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git2thachoppa

So Messi actually has a better World Cup record than Ronaldo

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All this time I'd been told Messi doesn't turn up at a World Cup, and I just discovered it was a myth...

In fact this has been Ronaldo's only particularly notable tournament, and even with a better team around him (and an actual defence) they still finished the same round as Argentina.


Ronaldo

2006: 1 goal in 6 games

2010: 1 goal and 1 assist in 4 games

2014: 1 goal and 1 assist in 3 games

2018: 4 goals in 4 games

1 semi-final, 2 second rounds, 1 group stage exit.


Messi

2006: 1 goal and 1 assist in 3 games (but only 122 minutes, effectively 1-and-a-third games)

2010: 3 assists in 5 games

2014: 4 goals and 1 assist in 7 games

2018: 1 goal and 2 assists in 4 games

1 final, 2 quarter-finals, 1 second round and a Golden Ball.


I guess it should've been a red flag when the only Messi-critical stat BBC could come up with was "hasn't scored in a knockout game". But that doesn't mean he hasn't been integral nor provided goals in the knockouts. He got 2 assists v France, and in 2014 was Man of the Match with the assist that broke through Switzerland in extra time (I don't know about 2010 and 2006).

Edited by git2thachoppa

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1 minute ago, Bliss Seeker said:

giphy.gif

giphy.gif

Bliss Seeker spam on cue.

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22 minutes ago, git2thachoppa said:

In fact this has been Ronaldo's only particularly notable tournament, and even with a better team around him

That's debatable. Even if true, Portugal had a way worse team than Argentina in all previous tournaments, 2006 the only time being close.

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1 minute ago, FaceCrusher said:

That's debatable. Even if true, Portugal had a way worse team than Argentina in all previous tournaments, 2006 the only time being close.

Ah yeah I suppose. I think Portugal were better in 2010 though, Argentina were a bit like today when in attack they could deal with the other teams, but against one of the big teams their defence wouldn't be disciplined enough either given it was Maradona managing them.

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3 minutes ago, git2thachoppa said:

Ah yeah I suppose. I think Portugal were better in 2010 though, Argentina were a bit like today when in attack they could deal with the other teams, but against one of the big teams their defence wouldn't be disciplined enough either given it was Maradona managing them. 

No way, Portugal had useless Carlos Queiróz as manager who left Moutinho at home to take Ruben Amorim, Nani and Bosingwa were injured and only managed to score against North Korea during the tournament. He started 4 CBs against Spain with Pepe playing in midfield, what was Ronaldo supposed to do?

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Just now, FaceCrusher said:

No way, Portugal had useless Carlos Queiróz as manager who left Moutinho at home to take Ruben Amorim, Nani and Bosingwa were injured and only managed to score against North Korea during the tournament. He started 4 CBs against Spain with Pepe playing in midfield, what was Ronaldo supposed to do?

Drag his team through it like Messi so many times seems to have done? :D

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3 minutes ago, FaceCrusher said:

No way, Portugal had useless Carlos Queiróz as manager who left Moutinho at home to take Ruben Amorim, Nani and Bosingwa were injured and only managed to score against North Korea during the tournament. He started 4 CBs against Spain with Pepe playing in midfield, what was Ronaldo supposed to do?

I'd rather Queiroz then Maradonna in charge tbf :D

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4 minutes ago, G-Man11 said:

I'd rather Queiroz then Maradonna in charge tbf :D

Hey, at least Maradona played attacking football, won every match before being murdered by Germany. Easier to get assists when your only attacking partner is not Hugo Almeida. :D

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I find it hard to believe Messi has a better record than Ronaldo. Ronaldo actually won a World Cup, for one thing.

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45 minutes ago, Heartwork said:

I find it hard to believe Messi has a better record than Ronaldo. Ronaldo actually won a World Cup, for one thing.

Was about to quote this like wtf but then i guess you're doing the whole "real Ronaldo" thing :brock:

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It's shocking that Neymar will end up having a better record than Cristiano Ronaldo and Messi.

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If you think that’s shocking wait until July 15th when Jordan Henderson’s got a better World Cup record than all of them. 

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Just now, Vynal Seven said:

If you think that’s shocking wait until July 15th when Jordan Henderson’s got a better World Cup record than all of them. 

A new word will have to be made to describe that as shocking won't be good enough to describe it.

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Roque Junior won a world cup so I really don't think it's worth judging either Ronaldo or Messi negatively from their records in the competition.

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2 minutes ago, Pukey said:

Roque Junior won a world cup so I really don't think it's worth judging either Ronaldo or Messi negatively from their records in the competition.

Roque Júnior was not bad, despite his reputation in England. Of course he was not Cristiano or Messi either though.

Also Vampeta won the World Cup in 2002, so Brazilian fans even made a song mentioning that he has won the WC while Messi hasn't. :D 

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1 minute ago, PMLF said:

Roque Júnior was not bad, despite his reputation in England. Of course he was not Cristiano or Messi either though.

Also Vampeta won the World Cup in 2002, so Brazilian fans even made a song mentioning that he has won the WC while Messi hasn't. :D 

v.php?1:57820:6

Roque Junior gave thousands of Leeds fans PTSD :(

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Roque Junior going from bravely limping around in a Champions League final victory direct to looking similarly incapable of actually doing anything to influence the game as the central defensive version of Taibi for a doomed Leeds side is probably up there with the biggest footballing comedowns of all time :D 

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It's easy to forget Messi was actually pretty great in fleeting decisive moments 4 years ago, because of the ridiculous expectations placed on him, the bizarre vomiting thing he had going on plus the way he spent half the matches at walking pace, and the exaggerated call at the end to give him the best player of the tournament award. Likewise there was still fleeting important moments this tournament, if fewer, such as the goal against Nigeria and the last minute assist for Aguero against France. 

Ronaldo was better this tournament though, and I think will retire deservedly with the reputation of being the best player of the 2 at international level, largely thanks to Euro 2016 as well, in which he was genuine no-doubts incredible. And Messi had indeed better teammates to play with for Argentina overall, although he almost never really was given a balanced squad with a balanced manager (read, not a lunatic like Maradona) there.

Overall I still think Messi is the best player of the two though, and has reached a superior level in the club game. The context designed around him obviously helped, but at a stage let him reach an unparalleled level of performance, individual and above all collective, that I've never seen before or since, and for me that's what these "all-time" discussions are about. 

Edited by noikeee

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More Ronaldo Vs Messi :thdn:

It's all about Mbappe Vs Kane Vs Neymar now.

Get with the times people!

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1 hour ago, forameuss said:

Image result for alan partridge shrug gif

Why are people so desperate for one to be considered much better than the other?

It's most likely fuelled by dislike/hatred against one of the two. 

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16 hours ago, Vynal Seven said:

If you think that’s shocking wait until July 15th when Jordan Henderson’s got a better World Cup record than all of them. 

So will Gary Cahill and Ashley Young.

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22 hours ago, git2thachoppa said:

Ah yeah I suppose. I think Portugal were better in 2010 though, Argentina were a bit like today when in attack they could deal with the other teams, but against one of the big teams their defence wouldn't be disciplined enough either given it was Maradona managing them.

Really?!?!?

 

GK1Eduardo                                                                  

RB21Ricardo Costa

CB6Ricardo Carvalho

CB2Bruno Alves

LB5Duda 

DM15Pepe 

CM19Tiago 

CM16Raul Meireles 

RW10Danny

LW23Fábio Coentrão 

CF7Cristiano Ronaldo (c)

 

GK22Sergio Romero

RB17Jonás Gutiérrez 

CB2Martín Demichelis

CB13Walter Samuel

LB6Gabriel Heinze

DM14Javier Mascherano (c)

RM8Juan Sebastián Verón 

LM7Ángel Di María 

AM10Lionel Messi

CF11Carlos Tevez

CF9Gonzalo Higuaín

 

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17 hours ago, noikeee said:

It's easy to forget Messi was actually pretty great in fleeting decisive moments 4 years ago, because of the ridiculous expectations placed on him, the bizarre vomiting thing he had going on plus the way he spent half the matches at walking pace, and the exaggerated call at the end to give him the best player of the tournament award. Likewise there was still fleeting important moments this tournament, if fewer, such as the goal against Nigeria and the last minute assist for Aguero against France. 

Ronaldo was better this tournament though, and I think will retire deservedly with the reputation of being the best player of the 2 at international level, largely thanks to Euro 2016 as well, in which he was genuine no-doubts incredible. And Messi had indeed better teammates to play with for Argentina overall, although he almost never really was given a balanced squad with a balanced manager (read, not a lunatic like Maradona) there.

Overall I still think Messi is the best player of the two though, and has reached a superior level in the club game. The context designed around him obviously helped, but at a stage let him reach an unparalleled level of performance, individual and above all collective, that I've never seen before or since, and for me that's what these "all-time" discussions are about. 

Without getting into who was/is better at international level, there's not a single chance you can seriously define Cristiano Ronaldo's Euros as incredible. 

He scored a few goals, had a mixed bag of performances and limped off in the final. If he was incredible Mascherano/Messi had incredible World Cups (they didn't).

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5 minutes ago, EnterUsernameHere said:

Without getting into who was/is better at international level, there's not a single chance you can seriously define Cristiano Ronaldo's Euros as incredible. 

He scored a few goals, had a mixed bag of performances and limped off in the final. If he was incredible Mascherano/Messi had incredible World Cups (they didn't).

The performances at least against both Hungary in the group stage and Wales in the semi-final were extraordinary. Bycicle kick goal, outrageous header goal against Wales?

I'm team Messi in this debate (Messi against Ronaldo), and definitely rate higher a player that can influence a game at all stages of the pitch rather than just take the final touch, but when you score goals like that, that nobody else would, I think just the finishing touch qualifies as an incredible performance, yes.

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Just now, noikeee said:

The performances at least against both Hungary in the group stage and Wales in the semi-final were extraordinary. Bycicle kick goal, outrageous header goal against Wales?

I'm team Messi in this debate (Messi against Ronaldo), and definitely rate higher a player that can influence a game at all stages of the pitch rather than just take the final touch, but when you score goals like that, that nobody else would, I think just the finishing touch qualifies as an incredible performance, yes.

If that's your barometer then that's fine. Personally 1 goal in an otherwise quiet performance combined with similar games in a tournament is far from incredible.

I feel like I'm in the minority though, I don't think goals define a performance. He did his job, That's all. 

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1 hour ago, Marc.Foster050 said:

Really?!?!?

 

GK1Eduardo                                                                  

RB21Ricardo Costa

CB6Ricardo Carvalho

CB2Bruno Alves

LB5Duda 

DM15Pepe 

CM19Tiago 

CM16Raul Meireles 

RW10Danny

LW23Fábio Coentrão 

CF7Cristiano Ronaldo (c)

 

GK22Sergio Romero

RB17Jonás Gutiérrez 

CB2Martín Demichelis

CB13Walter Samuel

LB6Gabriel Heinze

DM14Javier Mascherano (c)

RM8Juan Sebastián Verón 

LM7Ángel Di María 

AM10Lionel Messi

CF11Carlos Tevez

CF9Gonzalo Higuaín

 

Portugal was better because Maradona was a complete moron and didn't invite Cambiasso or Zanetti.
Bottler Higuain playing instead of Milito was also a crime.

On paper, Argentina had much better names. But they didn't have anything that resembles a proper gameplan.

 

Ronaldo got the most of his international career. Won a trophy.

Messi didn't win a single one in three finals with considerably better teams over the years.

Debate ends there. History remembers the winners.

But both were subpar on national level compared to their club performance.

Edited by GunmaN1905

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1 hour ago, Marc.Foster050 said:

Really?!?!?

 

GK1Eduardo                                                                  

RB21Ricardo Costa

CB6Ricardo Carvalho

CB2Bruno Alves

LB5Duda 

DM15Pepe 

CM19Tiago 

CM16Raul Meireles 

RW10Danny

LW23Fábio Coentrão 

CF7Cristiano Ronaldo (c)

 

GK22Sergio Romero

RB17Jonás Gutiérrez 

CB2Martín Demichelis

CB13Walter Samuel

LB6Gabriel Heinze

DM14Javier Mascherano (c)

RM8Juan Sebastián Verón 

LM7Ángel Di María 

AM10Lionel Messi

CF11Carlos Tevez

CF9Gonzalo Higuaín

 

You're listing players, I compared the quality of teams.

One lost 4-0 to a contender, the other only just lost 1-0 to one of the great international sides of all time

(and drew 0-0 with Brazil but that was a bit Germany/Austria 1982, although Argentina got walloped at home to Brazil in qualifying).

4 hours ago, forameuss said:

Image result for alan partridge shrug gif

Why are people so desperate for one to be considered much better than the other?

 

2 hours ago, Cedrik said:

It's most likely fuelled by dislike/hatred against one of the two. 

This isn't a Messi v Ronaldo topic.

It was "I was lied to by the footballing world that Messi doesn't turn up at World Cups while Ronaldo does" and "these stats are amazing on both sides".

Why are people so desperate to make everything Messi v Ronaldo? :D

Edited by git2thachoppa

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14 hours ago, git2thachoppa said:

This isn't a Messi v Ronaldo topic.

Thread Title: So Messi actually has a better World Cup record than Ronaldo

14 hours ago, git2thachoppa said:

Why are people so desperate to make everything Messi v Ronaldo? :D

Thread Title: So Messi actually has a better World Cup record than Ronaldo

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8 hours ago, forameuss said:

Thread Title: So Messi actually has a better World Cup record than Ronaldo

Thread Title: So Messi actually has a better World Cup record than Ronaldo

Only reading thread titles is going to give you major problems on forums.

Go into something with a preconception without delving further, chances are you're going to 'confirm' that preconception.

Edited by git2thachoppa

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