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If I have to listen to any more pundits saying that England's system is working well I'll scream.  Equally Lingard, Sterling, Young and Ali are not worth their places.  I really really want to sit in front of a monitor replaying the Columbia match and ask these pundits where the good play from these players occured...it's like the Kings suit of clothes all over again.   Yes England can win but not with this team playing like this.   Get Rashfor, Rose and Cheek in an we'll have a chance.

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1 hour ago, Gregster said:

Lingard, Sterling, Young and Ali are not worth their places

 

1 hour ago, Gregster said:

Get Rashfor, Rose and Cheek in

@Gregster is quite clearly a tactical genius.

 

 

 

 

Edited by Bliss Seeker
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Erm... welcome to the SI community, OP. :D

I can't for the life of me understand why you would say that Lingard is overrated and not worth his place. In my view, he has been one of England's liveliest and best-performing players at the tournament so far.

Likewise, Sterling has not been fantastic at this tournament, but he was an important component in our attack vs Colombia and we missed his presence late on. I'm not sure I would have Rashford in ahead of him against Sweden.

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There is this big clamour for Rashford which i struggle to understand. Probably due to the simple fact that he's not Sterling.

He had a good 30 minutes v Costa Rica which included scoring a great goal. Aside from that, I've seen nothing to suggest from previous matches, or his season in general that he should be a shoo-in.

Sterling hasn't played well when it comes to end product, but he is providing a link between midfield and attack which this system sorely needs. I know it was a 2nd string XI, but Rashford against Belgium was either on the shoulder, or coming far far too deep to collect the ball like Rooney did. I'm not sure he has the positional discipline, and it's not as if he has a great goals/assists record at club or international level to suggest he'll provide end product.

Edited by martynlcfc
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Rashford

As someone who actually likes him and thinks he needs to move away now to a team where he's going to develop into a position, its insufferable how people overrate him based on coming on for the last period of a game with fresh legs and doing a little run against tired defences as if he's some world beater. When he starts for both England and Man Utd against a fresh side, you do not see the same player at all 

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I think the problem with Ali is that his injury in the first game is still hanging around and every time he takes a bump now he slows down and falls off pace. He's started well in his matches otherwise.

He's not overrated, he's just been unlucky.

Sterling has been terrible though imo.

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6 minutes ago, Ackter said:

I think the problem with Ali is that his injury in the first game is still hanging around and every time he takes a bump now he slows down and falls off pace. He's started well in his matches otherwise.

He's not overrated, he's just been unlucky.

Sterling has been terrible though imo.

Against Colombia Alli had lost possession three times in the first 5 minutes or so. How is that starting well?

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14 minutes ago, Ackter said:

I think the problem with Ali is that his injury in the first game is still hanging around and every time he takes a bump now he slows down and falls off pace. He's started well in his matches otherwise.

He's not overrated, he's just been unlucky.

Must be a long term thing as he's been below par since xmas.

I can see the Sterling hate but he offers that bit of fear in the opposition defence. That said, he couldn't finish to save his life. It would be silly to drop him at this stage.

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You don't pay any attention to an actual football match then 

Sterling is the only one transitioning the ball from defence into attack, as soon as he went off against Colombia, we had no one doing that and they just pushed further forward and dominated until their legs went into the 2nd half of extra time 

https://www.clippituser.tv/c/qvkgve

just running into defenders 

Unless you meant Alli :) 

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10 minutes ago, Ackter said:

All I've seen him do this World Cup is dribble the ball straight into defenders.

His end product has been disappointing, but his movement has been top notch.   He was shocking for the first half against Colombia true, but second half was one of our best players. 

Alli on the other hand, this system doesn't suit him at all.  If Oxlaid Chamberlain was fit, he'd probably have been selected in his place.  There's no point of Alli coming deep to touch the ball back to the defenders, he needs to be in that final third doing what he does he best.   

I think a lot of people are missing the point of the system.  Possession in defence is key and ahead of that the team is all about movement and creating space for our ball playing defenders to pass between their midfield.  Those 3 of Alli, Sterling and Lingard are interchanging and doing as much damage off the ball than they are on the ball. That's not being picked up.  Granted they're losing the ball more often than they should, but it is working somewhat.  

Alli's been the worst out of the 3 in the 2 games he's played, purely because he's been the most static but hopefully he'll come good. 

I'd go with Rose over Young tomorrow, but that's the only change I think we should make. 

 

Edited by Bliss Seeker
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I know Barry likes Sterling and I don't think he should be dropped as he's better than the alternatives, but that one clip is no more proof than Rashford's goal against Costa Rica. In the first half he had three times where he picked it up on the turn, once got a free kick, once shot into the defender and once gave it away needlessly. But he gave the ball away most other times he had it, though at least he was trying riskier passes than Alli who was worse.

Obviously people criticising Sterling for contributing little of note know nothing about football which is why Pearcey was his other cheerleader ffs and L'Equipe gave him a 4.

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During this WC Alli has looked like a stereotypical overhyped English midfielder.
Absolutely useless.

Maybe it's the role, maybe it's the injury, but he's shown nothing.

 

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16 minutes ago, The_jagster said:

I know Barry likes Sterling and I don't think he should be dropped as he's better than the alternatives, but that one clip is no more proof than Rashford's goal against Costa Rica. In the first half he had three times where he picked it up on the turn, once got a free kick, once shot into the defender and once gave it away needlessly. But he gave the ball away most other times he had it, though at least he was trying riskier passes than Alli who was worse.

Obviously people criticising Sterling for contributing little of note know nothing about football which is why Pearcey was his other cheerleader ffs and L'Equipe gave him a 4.

Yeah pretty much this. He's brilliant on the transition, but his ball usage hasn't been great

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13 minutes ago, The_jagster said:

I know Barry likes Sterling and I don't think he should be dropped as he's better than the alternatives, but that one clip is no more proof than Rashford's goal against Costa Rica. In the first half he had three times where he picked it up on the turn, once got a free kick, once shot into the defender and once gave it away needlessly. But he gave the ball away most other times he had it, though at least he was trying riskier passes than Alli who was worse.

Obviously people criticising Sterling for contributing little of note know nothing about football which is why Pearcey was his other cheerleader ffs and L'Equipe gave him a 4.

He had a quiet 1st half, then 2nd half everything we did going forward went through him, as soon as he went off, we offered nothing 

 

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Sterling has been better than people will have you think but also not as good as some will try and make you believe. He's the only player England have with that movement, he's dragging players out of position and making space for others. Notable that most of England's attacks in the first 70 odd minutes the other night came down the left with Sterling and him coming off (as well as Dier coming on) changed the game.

Also it's not like Rashford has done much to push Sterling out of the side is it? The bigger worry for me is Dele, he's not fit clearly and I'd rather RLC played instead on Saturday with Dele as Sterling's replacement later on but I doubt it'll happen. 

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I don't think anyone is trying to make out he's been amazing, but its insufferable when he's the target of abuse when he's sticking to his job in the system and making it work. The idea that putting in Rashford for him and suddenly we're going to be amazing is laughable 

Apart from the chance against Tunsia that was offside anyway and the header that Stones scored from, I don't think anyone has got the ball to Sterling in a goal scoring position. Lingard had a simple ball across to him in the box against Colombia and he fluffed it 

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Sterling is underrated at this point.

He's not been amazing and has given it away a lot but it's clear what he's adding to the team. He's good in the transitions and even if he gives the ball away he's got the opposition on the back foot and has been good.

If he starts creating chances as we know he can he'll start looking incredible, but that side has been weak so far.

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Bottom line is that Sterling and Alli have got to do more. Losing possession as much as they have been isn't really excusable. Sterling was better than Alli VS Colombia though, and tbf I would still start the former. Alli I would drop without hesitation.

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I think if Alli's injury is still there he should come out for Delph.  Same with Young out for Rose, for the same reason.

I wouldn't change anything else, Sterling is doing a good job of holding the ball up and making moves on and off the ball for others.  Lingard has been quiet (partly because I think the opposition are watching him more now) but his movement and energy is outstanding.

No-one's really shone so far other than perhaps Trippier, and none of England's performances have been obvious standouts, so this whole thread is a little confusing.

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1 hour ago, Barry Cartman said:

He can only make chances if players are making runs though and so far he's only had Lingard doing that 

But i thought Kane has been 'immense' and better than pele. Are you now suggesting that having our lone striker make some forward runs beyond the midfield might be more beneficial than playing lw or cm? 

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2 hours ago, Barry Cartman said:

Rashford

As someone who actually likes him and thinks he needs to move away now to a team where he's going to develop into a position, its insufferable how people overrate him based on coming on for the last period of a game with fresh legs and doing a little run against tired defences as if he's some world beater. When he starts for both England and Man Utd against a fresh side, you do not see the same player at all 

Rashford's usually fine starting and running at players for 90 minutes and his goals are fairly evenly distributed between first and second halves

What people miss about Rashford is that at this stage of his career he's only good in certain situations, and much more of a direct drive-towards-goal player than a link man. Has plenty of ability to beat most fullbacks for speed and tricks in the inside left channel and is also good at curving runs in behind if the defence play a high enough line, but his passing game is pretty no-frills and he tends to look lost on the right, in tight situations or coming deep (the flamboyant Neymar style showboating against Costa Rica is the exception and owed as much to Costa Rica being rubbish as the confidence boost of a solo goal)

In those areas, Sterling's a bit more inventive and his all round off the ball movement is better, which is why he starts.

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12 hours ago, Lucas Weatherby said:

Rashford over Sterling are you mad?

Sterling wouldn't have scored a penalty in the shoot out....in fact the couldn't hit a cows arse with a banjo ....period

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20 minutes ago, Gregster said:

Sterling wouldn't have scored a penalty in the shoot out....in fact the couldn't hit a cows arse with a banjo ....period

Rickie Lambert would probably score in the shoot out so I really have no idea what your point is here.

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None of the players mentioned have been great, to varying degrees, but I think the formation is a big part of it. Sterling and Alli in particular are being asked to play different roles in different positions than they play at club level and don't look sure how to make it work. Alli's also injured himself early in both his starts and Southgate has refused to withdraw him, leading to him milling around, clearly off the pace of the game(s). There are huge gaps between our defence, midfield and attack, which led to Kane virtually playing as a midfielder, in the places Alli and Lingard ought to be, for long stretches of the Colombia game second half. Unfortunately, the replacements are not much better. Rose was poor for Tottenham last season and has looked no better in his few opportunities this WC: Bertrand should be in Russia instead. Rashford is very raw, particularly his decision-making, and struggled to impact the game vs Belgium apart from missing his one-on-one. RLC has probably been the better of the replacement players, but even as a Chelsea plan desperate for him to do well, he's been far too safety conscious in his two starts and failed to take his chances. I suppose Delph would be the replacement for Lingard, and while he's a decent player, he's not exactly inspiring and has been playing at LB most of the season. Long story short: England's system isn't working brilliantly and a number of players are struggling to live up to their ability. However, the alternatives don't look much better.

Edited by shanyi
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Neymar had 2 goals and 2 assists. That's definitely not nothing. I'm beginning to think I might be the only one here thinks he isn't overrated? Hated all his diving though not gonna lie, but he did get fouled an insane amount of times. 

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England system does work, because the players are picked for the roles they do in their league teams.. would prefer Rashford over Sterling, because lets be honest Sterling has done nothing, but might be handy in a counter attack, Rashford lingard and young together might be better. due to playing at the same club, as with dier alli and kane

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3 hours ago, ryan045 said:

Both scored 2 goals didn’t they.

By your logic Salah did nothing as well. Neymar added his 2 goals with 2 assists. I'm not sure what's clouding you.

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52 minutes ago, adhikapp said:

By your logic Salah did nothing as well. Neymar added his 2 goals with 2 assists. I'm not sure what's clouding you.

We have to consider there teams. It was much more difficult for Salah playing with Egypt. Neymar should have done more with Brazil.

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5 minutes ago, ryan045 said:

We have to consider there teams. It was much more difficult for Salah playing with Egypt. Neymar should have done more with Brazil.

This is a nonsense argument. Salah didnt actually play well. Mostly because he was crocked. Trying to dismiss Neymar is one thing, but trying use the same point to back up Salah is rubbish. Neymar was far more effective than Salah was

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3 hours ago, GunmaN1905 said:

I wonder if PMLF still thinks Neymar is better than Ronaldo. :rolleyes:

I still do. Ronaldo was a better striker, but Neymar is better overall.

But Neymar doesn't have Rivaldo, Cafu, Roberto Carlos, a non-lazy Ronaldinho, etc on his side though.

But Neymar does dive way more often as well.

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