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Overated players


Gregster

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The Neymar hate is over the top for me, I get that he's a bit of a knob but he was great vs. Mexico and a threat in the majority of games. It all could have been so different had Courtois not made that save. I expected more given his superstar standards (I had him nailed on for golden ball) and was slightly disappointed but he certainly wasn't as bad as it's being made out.

Very few of the big names have impressed me, not sure why Neymar is prime target for any reason other than pure dislike for the guy when Messi, Cristiano etc. were all equally disappointing. 

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25 minutes ago, ArsenalFan7 said:

The Neymar hate is over the top for me, I get that he's a bit of a knob but he was great vs. Mexico and a threat in the majority of games. It all could have been so different had Courtois not made that save. I expected more given his superstar standards (I had him nailed on for golden ball) and was slightly disappointed but he certainly wasn't as bad as it's being made out.

Very few of the big names have impressed me, not sure why Neymar is prime target for any reason other than pure dislike for the guy when Messi, Cristiano etc. were all equally disappointing. 

Agreed.

Neymar was arguably a lot better than Messi this World Cup, he still scored two goals and made two assists, only Coutinho did better in the Brazilian squad.

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Neymar didn't play a minute of football from end of Feb until.....May? I think he played again in one of Brazil's warmup games. Pretty clear he won't be match sharp, even if he's medically fit and fine. Given that I think he did a pretty decent job. Far worse players than Neymar at this competition who went into it with no issues whatsoever

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For me Neymar flopped given the circumstances. This should have been his tournament and with the way things panned out. No Spain, Argentina, Portugal & Germany being in the quaters. He missed his chance. A big chance to win it with his Brazil. That would have taken him to the level he’s trying to reach. (Balon dor)

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3 hours ago, ArsenalFan7 said:

The Neymar hate is over the top for me, I get that he's a bit of a knob but he was great vs. Mexico and a threat in the majority of games. It all could have been so different had Courtois not made that save. I expected more given his superstar standards (I had him nailed on for golden ball) and was slightly disappointed but he certainly wasn't as bad as it's being made out.

Very few of the big names have impressed me, not sure why Neymar is prime target for any reason other than pure dislike for the guy when Messi, Cristiano etc. were all equally disappointing. 

I think a lot of it's down to the fact he plays for Brazil, so the expectation is greater.  Personally I don't think that this Brazil team was particularly good.  I think they're full of good, but not world class players.  Neymar is probably the pick of the bunch, maybe with the exception of Willian.  But his reputation is suffering a bit because people still remember the Brazil forwards of (relatively) recent years, Ronaldo, Romario, Ronaldinho etc.  I don't think he's quite at their level yet.  So for me is overrated as he's being, talked about along with Ronaldo, Messi etc.  But that's not to say he can't get to their level one day.  

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Why aren't they good?

Best LB in the world, two great CBs, defenisvely solid RB.

Then you have Coutinho who played better than Neymar and Willian/Costa for other wing.

Casemiro was a big miss for them, but midfield is good enough to provide him with everything he needs.

He didn't deliver, maybe due to injury, but he didn't.

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2 hours ago, ryan045 said:

For me Neymar flopped given the circumstances. This should have been his tournament and with the way things panned out. No Spain, Argentina, Portugal & Germany being in the quaters. He missed his chance. A big chance to win it with his Brazil. That would have taken him to the level he’s trying to reach. (Balon dor)

Oh you're having a laugh. First you said he did "nothing". When the facts are being shown to you that Neymar actually did do well, you're saying he "flopped due to expectations"? The two active Ballon d'Or winners don't have a World Cup to their name and are still fine. Do you really expect him to score a hat-trick every match up to the finals and evade every tackle? Criticize him for his diving shenanigans is fair game, but not this. Brazil got beat by Belgium ffs, not Panama.

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30 minutes ago, GunmaN1905 said:

Why aren't they good?

Best LB in the world, two great CBs, defenisvely solid RB.

Then you have Coutinho who played better than Neymar and Willian/Costa for other wing.

Casemiro was a big miss for them, but midfield is good enough to provide him with everything he needs.

He didn't deliver, maybe due to injury, but he didn't.

It's two goals and two assists that bad in 5 games, considering he was probably not 100%?

Neymar could have done better surely, but arguably only Coutinho did better than him in this team.

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38 minutes ago, mrw072 said:

I think a lot of it's down to the fact he plays for Brazil, so the expectation is greater.  Personally I don't think that this Brazil team was particularly good.  I think they're full of good, but not world class players.  Neymar is probably the pick of the bunch, maybe with the exception of Willian.  But his reputation is suffering a bit because people still remember the Brazil forwards of (relatively) recent years, Ronaldo, Romario, Ronaldinho etc.  I don't think he's quite at their level yet.  So for me is overrated as he's being, talked about along with Ronaldo, Messi etc.  But that's not to say he can't get to their level one day.  

Ronaldinho was way worse for the national team than Neymar though. And he wasted half of his career with his laziness. 

And Neymar already have more goals for Brazil than Romário and is on his way to surpass Ronaldo soon too.

I agree though that we lack the world class players of old times (although it's pointless to expect us to be as good as in the past), but this squad was still more than good enough to win the title. 

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1 hour ago, PMLF said:

Ronaldinho was way worse for the national team than Neymar though. And he wasted half of his career with his laziness. 

And Neymar already have more goals for Brazil than Romário and is on his way to surpass Ronaldo soon too.

I agree though that we lack the world class players of old times (although it's pointless to expect us to be as good as in the past), but this squad was still more than good enough to win the title. 

I do understand what you mean about Ronaldinho and Romario, but whenever I saw them play they always seemed to have a 'swagger' about them, a bit of arrogance really, because they believed in their abilities.  I didn't see that from this Brazil team if i'm honest.  I think Neymar has potential, but I also wouldn't be surprised if he just becomes a 'nearly man'.  I'm sure his injury before the WC didn't help, and he does have undoubted skill.  But all i'll remember him for in this WC is for how he reacted to being tackled etc.  

I'd like to see Brazil do well in the future, and i'm sure they will.  But I do disagree that they had a team capable of winning the WC.  For me, there were 4 or 5 teams ahead of them.  But i'm sure they'll be ok.

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Just now, mrw072 said:

But all i'll remember him for in this WC is for how he reacted to being tackled etc. 

He did exaggerate a lot with the simulation, but he did a lot more than just that.

 

1 minute ago, mrw072 said:

I'd like to see Brazil do well in the future, and i'm sure they will.  But I do disagree that they had a team capable of winning the WC.  For me, there were 4 or 5 teams ahead of them.  But i'm sure they'll be ok.

I think there were 5 or 6 teams at the same level: Spain, Germany, France, Brazil and now we can say England and Belgium too. In hindsight some of them underperformed, but this was and is probably one of the most open World Cups in recent times.

Brazil lost to Belgium but Brazil played fairly well and dominated the second half, a Brazilian win wouldn't have been absurd.

I think this squad was our best this century, after the 2002 one, with the best possible coach we could have. It didn't work well in the end, but Brazil did well during the preparation and the World Cup itself. 

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7 hours ago, adhikapp said:

Oh you're having a laugh. First you said he did "nothing". When the facts are being shown to you that Neymar actually did do well, you're saying he "flopped due to expectations"? The two active Ballon d'Or winners don't have a World Cup to their name and are still fine. Do you really expect him to score a hat-trick every match up to the finals and evade every tackle? Criticize him for his diving shenanigans is fair game, but not this. Brazil got beat by Belgium ffs, not Panama.

Neymar didn’t do well. He needed a strong WC to push on. I guess he can slot back into Paris and win an easy League by 100 points again. That won’t get him any closer to a Balon dor.

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5 hours ago, PMLF said:

He did exaggerate a lot with the simulation, but he did a lot more than just that.

 

I think there were 5 or 6 teams at the same level: Spain, Germany, France, Brazil and now we can say England and Belgium too. In hindsight some of them underperformed, but this was and is probably one of the most open World Cups in recent times.

Brazil lost to Belgium but Brazil played fairly well and dominated the second half, a Brazilian win wouldn't have been absurd.

I think this squad was our best this century, after the 2002 one, with the best possible coach we could have. It didn't work well in the end, but Brazil did well during the preparation and the World Cup itself. 

I wouldn’t say Brazil performerd well at all. The huge glaring mistake was not playing Firmino. Best CF in Europe. Jesus just doesn’t have enough to lead a Brazilian line. If Brazilians don’t care about Firmino then that’s there fault. He should be starting every game.

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Last post - Brazil seem to have a weird fan base. They only care mostly about players who play in there homeland which is a weak league. Such a strange way of thinking. My front 3 would have been Coutinho - Firmino - Costa. Neymar was never fit enough or in form to get in that lineup. Tite was never strong enough to make that call.

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Feel really sorry for Sterling. He's been chastised by people who think you have to score a goal to have a good/great game. 

(Not this forum by the way just generally)

I've never liked Ali to be honest always thought he is/was too slow and one dimensional but it's obvious he has been carrying an injury most of the tournament. Did well Vs Sweden and deserved his goal. 

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1 hour ago, AJJ said:

(Not this forum by the way just generally)

Definitely this forum, although people seem to have started to get onboard with the idea that he does a lot for the team after the Sweden game 

Just the Utd and Liverpool fans now 

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6 hours ago, AJJ said:

Feel really sorry for Sterling. He's been chastised by people who think you have to score a goal to have a good/great game. 

(Not this forum by the way just generally)

I've never liked Ali to be honest always thought he is/was too slow and one dimensional but it's obvious he has been carrying an injury most of the tournament. Did well Vs Sweden and deserved his goal. 

Completely agree with this.  The weakest performer this WC has been Ali, and he acknowledged that in his interview.  I'd be tempted to swap him for Delph's industry in midfield for the Croatia game.  For me this is a game where we'll really need Sterling and Kane doing what they did against Sweden and dropping deep to hold the ball up for others.

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ryan045 :D.

Man, it really seems to bother Liverpool fans a lot that Firmino wasn't a starter for Brazil this WC. In addition: no mate, the Ligue 1 and the Brazilian Série A are not weak or easy leagues. 

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2 hours ago, Cedrik said:

ryan045 :D.

Man, it really seems to bother Liverpool fans a lot that Firmino wasn't a starter for Brazil this WC. In addition: no mate, the Ligue 1 and the Brazilian Série A are not weak or easy leagues. 

Sometimes I think some Liverpool fans believe Firmino is a new Pelé...

They better get used to the fact that Gabriel Jesus will most likely remain as a Brazil starter after the World Cup too and for many years to come.

--

It's fitting though that Firmino gets overrated so much on a thread about overrated players... :D 

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1 hour ago, PMLF said:

Sometimes I think some Liverpool fans believe Firmino is a new Pelé...

They better get used to the fact that Gabriel Jesus will most likely remain as a Brazil starter after the World Cup too and for many years to come.

--

It's fitting though that Firmino gets overrated so much on a thread about overrated players... :D 

I'm not a Liverpool guy and I think Gabriel J was poor. Seems to me Tite felt he was a better fit for the way he wanted to play, which basically was give Neymar the ball. :) 

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Oh that can be, I mean I'm not saying Gabiel Jesus was amazing or something like that. But I don't think Firmino is quality-wise any better tbh, and it's also not at all a weird choice to pick Gabriel Jesus over him. His performances at Man City where pretty impressive imo. That he did not really deliver at the WC is a pity, but that goes almost for the whole Brazilian team I feel. 

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2 minutes ago, Cedrik said:

Oh that can be, I mean I'm not saying Gabiel Jesus was amazing or something like that. But I don't think Firmino is quality-wise any better tbh, and it's also not at all a weird choice to pick Gabriel Jesus over him. His performances at Man City where pretty impressive imo. That he did not really deliver at the WC is a pity, but that goes almost for the whole Brazilian team I feel. 

Gabriel Jesus also proved himself during the Qualifiers and has been the starter since he was at Palmeiras. Firmino is not that amazing to warrant a place in the starting XI only because of what he does for Liverpool. And when he got a chance to play 45 minutes (vs Belgium), he was nothing special, exactly like happened most of the times he played for Brazil before.

I think we need other options besides Gabriel Jesus though, maybe within the next four years someone will show up.

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3 minutes ago, Cedrik said:

Oh that can be, I mean I'm not saying Gabiel Jesus was amazing or something like that. But I don't think Firmino is quality-wise any better tbh, and it's also not at all a weird choice to pick Gabriel Jesus over him. His performances at Man City where pretty impressive imo. That he did not really deliver at the WC is a pity, but that goes almost for the whole Brazilian team I feel. 

Pre-injury they were. He hasn't looked good for a long while now though, whereas Firmino had one of the best performances of any no9 in Europe this season.

Starting with Gabriel Jesus was fine. Keeping the faith after such poor performances cost Tite.

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Just now, EnterUsernameHere said:

Pre-injury they were. He hasn't looked good for a long while now though, whereas Firmino had one of the best performances of any no9 in Europe this season.

Starting with Gabriel Jesus was fine. Keeping the faith after such poor performances cost Tite.

I think the squad was poorly set up regarding the forwards, as it was either Gabriel Jesus not performing great when attacking (did fine defending though) or Firmino who is nowhere near as good for Brazil as he is for Liverpool.

Instead of Taison, Tite should have called up some other proper forward.

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8 hours ago, Barry Cartman said:

Definitely this forum, although people seem to have started to get onboard with the idea that he does a lot for the team after the Sweden game 

Just the Utd and Liverpool fans now 

Don't be daft Barry, there's plenty of United fans, and I think some Liverpool ( dont really keep track of the Liverpool fans tbh) who have been sticking up for him, as if this is really some kind of club thing FFS

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3 hours ago, ham_aka_stam said:

Completely agree with this.  The weakest performer this WC has been Ali, and he acknowledged that in his interview.  I'd be tempted to swap him for Delph's industry in midfield for the Croatia game.  For me this is a game where we'll really need Sterling and Kane doing what they did against Sweden and dropping deep to hold the ball up for others.

Really feel we need to play with a midfield platform in this game, Delph in with Lingard playing the link, as his diligence in defence has been quite good tbh

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1 minute ago, themadsheep2001 said:

Don't be daft Barry, there's plenty of United fans, and I think some Liverpool ( dont really keep track of the Liverpool fans tbh) who have been sticking up for him, as if this is really some kind of club thing FFS

I haven't been (haven't criticised either) but yeah there are plenty of us who rate/defend him. He's still underrated by a lot, especially his passing and his off the ball movement.

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2 minutes ago, EnterUsernameHere said:

I haven't been (haven't criticised either) but yeah there are plenty of us who rate/defend him. He's still underrated by a lot, especially his passing and his off the ball movement.

Agree, just haven't got time for the nonsense that it's split down club lines

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I think that Sterling has been good in his movement and can see what he provides to the team, and still think he could have done better given the opportunities he's had, this is not just the shooting chances.

Sterling is the new Carrick where people go over the top in their praise to show how knowledgeable they are about football.

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1 hour ago, The_jagster said:

I think that Sterling has been good in his movement and can see what he provides to the team, and still think he could have done better given the opportunities he's had, this is not just the shooting chances.

Sterling is the new Carrick where people go over the top in their praise to show how knowledgeable they are about football.

Carrick isn't the best example, because it turned out the people who didn't rate him were pretty much completely wrong. 

Sterling is probably playing 7/10 atm. He can definitely do better, but he's also being let down by some of the players around him (Kane and Alli), while playing a role that doesn't get the best from him. 

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Such a non story. I'm hoping if he didn't miss the 2 one on one's (the other 2 were offside numbnuts) this wouldn't even be a conversation. But people are idiots, so who knows. 

I saw something on YouTube that tries to explain the importance of Sterling in this system, and why calling for Rashford to play in his place is such a stupid idea. Let me see if I can find it. 

Against Sweden, only Mguire, Henderson and Trippier (although he wasn't successful in any of his 10 crosses aparently! ) played as well or better. 

Him starting shouldn't even be a question, he's so vital to the team.  If anything he's gone up in my estimation during the tournament because how brave do you have to be to continue putting yourself in positions where you know you'll get slated if you don't do the right thing? 

He could easily go hide after a mistake, like a lot of players would, but he doesn't. Props to him. 

7/10 is about right, and he's got better as the tournament's gone on so hopefully a good sign for Wednesday. 

Alli on the other hand, doesn't look right and he's the one player who Southgate's system works against. Constantly with his back to goal and asked to do creative stuff in the middle and that's just not his game. Not sure if the other options would be any better though. 

Here it is: 

 

 

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That video shows what Sterling's role is and does a good job of that in the abstract but doesn't show whether he's actually performing it well. One way of avoiding a reputation for suspect finishing would be to put away chances when he gets them, though against Sweden he did play well, finishing aside.

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If Sterling scored in the last match, he would be MotM and we wouldn't be debating this at all. The roles of Lingard, Alli and Sterling were definitely missed when England B played Belgium B. While personnel didn't differ much from the back 5, the midfield and attack were really stagnant compared to the Tunisia & Panama matches.

I'm not sure if this is the right topic at all to discuss this but the Dier I'm used to seeing at Spurs is what Henderson does for England, yet Dier didn't do that well that match. The only reason I can think of as to why is because Delph and RLC don't fluently interchange their positions like Lingard and Alli does. Both Rashford and Vardy were trying to do the Kane role and none of the Sterling link-up play, which stagnated attacks a lot. With the reputation Lingard has, I think he's underrated. And considering all the flak Alli is getting, he's somewhere between overrated (because he hasn't been consistent compared to the other England starters) or underrated (RLC & Delph don't offer the same things).

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1 hour ago, aditya said:

Sterling hate is just frustration. If he had made the right decisions they would love him as much as we love Lindgard. 

Lingard has wasted countless chances and gave the ball away as much as Sterling during this WC, yet people don't jump on him like they do Sterling because he is playing well, whereas they just don't want to see that sterling is also doing the same 

It was good to see all these pundits call people idiots after the Sweden game

https://streamable.com/fiotb

Then you've got people like Vinny Jones :D

https://talksport.com/football/397018/raheem-sterling-exeter-vinnie-jones-england-world-cup/

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1 hour ago, Barry Cartman said:

Lingard has wasted countless chances and gave the ball away as much as Sterling during this WC, yet people don't jump on him like they do Sterling because he is playing well, whereas they just don't want to see that sterling is also doing the same 

It was good to see all these pundits call people idiots after the Sweden game

https://streamable.com/fiotb

Then you've got people like Vinny Jones :D

https://talksport.com/football/397018/raheem-sterling-exeter-vinnie-jones-england-world-cup/

He's just an easy scapegoat

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2 hours ago, Barry Cartman said:

Lingard has wasted countless chances and gave the ball away as much as Sterling during this WC, yet people don't jump on him like they do Sterling because he is playing well, whereas they just don't want to see that sterling is also doing the same 

It was good to see all these pundits call people idiots after the Sweden game

https://streamable.com/fiotb

Then you've got people like Vinny Jones :D

https://talksport.com/football/397018/raheem-sterling-exeter-vinnie-jones-england-world-cup/

As much as you want to defend Sterling, it's simply not true about Lingard (or any other player giving the ball away as much as Sterling) it's entirely possible to defend him without making stuff up to cover up some of his flaws. This kind of thing is exactly what jagster is talking about 

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5 hours ago, The_jagster said:

That video shows what Sterling's role is and does a good job of that in the abstract but doesn't show whether he's actually performing it well. One way of avoiding a reputation for suspect finishing would be to put away chances when he gets them, though against Sweden he did play well, finishing aside.

It's all fine margins. He's playing well, he can play better. So can everyone else. Doesn't need the stick he gets, but also doesn't need to be deified. 

Got more pressing concerns tbh, Alli will need to play much deeper against Croatia, wonder how much that will further impact his natural game. Wonder if Delph is needed instead. 

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5 hours ago, themadsheep2001 said:

As much as you want to defend Sterling, it's simply not true about Lingard (or any other player giving the ball away as much as Sterling) it's entirely possible to defend him without making stuff up to cover up some of his flaws. This kind of thing is exactly what jagster is talking about 

Conveniently the BBC have just put up this great article 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/44771432

BBC Fan Rating

image.thumb.png.69157d68b5f6a5ffaf5909f6e9a12636.png

Chances / Goals

image.thumb.png.6bf74acc2766fdc1085e836e952b57c7.png

Quote

 

But is it fairer to compare Sterling, who scored 23 goals for Premier League winners Manchester City last season, to players who are not as prolific as the England captain?

Jesse Lingard, who has featured in a deeper midfield role, has outranked Sterling in our Player Rater with 6.72.

But the other numbers are very similar. Lingard has one goal from 12 shots and a shot accuracy the same as Sterling's with 14%.

Surely most of Lingard's efforts have come from outside the box, though?

No. Lingard has had six efforts in the penalty area to Sterling's four, showing that the Manchester United man has been finding himself in positive positions.

 

 

Quote

 

Does he give the ball away?

Sterling has often come deep to receive passes from his team-mates and then attempted to carry the ball forward, with some spectators frustrated when it ends with possession being lost.

But Sterling is some way short of being England's biggest culprit.

Sterling has turned over possession 38 times - the eighth highest for England - with Kieran Trippier leading the way on 70.

 

 

 

image.thumb.png.63c50aa001c199452fee451e26fa4bdf.png

 

Again i'm not trying to slate other players, all i'm saying is as even the BBC fan rating shows, whenever Sterling does anything bad everyone jumps on him, but they ignore or don't even remember when others do the same 

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7 hours ago, Barry Cartman said:

Lingard has wasted countless chances and gave the ball away as much as Sterling during this WC, yet people don't jump on him like they do Sterling because he is playing well, whereas they just don't want to see that sterling is also doing the same 

It was good to see all these pundits call people idiots after the Sweden game

https://streamable.com/fiotb

Then you've got people like Vinny Jones :D

https://talksport.com/football/397018/raheem-sterling-exeter-vinnie-jones-england-world-cup/

pretty sure lingards pass completion is up around 90%

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Barry, you're not telling us anything we don't already know, you're just taking the criticism far too much to heart.

Also there's a serious amount of context missing. They've included any crosses Trippier (or anyone makes) makes, as opposed to looking at being dispossessed on the ball and bad passes.

Anyone crossing the ball is going to have a seriously high turnover rate. 

We already know he's getting more flak than is fair. But he also can play better, along with several others

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2 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

Barry, you're not telling us anything we don't already know, you're just taking the criticism far too much to heart.

Also there's a serious amount of context missing. They've included any crosses Trippier (or anyone makes) makes, as opposed to looking at being dispossessed on the ball and bad passes.

Anyone crossing the ball is going to have a seriously high turnover rate. 

We already know he's getting more flak than is fair. But he also can play better, along with several others

You've just said
 

Quote

 

it's simply not true about Lingard (or any other player giving the ball away as much as Sterling) it's entirely possible to defend him without making stuff up to cover up some of his flaws


 

then when I show you that he's the 8th worst offender of this in the team, you just point out the obvious reason why Trippier does and ignored the fact that he's less of an offender than both Alli and Kane :D

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2 minutes ago, Barry Cartman said:

You've just said
 

then when I show you that he's the 8th worst offender of this in the team, you just point out the obvious reason why Trippier does and ignored the fact that he's less of an offender than both Alli and Kane :D

Sterling gets caught on the ball more than anyone else, at 2.3 times a game. Getting caught on the ball is a bigger issue than crossing the ball.

And I didn't ignore Kane and Alli, Neither get caught on the ball as much, both have differing deficiencies that I've mentioned loads since the start of the tournament

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12 minutes ago, scott MUFC said:

pass completion for sterling? he is playing up front, he should be putting it in the net, regardless of what else he brings, Rashford could bring similar no?

Rashford's missed the easiest chsnce we've created this tournament

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