Coulthard's Jaw Posted May 16, 2018 Share Posted May 16, 2018 Quote Morgenpost, meanwhile, asked on Wednesday, “With their Meeting with the controversial Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, the German national team [players] Ilkay Gundogan and Mesut Ozil have scored an own goal. “We have made the two realise that it was not a happy one”, said national coach Joachim Löw, Gündogan and Özil yesterday, nevertheless, for the World Cup squad has been nominated. He has made the right decision?” In favour of banning them from the World Cup, Christian Burmeister explains his reasoning. “If a national player makes an election campaign for the NPD [a far-right German polictical party], he has nothing to fear from the DFB and Jogi Löw except a little hot air. “Because Özil and Gündogan have done something similar: campaigning for a man who pursues dissidents, tens of thousands locked away without trial, goes on conquest campaigns and wants to rise to the sole ruler. “That’s exactly what the NPD dreams of. “Of course you can defend the two with the argument that they did not know what they were doing. They are just naive footballers. But especially with Gündogan, the high school graduate from Gelsenkirchen, this is hard to imagine. “The two are admired role models for millions. Especially for many children and adolescents. They were considered a prime example of successful integration. “What is the actual message, if both of them are allowed to pay homage to an autocrat and his totalitarian ideology with impunity? “The DFB has missed the chance to show that it is serious about the often-preached values of tolerance and fair play. “And Matthäus, Effenberg or Uli Stein are due to lesser mistakes from the DFB team. “Özil and Gündogan have not earned a lifelong ban. But a break for a World Cup length anyway! “Then maybe they would also find time to talk to Deniz Yücel.” Quote Turkish-origin Cem Özdemir, a prominent German Green MP and sharp critic of Mr Erdogan, attacked Gündogan's "my President" message. "The federal president of a German international footballer is called Frank-Walter Steinmeier, the chancellor is Angela Merkel and the parliament is called the German Bundestag," he said. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wiggins Top Boys Posted May 16, 2018 Share Posted May 16, 2018 Erdogan is a tosser, but politics shouldn't have a bearing on this sort of thing Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunmaN1905 Posted May 16, 2018 Share Posted May 16, 2018 If I was German, I wouldn't want them to play. That guy is one of the most disgusting people in the world right now, a modern day dictator. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Cartman Posted May 16, 2018 Share Posted May 16, 2018 Germany should be banned from the World Cup if they're dropped for political reasons Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heartwork Posted May 16, 2018 Share Posted May 16, 2018 Gundogan referring to Erdogan as "my president" could construed as saying he has no loyalty to Germany and if that's the case then they shouldn't play him. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Citizen Sandman Posted May 16, 2018 Share Posted May 16, 2018 No, I want to see Ozil play without having to carry his team. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PMLF Posted May 16, 2018 Share Posted May 16, 2018 If they are good enough, they should be called up, regardless of their political opinions. If we were to follow this logic (not calling up players based on political opinions), Sócrates would have missed the 1982 World Cup since he was a strong supporter of Cuban dictator Fidel Castro. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
deltablue Posted May 16, 2018 Share Posted May 16, 2018 No they shouldn't, just as PMLF says. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bunkerossian Posted May 16, 2018 Share Posted May 16, 2018 If they stand behind their words, then they should play for Turkey. Obviously democratic rulers aren't important to these 2. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
santy001 Posted May 16, 2018 Share Posted May 16, 2018 I mean as far as I'm understanding, they met the leader of the country they're from. Do they have to denounce any and all familial ties to the countries once they signed up to play for the German team? Or can Germany pick, choose and cherry-pick what they should give up? The decision to play for Germany was presumably a sporting one, rather than a political one. So why try to make it political? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunmaN1905 Posted May 16, 2018 Share Posted May 16, 2018 That guy literally removed Hakan Sukur from every historic book and stripped him of Turkish citizenship. He can't even return to the country. Enes Kanter, best Turkish basketball player playing in NBA right now had his family arrested after he said Erdogan was a dictator. There's an arrest warrant issued for him and was stripped of his citizenship. His family denounced him. And then those two idiots take pictures with him because they're brainless duds that don't know anything. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulHartman71 Posted May 16, 2018 Share Posted May 16, 2018 Probably not the smartest PR move on their part, but dropping them from the World Cup? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redshift Posted May 16, 2018 Share Posted May 16, 2018 Do they have family in Turkey? Perhaps they were worried of repercussions? Forget about a couple of footballers. It's irrelevant when Rolls Royce delegates discuss building a 5th Gen fighter jet for Turkey and them remaining in NATO. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
georginho_juventusygr Posted May 16, 2018 Share Posted May 16, 2018 Germany are fine without them anyway. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JD nawrat Posted May 16, 2018 Share Posted May 16, 2018 4 hours ago, PaulHartman71 said: Probably not the smartest PR move on their part, but dropping them from the World Cup? This. What @PMLF also said above is spot on too. Who cares about their political beliefs? As long as they're not preaching it to others and demanding we follow. Which they aren't. Let them play football ffs. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roy Race 9 Posted May 16, 2018 Share Posted May 16, 2018 1 hour ago, georginho_juventusygr said: Germany are fine without them anyway. this 100% always advocated wanting to see Draxler get the ozil position in the team and in CM we are very strong its a shame this has happened and as someone else have said perhaps if they feel this strongly about Turkey perhaps they should have played for them a ban not for me, will leave a sour taste but if either bang the winning goal in I will be celebrating Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulHartman71 Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 The idea that they can’t show any national pride for Turkey because they play for Germany is so dumb. Had a mate at Uni who had an English mum and an Indian dad. He was for all intensive purposes English, never even knew he was part Indian until his Dad came to pick him up at Christmas (which, yes, he celebrates). Whenever football or rugby was on he was as much an England fan as everyone else, but as soon as there was cricket on he was the biggest Indian fan you’ve ever seen. Sure some would say something like HURRR WHY DONT YOU SUPPORT INDIA IN FOOTBALL THEN IF YOU LOVE INDIA SO MUCH?!?! But who cares. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunmaN1905 Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 It's not about Turkey, it's about calling a dictator my president. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
m_fenton Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 We let Lampard play for England and his politic allegiances are vile... ( for @Crispypaul, just in case) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
westy8chimp Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 We let John Terry captain the side... Woodgate, Bowyer etc ----------- also shows German football team is about as German as the England cricket team are English Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spurs08 Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 They should be dropped. If international football isn't about representing your nation then what the hell is the point? We may as well just let the big nations buy whoever they want to play for them if we're going to have two people who evidently see themselves as Turks play for Germany. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kain Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 There's a bit more to this story than seems to be reported in some of the articles I've seen, it's more than just them showing support to Erdogan or pride about their Turkish background. It's fairly well known that there's a lot of Turkish people living in Germany, or at least whose family is originally from Turkey. During the German elections last year, Erdogan actively encouraged the Turkish people in Germany not to vote for Angela Merkel's party, or the SPD (the other main party) or the greens, calling them enemies of Turkey. There's an actual quote from him along the lines of "For all of our citizens in Germany, this is a struggle of honour". Obviously Erdogan trying to interfere with Germany's elections in this way wasn't something the main politicans were happy with. Earlier this year, Erdogan announced plans to campaign in European countries ahead of the Turkish election, but has been banned from campaigning in Germany (and other countries), and has been accused of trying to exploit the Turkish communities here. By posing for photos like this, Ozil and Gundogan are being seen as actively supporting Erdogan in his campaign for the Turkish people living in Germany. It's also hit a bit of a nerve as they've both been shown as examples of successful integration in Germany and yet calling Erdogan "my president" and going against this ban against political campaigning is showing the opposite. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunmaN1905 Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 Forgot to mention that apparenlty Can refused to meet him. There's at least some of them who understand basic stuff. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JD nawrat Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 2 hours ago, westy8chimp said: We let John Terry captain the side... Woodgate, Bowyer etc ----------- also shows German football team is about as German as the England cricket team are English Nobody is under any illusions of the contrary regarding Germany though, surely? Even the likes of Podolski and Klose are Polish/German. Can, Ozil and Gundogan all Turkish/German. Mario Gomez Spanish/German. Just like most international teams, there's plenty of hybrid nationality players. England have the likes of Sterling who wasn't even born in England. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
theonets Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 17 hours ago, kingrobbo said: this 100% always advocated wanting to see Draxler get the ozil position in the team and in CM we are very strong its a shame this has happened and as someone else have said perhaps if they feel this strongly about Turkey perhaps they should have played for them a ban not for me, will leave a sour taste but if either bang the winning goal in I will be celebrating I don't rate Ozil as high as most Arsenal fans, but it's bonkers to think Draxler's anywhere near as good Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roy Race 9 Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 2 hours ago, theonets said: I don't rate Ozil as high as most Arsenal fans, but it's bonkers to think Draxler's anywhere near as good Draxler would do a great job at 10 Allowing Reus and sane to play wide Ozil is class for us but I believe the team would be better this way and more dynamic Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunmaN1905 Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 Honestly, I think that Muller is by far the most useful as the second striker. Something like Reus-Muller-Draxler would be great, with Werner upfront. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
eldeniro Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 12 hours ago, PaulHartman71 said: Had a mate at Uni who had an English mum and an Indian dad. He was for all intensive purposes English, never even knew he was part Indian until his Dad came to pick him up at Christmas (which, yes, he celebrates). he what Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnhughthom Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 Clearly means that whenever he thought about it in-depth he was English, but if he just answered off the cuff he was Indian. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulHartman71 Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hodgy Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 On 16/05/2018 at 11:29, Wiggins' Young Boys said: Erdogan is a tosser, but politics shouldn't have a bearing on this sort of thing Agree! On 16/05/2018 at 13:15, Barry Cartman said: Germany should be banned from the World Cup if they're dropped for political reasons Agree! On 16/05/2018 at 15:37, PMLF said: If they are good enough, they should be called up, regardless of their political opinions. If we were to follow this logic (not calling up players based on political opinions), Sócrates would have missed the 1982 World Cup since he was a strong supporter of Cuban dictator Fidel Castro. Agree! No they shouldn't be dropped, I assume everyone else thinks that too as I haven't read beyond PMLF's post... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
decapitated Posted May 20, 2018 Share Posted May 20, 2018 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-44187304 Quote Two German footballers of Turkish origin have met President Frank-Walter Steinmeier after criticism of photos showing them with Turkey's president. Turkey's governing AK Party released the photos of them with Recep Tayyip Erdogan ahead of elections there. Some German politicians said it seemed Mesut Özil and Ilkay Gündogan were endorsing Mr Erdogan - which they deny. Germany has criticised the Turkish leader's crackdown on political dissent following a failed coup. Özil, who plays for Arsenal, and Manchester City player Gündogan gave Mr Erdogan signed shirts at an event in London last week. Both players are preparing to play in next month's Fifa World Cup in Russia, where Germany is among the favourites. Turkey did not qualify. The German football federation (DFB) had also criticised the pair. "The two players contacted us and the DFB and wanted to clear this issue up," Germany coach Joachim Loew told reporters. They met President Frank-Walter Steinmeier at the presidential palace in Berlin. "It was important to both of them to clear up the misunderstandings," said President Steinmeier. He said that Özil had told him he stood by Germany, while Gündogan affirmed that "Germany is clearly my country and my team". "Both assured us that they had not wanted to send any political signal with that action," DFB President Reinhard Grindel said. "They also stated that they stand for our values on and off the pitch and that they identify with them." Mr Erdogan, in power for the past 15 years, is seeking re-election in a snap poll on 24 June. His Islamist-rooted AK Party has cracked down hard on opponents, especially since the July 2016 coup attempt by military officers. Turkish police have arrested more than 50,000 people accused of links to US-based Islamic cleric Fethullah Gulen or to Kurdish separatists. They include opposition activists, journalists, teachers, lawyers and other public servants. Mr Erdogan has also purged the military, police and judiciary, putting many state officials on trial. After the criticism of last week's meeting, Gündogan issued a statement defending himself, Özil and a third player of Turkish origin Cenk Tosun over their meeting with Mr Erdogan. They met on the sidelines of an event at a Turkish foundation that helps Turkish students, he explained. "Are we supposed to be impolite to the president of our families' homeland?" he asked. "Whatever justified criticism there might be, we decided on a gesture of politeness, out of respect for the office of president and for our Turkish roots." Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coulthard's Jaw Posted June 9, 2018 Author Share Posted June 9, 2018 Quote Ilkay Gundogan was booed by Germany fans as the team avoided a late scare to beat Saudi Arabia in their final World Cup warm-up game, in Leverkusen. The Manchester City midfielder was jeered as he came on, and every time he touched the ball, after meeting Turkish leader Recep Tayyip Erdogan in May and calling him "my president". Gundogan and Mesut Ozil, who also met Turkey's president in London last month, were both criticised by the German FA at the time and booed by Germany fans during a 2-1 defeat in Austria on Saturday. Arsenal midfielder Ozil missed the Saudi Arabia game with a slight knee problem - although he is not a doubt for the World Cup - leaving Gundogan to bear the fans' anger on his own. Manager Joachim Low looked irritated at the reaction of the crowd as he brought on Gundogan - who is of Turkish descent - and urged them to instead cheer the player. But the City midfielder was jeered every time he touched the ball, including when he had two close-range efforts saved moments after coming on. "The fact that a national player is booed like that helps nobody," Low told ARD. "What should Ilkay do now? "He took a picture, OK, but he has addressed it with the press and underlined his support for German values. "The topic has to be ticked off." Gundogan said earlier this week he has struggled with the reaction and he is "privileged to have grown up in Germany" despite his "strong connection to Turkey". German football fans are awful. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Constantine Posted June 9, 2018 Share Posted June 9, 2018 16 minutes ago, Coulthard's Jaw said: German football fans are awful. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nordan Posted June 9, 2018 Share Posted June 9, 2018 Feeling Turkish at heart is fine, showing support for a dictator is not. I'd drop them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunmaN1905 Posted June 9, 2018 Share Posted June 9, 2018 I'd boo him, too. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PMLF Posted June 9, 2018 Share Posted June 9, 2018 49 minutes ago, Nordan said: Feeling Turkish at heart is fine, showing support for a dictator is not. I'd drop them. Surely from a national team point of view, feeling Turkish is worse, they should feel German, not Turkish. If they feel Turkish, they should play for Turkey's national team, not Germany. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nordan Posted June 9, 2018 Share Posted June 9, 2018 1 minute ago, PMLF said: Surely from a national team point of view, feeling Turkish is worse, they should feel German, not Turkish. If they feel Turkish, they should play for Turkey's national team, not Germany. Turkey is where their family roots are, I don't see a problem if they have a fondness for their former homeland. The players brought politics into the situation though, that's what I have a problem with. Lucky for them I'm not Löw. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PMLF Posted June 9, 2018 Share Posted June 9, 2018 Just now, Nordan said: Turkey is where their family roots are, I don't see a problem if they have a fondness for their former homeland. The players brought politics into the situation though, that's what I have a problem with. Lucky for them I'm not Löw. They shouldn't have divided loyalties. They have a life outside football, it's expected they will have political opinions too but as mentioned before, I wouldn't refrain from calling them up because of that, otherwise, as mentioned, I would have had to leave Sócrates out of Brazil's national team if I were manager Telê Santana, as Sócrates was a big supporter of Cuba's socialist dictatorship. Or someone like Buffon would have to be left out of Italy's national team because of his (alleged) Fascist sympathies. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nordan Posted June 9, 2018 Share Posted June 9, 2018 1 minute ago, PMLF said: They shouldn't have divided loyalties. They have a life outside football, it's expected they will have political opinions too but as mentioned before, I wouldn't refrain from calling them up because of that, otherwise, as mentioned, I would have had to leave Sócrates out of Brazil's national team if I were manager Telê Santana, as Sócrates was a big supporter of Cuba's socialist dictatorship. Or someone like Buffon would have to be left out of Italy's national team because of his (alleged) Fascist sympathies. I don't think they have divided loyalties, I think they want to give their all for Germany on the pitch. I don't expect people who move to a new country to expell all feelings for their (parents) former country, I do expect them not to flag support for a dictator and drag politics into football. Socrates was Brazilian, not quite the same imo. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PMLF Posted June 9, 2018 Share Posted June 9, 2018 1 minute ago, Nordan said: I don't think they have divided loyalties, I think they want to give their all for Germany on the pitch. I don't expect people who move to a new country to expell all feelings for their (parents) former country, I do expect them not to flag support for a dictator and drag politics into football. Socrates was Brazilian, not quite the same imo. I have no doubt they give their all but if it's for Germany or for themselves, it's hard to say. But the same applies to every other player, even those without an immigrant background. As for Sócrates, he was hypocritical as he criticized the fairly mild Brazilian military regime, while defending the Castro regime which was a much more repressive regime. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnhughthom Posted June 9, 2018 Share Posted June 9, 2018 3 hours ago, PMLF said: Surely from a national team point of view, feeling Turkish is worse, they should feel German, not Turkish. If they feel Turkish, they should play for Turkey's national team, not Germany. But then they'd never win the World Cup. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
georginho_juventusygr Posted June 9, 2018 Share Posted June 9, 2018 Feeling Turkish isn't the problem. Supporting a dictator is. This is why they are booed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulHartman71 Posted June 10, 2018 Share Posted June 10, 2018 Was Ozil booed too? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony85 Posted June 10, 2018 Share Posted June 10, 2018 He didn't play in the game. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
git2thachoppa Posted June 10, 2018 Share Posted June 10, 2018 From what I've read on it, the Germans and politicians' problem isn't even really about who they're posing with and what he's done, but that the players said something like "my president". Backlash has included how they're "German" and thus should only consider the German president "their president", even though they are in fact Turkish as well as German. If that's really the case then it's just ignorance from people who only know what it's like to have one nationality, not 2+. Like when Desailly got insults for showing support for Ghana in 2010. Just needs a bit of education, which some people are open-minded to thankfully. It's like a man trying to understand what being a woman is like or trying to think what it's like to be savant. Can't really imagine how someone else was born or made, so you have to accept it when someone explains it to you rather than say "periods can't hurt that much - I have nose bleeds and just get on with it". Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nordan Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 What is it with footballers and presidents? This time, it's Salah. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coulthard's Jaw Posted July 22, 2018 Author Share Posted July 22, 2018 This story ends with Ozil retiring from international football and him releasing a quite extraordinary press statement Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
georginho_juventusygr Posted July 22, 2018 Share Posted July 22, 2018 Still shouldn't have met with Erdoğan. Is finished as a player anyway. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunmaN1905 Posted July 22, 2018 Share Posted July 22, 2018 TL;DR? Btw, there's no way he wrote that amount of text by himself. One of the most overrated players of this generation. At least until everyone realized he's overrated. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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