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I've been registered on this place since 2015, I've been a fan of Championship Manager/Football Manager since all the way back to Championship Manager 2. To be honest I haven't played Football Manager much, or at all for god knows how many years. I think the most recent incarnation of Football Manager I purchased was 2013... I think. It was definitely before all this Steam nonsense. 

I may begin playing It again, but my question is, can you play Football Manager 2018 without steam? If not, I'll happily go back to my pre-steam Football Manager and install all recent updates.

On the issue of Steam, I think SI have really scored an own goal with this one. Literally telling people that they can't play their game without internet access and without registering to a piece of software that allows them to play a game that they own. Yeah. I don't think so. If I part with my hard earned money to BUY a game then I should expect to play the game without installing and/or registering with a weird website that gives you the keys to the game that I purchased.

Do SI even care about their fans anymore? How about the ones without net access? That was a rhetorical question, by the way. I can't imagine that their profit margin is that high, so why cut off a percentage of their revenue stream?

Madness.

 

Edited by SlayerX
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As an avid user of Steam for several years, I really don't get your argument. Steam is a free piece of software so it's not like you've got to pay any more money for the privilege. 

Steam is nothing but a benefit when it comes to PC gaming. If you don't want to be online, then you can run Steam in offline mode.

Steam gives to the ability to sign into log into it on any PC and download any game you own and play it. No discs necessary. I see nothing but benefits to this.

Also, Steam allows me to easily keep track of my library of 200+ games when I can install or uninstall at my leisure, no need to spend an hour or so searching through for the correct disc, it's all the for me ready.

Plus there's the sales. The many, MANY sales. So many good offers and in one place. You can't really argue with it.

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I'm guessing that's a "No"?

The point is that if I buy a game then It should be my choice whether I want to play it via Steam or not. It's akin to going to a book store, buying a book, and then being told that you have to register to a website of download a piece of software before you can read it.

I'm not the demographic, I suppose, I'm not into social media, I don't post everything on Facebook, etc, and I sure as hell don't want a free piece of software knowing what games I own/play. If I buy a game then I don't want to seek permission to actually play it.

That's all fine and good... for you and I, but what about people who value their privacy and/or the people who don't have net access? Or is this a "I'm alright, Jack" thing?

Edited by SlayerX
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36 minutes ago, SlayerX said:

I'm guessing that's a "No"?

The point is that if I buy a game then It should be my choice whether I want to play it via Steam or not. It's akin to going to a book store, buying a book, and then being told that you have to register to a website of download a piece of software before you can read it.

I'm not the demographic, I suppose, I'm not into social media, I don't post everything on Facebook, etc, and I sure as hell don't want a free piece of software knowing what games I own/play. If I buy a game then I don't want to seek permission to actually play it.

That's all fine and good... for you and I, but what about people who value their privacy and/or the people who don't have net access? Or is this a "I'm alright, Jack" thing?

Actually, you're wrong. It's the creator/publisher/vendor's choice through what channels he wants to distribute his product. The only choice you have is whether or not you want to buy it through said channels or not. 

 

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Whether we as users like steam or not, we have to accept that this has been part of the equation for some years now and will not change.  It is one of the conditions for buying the game, so it is your choice as a consumer whether you accept the conditions of purchase.

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Well, you are obviously able to get online because you posted here. As far as I am aware, all you have to do is go online once with Steam to register the game, then you can set Steam to offline mode.

I hear you on the question of 'what if someone can't get online', but how rare is that nowadays anyway? In 2017 90% of households had internet access (according to Office of National Statistics - UK).

Steam is unobtrusive, offers the user access to a wealth of games and is free. I don't understand why people are so against it. It's harmless.

That said, the choice is yours. If you don't like it, then you're free to feel so. If it's the social media side of things, then maybe it would help you to know that I don't use Facebook or Twitter either. Steam has never made me feel like someone is intruding in to my life, and the latest updates have made it possible to be pretty much anonymous. No one need know who you are, where you are or even what games you play.

The only person you rob is yourself, really. You are denying yourself a game you obviously want to play (or you wouldn't have felt a need to post this comment) due to a firm denial to use Steam. All you have to do is install Steam, register FM (a move made to combat piracy), set Steam to offline mode and sit back and play your game. You may even then look at Steam and find it's really quite useful.

Up to you, of course, but I don't think you really understand all there is to this, or maybe you don't want to. You're only denying yourself though, pal.

I can remember when I first got Steam myself. I was playing an MMO and a friend said 'don't you have steam?' I said 'no, and why do I need an extra program to play games?' To which he replied 'give it a go and see'. I was somewhat dubious, but 9 years later I realise it was a bloody sound decision; an expensive one (my choice to spend money), but a sound one. Give it a go and enjoy a game you want to play.

 

If you can't get online, and you are posting this somewhere else, then sorry, but you didn't make that clear.

Edited by anagain
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The one disadvantage of Steam, as far as I'm concerned is that you can't sell your game if you get fed up with it. I sort of get this if you've downloaded the game but I really don't understand why you shouldn't be able to sell a game that you've bought on a disk. To be strictly accurate you can sell the disk but the purchaser won't be able to play the game because the security code is forever linked to the original purchaser.

I can buy and sell second hand books, CDs and DVDs so why not games?

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8 hours ago, FrazT said:

Whether we as users like steam or not, we have to accept that this has been part of the equation for some years now and will not change.  It is one of the conditions for buying the game, so it is your choice as a consumer whether you accept the conditions of purchase.

This is the bottom line.

I kind of agree with the OP as I'm one of those people who hate being told what I like, what to do by 3rd parties, advertisers and algorithms. I paid my money for the product, so leave me alone. I've got every filter going to block 3rd parties so that I can surf the internet without my eyes being assaulted. At least Steam doesn't do that - it is unobtrusive other than forceably updating every patch even when they're buggy. There's also the issue of having to register online to beat piracy, so I sympathise with that. But I only ever play one computer game - this one - thus I don't use Steam for anything else and don't even look at their home screen offers and suchlike. So long as they don't pester me, I'm okay with it.

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2 hours ago, anagain said:

Well, you are obviously able to get online because you posted here. As far as I am aware, all you have to do is go online once with Steam to register the game, then you can set Steam to offline mode.

I hear you on the question of 'what if someone can't get online', but how rare is that nowadays anyway? In 2017 90% of households had internet access (according to Office of National Statistics - UK).

Steam is unobtrusive, offers the user access to a wealth of games and is free. I don't understand why people are so against it. It's harmless.

That said, the choice is yours. If you don't like it, then you're free to feel so. If it's the social media side of things, then maybe it would help you to know that I don't use Facebook or Twitter either. Steam has never made me feel like someone is intruding in to my life, and the latest updates have made it possible to be pretty much anonymous. No one need know who you are, where you are or even what games you play.

The only person you rob is yourself, really. You are denying yourself a game you obviously want to play (or you wouldn't have felt a need to post this comment) due to a firm denial to use Steam. All you have to do is install Steam, register FM (a move made to combat piracy), set Steam to offline mode and sit back and play your game. You may even then look at Steam and find it's really quite useful.

Up to you, of course, but I don't think you really understand all there is to this, or maybe you don't want to. You're only denying yourself though, pal.

I can remember when I first got Steam myself. I was playing an MMO and a friend said 'don't you have steam?' I said 'no, and why do I need an extra program to play games?' To which he replied 'give it a go and see'. I was somewhat dubious, but 9 years later I realise it was a bloody sound decision; an expensive one (my choice to spend money), but a sound one. Give it a go and enjoy a game you want to play.

 

If you can't get online, and you are posting this somewhere else, then sorry, but you didn't make that clear.

Well, I have online access, but I wasn't really talking about myself. I'm considering people who don't have access.

I appreciate your views on Steam (as well as everyone else's) but my objection is mainly down to having a strong dislike at being told what to do, and knowing me as well as I do, I'm stubborn enough to skip Football Manager as long as they continue to use Steam and I'm perfectly fine doing that. I appreciate Steam is used to combat privacy but I detest anything DRM related as it brings the whole hornets nest of "ownership" up for debate. I read recently about a Kindle user who one day discovered that Amazon had remotely deleted their eBooks without their consent. 

At the end of the day, consumers of digital goods which have some sort of DRM don't actually own the product that they've purchased, therefore, the consumer is completely at the mercy of the whims of the owner of aforementioned digital goods. Since I mentioned Facebook (and their recent controversy), people like Facebook and DRM companies only get away with their shady shenanigans because the populace allow them to.

 

Edited by SlayerX
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35 minutes ago, phnompenhandy said:

I kind of agree with the OP as I'm one of those people who hate being told what I like, what to do by 3rd parties, advertisers and algorithms. I paid my money for the product, so leave me alone. 

Exactly.

Internet wise, I'm as under-the-radar as anyone could possibly be.

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2 hours ago, anagain said:

Well, you are obviously able to get online because you posted here. As far as I am aware, all you have to do is go online once with Steam to register the game, then you can set Steam to offline mode.

 

I've used offline mode for the last year. You have to go online fairly regularly to be able to use the game, such as when there's window security updates. I'm now going to have only sporadic access to the internet for at least a few months, and it will be a huge pain in the arse if I'm not able to play the game.

I accept it's part and parcel of the game. There are lots of games that you can never play offline, but there's nothing more annoying than the 'to launch game for the first time go online' when you're launching the game for about the 200th time. It's annoying even when you do have internet access and just have to restart steam. It will be more so the first time I don't have internet access.

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13 minutes ago, vikeologist said:

I've used offline mode for the last year. You have to go online fairly regularly to be able to use the game, such as when there's window security updates. I'm now going to have only sporadic access to the internet for at least a few months, and it will be a huge pain in the arse if I'm not able to play the game.

I accept it's part and parcel of the game. There are lots of games that you can never play offline, but there's nothing more annoying than the 'to launch game for the first time go online' when you're launching the game for about the 200th time. It's annoying even when you do have internet access and just have to restart steam. It will be more so the first time I don't have internet access.

Exactly my point. And I'm sure plenty of other loyal FM fans are in the same (and worse) boats.

Even if SI charged £10+ more for non steam versions of FM, I would absolutely take it.

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You can go for ages starting the game in offline mode - I went all year once. You just have to be online to register at first. You would miss out on updates and things, but without going online you can continue playing he version installed on your computer. Never have a problem on my laptop when in a cafe or somewhere, boot it up and away I go.

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20 minutes ago, Snorks said:

You can go for ages starting the game in offline mode - I went all year once. You just have to be online to register at first. You would miss out on updates and things, but without going online you can continue playing he version installed on your computer. Never have a problem on my laptop when in a cafe or somewhere, boot it up and away I go.

Maybe you're in a 'good place'. I'm in Cambodia and the internet isn't that reliable. It cuts out regularly which is okay if the game is open but sucks if it isn't. Furthermore, I try to stay offline re Steam so I'm not caught out by buggy updates, but frequently Steam won't let me boot up FM unless I go online. I'm sure I'm not alone in having less than stellar internet service.

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19 minutes ago, SlayerX said:

Exactly my point. And I'm sure plenty of other loyal FM fans are in the same (and worse) boats.

Even if SI charged £10+ more for non steam versions of FM, I would absolutely take it.

I reluctantly use steam to play FM, always in offline mode, but like you I would prefer to pay more for a non steam version, but les face it, it is not going to happen untill there is a better anti-piracy method available

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3 hours ago, SlayerX said:

Exactly.

Internet wise, I'm as under-the-radar as anyone could possibly be.

Thats sweet,you really think your under the radar. The simply fact you posted means you are tracked somewhere. If Steam is such an issue don't play, thats cool. but I think it is very naive to think since I dont have steam or social media i'm under the radar. Why deprive yourself of the pleasure of playing this great game for some obscure reason that isnt even real. Come on I know you are all smarter than that.

 

Trevor L.

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48 minutes ago, Trevor L. said:

Thats sweet,you really think your under the radar. The simply fact you posted means you are tracked somewhere. If Steam is such an issue don't play, thats cool. but I think it is very naive to think since I dont have steam or social media i'm under the radar. Why deprive yourself of the pleasure of playing this great game for some obscure reason that isnt even real. Come on I know you are all smarter than that.

 

Trevor L.

Ever heard of a VPN? ;)

You know that I'm smarter than that? You do? How come?

Nah. I'll go back to my pre steam edition. I was happy putting the Old Firm in their play with East Fife and I'll do it again, by gum!

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It sucks, but you really have to blame the people stealing the game rather than SI. They'll lose a very small number of sales through people who won't use Steam - and therefore will not buy nearly any game these days. But if there was a non-Steam version it would be pirated on the day of release and they'd lose magnitudes more.

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6 hours ago, Hovis Dexter said:

The one disadvantage of Steam, as far as I'm concerned is that you can't sell your game if you get fed up with it. I sort of get this if you've downloaded the game but I really don't understand why you shouldn't be able to sell a game that you've bought on a disk. To be strictly accurate you can sell the disk but the purchaser won't be able to play the game because the security code is forever linked to the original purchaser.

I can buy and sell second hand books, CDs and DVDs so why not games?

Because with games that utilise Steam, you are agreeing to an individual usage licence for the software that is non-transferable. It's actually in the terms of use, etc, though not many people read that.

Essentially, you can't sell the second hand Steam games because you're legally agreeing to pay for a licence you aren't allowed to sell on.

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7 hours ago, Hovis Dexter said:

The one disadvantage of Steam, as far as I'm concerned is that you can't sell your game if you get fed up with it. I sort of get this if you've downloaded the game but I really don't understand why you shouldn't be able to sell a game that you've bought on a disk. To be strictly accurate you can sell the disk but the purchaser won't be able to play the game because the security code is forever linked to the original purchaser.

I can buy and sell second hand books, CDs and DVDs so why not games?

Actually, that's a really good point. Again it brings up the whole "ownership" question.

When you buy Football Manager (boxed) what actually is it that you own? A DVD (that's worthless if you don't agree to use Steam) a manual and a plastic box?

You really don't get much for £29.99 these days.

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3 minutes ago, SlayerX said:

Actually, that's a really good point. Again it brings up the whole "ownership" question.

When you buy Football Manager (boxed) what actually is it that you own? A DVD (that's worthless if you don't agree to use Steam) a manual and a plastic box?

You really don't get much for £29.99 these days.

As raised by the point above, you own a license for the game. That's what the CD key is for and it's the same as was the case pre-steam when you had to enter your key when first downloading a game. You're paying for a single-ownership license to play the game. 

The only difference nowadays is that there is a handy piece of software that keeps all your games neatly organised so you don't have to spend an age looking for discs.

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1 minute ago, Neotropolis said:

As raised by the point above, you own a license for the game. That's what the CD key is for and it's the same as was the case pre-steam when you had to enter your key when first downloading a game. You're paying for a single-ownership license to play the game. 

The only difference nowadays is that there is a handy piece of software that keeps all your games neatly organised so you don't have to spend an age looking for discs.

£29.99 for "ownership"? Why even sell the CD if the only thing you really require is the CD key? Why not just sell a sliver of paper with the CD key written on as well as instructions on how to download FM?

It all seems insane to me, especially the Steam thing.

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3 minutes ago, SlayerX said:

£29.99 for "ownership"? Why even sell the CD if the only thing you really require is the CD key? Why not just sell a sliver of paper with the CD key written on as well as instructions on how to download FM?

It all seems insane to me, especially the Steam thing.

I think you'll find this is all far from insane. This is exactly where Steam comes into play. Why sell the game on a disc when it can all be done electronically?

To answer your first point yes you're paying to own it but, as with any game/film/album, you're paying for the development that went into it.

At the end of the day, if you don't like it, then don't download Steam and don't buy the game. It's as easy as that.

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2 minutes ago, Neotropolis said:

I think you'll find this is all far from insane. This is exactly where Steam comes into play. Why sell the game on a disc when it can all be done electronically?

To answer your first point yes you're paying to own it but, as with any game/film/album, you're paying for the development that went into it.

At the end of the day, if you don't like it, then don't download Steam and don't buy the game. It's as easy as that.

Oh, it be very insane. It's like going to the grocery store, buying an apple and having to get permission from the people who produced it for permission to eat it. Nah, that's perfectly sane....

Why sell the game on a disc when it all can be done electronically? Umm... that's what I asked. Why bother selling the CD?

I've made a decision, I'm going to swerve FM till it gets rid of the Steam. :)

 

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If you got rid of Steam and didn't just replace it with something worse, there would be no Football Manager. Far more people can pirate these days - nearly everyone has fast home internet, far more (especially in the FM demographic) are technically knowledgeable, and the pirates could have the game cracked on the morning of release. That means far less money for SI, which means they can't afford to develop the game. Steam is the only reason so many titles are viable at all. It also means that they can easily go on sale for ridiculously cheap prices, which more than makes up for not being able to sell them on - FM18 costs less than £13 on Steam right now and just over £11 on the cheapest site available, rather than £40 it'd be otherwise.

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1 hour ago, SlayerX said:

Oh, it be very insane. It's like going to the grocery store, buying an apple and having to get permission from the people who produced it for permission to eat it. Nah, that's perfectly sane....

Why sell the game on a disc when it all can be done electronically? Umm... that's what I asked. Why bother selling the CD?

I've made a decision, I'm going to swerve FM till it gets rid of the Steam. :)

 

Whilst I would agree with a lot of your points, you are going to be swerving the game for the forseeable future.

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27 minutes ago, Spurs08 said:

If you got rid of Steam and didn't just replace it with something worse, there would be no Football Manager. Far more people can pirate these days - nearly everyone has fast home internet, far more (especially in the FM demographic) are technically knowledgeable, and the pirates could have the game cracked on the morning of release. That means far less money for SI, which means they can't afford to develop the game. Steam is the only reason so many titles are viable at all. It also means that they can easily go on sale for ridiculously cheap prices, which more than makes up for not being able to sell them on - FM18 costs less than £13 on Steam right now and just over £11 on the cheapest site available, rather than £40 it'd be otherwise.

It is still nearly £45 in game.

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3 minutes ago, Tony Wright 747 said:

It is still nearly £45 in game.

Precisely. So unless you'd manage to trade it in for £32 (not a hope in hell), it's cheaper to have it on Steam and keep it than it would be in Steam didn't exist and you sold it on after a few months before FM19 comes out! (Once the next games out, it'd be worth next to nothing).

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8 hours ago, SlayerX said:

Oh, it be very insane. It's like going to the grocery store, buying an apple and having to get permission from the people who produced it for permission to eat it. Nah, that's perfectly sane....

Why sell the game on a disc when it all can be done electronically? Umm... that's what I asked. Why bother selling the CD?

I've made a decision, I'm going to swerve FM till it gets rid of the Steam. :)

 

Because some people still prefer to install the game via CD and only use Steam and downloads for updates. That's why they sell it on DVD.

And that sucks that you'll never play FM again, but hey ho, that's your choice. Given I've happily been using Steam for nearly a decade, I'm glad they're sticking with Steam, it helps keep all my games together and makes patching easy.

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Why sell the DVD? Well, in other threads I’ve read people saying that that they look forward to getting FM for their birthdays. So I guess both they and the people who buy the present would be unhappy if there was only a download option.

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13 hours ago, Hovis Dexter said:

Why sell the DVD? Well, in other threads I’ve read people saying that that they look forward to getting FM for their birthdays. So I guess both they and the people who buy the present would be unhappy if there was only a download option.

I think that may be me! I have all previous versions on the shelf, lined up in chronological order - not sad really. :ackter:

But there is a misconception that you are buying 'the game' when you aren't really, no more so that you own a piece of football club when you buy a match ticket.

You are paying for a licence that only gives you the right to play the game, not ownership of the game. (The game being a shedload of computer code that is protected under Copyright law and Intellectual Property rights and probably a number of patents)

SI have to protect their Intellectual Property, this is an industry standard method of doing just that. 

As a consumer though, you have the right to negotiate, SI set out their terms of trade, you can accept, not accept or negotiate  same as any other trade you do. Whether you are buying a match ticket, an apple, or a car. 

As with any other seller, SI also have the right to refuse to negotiate the terms already offered, and it becomes a 'take it or leave it' scenario so it is really up to you - how much do you want to pay the game?

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40 minutes ago, Snorks said:

I think that may be me! I have all previous versions on the shelf, lined up in chronological order - not sad really. :ackter:

lol - not really, I think it's great! I still have the disc and case for Championship Manager 97/98.

Oh, it's not really important but I made a mistake on my opening post. I've been here since 2005, no 2015. Not that it matters.

Thanks for your answers, all. :)

Edited by SlayerX
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