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34 minutes ago, RedNomad said:

y'all seem to fluctuate between a massive sense of entitlement (eg. "it's coming home"  as soon as they've beaten Tunisia), and being hopelessly pessimistic and defeatist. 

In general I have no option but to agree, but the important missing piece from this year's puzzle was that the "it's coming home" sentiment wasn't entitled like it has been in years gone by - it was ironic.

And it almost happened in spite of that!

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The other thing to note is that defeatism seems to be significantly reduced. The "oh we were ****", "we've done it again" school of thought seems to be in a minority for once. Most people I've spoken to today, myself included, are more just disappointed but appreciative of the fact that we had a real good go at it when we were generally considered no-hopers at this tournament.

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13 minutes ago, Wigmore said:

The other thing to note is that defeatism seems to be significantly reduced. The "oh we were ****", "we've done it again" school of thought seems to be in a minority for once. Most people I've spoken to today, myself included, are more just disappointed but appreciative of the fact that we had a real good go at it when we were generally considered no-hopers at this tournament.

We were considered no hopers with the likes of Germany, Brazil, Argentina, Spain etc in it. Once they fell the mood changed and we had our best chance to ever reach a final. Thats whats more disappointing, so many "big" nations fell and with the side of the draw we got it was ours for the taking.

Im not sure we will ever get an easier route (on paper) to a final than we did

Edited by Paul Bacon

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I agree with the "we'll never have an easier route" stuff, but also I'd like to think we will have better players at future World Cups, so even if the route is tougher, we will be better equipped to navigate it. I'd love to really believe again like I did from 96 through to 06ish, this World Cup was fun but I never truly believed we would have done France or Belgium in the final.

Edited by Coulthard's Jaw

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1 hour ago, Barry Cartman said:

We really must have the worst set of 'fans' in the world, couldn't wait for us to be knocked out so they can say how **** we were, but at the same time would have been celebrating had we won it 

Only nation that I know smashes up ambulances attacks ambulance men, jumps on other people's cars and fight with their own fans 

Media write off the opposition thinking England should win 

Regarding what did Gerrard achieve well they beat Germany in their won back yard 5 1 and beat Germany in World Cup first time in a long time and other year lampard hit an amazing shot agaisnt the bar which had var been around would have given a goal and good chance of England progressing 

If Scotland were celebrating wins agaisnt Tunisia and Panama and defeats agaisnt Belgium and Croatia the English would be laughing and mocking at them if media and fans give it they have to be prepared to take it too 

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16 minutes ago, Wigmore said:

The other thing to note is that defeatism seems to be significantly reduced. The "oh we were ****", "we've done it again" school of thought seems to be in a minority for once. Most people I've spoken to today, myself included, are more just disappointed but appreciative of the fact that we had a real good go at it when we were generally considered no-hopers at this tournament.

Yeah I've not run into anyone in person today who's being super negative about things. It's mostly just people feeling deflated/disappointed but being generally happy that we got as far as we did.

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9 minutes ago, Tony7 said:

If Scotland were celebrating wins agaisnt Tunisia and Panama and defeats agaisnt Belgium and Croatia the English would be laughing and mocking at them if media and fans give it they have to be prepared to take it too 

This is gibberish, think the media and fans were pretty positive about Wales in 2016 weren't they? 

English media and fans do so much dumb stuff, always baffling to me that people feel the need to make up stuff rather than keep it factual, plenty of material for you there folks.

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Just now, Coulthard's Jaw said:

This is gibberish, think the media and fans were pretty positive about Wales in 2016 weren't they? 

English media and fans do so much dumb stuff, always baffling to me that people feel the need to make up stuff rather than keep it factual, plenty of material for you there folks.

Wales are lauded as heroes. And rightly so. 

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It was an enjoyable few weeks.. but could have been so much more. Won't get a chance like this again.

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not going to say I know a lot about tactics but can anyone tell me why Kane was playing mostly as a CAM (or off the striker) in the 2nd half/ET of the Colombia and Croatia games?

he's England's No9, now I know things have changed with reference to the 9 shirt being the direct striker but if he's the biggest threat of scoring goals, why is he outside the box trying to create? The game last night in the 2nd half and most of ET was baffling considering the guy's goal record this year and in the tournament.  Surely Rashford could have played as a CAM/CF with Vardy/Kane upfront?

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To many attacking midfielders vacating the middle = Kane coming deep

Also means we can't play from the back, as our only midfielder is marked our pressed

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3 minutes ago, TM said:

not going to say I know a lot about tactics but can anyone tell me why Kane was playing mostly as a CAM (or off the striker) in the 2nd half/ET of the Colombia and Croatia games?

he's England's No9, now I know things have changed with reference to the 9 shirt being the direct striker but if he's the biggest threat of scoring goals, why is he outside the box trying to create? The game last night in the 2nd half and most of ET was baffling considering the guy's goal record this year and in the tournament.  Surely Rashford could have played as a CAM/CF with Vardy/Kane upfront?

The aim seemed to be hold up the ball to release Sterling. Not really sure. But it never worked apart from drawing loads of fouls against Colombia. 

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I'm proud of how England have done.

The important part is how we build from this before the next World Cup. We've got some great young players in the youth set up, so the future could get very rosy.

However, I guarantee that Germany, Spain, Portugal and Argentina, as well as teams that didn't qualify, like Holland and Italy will rebuild. 

 

 

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I don't think I am the only person to think we overachieved and getting to the semi-final flattered us a bit. We have a completely different spirit and confidence permeating the team which is perhaps what has been missing, but from a pure footballing point of view we are some way off.


A lack of midfield presence is obvious (perhaps we missed the Ox) but as has been said, playing Dele and Lingard in CM means you have 4 players all who naturally want to be playing forward isolating Henderson and forcing Kane to drop deep.  Am I also right to say the only goal scored from open play was Lingards against Panama. I know this point is perhaps being blown out of proportion in the media, but the lack of chances created from open play in some games is concerning and the chances that we did have that were missed are also not great. 

I really don't want to put a downer on this though and I certainly wouldn't agree with some of the nonsense that has been posted already, I just think there were some glaring issues, but the most important thing seems to be that the mood surrounding the whole England national team is shifting, which is great news for the future. 

Edited by Craigus89

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wasn't Alli's header from Sweden a goal from open play? don't think it was a free kick for the cross

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No plan b is my main concern. Why didn't he put two DMCs in, Modric etc had free reign in behind Lingaard/Alli, why two up top @ 1-0....

Above post is how I feel, i'm pleased the nation got behind the team but same time they're foolish to think we did that well. 

Edited by Citizen Kane

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5 minutes ago, Citizen Kane said:

No plan b is my main concern. Why didn't he put two DMCs in, Modric etc had free reign in behind Lingaard/Alli, why two up top @ 1-0....

Above post is how I feel, i'm pleased the nation got behind the team but same time they're foolish to think we did that well. 

We could have been better. Tactically we got it wrong in terms if not being able to adapt. 

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What a World Cup it was, not just for England but in general. Are we disappointed as England fans? Of course we are. But that disappointment, as difficult as it is to take, is far outweighed by the sense of pride in a nation for coming together and supporting this team like we haven't for many a year and tournament.

England have never gone this far in a World Cup in my lifetime and it was an incredible ride watching this young side take the bull by the horns and really go for it, something which makes me proud as opposed to the usual feelings of despair and dread which normally coincides with an England tournament exit.

The vast majority of this squad should and more than likely will be at the next World Cup in 4 years time and that can only bode well as we look ahead. I understand a lot of points being made on here about the lack of a plan B and to an extent it's true, Kane was a shadow of his usual self in last night's game, but at the end of the day, that side did something we hadn't been able to achieve for 28 years, 16 years ago was supposed to be our golden generation and they didn't manage it, yet this side did.

You can only beat who's put in front of you in a World Cup and although in my opinion we possess better players than Croatia, they played better as a team last night. 

All we can hope is that this immense disappointment is built upon. The FA, whatever people may say about the organisation, has targeted the 2022 World Cup for success. We almost brought it 4 years early, but take nothing away from what has been a fantastic month for the England national side and country as a whole. Things can only get better.

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1 hour ago, Tony7 said:

Only nation that I know smashes up ambulances attacks ambulance men, jumps on other people's cars and fight with their own fans 

Media write off the opposition thinking England should win 

Regarding what did Gerrard achieve well they beat Germany in their won back yard 5 1 and beat Germany in World Cup first time in a long time and other year lampard hit an amazing shot agaisnt the bar which had var been around would have given a goal and good chance of England progressing 

If Scotland were celebrating wins agaisnt Tunisia and Panama and defeats agaisnt Belgium and Croatia the English would be laughing and mocking at them if media and fans give it they have to be prepared to take it too 

When did we beat Germany in a World Cup?

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1 hour ago, Tony7 said:

Only nation that I know smashes up ambulances attacks ambulance men, jumps on other people's cars and fight with their own fans 

Media write off the opposition thinking England should win 

Regarding what did Gerrard achieve well they beat Germany in their won back yard 5 1 and beat Germany in World Cup first time in a long time and other year lampard hit an amazing shot agaisnt the bar which had var been around would have given a goal and good chance of England progressing 

If Scotland were celebrating wins agaisnt Tunisia and Panama and defeats agaisnt Belgium and Croatia the English would be laughing and mocking at them if media and fans give it they have to be prepared to take it too 

some right negative comments there considering England's recent record at major tournaments.  2014 in Brazil, didn't make it out of the groups, bottom of their group table, Euro 2016 - lost to Iceland in the last 16

Tunisia and Panama were drawn against England, you can only play who the organisers draw you against.  They decided to try their luck in the "easier" path and it almost worked.  The SF V Croatia should have been finished by half time really and then in the 2nd half, England seemed to forget how to play and let Croatia get on top of them.  If you can't be positive about getting to the last 4 of a tournament then what can you be positive about when it comes to a national team? It feels like 50 years ago I was racing home from school to watch Brazil V Scotland in the first game of the 1998 World Cup, in reality it's only 20 years but I'd love to see Scotland at any major tournament at some point.  It wasn't the best of teams (on paper) but England can't do much about Germany, Argentina, Brazil etc failing

apart from the bandwagon jumpers (non-footbal fans on TV) I don't really think the media have been as bad this time around, they've more been hopeful than expecting and that's because the team are young, not the "golden generation" of Scholes, Lampard, Gerrard etc

Edited by TM

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1 minute ago, TM said:

some right negative comments there considering England's recent record at major tournaments.  2014 in Brazil, didn't make it out of the groups, Euro 2016 - lost to Iceland in the last 16

Tunisia and Panama were drawn against England, you can only play who the organisers draw you against.  They decided to try their luck in the "easier" path and it almost worked.  The SF V Croatia should have been finished by half time really and then in the 2nd half, England seemed to forget how to play and let Croatia get on top of them.  If you can't be positive about getting to the last 4 of a tournament then what can you be positive about when it comes to a national team? It feels like 50 years ago I was racing home from school to watch Brazil V Scotland in the first game of the 1998 World Cup, in reality it's only 20 years but I'd love to see Scotland at any major tournament at some point.  It wasn't the best of teams (on paper) but England can't do much about Germany, Argentina, Brazil etc failing

apart from the bandwagon jumpers (non-footbal fans on TV) I don't really think the media have been as bad this time around, they've more been hopeful than expecting and that's because the team are young, not the "golden generation" of Scholes, Lampard, Gerrard etc

but Lampard ONCE HIT A CROSSBAR! 

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57 minutes ago, gavo01 said:

I'm proud of how England have done.

The important part is how we build from this before the next World Cup. We've got some great young players in the youth set up, so the future could get very rosy.

However, I guarantee that Germany, Spain, Portugal and Argentina, as well as teams that didn't qualify, like Holland and Italy will rebuild. 

 

 

I said the same to my father in law last week, England had a great chance this time, no way will Germany ever be that bad again, or Spain for that matter.
Holland and Italy not being there, they will also build, then you had the way the draw opened up.

In fairness this World Cup has been a bit poor, England going further kept people interested.
I think too many sides never showed up, even France haven't looked that good and yet they are in the final, Croatia looked good in one game and they're in the final.

Just feels like the tournament has been a bit of a let down.

Edited by daylight

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It's a letdown because football is evolving into something that's becoming less and less entertaining to watch for the neutrals.

It's much easier to create a defenisvely great team than to create aesthetically pleasing, possession based offense.
And that especially applies to national teams, where even the top teams are limited on some positions.

Sweden and Russia got into QF and if you look at their teams, they both have maybe 2 decent offensive players each.
What are coaches supposed to do with that? Of course that they will play to their strengths because i'ts much easier to make average players looks solid defensively than offensively.

Also, why would Deschamps risk going all out attack, even though he has the quality? It's painfully obvious that playing rigid, with counter-attacks and set-pieces as main goal-scoring threats is way more rewarding.

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29 minutes ago, Barry Cartman said:

but Lampard ONCE HIT A CROSSBAR! 

He actually scored FWIW. Also scored 3 goals in a European Championship, against France, Croatia and Portugal. Not that he was ever anything special for England.

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https://www.theguardian.com/football/2018/jul/12/kyle-walker-england-world-cup-prove-people-wrong-gareth-southgate

This is a good article documenting Kyle Walker's post-match thoughts. Comes across a little self-indulgent, but his sentiments are absolutely spot on about public support for the England national team being back.

For a very long time, since 2010 at least, I could not really care less about the fortunes of the England team. I just didn't feel any connection to the players, management or style and saw no reason to get excited about them. I found the Iceland defeat far more amusing than humiliating, didn't watch a single qualifier for this World Cup, and even before this tournament I was hoping for either a win or a suitably comical exit.

I didn't get either of the things that I hoped for, but what I did get was better than both of those things - I got a team I genuinely supported and wanted to win. I don't know about anyone else but for me it's been truly amazing. Yes, they had an easy run of games. Yes, they are absolutely nowhere near the best team in the tournament. And yes, they were poor last night. But they are likeable, playing the game in the right way, and are not only watchable but instilling a long-departed sense of pride.

In terms of the England national team, my entire life to date has been full of moments that are totally forgettable and frankly embarrassing. In this tournament alone, the shootout against Colombia and the entire day out watching the Sweden game will live a very long time in my memory. It's been fantastic.

Edited by Wigmore

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Can’t say I’ve paid too much attention to the third place playoffs. Do teams normally put out a strong side or give the fringe players a run out?

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1 hour ago, Craigus89 said:

I don't think I am the only person to think we overachieved

Did we though? Ok before a ball was kicked getting to the semis would have been a massive overachievement. But the way the draw played out, and all the other big teams failing to quality/get knocked out early then getting to the semis was probably the least we should have done.

I hope getting to the semis doesnt mask the shortcomings we have it our team and tactics

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Big thing for England is getting a better holding midfielder. Henderson isn’t great on the ball under pressure.

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13 minutes ago, Bigwig said:

Can’t say I’ve paid too much attention to the third place playoffs. Do teams normally put out a strong side or give the fringe players a run out?

Depends a bit I guess. Four years ago the Dutch national team really went for that third place, mainly due to the experience of staf members who played in the WC 1998. At that time the Dutch squad was apparently so disappointed having lost the semi-final that they didn't really took the third place play-off seriously, later they regretted this a lot though.

I hope England and Belgium will also decide to really go for the third place. I think it would be a huge achievement for both countries. 

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10 minutes ago, Paul Bacon said:

Did we though? Ok before a ball was kicked getting to the semis would have been a massive overachievement. But the way the draw played out, and all the other big teams failing to quality/get knocked out early then getting to the semis was probably the least we should have done.

I hope getting to the semis doesnt mask the shortcomings we have it our team and tactics

Pretty much this. It’s too simplistic to look at where we expected to end up before a ball was kicked and keep that as the baseline. Before the tournament started most people would have expected us to get through the group stage then get knocked out by one of the big boys, but once everything opened up it was more a case of avoiding banana skins up to the Croatia game which was pretty much 50-50. 

Overall I wouldn’t say we overachieved but likewise wouldn’t say we underachieved either. The biggest achievement was what happened off the pitch. 

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I think it's fair to say that taken in isolation 'getting to a World Cup Semi-Final' is an enjoyable achievement, possibly an over-achievement, that English fans can rightfully be proud of. However, it's also fair to temper that if you drill down a bit deeper and acknowledge that no, they didn't play anyone particularly testing apart from Croatia, didn't look particularly convincing for the most part, and clearly have some issues to overcome before they can look to compete against stronger teams and still have success.

It's nuanced. It's neither an overwhelming complete success or a disastrous catastrophe. Much closer to the former than the latter, and completely understandable why people are finding it very satisfying.

As a Scot, I'd probably compare it to Scotland qualifying, squeaking through a group stage, then getting battered by Brazil in the round of 16. On the face of it, that's a fantastic accomplishment, but doesn't mean we'd be anything other than a fortunate, but still extremely limited side with a long, long way to go to even maintain, never mind take it a step further. I'd be proud, and there's no doubt that 'journey' would be immensely enjoyable and satisfying. Being cuffed by Brazil or such wouldn't detract from that, but it would serve as a reminder of the reality.

I'd imagine it's probably similar to what I recall of Euro '92. That was a much tougher competition back then, and it was a good a Scotland team as I can recall watching. We actually played competent, technically decent football, and easily cuffed the CIS 3-0. We finished 5th overall in the European Championships. At the time I was proud, but looking back even more so. That's a fantastic achievement for a small nation in what was indisputably a much tougher tournament to anything we have around now, even though using 'winning it' as a yardstick, we objectively 'failed'.

Edited by Boltman

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17 minutes ago, Cedrik said:

Depends a bit I guess. Four years ago the Dutch national team really went for that third place, mainly due to the experience of staf members who played in the WC 1998 being up against an absolute exploding clown-car of a side in Brazil. At that time the Dutch squad was apparently so disappointed having lost the semi-final that they didn't really took the third place play-off seriously, later they regretted this a lot though.

I hope England and Belgium will also decide to really go for the third place. I think it would be a huge achievement for both countries. 

Fixed that for you.  

The playoff match is often quite a good watch, as the pressure is completely off, and recently it's been about players' last chance to stake a claim for the Golden Boot.  Didn't we get a ridiculous 4-3 when Forlan won it in 2010?  However, it's clearly the game that absolutely no-one wants to play.  I'm not convinced it should be either - sure it's a nice little event before the final, but what is the point really?  I'd imagine both teams involved would be quite happy just to accept they're not going to be 1st or 2nd, and go home to lick their wounds.  Instead they get to go out and play for a prize that means nothing.

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2 hours ago, TM said:

not going to say I know a lot about tactics but can anyone tell me why Kane was playing mostly as a CAM (or off the striker) in the 2nd half/ET of the Colombia and Croatia games?

he's England's No9, now I know things have changed with reference to the 9 shirt being the direct striker but if he's the biggest threat of scoring goals, why is he outside the box trying to create? The game last night in the 2nd half and most of ET was baffling considering the guy's goal record this year and in the tournament.  Surely Rashford could have played as a CAM/CF with Vardy/Kane upfront?

I alluded to this last night during my posts well after the game. 

In theory I think Sterling stretching the defence was supposed to give Kane more time and space in and around the box to place shots wherever he felt like. If you watch the game back you'll see that whenever Sterling is on or chasing the ball, Kane is often 5 yards behind the line of defence and nobody is marking him. If he gets the ball- great! Opportunity should be a good one. But unfortunately Kane was too happy to stick in that pointless space instead of attacking it and moving into further more dangerous positions. His total lack of movement killed England. 

Best example of what I'm talking about is actually when Sterling tried to round the Swedish goalie. Kane is a good 10 yards behind Sterling initially, by the time Sterling loses it to the GK, then gets it back and turns to pass to Kane, he's still in the exact same position more or less - he's more towards the ball by about 3/4 yards. He's in an awful position - didn't offer Sterling a good pass in the slightest, even though if he had been maybe 5 yards to the left he'd have loads of open space to run into and hit a shot after Sterling passes. Instead Sterling takes the shot on himself because Kane had done hee haw for the opportunity himself. 

I can definitely see the theory behind it but without Kane willing to take advantage of the space Sterling's stretching runs create, Sterling would have been as well not bothering. And Kane working harder would probably have led to more chances for the whole team in and around the box, so the whole team suffered going forward. Sterling probably most of all - he's been criticised by many for his performances. But what can he do when his strike partner isn't even trying to get into a good position? 

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I think Colombia took a lot out of Kane tbh. He ran himself into the ground in that game and I'm not convinced he fully recovered.

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14 minutes ago, Pukey said:

I think Colombia took a lot out of Kane tbh. He ran himself into the ground in that game and I'm not convinced he fully recovered.

I think he picked up a knock in that game (was limping badly at the end of it) and don't think he ever recovered. It's not like he was amazing before that but his performances dropped off after that game. 

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14 minutes ago, Pukey said:

I think Colombia took a lot out of Kane tbh. He ran himself into the ground in that game and I'm not convinced he fully recovered.

He's bloody 24yo.

If you get outran by bunch of older players who're playing their third extra time game in a row, then you have to wonder if the conditioning of English players was good enough.

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Hope Kane doesn't become a sacred player that Gareth feels has to play every single minute. If he's not fit or not playing well enough, pick someone else.

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I think Kane looked dead on his feet in both games where he played extra time. Again, that’s where you want the manager to have the balls to take him off. 

It’s a bit worrying if we reach the point where any one player is deemed so important that they have to stay on no matter what and everyone else will have to carry them. 

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3 minutes ago, Coulthard's Jaw said:

Hope Kane doesn't become a sacred player that Gareth feels has to play every single minute. If he's not fit or not playing well enough, pick someone else.

You can include Alli in that as well (maybe even Walker). 

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In the end the typical kick and rush football came up after the first 45 min, specially when Croatia started playing well with lots of creativity in the center midfield in the second half and in ET they were the only team working to win. The english team really lacks creativity on the midfield and maturity at the 3 center backs. ofc in fm2019 i bet all of the english players who were in the WC2018 will have godly stats as usual, overrated.


rooting for Croatia!

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Certainly in ET im sure Southgate was thinking they need him to stay on incase it goes to pens

And taking off the top scorer in the tournament is never going to be an easy decision no matter how tired they look

Edited by Paul Bacon

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8 minutes ago, bestbrother said:

Cant believe we are not in the Final. It was our year :(

If we had lost to Brazil last night i dont think it would have mattered as much. But to lose to a team we're evenly matched with, to go 1 up quickly and dominate most of the 1st half, and to miss some easy chances to finish them off when they were struggling makes it worse

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7 minutes ago, Paul Bacon said:

But to lose to a team we're evenly matched with

No, you're not.

In games with evenly matched teams, when one gets an early lead, they usually finish the opposition off. You didn't have the quality to do so.

Then Croatian team's quality came into play, Southgate couldn't make counter-adjustmets, midfield was lost.

One team has like 80+ trophies between them, the other one has less than 20.

It was a typical lads it's Tottenham game.

You got the lead, were a better team until Croatia recovered from early deficit and then bottled it.
Supposedly world class strikers don't miss chances like that basically get you into the final.
Until he actually wins something and proves he can score in important game, Kane is just another Higuain-like player.

Edited by GunmaN1905

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