Extremely poor away form

[fraeyke]

Hi,

I'm playing Schalke and after taking over last year i was able te play champions.
This year however, for some reason I just can't seem to win any away games.

My home form has been excellent so far.

 

This is the tactic im generaly using:

Altough I have tried many different approaches, tactics, teamtalks,...
I just keep on losing.

I noticed that on away games I have much more difficulties close marking the opposition( also tried loose marking), the players make way more errors (tried low presurre team talks)

I'm really stuck and clueless what to do atm..

Any help would be welcome!

[Svenc]

That is a rather curious pattern! Generally, the key to the away/home dynamics as such isn't so much "Here's my tactic". It's dynamic match management, which the AI engages in. At home AI is far more likely to push for a win. So identifying whether the big issue is either taking the lead away or not being able to take it to the 90 minutes mark may be a bonus. This goes for generally any version of FM. AI has simple means of trying to get back into a game. They also have simple means to protect scorelines (as an example, a simple one outlined by SI staff more recent at the end of the post). This is more of a general musing, the good detailed advice will come. But this just reminded me of a similar discussion I had with somebody.

[Snorks]

I wouldn't make too many changes in one hot to be honest, and  I certainly wouldn't change it for home fixtures. As Svenc said, it would be interesting to know how and when you are losing the games away.

So, let's assume you play Salzburg at home using that tactic, you win, 2-0. You play Salzburg away, your scouts tell you they are going to use the same formation, the same players etc. Would you change anything with your tactic?

I would, at the very least go from standard to Counter.

Depending on how the first game went, maybe bring left WB back to FB on support and/or my AP-A on to AP-S in the centre and possibly the AMR to support duty as well. That would do for kick off.

 

No drastic changes, just a little more cautious with the ball and watch the game closely for opposition weaknesses/strengths. 

 

[summatsupeer]

Well it looks like you struggle to keep a clean sheet so thats what i'd focus on.

Looking at your instructions:

• Control - Starts pushed up and a bit more pressing
• Much Higher Line
• Close Down More
• Tighter Marking
• Get Stuck In

This will result in a high pressure system with a lot of risk.  Your teams pushed up and closing down high.  Marking is tight which is good to prevent passes to that players feet, but requires mobility to not be dropped if the player makes a run.  Then you have the players flying into tackles, if they miss it will cause a knock on effect.  When you lose the ball players are possibly far away from there defensive position as you also allow players freedom to roam and express themselves.

I know a few names and know they aren't the most hard working type of players so how much pressure do you get to allow that high line and tight marking?

[pheelf]

What exactly do you want help with?

You have 11 Team instructions + those associated with the Control mentality + PIs. I'd be absolutely amazed if you knew exactly what you are telling your team to do. Which is the fundamental point, if you don't know what you're trying to achieve then how can anybody else help you to achieve it?

What is the vision behind the tactic?

What are you observing in the away matches that differ from the home games? 

I think you need to be able to answer those questions before anybody will be able to help.

[Bluebird123]

10 hours ago, pheelf said:

What exactly do you want help with?

 

It's quite obvious isn't it? Why do some people on here act so hostile to people who are asking for help.

Anyway OP, you are trying too many TIs in conjecture with the control mentality. Much higher D line plus control will see your D line at its highest possible setting, I'd take that off as all you're doing is inviting attacks. Ask yourself is your team really good enough to try and dominate teams away from home, if the answer is no try and go back to basics for the away games. Try and be tighter and more conservative 

[pheelf]

34 minutes ago, Bluebird123 said:

It's quite obvious isn't it? Why do some people on here act so hostile to people who are asking for help.

2

If it came across as hostile then that wasn't my intention but then again all I did was ask what specifically the OP wanted help with. The problem is that there isn't enough information in the OP to know. Posting results and a tactic which he stated he frequently changed isn't really much to go on. 

The best advice I can think of for the OP is to strip back some of the complexity of the tactic and define a vision of how you want your team to play. Then observe until you have a better understanding of how it translates onto the pitch. Once you have a good understanding of your system then you will be more able to identify issues and resolve them. As it stands you're just changing things and hoping for the best which understandably has left you feeling frustrated.  

[fraeyke]

17 hours ago, pheelf said:

If it came across as hostile then that wasn't my intention but then again all I did was ask what specifically the OP wanted help with. The problem is that there isn't enough information in the OP to know. Posting results and a tactic which he stated he frequently changed isn't really much to go on. 

The best advice I can think of for the OP is to strip back some of the complexity of the tactic and define a vision of how you want your team to play. Then observe until you have a better understanding of how it translates onto the pitch. Once you have a good understanding of your system then you will be more able to identify issues and resolve them. As it stands you're just changing things and hoping for the best which understandably has left you feeling frustrated.  

Sorry for the late reply..

I have been kinda busy.
Allready thanks to everyone for the replies.

The intention of asking for help was: To check if I could be a bit more carefull in my tacs. Especially away from home.
Or if anyone had experience with this phenomenon and knew how to handle it.

The posting of my tactic was to show wich one I am using and wich philosophy I'm trying to keep: quick press and ball circulation.
I did not think it beeing usefull to show wich other tacts I used because it was a lot and all of them equally unsuccesfull.

I've been a bit more succesfull with my away games later. I did tone down the TI's a bit and addes 'press much less' with my 2 CD's and DM. Still i notice a bit to much breaks behind the defence from the opp so I need to overthink this again.

 

[Rashidi]

On 18/05/2018 at 01:47, fraeyke said:

Hi,

I'm playing Schalke and after taking over last year i was able te play champions.
This year however, for some reason I just can't seem to win any away games.

My home form has been excellent so far.

 

This is the tactic im generaly using:

Altough I have tried many different approaches, tactics, teamtalks,...
I just keep on losing.

I noticed that on away games I have much more difficulties close marking the opposition( also tried loose marking), the players make way more errors (tried low presurre team talks)

I'm really stuck and clueless what to do atm..

Any help would be welcome!

When I looked at your tactic, it made me think about the fundamental success factors for this game.

Nearly every successful player at this game, at least the ones who can twist and turn and tweak their way to success, nearly each one of them can tell you exactly why they chose to use a specific team instruction. The really good players will be able to look at a transition on the pitch and make a decent educated guess on why a specific player may not have been covered defensively.

When I looked at your tactic I saw a slew of Tis. When I play at home or away, I normally have a strategy to ...score a goal, to control the game and then to close out a game. Do you? What is your plan with your system? If you expect to do all that with your current system then thats the reason why you can't win away.

Excuse me for being blunt, but I am hoping to get you to question why you use those specific Tis within the system you have, and what you expect them to do. If you can understand that, and can answer those questions yourself, chances are, you will then be able to figure out why you can't win away.

[fraeyke]

17 minutes ago, Rashidi said:

When I looked at your tactic, it made me think about the fundamental success factors for this game.

Nearly every successful player at this game, at least the ones who can twist and turn and tweak their way to success, nearly each one of them can tell you exactly why they chose to use a specific team instruction. The really good players will be able to look at a transition on the pitch and make a decent educated guess on why a specific player may not have been covered defensively.

When I looked at your tactic I saw a slew of Tis. When I play at home or away, I normally have a strategy to ...score a goal, to control the game and then to close out a game. Do you? What is your plan with your system? If you expect to do all that with your current system then thats the reason why you can't win away.

Well my main idea is to pass the ball trough the opp defense.
furthermore i want to press the opp and force them to make a mistake.

With these 2 main ideas i can group the TI's as following:

Control
Fluid
work ball in the box
Play narrower
be more expresive
Roam from position
Lower tempo

For the shorter  passing play

Closing down more
Get stuck in
Use tighter marking
Much hugher D-line
Prevent short GK distribution

For the high press

When i noticed losing games i should have won I tried changing the ideas.
I tried sitting back a bit more.

Thus Changed the mentality to balanced/counter
Removed roam and be more expressive
Closed down less, much higher d-line removed.
 

But this did not help me.
Also adjustig the roles did not work as intended.

But i firmly belived that in most away games, you do not have to change A LOT in order to be succesfull.

This where for me the routes to goal are (arrows) and where i inteded to stop the opp (stoplines).

 

I do not consider myself to be a top player of FM, thats why I ask for help on the forums.. :-)

[HUNT3R]

Just now, fraeyke said:

Control
Fluid
work ball in the box
Play narrower

 

Closing down more
Get stuck in
Use tighter marking

Much hugher D-line
Lower tempo
Prevent short GK distribution

The question wasn't about what your TIs were... it was about WHY they were your TIs.

 

[fraeyke]

2 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

The question wasn't about what your TIs were... it was about WHY they were your TIs.

 

I wasn't finished yet.. :-)

[Rashidi]

8 minutes ago, fraeyke said:

:

Control
Fluid
work ball in the box
Play narrower
be more expresive
Roam from position
Lower tempo

For the shorter  passing play

Closing down more
Get stuck in
Use tighter marking
Much hugher D-line
Prevent short GK distribution

For the high press

 

I am just going to isolate these two groups to illustrate my point.

You have a Winger on Attack and you are playing Narrower with a lower tempo? How does that help you with shorter passing play.

In the second group you are playing a much higher defensive line, with a fluid setup ON A LOW TEMPO, away from home, with closing down more, and some aggressive duties in the backline, how does that help you defensively. 

My point is that your starting assumptions on how those Tis are meant to help you achieve what you want aren't helping, cos you are dumb lucking your way to success. My advice, remove all the Tis and start understanding what would happen when you use them.

I mean, that combo Roam from position with a lower tempo, in an aggressive set. up with a high defensive line, makes no sense at all. You have aggressive roles and duties that you are using, but you are basically telling your team to slow the game down? and then roam from position? And all the time do that without focusing play down the flanks? and you are using a winger on attack?  The combination of these with the roles and duties you are using, suggest that you need to take a step back and understand why you are using them cos you don't know what they are doing.

[Rashidi]

I will use this example, we are a poor side, newly promoted and the worst side in the land, we shouldn't' even be playing against teams like arsenal, but here we are. So I know what we are like, we started the game on standard fluid, same setup. We scored a goal, so I changed the roles of the two backs to DFB to hold onto the lead at the 43rd min of the first half. Now we are in the second half, so I decide I don't want so many players trying to control the game, so I switch to standard structured, cos I know I won't be committing so many resources to counters.

Now my roles are relatively simple, cos I know that my DCB will hoof it without thinking and I am really hoping that if it goes long it lands at my DLF who has the skill to hold on to it and lay it off to a Winger if he is close by otherwise he will look for the poacher. In most cases when we want to recycle possession it will go through my HB with my 2 CDs so there is no pressure. However to get what I want, ie, these nice counters, I am also hitting balls into space. We want to compress the playable space, but my defenders aren't very fast so I will tell them only to play with an offside trap. However if they were fast we would push it up, but they can't cos they have average positioning with low acceleration and concentration. In the meantime I am asking my two strikers to play a high block and keep applying pressure on their backline with prevent short gk distribution, in fact our goal came precisely from that TI.  I will remove Work ball into box, now cos we have a lead and I am not bothered with possession numbers, however if we want to keep the ball away from them we will return to fluid and use WBIB.

Here I know exactly how my Tis work with the roles and duties I have chosen.

[fraeyke]

4 minutes ago, Rashidi said:

You have a Winger on Attack and you are playing Narrower with a lower tempo? How does that help you with shorter passing play.

I know that a winger needs space, but doenst his PI make him wider anyway?

4 minutes ago, Rashidi said:

In the second group you are playing a much higher defensive line, with a fluid setup ON A LOW TEMPO, away from home, with closing down more, and some aggressive duties in the backline, how does that help you defensively. 

I dont get what a low tempo had to do with the defensive side of things?
Isn't the tempo for when you have the ball?

 

6 minutes ago, Rashidi said:

My point is that your starting assumptions on how those Tis are meant to help you achieve what you want aren't helping, cos you are dumb lucking your way to success. My advice, remove all the Tis and start understanding what would happen when you use them.

I mean, that combo Roam from position with a lower tempo, in an aggressive set. up with a high defensive line, makes no sense at all. You have aggressive roles and duties that you are using, but you are basically telling your team to slow the game down? and then roam from position? And all the time do that without focusing play down the flanks? and you are using a winger on attack?  The combination of these with the roles and duties you are using, suggest that you need to take a step back and understand why you are using them cos you don't know what they are doing.

Considering the comments i'm sure im dumb lucking my way to succes
It seems that the TI's are still anything but clear to me.
And that pretty frustrating, just because i spend a looong time trying to figure out how to play. For this i try to look for info on this and other forums, youtube or websites like "guide to fm".

I've been playing since Champ man 97-98 and still i'm wandering clueless..

[Rashidi]

2 minutes ago, fraeyke said:

I know that a winger needs space, but doenst his PI make him wider anyway?

I dont get what a low tempo had to do with the defensive side of things?
Isn't the tempo for when you have the ball?

 

Considering the comments i'm sure im dumb lucking my way to succes
It seems that the TI's are still anything but clear to me.
And that pretty frustrating, just because i spend a looong time trying to figure out how to play. For this i try to look for info on this and other forums, youtube or websites like "guide to fm".

I've been playing since Champ man 97-98 and still i'm wandering clueless..

That low tempo doesn't help you defensively cos you are asking your players to try more risky stuff, but if you look at your duties esp the right flank they are fairly attacking so that will influence your transitions and with your aggressive role selection and aggressive closing down settings, asking your players to play on a low tempo could just see your side lose the ball and that does not help defensively. What I suggest you do, cos the tactic obviously works in some sense, just not away from home....

Go make a second version of the tactic, and start thinking bout each TI, simplify them and keep them minimal where you can, in fact just take most of them off, and see how you do with each one. That will help you learn. Most of the websites out there have useless information anywhere.

[fraeyke]

6 minutes ago, Rashidi said:

I will use this example, we are a poor side, newly promoted and the worst side in the land, we shouldn't' even be playing against teams like arsenal, but here we are. So I know what we are like, we started the game on standard fluid, same setup. We scored a goal, so I changed the roles of the two backs to DFB to hold onto the lead at the 43rd min of the first half. Now we are in the second half, so I decide I don't want so many players trying to control the game, so I switch to standard structured, cos I know I won't be committing so many resources to counters.

Now my roles are relatively simple, cos I know that my DCB will hoof it without thinking and I am really hoping that if it goes long it lands at my DLF who has the skill to hold on to it and lay it off to a Winger if he is close by otherwise he will look for the poacher. In most cases when we want to recycle possession it will go through my HB with my 2 CDs so there is no pressure. However to get what I want, ie, these nice counters, I am also hitting balls into space. We want to compress the playable space, but my defenders aren't very fast so I will tell them only to play with an offside trap. However if they were fast we would push it up, but they can't cos they have average positioning with low acceleration and concentration. In the meantime I am asking my two strikers to play a high block and keep applying pressure on their backline with prevent short gk distribution, in fact our goal came precisely from that TI.  I will remove Work ball into box, now cos we have a lead and I am not bothered with possession numbers, however if we want to keep the ball away from them we will return to fluid and use WBIB.

Here I know exactly how my Tis work with the roles and duties I have chosen.

Yh it all seems so logical when you explain it. Also on your youtube channel.
 

When i'm putting on TI's it is also with an idea behind it. To bad it seems to be the wrong ones.
Myself i would never risk playing an offside trap with slow defenders. If the trap failes they could never pick up that player.

My idea from your formation would be that the central midfielder would always be alone against the opp? Since the HB DM would play way lower?

[theonets]

Arsene recently had a similar problem. Though I don't think resigning will help you out much.

[fraeyke]

2 minutes ago, Rashidi said:

That low tempo doesn't help you defensively cos you are asking your players to try more risky stuff, but if you look at your duties esp the right flank they are fairly attacking so that will influence your transitions and with your aggressive role selection and aggressive closing down settings, asking your players to play on a low tempo could just see your side lose the ball and that does not help defensively. What I suggest you do, cos the tactic obviously works in some sense, just not away from home....

Go make a second version of the tactic, and start thinking bout each TI, simplify them and keep them minimal where you can, in fact just take most of them off, and see how you do with each one. That will help you learn. Most of the websites out there have useless information anywhere.

Ok I will do that..

Yh i can imagine that most websites' info is wrong. But wich ones are correct then?
I really would like a source of info that eg: tells me the pro's and con's of a TI, and wich attributes a player needs to be able to be succesfull.

[Rashidi]

3 minutes ago, fraeyke said:

When i'm putting on TI's it is also with an idea behind it. To bad it seems to be the wrong ones.

Most of your thought processes showed that you have a general idea, it's just you were using too many. For example, lets step back and think for a moment. When was the last time you saw a real football team play an aggressive high block and then switch to low tempo when they had the ball? 

When you think about the Tis in a simple way they start to make sense. Now you are telling your team to play narrower, but you have a winger on attack. He does have a PI that says stay wide, you are right, but,.,.....the rest of the team need to look for him, that shout affects the whole team. So they may not think he is is a priority. So it affects your system. 

Away from home your right flank has a player punching through form midfield with a winger on attack down that flank. It is a good idea, risky, but what happens when you lose the ball? Instead, why don't you remove that aggressive closing down more and tackle harder, instead just tell the front 3 players to do that aggressive pressure. And then systematically think who else should close down more. Now instead of the whole team doing that, you are assigning that duty instead. Same goes with tackle harder, which is stuck in. You don't want your centrally placed players to pick up yellows in the 2nd minute and become pylons for 88. mins.

I generally find that stepping back and thinking about them usually helps, you are not far off.  You have the idea of how you want to play, you just need to be more methodical in how you want to get there.

[fraeyke]

Just now, Rashidi said:

Most of your thought processes showed that you have a general idea, it's just you were using too many. For example, lets step back and think for a moment. When was the last time you saw a real football team play an aggressive high block and then switch to low tempo when they had the ball?

I'm thinking Barcelona. They usually pressed high up the pitch and then played slow combo football. Mainly under Pep

2 minutes ago, Rashidi said:

When you think about the Tis in a simple way they start to make sense. Now you are telling your team to play narrower, but you have a winger on attack. He does have a PI that says stay wide, you are right, but,.,.....the rest of the team need to look for him, that shout affects the whole team. So they may not think he is is a priority. So it affects your system. 

Away from home your right flank has a player punching through form midfield with a winger on attack down that flank. It is a good idea, risky, but what happens when you lose the ball? Instead, why don't you remove that aggressive closing down more and tackle harder, instead just tell the front 3 players to do that aggressive pressure. And then systematically think who else should close down more. Now instead of the whole team doing that, you are assigning that duty instead. Same goes with tackle harder, which is stuck in. You don't want your centrally placed players to pick up yellows in the 2nd minute and become pylons for 88. mins.

I generally find that stepping back and thinking about them usually helps, you are not far off.  You have the idea of how you want to play, you just need to be more methodical in how you want to get there.

I will definatly use the info you are giving me!
Maybe I am sometimes thinking a bit to much that TI's will do what I want, when PI's sometimes could do a better job.

Thx a lot

[Tom8983]

18 hours ago, fraeyke said:

I'm thinking Barcelona. They usually pressed high up the pitch and then played slow combo football. Mainly under Pep

You think so? I'd have said that they played with a high tempo (they passed the ball around very quickly), but on a lower mentality, like Standard, with shorter passing, WBIB, and Retain possession.

[fraeyke]

Just now, Tom8983 said:

You think so? I'd have said that they played with a high tempo (they passed the ball around very quickly), but on a lower mentality, like Standard, with shorter passing, WBIB, and Retain possession.

I remember there being lots of discussion about the barca tiki taka tactic back in the day..
 

It has been proven that i'm not a very good judge of TI's.. but imo they played low risk up untill they approached the opp box..  i always tought low risk= slow tempo but i could be wrong

[Tom8983]

2 minutes ago, fraeyke said:

  i always tought low risk= slow tempo but i could be wrong

I mean, I'm no tactical genius either lol, but as I understand it there's more than one way to skin a cat. Retain possession, Work ball into box, shorter passing, and lowering the mentality all lower risk too, or so I'm led to believe.

[summatsupeer]

I think the best way to think of TI's and PI's is your refining the instructions that the Roles+Duties give combined with the base settings of the Mentality. 

The more TI's and PI's you throw at them, the more specific your being. 

The more specific you get, the more you have to be sure that making players focus on that element and limiting another is going to work.  Can they still combine well, are your players good at it etc.

If your being very specific and trying to use that tactic in all games, how sure are you it will work against all the different tactics and teams you'll face.  The old "we're good enough for them to adapt to us" stubbornness could be at play, you don't have to completely change your style and principles, just tweaks to them can make the difference.