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Group B (BBC One from 6:30pm BST, kick-off 7pm) - Iran v Portugal (BBC One) / Spain v Morocco (BBC Four) - ALL PERMUTATIONS LISTED

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1 minute ago, Sid1984 said:

VAR is brilliant. However this ref was a clown. In a same way a Bugatti is an amazing car but no ur if you put a blind man as driver.

Yeah it's not the guns fault, it's the numpties that use them.

:ackter:

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6 minutes ago, daylight said:

Why does Alan Shearer keep saying "If he thinks that's deliberate hand ball" ? It doesn't have to be deliberate hand ball to be a penalty.

Handling the ball involves a deliberate act of a player making contact with the ball with the hand or arm.

The following must be considered:

  • the movement of the hand towards the ball (not the ball towards the hand)
  • the distance between the opponent and the ball (unexpected ball)
  • the position of the hand does not necessarily mean that there is an offence

 

-

Obviously in practice players who move their hand into a position to potentially block a shot/cross before it's actually taken often get penalised, but not usually players whose arm happens to get in the way of a misdirected header

Edited by enigmatic

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Gary Lineker going against the BBC anti-VAR agenda. :lol:

Proof that VAR is great just like linesmen, goal line technology etc. were, but you can't fix bad or corrupt refs, whether they're on the pitch or in the VAR office.

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Just now, enigmatic said:

 

Handling the ball involves a deliberate act of a player making contact with the ball with the hand or arm.

The following must be considered:

  • the movement of the hand towards the ball (not the ball towards the hand)
  • the distance between the opponent and the ball (unexpected ball)
  • the position of the hand does not necessarily mean that there is an offence

That's why I posted again, if the arm is an unnatural position then the ref gives the pen.

I am not sure if it was a pen but if his arm is up then it can be deemed to be a pen.

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For a moment there I thought BBC had put on Eastenders 20 minutes earlier. The last part of the game wasn't football, it was a soap :D 

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Also, there is no way in the world that was ever a penalty in a million years and the fact that there is a debate over it on this forum makes me a little sad :( 

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You know what, **** it. That was some great entertainment.

As long as it doesn't screw England over...

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If you listen to the pundits throughout the regular season you will hear everyone of them say, "If you put your arm up then you're giving the ref something to think about, no need to have your arm up in the box", they all say it!

Edited by daylight

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It can be if the referee deems the player deliberately stuck his arms out sideways because he expected the header to be more or less directly downwards, but that's an unusual conclusion to come to...

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I think why he gave it as the ball was headed towards the goal, was it the right decision? I don't think so but "He gave the ref something to think about".  ;) 

Edited by daylight

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Based on the tournament so far you'd have to fancy Russia and Uruguay to beat Spain and Portugal, respectively. 

However Russia beating Spain would be a huge upset, despite Russia actually doing well in a similar-ability group. Spain were shocking in the groups tbh.

Also, Uruguay and Portugal could easily be the first 0-0 of the tournament (if we haven't had one by then). Both teams love it scrappy and will fancy their chances I think. Hard call, but Uruguay have yet to concede and I think their attack troubles Portugal more than vice-versa. Reckon this will be decided late on. 

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What a barmy match.. 

Understand its the refs fault, but **** me, what a ridiculous system. We knew it was going to a little bit experimental, but it's such a flawed system in its current form. 

 

If they don't set hard lines, unmovable public guidelines for referees to follow, not interperate, they might as well rip it up and not use it from the second round onwards. 

Edited by Bliss Seeker

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14 minutes ago, Marc Albrighton said:

I absolutely hate it when people make the most ridiculous comparisons to make a point like its a good one, it really isn't.

Is it the tools fault or the users? It's an age old argument.

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18 minutes ago, daylight said:

Why does Alan Shearer keep saying "If he thinks that's deliberate hand ball" ? It doesn't have to be deliberate hand ball to be a penalty.

Well.... Yeas and no. The law requires it to be "deliberate" (as @enigmatic posted). The problem is that "deliberate" as defined buy FIFA is quite far away from "deliberate" as it is defined by an dictionary. So basically Shearer is correct but he still doesn't know ****...  :D 

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Very interesting scorelines throughout both matches. Iran really should have tried something earlier, I definitely felt they had a huge chance but if you wait until stoppage time you're in general too late with your effort. Loved the VAR in the match, correct decision with the penalty for Portugal, correct decision to not send Ronaldo off and even though Cédric didn't deliberately touch te ball,  a correct decision to award a penalty to Iran

Not really happy with the final table though. Portugal vs Uruguay and Spain vs Russia will be probably not be very interesting to watch. 

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There was another similar handball in another game and I'm sure it was given...nowhere near this much fuss over it...can't remember now...was Poulsen (Denmark) I think?

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9 minutes ago, Baptista_8 said:

There was another similar handball in another game and I'm sure it was given...nowhere near this much fuss over it...can't remember now...was Poulsen (Denmark) I think?

Yes to everything - except the fuss. There was quite a lot of fuss about it. In both cases the ref was wrong, in my opinion. For what that's worth.

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By the way, the flat 4 in Portugal's midfield is not working. From day one. Iran's whole team between the midfield and the 2 forwards. Should switch to 4-1-3-2 imo with William sitting deep and using an attacking midfielder.

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Plenty of fuss about Poulsen's, but it was raised higher than his other arm between the player and the goal and blocked a clearly goalbound shot, so it was borderline rather than odd.

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1 hour ago, FaceCrusher said:

By the way, the flat 4 in Portugal's midfield is not working. From day one. Iran's whole team between the midfield and the 2 forwards. Should switch to 4-1-3-2 imo with William sitting deep and using an attacking midfielder.

Or just play Ronaldo LW in a 433. They had the personnel out there for a 433, but they played a 442. Strange. I get that Ronaldo as the best player goes up front, but that stems from a Euro campaign where he had the likes of Eder to play ST. Now with Bernardo RW and Silva ST, Ronaldo could easily go back to LW and the team would look much better as a result imo. 

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34 minutes ago, JDownie said:

Or just play Ronaldo LW in a 433. They had the personnel out there for a 433, but they played a 442. Strange. I get that Ronaldo as the best player goes up front, but that stems from a Euro campaign where he had the likes of Eder to play ST. Now with Bernardo RW and Silva ST, Ronaldo could easily go back to LW and the team would look much better as a result imo. 

And we'd go straight back to the days when any team who could double up down their right flank, had an awesome time against us since Ronaldo doesn't track back. Plus you get him further away from goal that way, pushed onto a wing.

Nope, Ronaldo belongs in 4-4-2 variants these days.

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Plus Ronaldo simply isn't a winger anymore, he's a poacher. Why play a poacher out wide?

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28 minutes ago, G-Man11 said:

Plus Ronaldo simply isn't a winger anymore, he's a poacher. Why play a poacher out wide?

Why force Joao Mario to act like a winger when he's clearly not? 

Same question you're asking me really. 

If Ronaldo LW doesn't work like suggested, I'd say that Ronaldo ST is equally ineffective, given they only won one of 3 and even that was a bit of a struggle. 

At the very least, play Ronaldo up front on his own and get the rest of the team to work around that. Don't just push round pegs into square holes because square pegs don't fit into round holes either. 

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44 minutes ago, noikeee said:

And we'd go straight back to the days when any team who could double up down their right flank, had an awesome time against us since Ronaldo doesn't track back. Plus you get him further away from goal that way, pushed onto a wing.

Nope, Ronaldo belongs in 4-4-2 variants these days.

As I said, Ronaldo as a lone ST makes more sense in that case then. 

It's pretty clear Portugal don't have the personnel for an effective 442. They still get opened up centrally due to a 2 man midfield. They get opened up down the flanks because they lack a true LM. Certainly, Joao Mario is not the answer. 

Playing ugly 442 when your team is full of technically gifted players is just bonkers. I don't get it at all. At the very least Portugal could play semi-exciting Leicester City-style football. But they're more like Stoke City under Tony Pulis. 

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What a petty, scummy team Iran were. Glad I don’t have to watch them again for at least another 4 years.

Irony is they matched Portugal football wise and if they put more effort into scoring as they did trying to wind up the opposition and con the ref they probably would have won.

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Absolutely enthralling games but wtf was the ref playing at in Portugal/Iran, that was never a pen. I think Ronaldo was lucky to escape a red.

He was so indecisive, a few of those he's standing there watching and still reviews and still gives a useless decision! Worst VAR game of the tournament, which will be used to show the whole system is rubbish. It still needs a good ref.

You can't deny the suspence in what was already a bitty and niggly game but if my team was involved I am not sure I'd have felt the same.

That late Iranian chance too ... I was off my seat for that one!

Upshot of it all ... Spain and Portugal through, as everyone predicted :D  I am not no one would have thought neither Spain or Portugal would finish with 6 points though.

Spain have been behind to Portugal twice (?) and Morocco twice, some defensive errors, jeez!

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9 hours ago, D_LO_ said:

Probably needs to be someone other than Joao Mario though, Guerreiro was still frequently exposed against Morocco. 

It's true that this tournament that wing has been our weak spot, but who would you play there instead?

To an extent it's unavoidable since Guerreiro is just simply way off form and he was getting mugged 1 v 1, that's not the wide midfielder's full responsibility since he's tracking another player. And I'm not convinced the alternatives in the squad to Guerreiro are better.

 

8 hours ago, JDownie said:

Why force Joao Mario to act like a winger when he's clearly not? 

Same question you're asking me really. 

If Ronaldo LW doesn't work like suggested, I'd say that Ronaldo ST is equally ineffective, given they only won one of 3 and even that was a bit of a struggle. 

At the very least, play Ronaldo up front on his own and get the rest of the team to work around that. Don't just push round pegs into square holes because square pegs don't fit into round holes either. 

 

8 hours ago, JDownie said:

As I said, Ronaldo as a lone ST makes more sense in that case then. 

It's pretty clear Portugal don't have the personnel for an effective 442. They still get opened up centrally due to a 2 man midfield. They get opened up down the flanks because they lack a true LM. Certainly, Joao Mario is not the answer. 

Playing ugly 442 when your team is full of technically gifted players is just bonkers. I don't get it at all. At the very least Portugal could play semi-exciting Leicester City-style football. But they're more like Stoke City under Tony Pulis. 

João Mário isn't being played dramatically out of position, the best season of his career was a similar wide midfielder role in the right wing for Sporting. He's not on brilliant form but did better against Iran than in the previous 2 matches IMO.

The reason Ronaldo isn't played as lone striker it's the same reason why Real pick Benzema next to him instead of playing Ronaldo alone. He doesn't like to play lone striker and definitely plays worse without a partner. A striker opens up space for him to run into, he's good at running into the box and using the momentum to anticipate himself to defenders, not at staying still upfront when he becomes more predictable and influences the game less. It's been tried for us before and it doesn't work, also André Silva made quite a formidable duo with him during qualifying. Best Benzema impression I've seen, made Ronaldo play better. It should've been André Silva-Ronaldo upfront from the beginning, but Guedes was on better form leading up to the tournament now and did well in a friendly, unfortunately he played two horrendous matches against Spain and Morocco.

To say "Ronaldo upfront is uneffective since we only won 1 of the 3 matches" is a complete joke, he scored 4 goals ffs. :D

I'd rather have João Mário look like more of a square peg in a round hole than Ronaldo.

We need to play 4-4-2 or a variant of it, it's been proven time and time again over the last 4 years or so it's the best formation for us defensively hands down. I can't vouch for the ugliness of our playing style, I think we could've been more positive indeed and less keen to play the long ball, but you can play a more positive game in a 4-4-2, there's so many different ways to play it, it doesn't need to be run-down-the-wings-and-cross neither, Barcelona played 4-4-2 successfully for large portions of this season and didn't lose their pass-and-move identity at all.

That being said I don't think it's perfect, every tactic has its disadvantages and 2 are clear at the moment:

- we're lacking a midfielder or wide midfielder that can hold the ball more, run with it and relieve pressure from our backline, because we're often getting cornered too deep then lose back possession too quickly when trying to transition back to attack. In the Euros Renato Sanches did this role great, now we have Bernardo Silva who is a totally different player but in this context could do a similar job, but unfortunately he's been playing way below his level and just not having a good WC.

- the other issue is that our 2 CMs are getting too easily dragged vertically indeed, this is mostly William Carvalho's fault, he is great with the ball on his feet and at times looked excellent with it yesterday, but takes an absolute lifetime to track back when he's gone up to press, and in the mean time the CBs are left all alone with no help whatsoever. This could be easily fixed by swapping him with his substitute Danilo Pereira in certain matches and situations, but unfortunately Danilo's injured and unavailable for this tournament.

Edited by noikeee

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I actually felt that Guedes played better than André Silva did last night, only Guedes seemed a little nervous but definitely was more dangerous. 

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What do you think about Bernardo Silva @noikeee? He obviously has huge potential and fantastic skill and technique, but he seems very timid to me currently, doesn't seem the most aggressive of players either. Seems the type of player who will flourish in a team that dominates the ball.

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13 hours ago, daylight said:

The arm was high, the balls going towards the goal, you see a lot of them given over a season.

These pundits say it all the time, "the arm is in unnatural position".

 

Doesn't matter what the pundits say. They're wrong.

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2 minutes ago, Tiger666 said:

Doesn't matter what the pundits say. They're wrong.

It was more of a comment because the same pundits were going nuts that this penalty was given.

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Told a friend to watch the Spain vs Morocco match as I watched the Iran vs Portugal one while keeping eachother updated if anything happens. Ended up texting eachother almost every second for the last 20 minutes because so much was happening in both games :D 

Also, that was never a penalty for Iran, and can't even believe there's a debate. Cedric was in the middle of landing from his jump and the ball hit his hand from a downward header behind him, no way he could avoid it. What was he supposed to do? You try jumping for a header and not have your arms on the side like that with someone else competing for the header are all over your back in the air.

Give credit to Azmoun who jumped way higher for the header, and Iran was great in the tournament. I sincerely believe that if Iran was drawn in another group, they would have made the Ro16 easily.

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44 minutes ago, Cedrik said:

I actually felt that Guedes played better than André Silva did last night, only Guedes seemed a little nervous but definitely was more dangerous. 

What :D

André Silva was having an excellent game yesterday IMO, very little or no chances whatsoever in the area but that's the fault of lack of service, he was holding the ball up all over the pitch pretty excellently, which Guedes was rubbish at in the previous matches. It's only in the last 10 or 15 mins that André Silva went a bit off and started misplacing passes and losing balls.

Guedes has had an horrendous world cup, he's been very nervous every match.

44 minutes ago, Baptista_8 said:

What do you think about Bernardo Silva @noikeee? He obviously has huge potential and fantastic skill and technique, but he seems very timid to me currently, doesn't seem the most aggressive of players either. Seems the type of player who will flourish in a team that dominates the ball.

Think that's pretty much spot on. He's seemed nervous, much like Guedes (if not as bad), and I believe he simply plays much better in a possession set-up. Still I've been disappointed with him, I was expecting more even in this gameplan. He's started to look good in recent months in World Cup preparation friendlies and the last few matches of qualification, and hasn't played to that level here.

He's gonna be our best player in the post-Ronaldo era, and whilst we're obviously going to struggle without Ronaldo anyway, he needs to learn to step up and deal with pressure better or we're gonna have even bigger problems IMO.

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Yeah...I thought Andre Silva played well last night. Could actually hold onto the ball in tight areas unlike Guedes in the previous games.

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13 minutes ago, noikeee said:

What :D

André Silva was having an excellent game yesterday IMO, very little or no chances whatsoever in the area but that's the fault of lack of service, he was holding the ball up all over the pitch pretty excellently, which Guedes was rubbish at in the previous matches. It's only in the last 10 or 15 mins that André Silva went a bit off and started misplacing passes and losing balls.

Guedes has had an horrendous world cup, he's been very nervous every match.

Don't agree at all, feel you're exaggerating here in both cases. Let's agree to disagree on this matter. Curious to see though who will start against Uruguay, I would go with Guedes again. 

What are the expectations btw for that coming match? I personally feel Uruguay has more overall quality but dunno how this is seen in Portugal. 

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Agree with what as been said, Ronaldo has to play in a front 2, that's how to take the best out of him and this is the great merit of Fernando Santos as Portugal's manager, as he was the first to figure that out 4 years ago. Lone striker meant our best player would simply be marked off the match. Winger, he doesn't track back and would keep him farther from the goals. That was the 21 year old Ronaldo, world class winger beating any fullback, not anymore.

As I said, I would swap to a slightly narrower 4-1-3-2 with William sitting deep taking the ball from CBs (he's too slow to be dragged around the pitch) and playing a more advanced midfielder to connect with the forwards. Renato Sanches did that role at Euro 16, but as moving abroad ruined him, Bruno Fernandes or Manuel Fernandes could do that role now. Or even Adrien to a lesser extent. Bernardo Silva and especially João Mário on the wings would cut inside more and get closer to the middle man. Let the fullbacks take turns going forward hugging the sideline.

Uruguay switched their flat 442 from the first two matches to some sort of a diamond vs Russia and it made a huge difference. If we go with the flat 442 vs that, I think it will be very difficult.

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