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I'm not saying he is as good as Messi, but the way that shaquiri ran all over looking for the ball and therefore attempting to influence the game,

was in stark contrast to Messi, who was stationary for large parts of the game. They are similar players for their respected teams, one showed effort,

determination and skill, the other went missing.....discuss!

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Messi did the same off the ball as he's done all his career. Their team is a shambles and can't get him on the ball at all. If he drops back to halfway to get the ball then he still needs help further up to influence anything and the help isn't there

 

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It is a grave shame and it's even more shameful that some people will allow this to shape their perception of him, I do think he could be doing better but i've never seen such a wildly poor tactical start from a team.

First game square pegs in round holes, second game...well it was 3-1-6 formation with work rate 1. I don't look forward to this thread

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Agreed and it certainly doesn't shape my perception of him, he remains a wonderful player, looks like he could do with some help from Steve Peters though!

His forehead rubbing in the national anthem spoke volumes...?

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15 minutes ago, chopra_hill said:

Messi did the same off the ball as he's done all his career. Their team is a shambles and can't get him on the ball at all. If he drops back to halfway to get the ball then he still needs help further up to influence anything and the help isn't there

 

But I was only observing Shaquiri's effervescent display seemed to encourage those around him....?

Edited by abiturative

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I've never seen a player (including messi) less interested in playing football than messi at this tournament so far

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Just now, georginho_juventusygr said:

Needs to retire from the national team.

He never made a career in Argentina anyway. If he retires, Argentinians won't miss him.

he is their all time top goalscorer

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If you think Argentina's issues are because of Messi you're an idiot.

Although on the other hand, if you think Messi is doing everything he can you're an idiot.

He is trying, he is dropping deep to try and get the ball and influence the game, but he sure as hell isn't playing well. 

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Anyone who thinks Messi walking around is the issue clearly doesn't watch him.

Even at his absolute best, Messi walks around off the ball. He's not playing well so far but it's not because he's walking.

He needs to play better but more importantly Argentina need to learn to get the ball to him. Their defence and midfield can't pass at all so he has to drop far too deep.

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13 minutes ago, EnterUsernameHere said:

Anyone who thinks Messi walking around is the issue clearly doesn't watch him.

Even at his absolute best, Messi walks around off the ball. He's not playing well so far but it's not because he's walking.

He needs to play better but more importantly Argentina need to learn to get the ball to him. Their defence and midfield can't pass at all so he has to drop far too deep.

But surely he realises this aint Barca and the ball isn't necessarily going to get to him, so he needs to be more proactive in effecting the play...?

I bet he covers more yards in their final game...

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1 hour ago, abiturative said:

His forehead rubbing in the national anthem spoke volumes...?

I think it did.  It looked as if he had a lot of weight on his shoulders and probably knew what was going to happen in that game.

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10 minutes ago, abiturative said:

But surely he realises this aint Barca and the ball isn't necessarily going to get to him, so he needs to be more proactive in effecting the play...?

I bet he covers more yards in their final game...

Yes but how? If the ball doesn't make it to the midfield as against Croatia, does he drop even deeper? He dropped deep to get the ball, passed into the feet of someone more advanced and then...the move dies. He needs 1 person to step up really, that's all. Banega or Lo Celso I guess. Enzo Perez can't, Biglia can't, Meza can't. 

If he drops even deeper what do you expect, him to dribble past 5 players every time? It's too much.

Boiling it down to yards covered is too simplistic. He was often in space against Croatia - they couldn't find him because they were terrible playing out from the back. Then when they did there was little support.

He needs to do more but the bigger problem is the support.

Edited by EnterUsernameHere

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1 minute ago, EnterUsernameHere said:

Yes but how? If the ball doesn't make it to the midfield as against Croatia, does he drop even deeper? He dropped deep to get the ball, passed into the feet of someone more advanced and then...the move dies. He needs 1 person to step up really, that's all. Banega or Lo Celso I guess. Enzo Perez can't, Biglia can't, Meza can't. 

If he drops even deeper what do you expect, him to dribble past 5 players every time? It's too much.

I know and I think you're right, they're pretty doomed, but I was just amazed in the second half of last night's game, Shaquiri seemed to pop up everywhere

and drag his team forward. Not normally his greatest fan but credit where...

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1 minute ago, abiturative said:

I know and I think you're right, they're pretty doomed, but I was just amazed in the second half of last night's game, Shaquiri seemed to pop up everywhere

and drag his team forward. Not normally his greatest fan but credit where...

Shaqiri was very good I agree. And Argentina are much better than Switzerland on paper, but their framework is so flawed right row.

Messi playing a deeper role would be an option to be fair, but only if Dybala etc start and step up.

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I'm not defending Messi, I think he isn't a very happy person right now, but the team isn't really set up to take the best out of their best player.

I mean, he's one of the best players ever, he's 31 already and all time top scorer, and in all this time of watching him play the manager hasn't come out with a solution? How much time he needs?

Just compare it with Fernando Santos, the rate that Ronaldo is scoring goals for Portugal nowadays as a veteran 33 years old is double or triple as before. At some point with Queiróz as manager between 08-10, he went a full 2 years without scoring for the NT, can you imagine that now? Fernando Santos took him out of the wing, play to his advantages and bet everything on him. He is the one that enables them to compete with stronger teams after all.

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Shock as player playing in a good team wins things then wins less when he plays in an average team.

I'm sorry, but that guy is an absolute ****ing moron.

Portgual in major tournaments since 2006:

WC2006 Semis

Euro 2008 Quarters

World Cup 2010 Round of 16

Euro 2012 Semis

World Cup 2014 group stage

Euro 2016 winners.

Argentina have reached 4 finals since 2006. 

If you think Ronaldo is better then fine, but arguing Messi is a "fraud" because of his international record is, and always will be, complete and utter ********.

Edited by Pukey

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11 minutes ago, Pukey said:

Shock as player playing in a good team wins things then wins less when he plays in an average team.

I'm sorry, but that guy is an absolute ****ing moron.

To be fair Argentina aren't renowned as ****, never have been and have had very good players playing for them during Messi's career, they're undoubtedly the second biggest international team in South America after Brazil so not even winning a Copa America has to be seen as a massive failure surely?

*Response from Messi fans*

:(:(:( It's not fair Messi has to play with rubbish players, how can he win with them?

My response:

Bore the **** off!

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Well done for a) putting words in my mouth and b) missing the main crux of my post. I never said "how can he win with them?" but it's obvious you're going to win more things in one of the greatest teams ever than at a team that's not as good. And also, they've been penalty shoot outs away from winning two Copa Americas. If they'd have won those shootouts, would that mean his legacy remains in tact, whereas now he's a fraud?

But yeah, nice mature response when I'm making perfectly valid arguments against absolute ******** :thup: 

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6 minutes ago, Pukey said:

 And also, they've been penalty shoot outs away from winning two Copa Americas. If they'd have won those shootouts, would that mean his legacy remains in tact, whereas now he's a fraud?

Winning Copa América isn't that big of a deal to Argentina. They already won it 14 times. It's basically a tournament version of their WC qualifiers league. Don't know any player that has a legacy because of Copa America's performances.

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5 minutes ago, FaceCrusher said:

Winning Copa América isn't that big of a deal to Argentina. They already won it 14 times. It's basically a tournament version of their WC qualifiers league. Don't know any player that has a legacy because of Copa America's performances.

More a question aimed at the "lol what has Messi done for Argentina!" types tbf, I personally don't think it changes things one way or the other.

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Discussions like these make me doubt the general public's and even some pundits' competence.

 

Messi has been playing well below his standards for Argentina, but whose fault is it? Have you actually noticed how nobody in the team knows how to do with the ball? Or without the ball? I've seen better teamwork during kickabouts involving amateurs with little football skills or background...
And it's been Argentina's problem for years.

We'd argue Messi's presence being so overwhelming it prevents the rest of the team from performing, but I think it's BS... The matter of fact is that THIS Argentina side is weak and slow. The few good players are either aging or in terrible shape. Or lazy.
 

Last, but not least, the expectations and the comparison with Maradona have been crippling and unfair. Maradona didn't really win the 86WC by himself... He was a huge added value to a solid team. Not spectacular, not very fancy, but damn solid. And then Maradona was the one able to win a game in one second, so the rest of the team knew they'd rely on him, but it also worked the other way around.
Messi can't be expected to win every game by himself, much less if he has 9 zombies ambling around him.

Compare 1986 to 1990 and, even though Maradona was without doubt older, slower and less focused, the quality of the team was also lower and indeed both struggled to reach the most undeserved final ever.

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The music is perfect. Makes it even better :D

Argentina have a decent XI that can compete, but Sampaoli is leaving about six of the players that would make that decent XI on the bench.

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Harry Kane - 5 Goals in 2 matches

Lionel Messi - 5 Goals in 4 WCs

Edited by Tiger666

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