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Would Argentina have been better without Messi?

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No.

But they would be better if he was treated as just one of 11 players and not the guy that's in charge of everything, including team selection.

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They might be more obliging of their coach and play a bit more of a team, but the quality just isn't there behind the front line. Stupid not to play three of them though. Hig and Aguero are rubbish for them but they could have played Messi, Dybala and Icardi together and it might have worked better. Not much you can do with rubbish like the goalies and Meza, and Mascherano is way past it.

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They would still have a poor coach with mediocre defenders.

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5 minutes ago, Haguey said:

They might be more obliging of their coach and play a bit more of a team, but the quality just isn't there behind the front line. Stupid not to play three of them though. Hig and Aguero are rubbish for them but they could have played Messi, Dybala and Icardi together and it might have worked better. Not much you can do with rubbish like the goalies and Meza, and Mascherano is way past it.

Paredes, Pizarro were left out and are way better than Perez, Biglia and Mascherano.

Pastore also wasn't called up.

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8 minutes ago, Haguey said:

They might be more obliging of their coach and play a bit more of a team, but the quality just isn't there behind the front line. Stupid not to play three of them though. Hig and Aguero are rubbish for them but they could have played Messi, Dybala and Icardi together and it might have worked better. Not much you can do with rubbish like the goalies and Meza, and Mascherano is way past it.

Icardi and Messi wouldn't have worked because they don't like each other

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1 minute ago, TM said:

Icardi and Messi wouldn't have worked because they don't like each other

Icardi has no reason not to like anyone on that team, he barely played with any of them.

Or the other way around.

It was probably Mascherano's doing paired with Sampaoli's idiotic tactical beliefs.

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15 minutes ago, GunmaN1905 said:

No.

But they would be better if he was treated as just one of 11 players and not the guy that's in charge of everything, including team selection.

This. He's too big for the team. If he accepted he played with who he is told to do so with (whether Icardi or whoever) and didn't get to pick his mates or his roles, then it might work. Sampaoli hasn't made the right decisions tactically, but if it was any other player sulking inside his hotel room instead of attending the squad get together, then most coaches would given them the hairdryer treatment, but Messi is placed above the overall team in the same fashion as Ronaldo in 1998. 

Who should coach Argentina now? I think a big name foreign manager might be the only way they can get the best out of Messi without him taking over the whole team.

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No.

But they would have been better if they had taken some of the players that they left out.

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Yes. they would have. 100% sure of that.

Because when you have a player that is so much better than the rest of the squad, that for some reason cannot perfectly blend in with the squad, your playing with ten men. Sweden is a great proof of this, without Zlatan they lost quality but they have become a better team. Argentina have tried with several coaches and numerous of selections to make Messi function better, that would have been great if it worked and then such sacrifices are justified. But when it doesn't you're actually decreasing the quality of the squad deliberately to make one player function better who isn't functioning, therefore it affects the performance of the team in a negative way. And now I am not even talking about the lack of work rate Messi's shows when things don't go his way, he is literally standing on the pitching doing nothing. 

Without Messi the chances are high some of the current players wouldn't have received a call-up and others who were left at home (Icardi) or played a minor role on the bench (Dybala) could have contributed more. 

Now let me be very clear about the fact that I don't blame Messi for any of this, I think Messi is a wonderful player, love to see him do this thing and I admire him greatly. His inability to really deliver for Argentina is not at all solely his fault, it is a coming together of many factors and lack of a manager who is able to implement everything in a correct order. Over the years the question has always been, how do we get the best out of Messi? In other words: the emphasis was more on one player than on the national team itself. 

Edited by Cedrik

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I'd be very surprised if Icardi doesn't like Messi as he will know he is the reason why he didn't get on the plane to Russia

just look at the Maxi Lopez story and you will get what I mean

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7 minutes ago, decapitated said:

Who should coach Argentina now? I think a big name foreign manager might be the only way they can get the best out of Messi without him taking over the whole team.

A big name foreign manager probably wouldn't be popular among fans, and he might not know Argentine players well enough to make a good selection of players.

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They have like 5 good players and they all play in the same position, their midfielders, defenders and goalkeepers are awful in terms of what a top International team like them should have.

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1 minute ago, SteveUK said:

They have like 5 good players and they all play in the same position, their midfielders, defenders and goalkeepers are awful in terms of what a top International team like them should have.

If Roma could get to CL semi-finals with Fazio, Manolas who's pretty similar to Otamendi and fullbacks that are pretty bad defensively, Argentina doesn't have an excuse for looking ridiculously bad against every single counter attack.
Except that the coach is a complete turd.

Pizarro-Paredes-Banega midfield would be huge upgrade over the current garbage they had.

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6 minutes ago, PMLF said:

A big name foreign manager probably wouldn't be popular among fans, and he might not know Argentine players well enough to make a good selection of players.

If he's good enough, he'll be able to spot talent from the domestic league very easily within a month. Is there any Argentine manager who is good enough and gettable?  Mauricio Pochettino would be the obvious choice, but good luck getting him out of Spurs clutches. Argentina needs someone who takes no messing from anyone including Messi and has a reputation to demand obedience. Is there any Argentine manager they haven't tried who could do that?

Edited by decapitated

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Not surprised by this thread, but no. Three straight major finals, helped them qualify for the world cup , whether or not he has too much of an influence  (which seems like a lot hearsay) doesn't mean he is not a net positive.

 

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9 minutes ago, PMLF said:

A big name foreign manager probably wouldn't be popular among fans, and he might not know Argentine players well enough to make a good selection of players.

I suspect Simeone will be the guy the fans want. He definitely wants the job at some point but not yet I suspect.

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Justo ahora, G-Man11 dijo:

I suspect Simeone will be the guy the fans want. He definitely wants the job at some point but not yet I suspect.

Not with current state of affairs with the current FA direction. Bunch of corrupted people inside it.

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2 minutes ago, G-Man11 said:

I suspect Simeone will be the guy the fans want. He definitely wants the job at some point but not yet I suspect.

Yes, Simeone would be the logical choice, but as @Flyman says, it can't happen right now.

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4 minutes ago, SteveUK said:

They have like 5 good players and they all play in the same position, their midfielders, defenders and goalkeepers are awful in terms of what a top International team like them should have.

There are many clubs/nations without quality players who still make a great team. Besides that I feel that the lacking of quality players in Argentina is always a bit exaggerated, mainly also as it then can be used as an excuse for the team and/or Messi not performing.

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Yes, they would be, because he wouldn't be deciding who he wants as manager or who gets to be called up for Argentina.

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May sound crazy as hes obviously one of the GOATS but weirdly i think they probably would be better off, seems to be a lot of politics and bs around their national team.

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6 minutes ago, G-Man11 said:

I suspect Simeone will be the guy the fans want. He definitely wants the job at some point but not yet I suspect.

to go from Godin and Gimenez to that shambles of an Argentine defence? he'll be waiting until they are competitive

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Also, another thing.

I know it's really difficult for him to watch some of his turd teammates, but you're the guy in that team. You can't have body language that suggests you don't want to be on the pitch throughout the whole tournament.
He didn't do anything in the leadership aspect.

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2 minutes ago, Flyman said:

Not with current state of affairs with the current FA direction. Bunch of corrupted people inside it.

Nah nothing wrong with the people running Argentinian football. Turning the top flight into a 30 team league was a stoke of genius I tell ya!

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The answer is yes imo. Not a slight on Messi's abilities but the imbalance it creates on the team both on the pitch and off it (Icardi, Dybala, etc). Of course a better coach would have done better, but that's not the question here.

Edit: also, he obviously doesn't do enough.

Edited by ubos

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38 minutes ago, GunmaN1905 said:

Icardi has no reason not to like anyone on that team, he barely played with any of them.

Or the other way around.

It was probably Mascherano's doing paired with Sampaoli's idiotic tactical beliefs.

Forget you know the ins and outs of their relationships with each other.

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Well, in this game, he was directly the cause for 2 of their 3 goals, and he created their best non converted goal chance...

And that was being the focus of the opposite team defence (where he is always taken on by 2 players)...he was hardly the problem...

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2 minutes ago, EnterUsernameHere said:

Has everyone forgotten how bad their qualifying record was without him? He's the only reason they made the World Cup at all.

Yes, because they had two puppet coaches, changed starting lineups and formations every game and had no gameplan outside of passing it to Messi who wasn't there.

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Messi isn't the problem (unless he picked the squad/team). That poor Meza guy must be thinking "why always me?" when he's subbed on.

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il y a 41 minutes, Cedrik a dit :

Yes. they would have. 100% sure of that. 

Because when you have a player that is so much better than the rest of the squad, that for some reason cannot perfectly blend in with the squad, your playing with ten men.

If just putting him in the game make the other team use 2 guys to deny him (as did croatia for exemple), you are effectively playing 10 on 9...

However, the coach should realize that it's not because he has a star that the best plan is pass the ball to him.

 

 

Edited by Cyp

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1 minute ago, GunmaN1905 said:

Yes, because they had two puppet coaches, changed starting lineups and formations every game and had no gameplan outside of passing it to Messi who wasn't there.

I don't get your point. What's that got to do with Messi and how is it going to improve if he retires?

Surely if they hire a non "Puppet" manager, said non "puppet" manager can incorporate his best asset into his set up?

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il y a 2 minutes, EnterUsernameHere a dit :

I don't get your point. What's that got to do with Messi and how is it going to improve if he retires?

Surely if they hire a non "Puppet" manager, said non "puppet" manager can incorporate his best asset into his set up?


Well i would say though that having a star CAN make bad manager worse, since they tend to renounce their will to coach and fear angering it...it's easy then to revert to pass the ball to the star and have him shoulder every single responsibility/ all the blame if it doesn't work...

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3 minutes ago, EnterUsernameHere said:

I don't get your point. What's that got to do with Messi and how is it going to improve if he retires?

Surely if they hire a non "Puppet" manager, said non "puppet" manager can incorporate his best asset into his set up?

And thus we come to the issue of finding a 'non-puppet' manager. If Sampaoli who has been fairly successful at international level can't control Messi then who? Simeone, Bielsa and Pochettino aren't avaliable or willing. the Obvious choice is either Gallardo or Barros Schelotto but does either of themhave the reputational power to control Messi if he doesn't retire. same with any manager whose only had success in Latin America. Who is to say Messi won't start dictating who gets picked, and if they stand up to him, they suddenly get sacked by the Argentine FA. 

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I don't think that inept tactics and teammates have helped Messi but there's only so much I can listen to people give Messi the benefit of the doubt on behalf of his poor performances due to those two factors alone, over the course of this tournament. Been seriously disappointed at his ability to impose himself on a game, I don't believe that you can blame his invisibility solely on others, he certainly could have done more to change his poor performances.

He was the centre of attention for the Iceland game and instead of responding to that disappointment, he seemingly went into a shell for that Croatia game, where his body language was particularly pathetic.

Obviously he was magnificent the first half vs. Nigeria but other than that, there's not really anything to speak about. It's a great shame as I think he's the greatest to ever do it but his performances here just don't really cut it and I don't think you can excuse them by blaming it on others.

Edited by ArsenalFan7

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Sampaoli is to blame for the entire WC performance.

The qualifiers were dreadful and he seemed not to have learned anything. 

He arrives in Russia and in the first two games is completely clueless, finally settling on a sort of 4-3-3 against Nigeria, which worked better because it had just a bit of logic.

Still, team selections including Mascherano (not on a good enough level anymore), Meza, Caballero, and the refusal to use guys like Dybala and Lo Celso who have proved they can be assets for the present and future.

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15 minutes ago, decapitated said:

And thus we come to the issue of finding a 'non-puppet' manager. If Sampaoli who has been fairly successful at international level can't control Messi then who? Simeone, Bielsa and Pochettino aren't avaliable or willing. the Obvious choice is either Gallardo or Barros Schelotto but does either of themhave the reputational power to control Messi if he doesn't retire. same with any manager whose only had success in Latin America. Who is to say Messi won't start dictating who gets picked, and if they stand up to him, they suddenly get sacked by the Argentine FA. 

Yeah this is all media gossip, not my thing.

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If things aren't going his way, Messi's head seems to drop, he starts just slowly wandering around the pitch waiting for people to make something for him. He doesn't seem to try and make something himself?

Like after every France goal today, Messi's expression suggested an inevitability of failure. Where's the anger or determination to fight back? Rightly or wrongly, everyone looks to him.

Also as mentioned, Argentina have like 3 billion great strikers, so losing the "GOAT" for a more varied but slightly less talented strike force could be better overall.

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36 minutes ago, EnterUsernameHere said:

I don't get your point. What's that got to do with Messi and how is it going to improve if he retires?

Surely if they hire a non "Puppet" manager, said non "puppet" manager can incorporate his best asset into his set up?

First off, if Sampaoli decides that he doesn't need the likes of Dybala or Icardi for his system, ok.

Then if he wants to implement a certain playstyle with certain players he should stick to it for at least a couple of games instead of turning everything upside down every other game.

They've been dreadful during the whole qualification phase. In the latter stages they couldn't beat Venezuela or Peru at home, with Sampaoli doing stuff like Di Maria on LWB.

They played excactly the same in qualifiers like they did in WC. Those they couldn't win without Messi phrases are for people that haven't watched any games. In the games I mentioned, they were completely clueless. 1 goal (Icardi, counted as own goal) in two home games against teams they should easily beat was just an exmple. Messi played in both of those games.

They tried to make Maradona out of him. Guy who gets the ball and does everything. And no matter how much you praise him, Messi isn't that guy, never was. (Not comparing their abilities, just style of play and tendencies.)
He spent his whole club career in one of the top teams in the world and isn't used to offensive phase having no gameplan that doesn't include him having the ball in every attack.
Just look at Barcelona these days. They're moving closer and closer towards Argentina style (or lack of it) offense with Messi having to do everything and they fail in CL three years in a row.

Sure, he won few games here and there, but ultimately they always underperformed and most of their succes as in reaching three finals came to good defensive performances, which is odd enough because most of these players that were here in 2018 played in those teams.
And his game in Ecuador where he scored a hattrick gets glorified so much and they were playing against a team that was already eliminated and playing with a reserve squad.

 

Edited by GunmaN1905

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I think one of the ways an advantage can be turned into a disadvantage in international football is for a team and a nation to believe their success is all due to one amazing player. We saw this with Ronaldo and Brazil in 1998, Salah and Egypt at this WC and Englands 'golden generation' in the late 2000s/early 2010s. It's the same with Messi but you've got the added complication (media gossip or not, there seems to be some truth in it) he has some control over tactics and coach and player selection. Teams win tournaments not individual players. 

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3 minutes ago, GunmaN1905 said:

First off, if Sampaoli decides that he doesn't need the likes of Dybala or Icardi for his system, ok.

Then if he wants to implement a certain playstyle with certain players he should stick to it for at least a couple of games instead of turning everything upside down every other game.

They've been dreadful during the whole qualification phase. In the latter stages they couldn't beat Venezuela or Peru at home, with Sampaoli doing stuff like Di Maria on LWB.

They played excactly the same in qualifiers like they did in WC. Those they couldn't win without Messi phrases are for people that haven't watched any games. In the games I mentioned, they were completely clueless. 1 goal (Icardi, counted as own goal) in two home games against teams they should easily beat was just an exmple. Messi played in both of those games.

They tried to make Maradona out of him. Guy who gets the ball and does everything. And no matter how much you praise him, Messi isn't that guy, never was. (Not comparing their abilities, just style of play and tendencies.)
He spent his whole club career in one of the top teams in the world and isn't used to offensive phase having no gameplan that doesn't include him having the ball in every attack.

Sure, he won few games here and there, but ultimately they always underperformed and most of their succes as in reaching three finals came to good defensive performances, which is odd enough because most of these players that were here in 2018 played in those teams.
And his game in Ecuador where he scored a hattrick gets glorified so much and they were playing against a team that was already eliminated and playing with a reserve squad.

 

I still don’t understand what your argument is here. You’re saying the manager is doing badly, I agree. Do you think Sampaoli does better if he doesn’t have Messi to choose from?

You think they’ll do better under a different manager and again I agree. Do you think that new manager has a better chance if Messi retires when he takes over?

I get your criticism of the management but I don’t understand what it has to do with whether Argentina are better without Messi. Any tips?

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19 minutes ago, FaceCrusher said:

Will probably sign Matías Almeyda, he's available.

Or maybe lure Gareca from Peru.

my preference would out of those two would be Gareca as I don't think he'd be messed around.

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2 minutes ago, decapitated said:

I think one of the ways an advantage can be turned into a disadvantage in international football is for a team and a nation to believe their success is all due to one amazing player. We saw this with Ronaldo and Brazil in 1998, Salah and Egypt at this WC and Englands 'golden generation' in the late 2000s/early 2010s. It's the same with Messi but you've got the added complication (media gossip or not, there seems to be some truth in it) he has some control over tactics and coach and player selection. Teams win tournaments not individual players. 

Agree about this, it’s crucial. A better manager ensures it’s an advantage rather than a disadvantage though.

On that media gossip. They say Messi started picking the team after Croatia game but Agüero is his best friend...why would he drop him if its a Messi and his mates 11?

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