front of goal", just disagreeing with your suggestion that that miss was the easiest chance we've created.

If Sterling missed the Rashford chance, I guarantee you'd be calling it the easier one.

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2 minutes ago, m_fenton said:

Not "defending his nerves in front of goal", just disagreeing with your suggestion that that miss was the easiest chance we've created.

If Sterling missed the Rashford chance, I guarantee you'd be calling it the easier one.

No, it's football 101 that open goals are converted more often than one on one chances, and football 101 that badly miscuing a shot is a lot worse than having one destined for the bottom corner brilliantly saved. And even if you're convinced that having one on ones saved is truly the worst thing in the world, you'd need sky blue glasses on to be convinced Sterling had been more convincing with his efforts in that area than Rashford this tournament...

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3 minutes ago, enigmatic said:

No, it's football 101 that open goals are converted more often than one on one chances, and football 101 that badly miscuing a shot is a lot worse than having one destined for the bottom corner brilliantly saved. And even if you're convinced that having one on ones saved is truly the worst thing in the world, you'd need sky blue glasses on to be convinced Sterling had been more convincing with his efforts in that area than Rashford this tournament...

I haven't said "worst thing in the world", don't have "sky blue glasses" ("amber specs" maybe, but they tend not to influence the World Cup much) or that "Sterling has been more convincing with his efforts in that area than Rashford in this tournament". Simply that, in my opinion, the Sterling chance was harder than Rashford's.

Calm down and enjoy yourself - someone disagreeing with you isn't the end of the world and you don't have to accuse them of imagined bias or invent things they didn't say.

For what it's worth, this isn't an open goal:

image.thumb.png.9230ecdc7dcac346ed78b94ebc9bef12.png

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1 hour ago, m_fenton said:

If Sterling missed the Rashford chance, I guarantee you'd be calling it the easier one.

1 hour ago, m_fenton said:

Calm down and enjoy yourself - someone disagreeing with you isn't the end of the world and you don't have to accuse them of imagined bias or invent things they didn't say.

Hmmm....

Not that there's much point in carrying on this silly argument which even the person who originally singled out Rashford's miss doesn't seem to care about, but that freeze frame looks suspiciously like an open goal to me; keeper not in the picture, no pressure on the ball and no way the defender gets back in time to block a properly hit shot, not even if he's prepared to save it Suarez style :D 

 

Now, back to waiting for football coming home. Probably with goals from both Sterling and Rashford off the bench just to make the whole argument even more pointless.

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12 minutes ago, enigmatic said:

Hmmm....

Not that there's much point in carrying on this silly argument which even the person who originally singled out Rashford's miss doesn't seem to care about, but that freeze frame looks suspiciously like an open goal to me; keeper not in the picture, no pressure on the ball and no way the defender gets back in time to block a properly hit shot, not even if he's prepared to save it Suarez style :D 

 

 Now, back to waiting for football coming home. Probably with goals from both Sterling and Rashford off the bench just to make the whole argument even more pointless.

He's back before he's even hit it, so that's an odd thing to say, but agreed that this would be silly to continue :D

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