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Andrew_Goats_Gruff

Controlling poor teams needs to be fun again

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I find it impossible to get top 12 with Burton Albion first season, I’ve even gave up and quit when i was 16th before after 20 yod games because it just isn’t enjoyable. Fot Football Manager 2019 I think over achieving instantly should be a possibility, for example, Shrewsbury Town, Millwall, Accrington Stanley, Burnley, on FM how many teams seem to overachieve on YOUR save? I see alot of underachieving. On next seasons FM i’d love to be able to over achieve, on this fm, i can be at home v bottom side not won in first 10 and I just no I will lose. Their player all of a sudden turns it on and your form players all or a sudden go awful. 

League Cup 1st round defeat is my usual, over effectiveness of lack of match sharpness. 

On old games, you’d finish 6th 7th 8th with Blackburn first season and you’d be so happy and thrilled with your save, now when I come from work I think I cba to play it, either pick an already made team and be boring or pick a team an build and spend ridiculous time on it. 

I want a possibility on fm that you can win the prem first season on with Huddersfield (leicester in real life) or a possibility that you can get promoted amazingly against the odds (Huddersfield). In real life over achieving always happens, on fm it’s toooooo rare, too much emphasis on player skills maybe?

 

what you lot think

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I think you are asking a bit much. In reality, how often does it really happen?

You can 'overachieve' in FM18, there are plenty of threads around about the exploit tactics, but really, in first season with little scouting knowledge and essentially the squad you are given you should be happy with anything above your prediction. THAT is a realistic simulation of IRL football management.

If your players are not match fir for the first round of the league cup - arrange more friendlies beforehand, it's the only way to build match-fitness.

At the end of the day, Huddersfield never had a squad of players who could win the premier League, therefore, the only way could would be through tactics - which is ultimately up to you. Even with the best tactic for those players, a team with 11 better players will always have an advantage over you.

If their best player 'suddenly turns it on' then react and adjust your tactic to nullify him. If your 'star' players are having a bad day, react and adjust your tactic to free them up or support them.

Leicester won the league with their tactic, it was best suited for the players available and worked really well against the bigger teams - you can do the same.

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Assuming that FM is trying to be as realistic as possible, what you are wanting will never be that easy, using default game conditions.  If you want this level of achievement you either need to work hard at the game over an extended period, or buy an editor and edit your team and players so that it becomes possible.

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There's two ways of making that "Huddersfield/Leicester" scenario more likely. 1) More randomness. There isn't direct evidence as such, but plenty signs that in that Leicester season not only were some of their players underrated -- there were also various sides tht may have been underperforming in the point tables. To such an extent, FM doesn't simulate this, perhaps better so, as it's similar to Real coming in 4th in the table start of the year despite having the most chances/shots in all of Europe. Whenever bigger teams in FM tend to underperform, on the level of AI anyway, they are nowhere near here. Be ware that could always fire the other way around. Not sure what you'd do if you were Zidane in such a season.
 

Another route is  2) decreasing the difficulty / offering custom options.  This is far more likely to happen than the game offering a hardcore mode. Take the current Pillars Of Eternity II Deadfire. Not only was the first game specifically pitched to RPG fans of yesteryore, used to games where failure was an option. They later patched a "story mode" in, where you can finish the game by just enjoying the vistas. (Which is great, but exemplary of how games are catering to players these days, even specialized ones). Meanwhile the mechanics aren't quite as punishing as Baldur's Gate no matter what you pick.

Edited by Svenc

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4 hours ago, Snorks said:

You can 'overachieve' in FM18, there are plenty of threads around about the exploit tactics

Andrew I suggest you follow this advise if you want to overachieve within the boundaries of the game. The exploit tactics seem ridiculously effective even with a sub-par squad, but be warned it might ruin your fun in the long run. 

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Why on earth would you want the game to be easy and be able to win the league in your 1st season with a **** team? Where do you go from there?

The game should be tough if you are in charge of a smaller club and you have ambitions of making them a better team, it should take you a few seasons and tweeks and changes to your team and your tactics.

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The game is already too easy as it is. Just look at all the "from the Vanarama North/South - to the Premier League with promotions every single year" challenges. Watch Rashidi's YouTube series and you will see that the game is way too easy for people who know what they're doing.

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I’m not saying make it easy, i’m saying make it a possibility. Using exploit tactics is blatantly cheating and to anyone suggesting using them, I hope your joking. If I use 442 with Burton, convincing my players they are better than they are should be a possibility as footballs a massive mental game, happiness and confidence give great results. If I start a game for example with Burton, I no i’m never getting promoted 1st season, must be a way to enable over acheiving once every blue moon on it, game seems to static in it’s difficulty 

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1 minute ago, Andrew_Goats_Gruff said:

I’m not saying make it easy, i’m saying make it a possibility. Using exploit tactics is blatantly cheating and to anyone suggesting using them, I hope your joking. If I use 442 with Burton, convincing my players they are better than they are should be a possibility as footballs a massive mental game, happiness and confidence give great results. If I start a game for example with Burton, I no i’m never getting promoted 1st season, must be a way to enable over acheiving once every blue moon on it, game seems to static in it’s difficulty 

It is a possibility, just rare as in real life. It is a possibility to convince players that they're better than they are, that's where the morale comes into it. 

Take the Leicester City example, they were 5000-1 to win the league. Raneri convinced them that they were better than they were, coupled with the way he got them playing, and the fact that all of the big teams had really off seasons, that's how they won the league. It was a number of unlikely scenarios that came together. In FM, it is much easier to over-achieve than in real life.

If it's not winning the league/ being promoted, define over-achievement? Because finishing one position above your prediction is still over-achieving...

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3 minutes ago, Neil Brock said:

I'm not quite sure where to start with this thread. When teams overachieve it's generally down to playing to their strengths. You talk about Leicester and whilst a part was down to their confidence, a very large part of it was down to how the manager had them tactically setup. If you want to start a game with a team expected to finish 24th and have them 16th playing 4-4-2, then you're already overachieving. You can improve them by getting better players, but if the game just artificially boosted their ability due to just having high morale then you'd be playing Morale Manager, not Football Manager. 

With the right system in certain games with the right players you can overachieve. I've seen teams finish well above their predicted finish in game. Just because Burnley don't finish top 4 or Millwall win the Championship at a canter doesn't mean the game isn't 'fun' managing a poor team. Realistically as a truly poor team, not being relegated and the battle to do so is  what I'd consider fun! :D 

Couldn't have said it better my self!

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36 minutes ago, Neotropolis said:

It is a possibility, just rare as in real life. It is a possibility to convince players that they're better than they are, that's where the morale comes into it. 

Take the Leicester City example, they were 5000-1 to win the league. Raneri convinced them that they were better than they were, coupled with the way he got them playing, and the fact that all of the big teams had really off seasons, that's how they won the league. It was a number of unlikely scenarios that came together. In FM, it is much easier to over-achieve than in real life.

If it's not winning the league/ being promoted, define over-achievement? Because finishing one position above your prediction is still over-achieving...

The Leicester example is poorly used many times.

 

Kante is the best defensive midfielder in the league, even now at Chelsea. Vardy is still consistently the best striker outside the top 6. Mahrez is still an electric winger who is easily the best player outside the top 6. He'd walk into most teams even now.

 

This isn't the case of a rag tag bunch over-performing, it is two players coming into their prime together, and a third world class defensive midfielder joining them. Leicester already had a good defence anyway, that shield from Kante made it comparable to any defence that the top 6 had. Other than that, Leicester were worse than Arsenal and Spurs, but teams came out to attack them. However, Kante, Vardy and Mahrez were much better than anything these attacking midtable sides had.

 

In contrast, when Arsenal and Spurs rocked up to those same teams, they sat back because, hello, it's Arsenal, it's Spurs, so we dropped points. Leicester's squad was not a relegation side, which can be evidenced from the face that  even without Kante now, they're easily top 10

Edited by theonets

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1 hour ago, theonets said:

In contrast, when Arsenal and Spurs rocked up to those same teams, they sat back because, hello, it's Arsenal, it's Spurs, so we dropped points. Leicester's squad was not a relegation side, which can be evidenced from the face that  even without Kante now, they're easily top 10

It's not a huge stretch to suggest that if Arsenal wasn't hit by random chance this oftenly, they may have nicked it. This is similar to perceived "hot streaks" for forwards. There may be an element of confidence, but streaks as such happen because they happen. They are an inherent part of football DNA, as it's such an ultra low scoring sports. I've been following this for quite a while now, but whenever a big side "underperforms", there always tends to be finishing streaks involved of some kind. Similar, if worse side overperform dramatically, they are oft scarily efficient to an extent that is not repeatable. That may not be the number one factor, but it always tends to be there. Good and bad fortunes don't repeat though, skill does. Single seasons are just 30-40 match days. If they'd last a couple hundred, things would be boring and predictable pretty damn fast with little surprises.

This is even more of a thing in the Bundesliga, where there is oft 3 lucky wins plus a couple additional draws between relegation play-off and reaching Europe. See Cologne last season, and this one. Whilst their performance may have justified a relegation spot, them not winning a match until mid Decembre was as hugely unlikely as them chasing Bayern well into September the season prior. If the name of Matt Benham rings a bell -- he suggested that Hertha 2009, almost finishing top (with a suspiciously low goal difference) were a worse side than Nuremberg relegated a season prior. (Hertha finished dead last the season after).

Also, from my experience, FM doesn't simulate such streaks. Perhaps it better shouldn't. :idiot:

Edited by Svenc

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1 hour ago, Andrew_Goats_Gruff said:

I’m not saying make it easy, i’m saying make it a possibility. Using exploit tactics is blatantly cheating and to anyone suggesting using them, I hope your joking. If I use 442 with Burton, convincing my players they are better than they are should be a possibility as footballs a massive mental game, happiness and confidence give great results. If I start a game for example with Burton, I no i’m never getting promoted 1st season, must be a way to enable over acheiving once every blue moon on it, game seems to static in it’s difficulty 

I don't understand your argument.

"Once in a blue moon" may be possible but demanding it in your first year instantly isn't "once in a blue moon" is it?

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FM has so much emphasis on being difficult that you can genuinely lose every game in a season, if your bad enough, this shouldn’t be possible 1% . The game is incredibly too hard, nrw comers to the game will think sod that

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1 minute ago, Andrew_Goats_Gruff said:

FM has so much emphasis on being difficult that you can genuinely lose every game in a season, if your bad enough, this shouldn’t be possible 1% .

If you have found the bug that lets you field no keeper, perhaps. :D (Or if the side is just hopeless).

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It's still quite easy because you are the human and you base your decisions on context as well as the data. You'll be able to make more astute signings, be more radical/risky with tactics, and so on.

The game has got more difficult as it's become more in-depth, but it's more of a realistic simulation than maybe 10-12 years ago, when signing Dean Ashton made my Sunderland team runaway Premier League winners a year after being promoted. Yeah, that was pretty fun, but I didn't kid myself about it showing any signs of realism. Depends what you want in a football management game, really.

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2 hours ago, Svenc said:

It's not a huge stretch to suggest that if Arsenal wasn't hit by random chance this oftenly, they may have nicked it. This is similar to perceived "hot streaks" for forwards. There may be an element of confidence, but streaks as such happen because they happen. They are an inherent part of football DNA, as it's such an ultra low scoring sports. I've been following this for quite a while now, but whenever a big side "underperforms", there always tends to be finishing streaks involved of some kind. Similar, if worse side overperform dramatically, they are oft scarily efficient to an extent that is not repeatable. That may not be the number one factor, but it always tends to be there. Good and bad fortunes don't repeat though, skill does. Single seasons are just 30-40 match days. If they'd last a couple hundred, things would be boring and predictable pretty damn fast with little surprises.

This is even more of a thing in the Bundesliga, where there is oft 3 lucky wins plus a couple additional draws between relegation play-off and reaching Europe. See Cologne last season, and this one. Whilst their performance may have justified a relegation spot, them not winning a match until mid Decembre was as hugely unlikely as them chasing Bayern well into September the season prior. If the name of Matt Benham rings a bell -- he suggested that Hertha 2009, almost finishing top (with a suspiciously low goal difference) were a worse side than Nuremberg relegated a season prior. (Hertha finished dead last the season after).

Also, from my experience, FM doesn't simulate such streaks. Perhaps it better shouldn't. :idiot:

If FM implemented those streaks, people would have a heart attack. As it is, forwards not scoring for 6-7 games causes people so many problems, imagine if something like Giroud's streak of 13 scoreless games happened to very good strikers in FM regularly. 

 

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2 hours ago, Svenc said:

If you have found the bug that lets you field no keeper, perhaps. :D (Or if the side is just hopeless).

Tbh, I've managed to not get a win with a team I got promoted from League 2 to the Premier League with consecutive promotions. We got lucky in the Championship somehow, and this was proved with our horrific PL season, followed by us barely getting midtable after which we stablised again. FM is not as easy as all that. In fact, I'd argue it's much easier for poor teams to overachieve in FM that in real life. Teams barely good enough for the Championship will never get promoted in real life.

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My experience with lower leagues the past 3 years hasn't been that they are overly hard. In fact I found it to be pretty straight forward even as someone learning the game.  In FM2016 I climbed up from Vanarama North to League Football in 2 seasons. And it wasn't until I hit Championship League that I plateaued for a few seasons. I do find Championship League very difficult to get out of but I suspect that that is probably not too surprising?

In FM2017 I did quite well while in N. Ireland, India, and then Norway's lower level leagues.  In those lower leagues I was typically quite successful with 4-1-2-3 Wide formation.

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The Leicester example is  good example to use I think, not being a Leicester fan but enjoying that season because of them.

Ranieri had a squad of players, he knew how to get the best out of them. He had a solid, dependable and experienced partnership in DC, a bit of flair and he recognised the value of Kante as a worker in the middle. He had pace up front and a finisher in Vardy.


So, if you were him, how would you set the team up?

Solid, tight, disciplined and grafting without the ball. With the ball, pacey, direct, 'Pass Into Space' was definitely selected in the TIs. Sit a little deeper, draw the opposition in and hit them on the break with the pace. They had pace and width on attack, killer attributes against teams with hi-flying attacking fullbacks like most of the top-6 big boys had.

You CAN do this in FM18, it's not easy, it takes game-time, you just have to do what Ranieri did - see the strengths you have, recognise the weaknesses and build a tactic to plug the weakness and exploit your strengths. Then, just hope the big boys have off-season or some bad luck - because there was a heap of it that season.

 

 

Edited by Snorks

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17 hours ago, theonets said:

If FM implemented those streaks, people would have a heart attack. As it is, forwards not scoring for 6-7 games causes people so many problems, imagine if something like Giroud's streak of 13 scoreless games happened to very good strikers in FM regularly.


I agree, and tbf I'm not sure how I'd react to this myself. The caveat in the above is that it is well possible to get Giroud (or anybody) down to not scoring in 13 games. However, that will only happen if he doesn't have decent opportunity to do so, typically. In football this stuff happens in sequence despite forwards having plenty of opportunity to score. And it's not one-offs, this is influencing league tables in every competition top to bottom. At its most severe, it can contribute to Dortmund sitting 18th place by February 2015 -- or Zidane almost seeing the sack as both his forwards go AWOL for months (not for lack of trying -- Ronaldo averaged 7 shots per match from good positions). However, back on the topic at hand -- this is random chance not in the game to this extent that can contribute to worse sides overperforming (at least over the course of a single season) and vice versa.

Edited by Svenc

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Managing small sides is NOT fun in real life and shouldn't be fun (or easy) in FM either!

If anything, overachieving is way too easy and you can win or draw games while managing poorly an abysmal side even without knowing how or why.

 

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I don't think it's a problem at all. Firstly, as RBKalle just said, I doubt managing small teams in tough divisions is fun. Nigel Clough looks like he's aged about 20 years over the last couple of seasons. Also, for what it's worth, on my Orient save where I'm in 2025/26, Burton are now in League 2.

On the flip side, FC United of Manchester and Hereford have both managed 3 promotions each across that time which is definitely overachieving. Also, using a simple 4-4-2 formation, I achieved consecutive promotions from the National League to the PL and am now into my fifth season in the top flight.

Basically, it is possible to overachieve but it doesn't happen often. Which is perfectly realistic. 

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1 ora fa, theonets ha scritto:

play a 4-3-3 with 3 strikers up front. 

Just in case you wanted to play 3 centerbacks up front.

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3 minutes ago, Federico said:

Just in case you wanted to play 3 centerbacks up front.

I think he was more pointing to the fact that a 4-3-3 works with either a striker and two wingers, or having three strikers.

Having said that, using a 6'4" CB as a target man up front can work surprisingly well...

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3 hours ago, Federico said:

Just in case you wanted to play 3 centerbacks up front.

Was talking about the more common 4-3-3 with wingers, and a sole striker.

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Why would you expect to be able to have instant success with any side? Maybe if you are excellent tactically and getting the most out of a poor team. Otherwise you should be happy to slightly exceed your expectations and make your team better. That is how it should be. Over achieving is very possible though. I managed to take Nottm Forest into Europe in 2 years from the start of the game by making us extremely hard to beat (I Pulis'd it up). But that is an exception for me, I did not expect it, things just came together with the squad. 

Also, if you see a lot of teams underachieving, then by default there must be as many teams overachieving =P.

If you want instant success in this game, pick a rich team or one with good players (or a team who are better than those in their league). Otherwise, small teams should be challenging. 

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How do I overachieve with poor sides? I focus on the strengths I have and try and do our best. We won't win everything, but I usually have the same strategy. Defend with as many as a I can and hope for the best with a long punt. Thats basically FM18. In previous editions of FM I could get poor sides to play like Barcelona and get successive promotions which never made sense. I am not saying this engine doesn't have issues, all I am saying is that you need to have a coherent plan. To give you an example. I was in a cup run and the only half decent player who would sign for my side was an ex international keeper with great shot stopping stats. Quite by accident I remembered that the Carabao Cup needs to be decided on the day, and going to a penalty shoot out was our best bet. We knocked sides out through penalty shootouts by playing with 6 defenders and only 1 striker. I parked the bus in a big way.

When I play against other sides I have to crack my head and think of how I can shore up my defences and in most cases I know I can't allow other teams to dribble through me, so I stick in tall players who can head the ball and pray that opposing teams see the easier route down the flanks and plonk crosses into my giants who win and then with one kick send the ball upfield where I only attack with 2 strikers. I have lost count of the number of games where I win 1-0 with 2 shots on goal. I play dirty football as well, I disrupt, cajole and target players to injure them, so that they end up with one less player. So I employ every trick in the book, whether its fair or not I don't care. I have found that my side can't play a 433 well, they can't cos we are that bad we literally had to play with 6 players at the back for the Carabao cup. The league on the other hand thats where I set tactics up to counter specific formations. I see someone attacking me with wingbacks I play with at least one attack duty down that flank and I exploit it. 

To be honest I never had such a harder time than I have had on FM18.

We just got promoted to the premiership. My first goal was to go out there and find giants for central defenders, then I went out to find at least one striker who could run fast and another who had the strength to be a bully. We finished in 14th position in our first season. I strengthened my side and we are almost finishing our second season there, and we are closer to the relegation zone than we are to mid table. So yes, its a lot harder, is it less fun. No. I just wish that my set pieces would start working again, for some strange reason, they don't close down the set piece taker anymore. And that's happened totally out of the blue, and its affected my style of play making it far easier for me to concede goals now. 

At least now in FM18, I can't bring bus boys to the premiership title, they at least need some talent.

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9 minutes ago, sporadicsmiles said:

If you want instant success in this game, pick a rich team or one with good players (or a team who are better than those in their league). Otherwise, small teams should be challenging. 

Celtic springs to mind...

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