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I dream with a Match Engine like this some day in Football Manager


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10 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

This isn't a match engine...

Much as I agree, I would like to see more motion captured feinting and dribbling techniques in FM, and think having to adapt the underlying engine to for players to choose them to beat opponents in certain situations would probably improve it (i.e. the match engine would end up using technical/mental attributes more and physical attributes less in determining if and how Player X manouevred the ball past Player Y in order to shoot from position Z)

 

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Just now, enigmatic said:

Much as I agree, I would like to see more motion captured feinting and dribbling techniques in FM, and think having to adapt the underlying engine to for players to choose them to beat opponents in certain situations would probably improve it (i.e. the match engine would end up using technical/mental attributes more and physical attributes less in determining if and how Player X manouevred the ball past Player Y in order to shoot from position Z)

 

Oh absolutely. There's definitely more than can be added, and must be added. 

But this isn't an example of how it should be done, because first and foremost it doesn't have to attempt to realistically model a game. It's like looking at Fifa and saying FM should look like that. 

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Another example of someone mistaking the match engine with the front end graphics...

 

Rush football is merely a predefined preset match produced in a 3d animation.. there is no user input, and no engine at work behind the scenes.. it's like watching a movie and questioning why computer games don't compare...

 

 

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As much as I'd love something like this, there are a few issues

 

a) It's not a match engine

 

b) Some people mentioned FIFA and PES. I'd argue that this would be an absolute chore to play with in FIFA or PES, the camera angle is hardly great for playing games like that.

 

c) For FM itself, I doubt the calculations behind FM can produce anything even close to this for now, and I doubt SI can justify the expense either.

 

d) As much as I might think I want more, I can't imagine how annoying it would be to switch from my Laptop to my PC to play FM.

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3 hours ago, Tony Wright 747 said:

Fully agree, and actually it is not even the best example of a non match engine, there are better out there.

Agreed, it's as old as the hills now..

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Improved graphics will always be good, but as noted this is front end, not match engine. The match engine is the bit that calculates the results based on input, the graphics engine are what shows it to you.

For me, it is also important to consider that the game should be able to deliver for people with all ranges of PCs. From high end machines to my crappy laptop I use to play when I am traveling (which can barely handle 2D). It should also not come at the expense of other parts of the game. I would rather take the current graphics engine for 5 years and have them work hard on the general balance and gameplay than to spend lots of time and effort on what is vanity, essentially.

Still, always look to improve!

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It's always worth stating that if you actually look in any great detail at the FIFA Match Engine - and when I say that, I actually mean the match engine, not the visual representation - then it's laughably bad if you stack it up against what SI have done.  It's not really a fair comparison, granted, as they're trying to do different things, but if you play one of the game-modes where you only control one player, you can see just how terrible the AI is.  A lot of blushes are spared because in 90% of cases, you're controlling the whole team, which plays more to the strengths of what they've coded.  

If you completely separate the graphics side from the actual match engine in FM, and look at it objectively, people would probably be a lot kinder towards it.  It's translating that into the visuals that is the constant issue.  Improve that, and things look - no pun intended - a lot better.

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This seems to be get posted every few months and as people have said it isn't a match engine, rather cut screen highlights with no AI underneath. 

Saying that, we can and will continue to improve our animations with each version and hope to one day have a match engine that aesthetically is closer to real life football. 

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In my current save ive tried to give my team the best possible likelihood of performing skill moves on the pitch. Players with high flair, technique, agility, dribbling and PPM to dribble more. TI to be more expressive and run at defence. 

You see plenty of dribbles and more risky passes but not more rabona/oheads etc. In fact the only rabona ive seen from my players in FM18 was by Mertesacker when it first came out. I dont know what, if any, skills might be exclusive to high flair players and/or expressive teams... But i would like to see;

More skill animations in future FM and have them applied with logic rather than random. 

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17 hours ago, matisptfan said:

Can you or Tony provide examples of more up to date 'non match engines'? I've honestly didn't come across one

I'd be interested to see this too. I get the point that this isn't really comparable to FM because it's not a match engine, but it's definitely interesting to see as a concept of what future FM might look like - the SSN layout is great.

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17 hours ago, matisptfan said:

Can you or Tony provide examples of more up to date 'non match engines'? I've honestly didn't come across one

Off the top of my head I can't list you any, I was only agreeing it was old hat... 

 

It came out 4 years ago or so now.. the only reason you don't see any readily available improvements around is because the demand isn't there.. it's used by a betting company to create matches based on simplistic inputs...

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Well I'll be honest and say that I'd rather see dev effort in getting the existing match engine correct than upgrading aesthetics in the short term

The FM18 ME has some key defects around defender positioning, covering / chasing down player with ball etc which I hope get a higher priority for resolution

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19 hours ago, MrPompey said:

Well I'll be honest and say that I'd rather see dev effort in getting the existing match engine correct than upgrading aesthetics in the short term

The FM18 ME has some key defects around defender positioning, covering / chasing down player with ball etc which I hope get a higher priority for resolution

The people within the match team who work on AI aren't the same people who work on the animations. So if there's a large animation improvement, it won't be at the expense of AI improvements. 

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1 hour ago, Neil Brock said:

The people within the match team who work on AI aren't the same people who work on the animations. So if there's a large animation improvement, it won't be at the expense of AI improvements. 

Thats fine Neil, but I hope they work together because isn't the animations the part of the AI that the player sees.

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2 minutes ago, Tony Wright 747 said:

Thats fine Neil, but I hope they work together because isn't the animations the part of the AI that the player sees.

Animations aren't part of anything AI related.. animations are just overlayed on top after the fact.. 

 

AI calculations determine a player passes the ball 10 foot to a certain collegue..  the relevant animation is set up to play in sequence.

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27 minutes ago, Welshace said:

Animations aren't part of anything AI related.. animations are just overlayed on top after the fact.. 

 

AI calculations determine a player passes the ball 10 foot to a certain collegue..  the relevant animation is set up to play in sequence.

Yeah what Welshace said. But yeah, they do work together and have an understanding of what each other are up to. :thup: 

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I'm not sure to what degree animations and ME relate but the ME clearly has some improvement opportunities as they are driving some of the animations we see on the pitch -   for example it could be forgivable to see the slight awkwardness of an attacking player being closed by a single defensive player but seeing 3 defenders do this benny hill style leaving other attackers uncovered, even if the animations look perfect, in my view is not

Its all down to people's subjective views and of course  I am thankful for the forums to be able to express my views and that SI are reading and responding. Its one of the things that makes FM and SI great :)

 

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14 minutes ago, MrPompey said:

I'm not sure to what degree animations and ME relate but the ME clearly has some improvement opportunities as they are driving some of the animations we see on the pitch -   for example it could be forgivable to see the slight awkwardness of an attacking player being closed by a single defensive player but seeing 3 defenders do this benny hill style leaving other attackers uncovered, even if the animations look perfect, in my view is not

Its all down to people's subjective views and of course  I am thankful for the forums to be able to express my views and that SI are reading and responding. Its one of the things that makes FM and SI great :)

 

Hey Pompey, don't think anyone is suggesting that the issues seen with the match day experience are only or even primarily down to the animations.. for sure SI have made it clear for many years that the ME itself is a big priority for improvement and even acknowledging that there certainly issues...

 

The great thing about SI is that it is compatmentalised and it is a continuous process of improving what they have.. 

The downside to that is that people will always expect better than what they get, I remember thinking n64 graphics were the best graphics could get..  it's a human fault really...

Although I will concede I would have expected the animations themselves would have had a greater leap than what has appeared so far in the last few editions, something to hope for I think.

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Before trying to get FM to be as realistic as possible, it has to iron out all the niggles etc in game. Top players kicking the ball against the back of another's legs when attempting a pass, players unable to stop quickly enough when stopping a ball going over the line, players standing like statues while their opponent just takes the ball off them, lower league keepers playing lime De Gea.

Edited by jc1
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@Welshace - Not thats fine. I just think there are some key elements that need ME updating. I'm sure they are complicated else they will be been addressed during one of the FM18 updates. I didn't see see any Si response to some of these issues so I am hoping to make sure they aren't forgotten.

Animations - I'd love to see one of the  bone crunching but fair tackle with the defender standing over the attacker / winger Stuart Pearce style :)

 

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17 hours ago, jc1 said:

Before try g to get FM to be as realistic as possible, it has to iron out all the niggles etc in game. Top players kicking the ball against the back of another's legs when attempting a pass, players unable to stop quickly enough when stopping a ball going over the line, players standing like statues while their opponent just takes the ball off them, lower league keepers playing lime De Gea.

Imo those are all animation issues. Top players do give bad passes, but the current ME's animation limitations means they are represented as ball kicking against the back of a teammate's legs. Goalkeepers do get anticipated by strikers, but the current ME's animation limitations means that they are displayed as bouncing nonchalantly on the spot etc. etc.

 

I agree that these niggles should be removed/tweaked as a priority because things like this really do break match immersion, or at least they do for me. I am confident SI will deal with it, tbh

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