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Cleon

The Spanish Libero and the Invisible Wall

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10 hours ago, Pattric_b said:

On this website? Can you link?

 

3 hours ago, Cleon said:

I find that hard to believe. I probably understand the libero role better than most and know its maximum capabilities when coupled with other roles etc. Also someone can be involved in general play and not do what they're supposed to do. The libero role isn't a dictator role. If he had the role playing how it should, he would have surely used the stats to hammer home his point.

Do you have a link to the article please?

https://www.thehighertempopress.com/?s=Libero

https://fmasymmetric.wordpress.com/2017/01/10/sparta-a-tactical-identity-journey-part-v-libero-rewind/

By the same Author. @LPQR

Maybe I might have misinterpreted the analysis, but i didn't see the problem of "DMCs getting in the way". Again, correct me if I'm wrong.

P.S: If the Libero isn't a dictaor role, what would you sat it is? I'd go with a hybrid form of a deep lying playmaker 

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4 minutes ago, sherifdinn_ said:

 

https://www.thehighertempopress.com/?s=Libero

https://fmasymmetric.wordpress.com/2017/01/10/sparta-a-tactical-identity-journey-part-v-libero-rewind/

By the same Author. @LPQR

Maybe I might have misinterpreted the analysis, but i didn't see the problem of "DMCs getting in the way". Again, correct me if I'm wrong.

P.S: If the Libero isn't a dictaor role, what would you sat it is? I'd go with a hybrid form of a deep lying playmaker 

Ah I know these articles. None of them show examples of the libero playing deep in the oppositions half. In all the examples posted, they don't really get forward and are positioned how you'd expect any normal player to be positioned (just past the half way line)

The fact they use DMC's takes away from the libero's games. I can see in the examples posted that the player stops running and doesn't go beyond the invisible wall I spoke about. And the build up play they posted, is just standard build up play deep in their own half. Which any defender/deep role will do naturally anyway. There isn't much 'libero play' in any of those posts imo.

The Libero isn't a hybrid playmaker as such. He's more of a runner and someone who uses space that the other players create. He's more a box to box player above all else. But he'll only venture forward regular in the correct set ups and you require a specific player.

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3 hours ago, Cleon said:

The fact they use DMC's takes away from the libero's games.

Thanks, point noted

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5 hours ago, Cleon said:

Ah I know these articles. None of them show examples of the libero playing deep in the oppositions half. In all the examples posted, they don't really get forward and are positioned how you'd expect any normal player to be positioned (just past the half way line)

The fact they use DMC's takes away from the libero's games. I can see in the examples posted that the player stops running and doesn't go beyond the invisible wall I spoke about. And the build up play they posted, is just standard build up play deep in their own half. Which any defender/deep role will do naturally anyway. There isn't much 'libero play' in any of those posts imo.

The Libero isn't a hybrid playmaker as such. He's more of a runner and someone who uses space that the other players create. He's more a box to box player above all else. But he'll only venture forward regular in the correct set ups and you require a specific player.

I suppose what is debated here is the very definition of a libero :) In my systems I tended to use him, indeed, in supporting/playmaking roles, however I disagree that any defender / deep role would do the same job.

I would say manipulation of space and technical / numerical advantage based on both vertical and horizontal movements were the key advantages of the libero that I liked and focused on. In most of my systems (very much alike between them in terms of formation at least) I focused on a centre overload/ excess support for the wings. 

Of course, it also depends on the tactical styles you use - you could have, indeed a runner/box to box libero or a supporting / playmaking one depending on the overall style and role / mentality distribution in the system. 

On top of all that, if I remember well, even with a free midfield formation (free space for the libero to act in) and with a vertical style of play, in those versions of the game - FM17, FM18, the libero still did not behave like much of a runner and his verticality sometimes hit that invisible wall indeed. 

If you manage to get this kind of behaviour @Cleon I would be very interested to see the details of your setup :)

 

 

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@Cleon

How are you finding FM19 libero role? Has there been any changes.  As now we can have only libero in the same line as defenders. Do you reckon there are more changes? Or if you have covered this about FM19 can you please share link :)

I have not being playing lot of this year. But think giving it a go again and maybe try to motivate with getting some.

 

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On 03/02/2019 at 10:59, saihtam said:

@Cleon

How are you finding FM19 libero role? Has there been any changes.  As now we can have only libero in the same line as defenders. Do you reckon there are more changes? Or if you have covered this about FM19 can you please share link :)

I have not being playing lot of this year. But think giving it a go again and maybe try to motivate with getting some.

 

I find that this year the Libero is involved more in the play HOWEVER i dont know why but my Ajax tactic of last year using a 3 5 2 is not working this time around. Im not sure what im doing wrong but i will keep plugging away.

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719358381_SandroTonali_OverviewProfile-2.thumb.png.7a8c8d3c40b26dde3c3f30334b66aba5.png

This kids seems like a nasty libero in the making

Edited by saihtam

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I'm currently watching Atalanta vs SPAL, and what I've noticed from these matches involving Atalanta is that quite often whenever they're behind, their center back Rafael Tolói (usually positioned on the right of a back-three) often make cavalier runs forward from deep with or without the ball at his feet, then sneaking his way into the opposition's penalty box to act as an extra target for crosses (he even managed to score a header once this way against Roma); sometimes he even just camps there upfront when his teammates decide to take a more patient approach. Currently in-game he does have the traits that you'd assume should help him behaving just like he does in real life, but even setting him up as a Libero (A), he never makes these sort of box-to-box actions.

I would love to be able to replicate how he plays in real life to FM (maybe technically it's not a Libero role, especially of old, but perhaps it's the closest thing currently in game for center backs), so I'm following this thread with great interest :)

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I was inspired by Cleon's persistent error reports and feature requests in search of more attacking central defenders to assess the state of the Libero in FM19 (as other CB roles simply aren't that attacking as-is). The only shape I've been truly happy with is a flat 5-4-1. The great numbers deep allow us to slowly build from the back with possession and give the Libero plenty of safe options. The Libero is the most specialized role in the tactic, as he is the main player who plays unexpected long-balls or even early crosses from deep. My observation is also that L(A) with no DMs or specialized midfield playmakers is necessary to leave as much space in front of our defence in all phases for the most attacking libero possible, that is basically a very deep lying box to box midfielder/playmaker hybrid.

I have been using Juve and Barca to test libero shapes with big sides, as I'm curious whether a Libero can be relevant in the first season (i.e. without a totally insane team) against clubs with top wingers/inside forwards. My observations have been that 3-5-2, 5-3-2, and asymetric shapes that are kind of like that might work better in FM19 sans Libero. Like a regista or DLP, the Libero seems to benefit from wingers and WBs stretching the play.  A sweeper keeper helps but an attack duty causes the keeper to dribble too long and ignore the Libero. Avoid SK(A) imo. In the Barca save I try to use and develop the Libero tactic every game for at least the first year as they have a stronger/wealthier side. With Juve the Libero tactic will be a more defensive alternative to some more direct tactics that suit their squad a bit better against parked bus.

The TIs and PIs aren't all settled yet as this system is still in its infancy. The goal is to play slow possession football with the Libero upping the tempo as-needed, and mid-pressure defense (unlike most modern possession teams) to let the Libero start counters with timely interceptions and pressing (which seem to be one of his chief advantages over the DLP/regista: deeper starting position can enable a defensively smart player to snatch counter attacking opportunities from the jaws of their passes). This restricts the overall attacking glitz of the system but leads to a pleasing blend of stability, passing, counter-attacks, and numerical superiority when forced to defend deep. A highlight was a 4-3 win away at Inter in CL group after Coutinho (who plays winger on support duty) was sent off early. I have played around with a few different mentalities, I find positive works really well for mixing speed and patience (as always).

I have experimented with converting to midfielders to Liberos, and using players now thought of as very aggressive BPDs (Pique, Vermaelen, Bonucci) who are just itching to play Libero and had better results with the latter approach. A player who already had brings ball out of defense (Tonali) would tempt me to convert a mid to Libero a lot more. My original plan was to buy Milinkovic-Savic for Barca and try him as an ultra-goalscoring Libero but I doubt he will get high enough up the pitch so if I sign him (as an example of a gilded Libero side) he will be my BBM. The BBM works well with Libero as he searches for space ahead of our main man to exploit and score with. A BBM in a 5-4-1 can be very attacking. If I have all the money in the world I'll also try to sign Upamecano to replace Vermaelen after the first year. I signed De Light to be the "vice" deep creator next to my Libero (I find the blend of DC roles allows all of them to be involved differently while maintaining a creative hierarchy) for both sides at the beginning of year 1. I won't sign anyone else in the first season for either team except Milinkovic-Savic for Barca and Maxi Gomez on Juve, because I already signed him for my other direct football experiment. I'll update you when I have more.

My current set-up is:

SK(S)
WB(S)-BPD-(D)-L(A)-CD(D)-WB(S)

W(S)-CM(S)-BBM(S)-W(S)

PF-A (or AF, or Trequartista when Messi or Dybala are up front seems to be less detracting from Libero than ordinary playmakers)

Edited by nonEUglitch
forgot to mention mentality

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On 12/02/2019 at 04:13, nonEUglitch said:

I have experimented with converting to midfielders to Liberos, and using players now thought of as very aggressive BPDs (Pique, Vermaelen, Bonucci) who are just itching to play Libero and had better results with the latter approach. A player who already had brings ball out of defense (Tonali) would tempt me to convert a mid to Libero a lot more. My original plan was to buy Milinkovic-Savic for Barca and try him as an ultra-goalscoring Libero but I doubt he will get high enough up the pitch so if I sign him (as an example of a gilded Libero side) he will be my BBM.

ever thought of converting sergio busquets to a Libero?

 

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1 hour ago, sherifdinn_ said:

ever thought of converting sergio busquets to a Libero?

 

Don't think his Player Traits will let him behaving as how you'd expect a Libero would though.

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15 minutes ago, bangkonggedek said:

Don't think his Player Traits will let him behaving as how you'd expect a Libero would though.

Doesn't he have playmaker traits

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37 minutes ago, sherifdinn_ said:

Doesn't he have playmaker traits

Nope, he has traits that perfectly suit his game (or at least how he played under Guardiola and Enrique, haven't seen much of him recently) - Runs With Ball Rarely, Plays Simple Passes, Stays Back At All Times.

Also he's slow as hell, would get exposed as a Libero. 

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2 hours ago, zlatanera said:

Nope, he has traits that perfectly suit his game (or at least how he played under Guardiola and Enrique, haven't seen much of him recently) - Runs With Ball Rarely, Plays Simple Passes, Stays Back At All Times.

Also he's slow as hell, would get exposed as a Libero. 

Interesting that he has ‘Plays Simple Passes’... I think ‘Dictates Tempo’ would be more appropriate, allowing him to pick and choose when he plays aggressive passes between the lines - which he does quite often. 

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11 hours ago, sherifdinn_ said:

ever thought of converting sergio busquets to a Libero?

 

Good God. That would be a bad idea. I'd try to convert Arthur into a Libero instead. Either him or KPB

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1 hour ago, Jean0987654321 said:

Good God. That would be a bad idea. I'd try to convert Arthur into a Libero instead. Either him or KPB

As sides his ppms (which I'm not sure of) I think he has good attributes for the role. I think it'll help that he is also a natural controlling playmaker (which I think is one of the libero's duties in-game?)

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10 hours ago, zlatanera said:

Runs With Ball Rarely, Plays Simple Passes, Stays Back At All Times.

Lol had no idea

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8 hours ago, jc577 said:

Interesting that he has ‘Plays Simple Passes’... I think ‘Dictates Tempo’ would be more appropriate, allowing him to pick and choose when he plays aggressive passes between the lines - which he does quite often. 

Perhaps, but I think his high technical and mental stats (at least 16 in Technique, Passing, Vision, Decisions) means he’ll still do that when it’s on. But he’d be much better used as the deepest midfielder who will recycle possession and give it back to the Libero. 

29 minutes ago, sherifdinn_ said:

As sides his ppms (which I'm not sure of) I think he has good attributes for the role. I think it'll help that he is also a natural controlling playmaker (which I think is one of the libero's duties in-game?)

If you read the thread Cleon advocates using the role as more of a runner, but I think most people end up using playmakers there - saw Rashidi using Houssem Aouar for example. You’d need a quality backup though, I don’t think his physicals will allow him to play Saturday-Tuesday-Saturday with a top team in that role. 

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10 hours ago, zlatanera said:

If you read the thread Cleon advocates using the role as more of a runner, but I think most people end up using playmakers there

I too see use it as a playmaker role as I never really seeing it arriving late in the box all i see him do is step in and spray passes out wide

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If people are using a more playmaker type of libero rather than a runner, you're probably better off just using a defensive midfielder role above a libero. As the DM position will play the playmaker roles much better than a libero. Basically if you use a playmaker and your libero isn't making late surging runs into the final third, then a DLP/RPM/SV will all do the role much better than a libero ever will. There is no reason ever to use a libero above a defensive midfielder if its for playmaking reasons imo. 

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The DLP, RPM and SV role won't drop into the same line as the CBs would in the defensive phase though, which I would guess that's another thing that people would like to achieve by using the Libero role for their playmaker.

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38 minutes ago, bangkonggedek said:

The DLP, RPM and SV role won't drop into the same line as the CBs would in the defensive phase though, which I would guess that's another thing that people would like to achieve by using the Libero role for their playmaker.

That doesn't make any sense though as you only use a libero for his attacking ability. If you want to focus on defensive side of things you would never use a libero. And the libero is caught out of position a fair bit anyway, so he doesn't always drop back to his natural position that fast, depending on how quickly you lose the ball and how far up the pitch he is. And the DM's can drop deeper if you set your line of engagement up correctly. The DM and libero take up roughly the same recovery position to begin with initially. So you still don't lose anything. However I stand by what I said. The libero offers nothing that a standard DM role can't fulfill much better and easier. 

There is not a single benefit of using a libero who is a playmaker over a deep-lying playmaker for example, not one other than wanting to use a libero for the sake of it (which is something I often do). 

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1 minute ago, Cleon said:

That doesn't make any sense though as you only use a libero for his attacking ability. If you want to focus on defensive side of things you would never use a libero. And the libero is caught out of position a fair bit anyway, so he doesn't always drop back to his natural position that fast, depending on how quickly you lose the ball and how far up the pitch he is. And the DM's can drop deeper if you set your line of engagement up correctly. The DM and libero take up roughly the same recovery position to begin with initially. So you still don't lose anything. However I stand by what I said. The libero offers nothing that a standard DM role can't fulfill much better and easier. 

That's how you'd like to use a proper Libero role, and so do I personally, but who's to say that's what other people would like to get from a so-called "Libero" role in its current state in FM? The way I see it is that some people (other FM players that I know, at least) didn't want to focus and maximizing on just a single aspect of his game, but merely just to get a little bit of both, at the expense of the player designated with the role won't do anything truly exciting befitting of such name for the role, so to speak. What they'd look for is a role who'll only stray just a little bit upward to the deeper middle third area simply as an extra option for maintaining possession when your team has been in control of the ball after a good while or as a pivot to shift the play to the other flank when one flank has become too congested, so nothing terribly imaginative as playmaking goes; and then when it's your team's turn to be behind the ball for a good duration of the game, this so-called "Libero" will drop and sit into a back three with the outer CBs. He should just sit there in his designated area and marking players without having to think too much of obstructing the opponent's passing lanes as DMs naturally would, no matter how deep they're told to drop. On the other hand, using the DM roles to drop very deep where it's almost to a CB position often leads to the slight issue in the ME where the two CBs won't spread wide enough to accommodate the dropping DM, so the center of the back line tends to get too congested.

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8 minutes ago, bangkonggedek said:

That's how you'd like to use a proper Libero role, and so do I personally, but who's to say that's what other people would like to get from a so-called "Libero" role in its current state in FM? The way I see it is that some people (other FM players that I know, at least) didn't want to focus and maximizing on just a single aspect of his game, but merely just to get a little bit of both, at the expense of the player designated with the role won't do anything truly exciting befitting of such name for the role, so to speak. What they'd look for is a role who'll only stray just a little bit upward to the deeper middle third area simply as an extra option for maintaining possession when your team has been in control of the ball after a good while or as a pivot to shift the play to the other flank when one flank has become too congested, so nothing terribly imaginative as playmaking goes; and then when it's your team's turn to be behind the ball for a good duration of the game, this so-called "Libero" will drop and sit into a back three with the outer CBs. He should just sit there in his designated area and marking players without having to think too much of obstructing the opponent's passing lanes as DMs naturally would, no matter how deep they're told to drop. On the other hand, using the DM roles to drop very deep where it's almost to a CB position often leads to the slight issue in the ME where the two CBs won't spread wide enough to accommodate the dropping DM, so the center of the back line tends to get too congested.

Agreed, other people may want something different - it's just that isn't a Libero.  It's really not much more than a centre back who'll venture forwards at times, but that's a whole different issue.

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Personally i just think it looks cool having Tonali bringing the ball out of the defence surging forwards and either hitting a shot or spraying a ball out to the flanks.

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@craigd84: I found it very difficult to get my designated "Libero" to be a decent threat from outside of the box with long shots though. Did you managed to get him to shoot with regularity from the distance? I even tried experimenting a bit using the Create-a-Club mode to create this made-up player with all the traits and attributes for it just to see if it's possible at all, yet he very rarely even bother to try to even when the chances are there for him to exploit.

Edited by bangkonggedek

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2 hours ago, herne79 said:

Agreed, other people may want something different - it's just that isn't a Libero.  It's really not much more than a centre back who'll venture forwards at times, but that's a whole different issue.

True, thus essentially you can say it's just another Ball Playing Defender albeit with more license to stray up the field from the backline than what is allowed for BPD, with the emphasis in finding the best positions to maintain possession and the occasional key passes for the team on the ball over safe defensive positioning first and foremost then being available as an option for back passes then spraying progressive passes second and third as you would get from the BPD — it's a more proactive 'controller' role than the BPD, and the interpretation of the Libero in the current edition of FM is pretty much the one that works for that purpose.

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On 21/02/2019 at 16:07, bangkonggedek said:

@craigd84: I found it very difficult to get my designated "Libero" to be a decent threat from outside of the box with long shots though. Did you managed to get him to shoot with regularity from the distance? I even tried experimenting a bit using the Create-a-Club mode to create this made-up player with all the traits and attributes for it just to see if it's possible at all, yet he very rarely even bother to try to even when the chances are there for him to exploit.

So, to make him more of a threat...

every set piece including throwings I have him set to lurking outside the box and everyone else in the box or defending.

I also have shoots from distance ect. 

The libero still looks for passes more often than not but thats because his TW stat is 16... ideally if you want a libero to shoot more try and have his teamwork around 10.

 

But alas, even though it seems the actual libero role works better this year i cant seem to find a formation where the other roles fit together to make an efficient tactic.

Edited by craigd84

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