The VAR Thread

[enigmatic]

 

 

[georginho_juventusygr]

Did the ball touch the player, though?

[Mr Wallin]

4 hours ago, georginho_juventusygr said:

Did the ball touch the player, though?

What? On the Korean goal? Why would you doubt that?

[Confused Clarity]

It was kicked by a German player through a German players legs, brushing his calf. It was clearly played by a German player, there's absolutely no doubt. 

[georginho_juventusygr]

Ah, must have missed the part where it was kicked by a German.

[Icelander83]

Horrible how the poor Russian fans couldn't start celebrating the equaliser due to VAR  Absolutely RUINED football

[git2thachoppa]

The death of this topic is a real vindication.

Forgot all about VAR today.

[ArsenalFan7]

Think its been a resounding success, fully expected the majority people to stubbornly stick to their grudges against VAR but I’ve seen a lot of heads turn. They have implemented it fantastically at this WC, it was vital to get it right here.

Hopefully it makes the FA think about their backwards decision to pass on VAR in the biggest league in the world, whilst the rest of Europe begins/continues to reap the benefits.

[GunmaN1905]

UEFA also annouced VAR won't be used this season. <.<

Can't wait for game-deciding refereeing mistakes.

[git2thachoppa]

16 hours ago, ArsenalFan7 said:

Hopefully it makes the FA think about their backwards decision to pass on VAR in the biggest league in the world, whilst the rest of Europe begins/continues to reap the benefits.

Wasn't that the Premier League clubs' decision? They had a vote and over two-thirds is a deciding vote, so at least 14 of the 20 clubs voted not to have it yet.

But as for the FA, they're the ones that decided the cups WILL have the extra sub in extra time... but only in the later rounds which won't have replays because LOL.

[ArsenalFan7]

1 hour ago, git2thachoppa said:

Wasn't that the Premier League clubs' decision? They had a vote and over two-thirds is a deciding vote, so at least 14 of the 20 clubs voted not to have it yet.

But as for the FA, they're the ones that decided the cups WILL have the extra sub in extra time... but only in the later rounds which won't have replays because LOL.

Wasn’t aware, baffling that teams would leave themselves prone to costly decisions with so much money on the line with a landslide vote.  

[FaceCrusher]

1 hour ago, git2thachoppa said:

Wasn't that the Premier League clubs' decision? They had a vote and over two-thirds is a deciding vote, so at least 14 of the 20 clubs voted not to have it yet

Some supporters of the smaller clubs in Portugal don't like VAR, because they used to get away with 2/3 uncalled penalties per game or the odd wrongly disallowed goal for offside when they parked the buses against the big teams.

So yeah, VAR tends to be most beneficial to teams that actually attack and some people don't like that, saying it was designed to help the rich.

[Icelander83]

2 hours ago, FaceCrusher said:

Some supporters of the smaller clubs in Portugal don't like VAR, because they used to get away with 2/3 uncalled penalties per game or the odd wrongly disallowed goal for offside when they parked the buses against the big teams.

So yeah, VAR tends to be most beneficial to teams that actually attack and some people don't like that, saying it was designed to help the rich.

On the other hand, you can't have goals ruled out by VAR without scoring goals :fingertotempleguy:

[FaceCrusher]

6 minutes ago, Icelander83 said:

On the other hand, you can't have goals ruled out by VAR without scoring goals :fingertotempleguy:

Maybe I didn't express myself right, I meant the big teams had wrongly disallowed goals for offside when playing against the smaller clubs who park the bus quite often.

The difference in attacking situations is so big that VAR ultimately benefits the teams that attack more, and the smaller teams don't like it because they can no longer get away with refereeing mistakes that helped them level the playing field a bit.

[JD nawrat]

7 hours ago, FaceCrusher said:

Maybe I didn't express myself right, I meant the big teams had wrongly disallowed goals for offside when playing against the smaller clubs who park the bus quite often.

The difference in attacking situations is so big that VAR ultimately benefits the teams that attack more, and the smaller teams don't like it because they can no longer get away with refereeing mistakes that helped them level the playing field a bit.

But how many times do we hear the old "referee favoured the big teams" when it comes to decisions? How often do we hear that the referee "bottled a decision" because it was a big team/game/name?

Fact is VAR helps everyone when implemented properly and used correctly. 

[Nordan]

VAR for you, VAR for you, VAR for EVERYONE!

They need to stop using it on freekicks/corners imo, because there is a penalty or freekick every time and they've ignored many and given a few penalties.

VAR is great but it also needs to be just.

[GunmaN1905]

Not VAR, but refereeing.

Quote

Mateu Lahoz and Skomina have been informed by committee they can go home.
Çakır, Rocchi, Kuipers and Mažić are the UEFA referees remaining in Russia.

 

Quote

Rocchi

But why?

[Nordan]

5 minutes ago, GunmaN1905 said:

Not VAR, but refereeing.

 

But why?

Cakir always there isn't he. Lahoz is that the Brazilian?

I don't really know Rocchi's refereeing abilities.

[FaceCrusher]

Lahoz is Spanish, don't rate him highly personally.

[RubenJ]

4 hours ago, Nordan said:

VAR for you, VAR for you, VAR for EVERYONE!

They need to stop using it on freekicks/corners imo, because there is a penalty or freekick every time and they've ignored many and given a few penalties.

VAR is great but it also needs to be just.

That's because defenders are used to getting away with it. It's about time wrestling during set pieces disappears. 

[Nordan]

55 minutes ago, RubenJ said:

That's because defenders are used to getting away with it. It's about time wrestling during set pieces disappears. 

I'm not disagreeing, but they have to either clamp down on as much as they can or not at all imo. The lectures before every set piece obviously doesn't work and there were many situations where VAR didn't do anything. Booking for diving seems to have gone by the wayside too, strange.

[GunmaN1905]

I wouldn't be surprised if they added some changes to VAR. 

For example dive leading to a set-piece which results in a goal should be reviewable.

[ArsenalFan7]

Also, must add ability to reverse corner and goal kick calls.

[Mr Wallin]

On 09/07/2018 at 18:11, Nordan said:

I'm not disagreeing, but they have to either clamp down on as much as they can or not at all imo. The lectures before every set piece obviously doesn't work and there were many situations where VAR didn't do anything. Booking for diving seems to have gone by the wayside too, strange.

Along with bookings for delaying a restart or dissent or time wasting.   

[Mr Wallin]

On 15/07/2018 at 19:08, GunmaN1905 said:

I wouldn't be surprised if they added some changes to VAR. 

For example dive leading to a set-piece which results in a goal should be reviewable.

That is a difficult one as it can't/won't be done in that way as you would have to wait until after the FK is taken to know if you can review it or not. And that would mean you'd have to breach one of the most sacred laws/principles of refereeing, that you can never change a decision after play has been restarted again. And that is something I don't expect will ever happen as that would open up for a whole truck load of problems.

Which means you'd have to widen the scope a bit and either allow reviews of diving on all FK's close enough to goal to have a shot. But that might not solve all potential situations like the one in the WC final so then you'd have to allow reviews of diving at all FK's. 

But if you limit it to just reviewing diving to earn a FK you have the same arbitrarily drawn line as now where some unfairness is reviewed and some isn't so you'd soon have calls (and discussions like this one) to review everything for those FK's (was it a foul? was there offside? and so on). And then you are well and truly far into the slippery slope of being able to review everything. And that will mean increasing the time spent doing reviews by quite a lot which I don't think will go over well with neither teams, fans of broadcasters.

In short, I definitely see where you are coming from but I think that unfortunately it will be really hard to solve your issue without introducing a lot more new issues into the system.

[enigmatic]

Much easier just to book divers, including after play has restarted if need be. Uinlike penalties or red cards, most free kicks aren't that much of an advantage if defended properly.

[outlander]

2 minutes ago, enigmatic said:

Much easier just to book divers, including after play has restarted if need be. Uinlike penalties or red cards, most free kicks aren't that much of an advantage if defended properly.

This, million times. That could and should have been done even before VAR. Why the dives were not punished after the match, I can never understand. The same with VAR. Not, like it will really negatively affect their work. Let them review all possible dives and issue yellow cards in any of the next stops of play after VAR made a decision. Is there anything wrong with such workflow?

[Mr Wallin]

18 minutes ago, outlander said:

This, million times. That could and should have been done even before VAR. Why the dives were not punished after the match, I can never understand. The same with VAR. Not, like it will really negatively affect their work. Let them review all possible dives and issue yellow cards in any of the next stops of play after VAR made a decision. Is there anything wrong with such workflow?

As I said above, there are a lot of issues with changing/adding decisions after play has been restarted.

You could review and hand out fines/suspensions post-game though.       

[m_fenton]

1 minute ago, Mr Wallin said:

As I said above, there are a lot of issues with changing/adding decisions after play has been restarted.

You could review and hand out fines/suspensions post-game though.       

What would be your thoughts about handing out yellow cards for first half dives during half time? Not a complete solution, but to me that would at least go some way towards punishing players during the game, without disrupting the flow.

[westy8chimp]

5 minutes ago, m_fenton said:

What would be your thoughts about handing out yellow cards for first half dives during half time? Not a complete solution, but to me that would at least go some way towards punishing players during the game, without disrupting the flow.

The ref surely needs a break and to rehydrate and go to the toilet as much as the players do... would you leave it to a panel to make the decision on his behalf? If so I agree and think it'd be a good start

[Mr Wallin]

1 minute ago, m_fenton said:

What would be your thoughts about handing out yellow cards for first half dives during half time? Not a complete solution, but to me that would at least go some way towards punishing players during the game, without disrupting the flow.

You'd still run into the same issues if you caution 5 minutes later or 10 minutes later or during half-time. 

 

IMO if you'd really want to combat diving (which there is not real will to do, not from fans, not from players, not from leagues nor from FIFA) then I'd allow referee to caution a player that dives but still give him the FK if he was fouled to and then encourage referees to be strict about diving. As long as the ones that issues instruction/guidelines to referees aren't bothered by diving neither will referees be.

[m_fenton]

10 minutes ago, westy8chimp said:

The ref surely needs a break and to rehydrate and go to the toilet as much as the players do... would you leave it to a panel to make the decision on his behalf? If so I agree and think it'd be a good start

Absolutely they need a break - maybe extend half time by a couple of minutes? I think the principle of having the on-field referee make the decisions is important, unless it's a purely factual check like offside or the goal line.

[westy8chimp]

2 minutes ago, m_fenton said:

maybe extend half time by a couple of minutes? I think the principle of having the on-field referee make the decisions is important

Yeh, defo an improvement.

[enigmatic]

Don't think the issues with retrospective VAR-recommended cards during play/half-time would be that bad. The only case where there's a major issue is if the player's picked up a yellow for something else in between, and in that case I think you just have to waive it (but maybe add to their accumulated cards after the match)

VAR would have reduced diving by a lot more at this world cup if some idiot hadn't decided to quietly suggest to refs that they shouldn't be giving out cards for it

[Mr Wallin]

4 hours ago, enigmatic said:

Don't think the issues with retrospective VAR-recommended cards during play/half-time would be that bad. The only case where there's a major issue is if the player's picked up a yellow for something else in between, and in that case I think you just have to waive it (but maybe add to their accumulated cards after the match)

VAR would have reduced diving by a lot more at this world cup if some idiot hadn't decided to quietly suggest to refs that they shouldn't be giving out cards for it

Diving isn't on the list of things that can be reviewed directly. So for most dives the VAR couldn't have gotten involved, regardless of cards being issued. 

But I agree that the referee instructions for this WC really didn't help making matches better (but then again neither did it in 2014 but FIFA still hailed that as great due to the low card count ).

[git2thachoppa]

One direction that should be given is to show refs replays in real-time as much as slow motion too, for handball anyway.

[enigmatic]

13 hours ago, Mr Wallin said:

Diving isn't on the list of things that can be reviewed directly. So for most dives the VAR couldn't have gotten involved, regardless of cards being issued. 

But I agree that the referee instructions for this WC really didn't help making matches better (but then again neither did it in 2014 but FIFA still hailed that as great due to the low card count ).

I meant situations like the Neymar dive where the ref actually reversed the decison because after watching from multiple angles he concluded it was a dive and still didn't book him. But in general VAR should make it easier to book players going down in the box when a ref is only fairly sure there isn't any real contact, because he can always be called back if the TV officials think it was a possible penalty

I think it's pretty clear the low card count was what they were going for

[outlander]

@Mr Wallin is right that the current stance is that they don't really want to fight diving. Not at all. It was obvious during this WC that the refs got instructions not to issue yellow cards for dives. There were numerous cases when the ref spotted the dive, waved play on and didn't give a YC. 

 

If those at the head have this stance, it's useless to dream about them trying to get rid of this from the game.

[outlander]

And let's be honest. deceiving the ref is like a culture in football. Forget about dives.

The laws state that the cautionable offense is:

  attempts to deceive the referee e.g. by feigning injury or pretending to have been fouled (simulation)

Diving is just an example.

We check the glossary of the laws of the game:

Deceive - Act to mislead/trick the referee into giving an incorrect decision/disciplinary sanction which benefits the deceiver and/or their team

So, during every match there could be literally dozens of yellow cards issued for players intentionally trying to deceive the referee into giving an incorrect throw in or corner decision. And now check your reaction to this. I am sure most just smile and think that's ridiculous to give yellow cards for this.

That is exactly what I called a culture of deceiving the refs. That is considered a normal and integral part of the game. Not only by those "South Americans" but English players try to cheat the referee every game and multiple times. 

May be, everyone should just stop complaining about the diving then. 

 

[m_fenton]

33 minutes ago, outlander said:

 May be, everyone should just stop complaining about the diving then. 

 

No, I'd also like it if players didn't start an argument and appeal for absolutely every little throw in decision etc. However, of the two offences, diving causes the bigger problems.

[outlander]

Just now, m_fenton said:

No, I'd also like it if players didn't start an argument and appeal for absolutely every little throw in decision etc. However, of the two offences, diving causes the bigger problems.

Yes, but those things are really connected to each other. You either think that cheating should not be accepted or just accept it. 

Not only those attempts to deceive for corner kicks. How many an almost dead player jumps up to argue with someone who tries to pick them up(it should not acceptable as well). Or when they realize the ref is not going to give a foul. They are never punished with a yellow card. So, there are huge possible advantages to be gained by feigning injury but no real risk to get punished for this.

All of this form this cheating culture within football. It's a hypocrisy to say that only diving is bad and accept everything else. Especially, as the governing bodies make it clear they don't see much issues with diving.

 

 

[m_fenton]

2 minutes ago, outlander said:

Yes, but those things are really connected to each other. You either think that cheating should not be accepted or just accept it. 

Not only those attempts to deceive for corner kicks. How many an almost dead player jumps up to argue with someone who tries to pick them up(it should not acceptable as well). Or when they realize the ref is not going to give a foul. They are never punished with a yellow card. So, there are huge possible advantages to be gained by feigning injury but no real risk to get punished for this.

 All of this form this cheating culture within football. It's a hypocrisy to say that only diving is bad and accept everything else. Especially, as the governing bodies make it clear they don't see much issues with diving. 

Literally nobody is saying that.

Diving is still the biggest problem in my opinion, because it is the one with the greatest "reward" for the offender. A good dive might, as a topical example, lead to your team scoring the first goal of a World Cup Final. Arguing about a throw in, or someone who feigns injury, very rarely have such an impact.

If everyone stopped diving the game would improve, and more focus would be given to other offences.

[m_fenton]

On a similar theme - anyone who walks away holding the ball when they have given away a free kick should be carded. It's another case where referees simply have no intention of applying the rules.

[outlander]

22 minutes ago, m_fenton said:

Literally nobody is saying that.

Diving is still the biggest problem in my opinion, because it is the one with the greatest "reward" for the offender. A good dive might, as a topical example, lead to your team scoring the first goal of a World Cup Final. Arguing about a throw in, or someone who feigns injury, very rarely have such an impact.

If everyone stopped diving the game would improve, and more focus would be given to other offences.

Noone ever raised an issue with players claiming corner kicks or throw-ins and that they should be punished for this. 

A corner is quite an opportunity to score. And many goals were scored from incorrectly awarded corners and many were not scored because the corner wasn't given. And in such cases fans and pundits blame the refs for the wrong but never ever have I heard them saying: This player claimed a corner and it was given. But it's obvious he was the last to touch the ball and he clearly knew it. So, the goal kick should have been given and a yellow card issued for the cheater. 

Or dives in the middle of the pitch. They are not dangerous. But the players are rightly branded as cheaters for the dives. Yet, nothing is said about their wrong claims for a throw-in.

Even the managers never complain about it. So, yes, such cheating is universally accepted. 

And it's much harder to draw than to fight all of this together. Ok, claiming a corner is fine. A dive in the penalty box is not - it's cheating. What about diving in the middle of the field? That's cheating, as well, right? Then, what about feigning injuries? That's not cheating by any referee of any federation. That is quite an awful line, isn't it?

Or look at what happens and happened before with players asking for the yellow cards for the opposition. That is such a joke. There is absolutely no consistency here. Nowadays, the ref never punish it. Before they did. But it was also ridiculous when they punished waiving imaginary card but did nothing when the players were saying it in words: "you should give a yellow here". 

 

I hate cheating and diving. But I think you should choose one way here. Either accept it or fight. And it's clear that the governing bodies decided to accept it.

[outlander]

30 minutes ago, m_fenton said:

On a similar theme - anyone who walks away holding the ball when they have given away a free kick should be carded. It's another case where referees simply have no intention of applying the rules.

Yeah, that is another perfect example. Nowadays, it's almost never is punished. And the players notice is and do it more and more. Absolutely pathetic from those in powers to decide to ignore it. It's not like it's even hard to judge(like with feigning injuries where only part of those feigns are clear and obvious). In 99% of such cases the player is clearly just wasting time and should be punished immediately. That never happens. A few years ago it was actually much better. 

Same, with shots after the whistle for offside.

[m_fenton]

19 minutes ago, outlander said:

Noone ever raised an issue with players claiming corner kicks or throw-ins and that they should be punished for this. 

 A corner is quite an opportunity to score. And many goals were scored from incorrectly awarded corners and many were not scored because the corner wasn't given. And in such cases fans and pundits blame the refs for the wrong but never ever have I heard them saying: This player claimed a corner and it was given. But it's obvious he was the last to touch the ball and he clearly knew it. So, the goal kick should have been given and a yellow card issued for the cheater. 

 Or dives in the middle of the pitch. They are not dangerous. But the players are rightly branded as cheaters for the dives. Yet, nothing is said about their wrong claims for a throw-in.

Even the managers never complain about it. So, yes, such cheating is universally accepted. 

 And it's much harder to draw than to fight all of this together. Ok, claiming a corner is fine. A dive in the penalty box is not - it's cheating. What about diving in the middle of the field? That's cheating, as well, right? Then, what about feigning injuries? That's not cheating by any referee of any federation. That is quite an awful line, isn't it?

 Or look at what happens and happened before with players asking for the yellow cards for the opposition. That is such a joke. There is absolutely no consistency here. Nowadays, the ref never punish it. Before they did. But it was also ridiculous when they punished waiving imaginary card but did nothing when the players were saying it in words: "you should give a yellow here". 

  

 I hate cheating and diving. But I think you should choose one way here. Either accept it or fight. And it's clear that the governing bodies decided to accept it.

Some fair points - a corner leads to a goal about as often as a free kick. However, I don't agree that you have to make an equal fuss about all forms of cheating. Mulling it over, these are the reasons I think diving is generally worse than some other forms:

• It is accusing another player of wrongdoing. Claiming a throw/corner is not lying about another professional's conduct, so in that aspect it is not so bad.

• It works more often. Every time the ball goes out (unless 100% clear) you get both teams appealing for it. That appeal therefore shouldn't actually sway the referee either way, and usually it doesn't. However, if players were honest, it would help the small % of times when they get it wrong. Diving is a far more successful form of cheating on the whole, and therefore more important.

• It breaks up the flow of the game. I think that this might actually be a major reason many fans feel more strongly about diving than other types of cheating. If you dive, you create a free kick out of nothing. This can lead to incredibly stop/start passages of play that are frustrating to watch as a neutral or trailing side. Claiming a throw/corner does not delay the game being restarted, just changes how it is.

If a player dives, it has much more of an effect overall on the play, than claiming a throw/corner. It doesn't mean others are OK, just less important.

[Mr Wallin]

On 19/07/2018 at 00:16, git2thachoppa said:

One direction that should be given is to show refs replays in real-time as much as slow motion too, for handball anyway.

It actually pretty much is. It is not a hard/strict rule but the recommendation is that you determine facts (on/over the line, hand makes contact or not and so on) by looking at it in slow-mo or freeze frame and then decide on the judgement parts by looking at it at full speed.

For the PK in the WC final he did both, first a few freeze/slow screens and then a forward/backward shot at fairly high speed at the end. Seemed like a good way to do it to me tbh.

 

 

On 19/07/2018 at 12:21, enigmatic said:

I think it's pretty clear the low card count was what they were going for

I'd say so yes.   

[Mr Wallin]

On 19/07/2018 at 14:40, outlander said:

If those at the head have this stance, it's useless to dream about them trying to get rid of this from the game.

As much as I'd like to join the FIFA bashing this isn't really on their head (not mainly at least). FIFA are epic crowd pleaser's. If fans (and pundits) ever came to agree on diving = bad and get some coherent idea about what is a dive then FIFA and the rest of the confeds would have new instructions for their referees out before the next set of matches.  But for the majority of dives/simulation (and past the "my player/club" bias) you'll never find anything close to a majority to agree that a situation is a dive bad enough to deserve a caution.

[m_fenton]

On 20/07/2018 at 16:11, Mr Wallin said:

As much as I'd like to join the FIFA bashing this isn't really on their head (not mainly at least). FIFA are epic crowd pleaser's. If fans (and pundits) ever came to agree on diving = bad and get some coherent idea about what is a dive then FIFA and the rest of the confeds would have new instructions for their referees out before the next set of matches.  But for the majority of dives/simulation (and past the "my player/club" bias) you'll never find anything close to a majority to agree that a situation is a dive bad enough to deserve a caution.

Only one person in the world thinks Neymar's theatrics at the World Cup weren't too much, and his name is Neymar da Silva Santos Júnior