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Tactical Challenges #2: TIs and PIs

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On 20/05/2018 at 09:25, blue heron said:

I've been trying this with Valencia. A very interesting club to play as: last two years they've finished 12th, while expectations were far higher. According to FM, they should aspire to finish 5th this year, but they don't have much money and they have 5 players in on loan, of which two are key players (Guedes and Kondogbia) and at least one is an important first teamer. They play in La Liga, where two elite teams (Real Madrid and Barcelona) will be very hard to beat for everyone, and Atletico Madrid is also a notch above everyone, with a lot of world-class talent.So finishing fourth would be a good start to my career at Valencia.

 

The team is set up for a 4-4-2 and in real live, they play a narrow, direct 4-4-2. I've tried some different setups to implement this in FM. First, I want to have a compact team, so I wanted to go fluid or very fluid. Directness means higher risk taking, higher tempo and quick vertical balls. So the mentality will be something higher than standard. Given the quality (or lack thereof, compared to the top 3 teams) I'm very hesitant to go above Control, so that where we'll start. The pros of this is that we get higher settings for tempo, defensive line and closing down. On the other hand, by default this also means a higher width, which I don't want. So my first team instruction to add is play much narrower

 

In the first friendlies I set up the team as Valencia play in real life: default back four (FB-CD-CD-FB), a midfield four with Guedes as Inverted Winger, Parejo as playmaker, Kondogbia as defensive screen and Soler on the right as wide midfielder or wide playmaker, and finally two strikers (DLF-AF). Immediately, two things were happening which I needed to remedy. Firstly, in FM I find the positioning without the ball and the closing down of opponents when using two strikers to be very frustrating. They stay on top of the two centre backs and don't contribute much to getting the ball back. So, I've moved one striker back to AMC as shadow striker. With the PI shoot less often, because he was taking too many shots from distance. The other thing happening was that the two central midfielders were on top of each other too much, almost holding hands during the game and continuously closing down the same side of play, leaving a gaping hole on the other side. Also, I wanted Kondogbia to be a screen in front of the defence to enable Parejo to be the main playmaker with a little bit less defensive responsibility. So Kondogbia was moved to DMC. See the final tactic below - I also play with the TI to push higher up, since I do want my players to close down earlier when losing possession. 

 

567160468_Valencia_Overview.thumb.png.42ef1739d092a80767e08c40f45b7c18.png 

 

During the friendlies and the first couple of games, I added some PI's when I saw things happening that I didn't like: the ML has shoot less often, Parejo has more direct passes as I want him to be ambitious in his passing and the goalkeeper has take short kicks as I don't want to lose possession from goal kicks the entire time. If SI finally comes with an instruction to tell keepers to never, ever boot the ball upfield I'd be so happy.

 

For now I see some good football from my team - we can play patiently around teams sitting deep, and we can be devastating on the counter, playing a quick long ball forward and setting up a team mate with a sideways pass or cross. For now, after half a season we're in third place, but it's still tight at the top. As you can see from my fixture list, I lost two matches at the beginning of the season when I was still working on the tactic, and when I lose, it's away from home. So I'm also making some tweaks to play a bit differently away from home.

 

1469495155_LigaSantander_OverviewStages.thumb.png.0d9f54de2d08d07fb1abc234df0fbdbd.png

 

97227127_Valencia_SeniorFixtures.thumb.png.691acbdf969a443d30d94f77102987b6.png

Do you have any PI on Kondogbia?

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7 hours ago, PaddyTaka said:

Do you have any PI on Kondogbia?

No. I've been using him as a holding DM. If you're playing against weaker opposition, you might give him support duty and/or add get forward to his PI's.

Since I couldn't keep Kondogbia, in my second season I'm using a less capable player, who's only good in holding position and destroying opponent's attacks. That the role I want there on the field.

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On 31/05/2018 at 23:02, Gegenklaus said:

Cool to hear. I am playing with Dortmund also using a 4-1-4-1 with a Defensive Forward on support. I really love this role for several reasons: It is naturally a good role to link play - which imo is very much needed for the striker to do in the 4-1-4-1. And the role ask the player to do the simple things - fewer risky passes. It is actually the only striker role on support which does not have More Risky Passes attached and Dribble More. Originally I wanted to use the Complete Forward as I want my striker to roam around, find spaces, plays others in and link the play. But looking at Auba I didnt want him to dribble more. I didnt want him to play more risky passes, but I wanted him to move around like the complete forward does. So I went for the Defensive Forward and really loved it. Now I am starting to experiment using it on Defend Duty to get him even deeper to see How that plays out. That's why I asked. And cool to see the success you are finding and how you keep things really simple. :)

Yep, as far as positioning is concerned he drops quite deep in the build up, but still gets into the opposition box to finish of chances, keeping it simple all the way. Awesome!

Defensively, I almost get a 4-6-0 with a midfield diamond thanks to the DF dropping down. This is another reason why I want a player with lots of pace and work rate. If the players lacks those qualities he just wont get up fast enough to provide an offensive outlet during the attacking transitions.

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*comes out of lurking*

I will have a crack at this. I have just started a new save inspired by @herne79's Attacking and Possession thread, and will attempt to take Serie C/B side Albinoleffe to the promised land of Serie A.

Being a child of the late 80s/early 90s, Italy has always been my footballing spiritual home, so this should be fun.

Having assessed the squad and found I have almost no players capable of playing as an AMR, AML or AMC, but a plethora of players capable of playing as a CM and/or DM, I've decided to go with a 4-1-3-2, which after some experimenting in pre-season, looks like this:

185499579_2018-06-0309_21_59am.thumb.png.db4fe1b6c5f6f6326266166e37cccc3c.png

Much like @herne79 did in his thread, I wanted to shoe-horn in some roles that I've used either rarely or not at all just to make it interesting. The same applies to my choice of mentality - apart from a brief flirtation with it in my 10-season+ FM18 Southampton save, I have never used attacking as my ongoing starting mentality. Ever. And I've been playing this game for a long time.

But going back to the roles, whilst I wanted to squeeze some less oft-used ones in there, I didn't just pick them at random. The MEZs I chose because two of my CM's are capable of playing as MR's and have good crossing attributes and so fit the bill nicely for this role. In fact, a couple of assists so far have come from one of them drifting out to the right-hand edge of the penalty area and dinking in a back-post cross for the TM. Nice. To balance out the MEZ on the right, I chose a FBs behind, and so to balance that out I chose a more adventurous WBs on the left for a little added thrust. The choice of a CAR in the left CM slot was to provide some lateral cover down that side. The only role I chose at random really was the HB. I have no doubt a plain old DMd would have done and that's one role I will definitely play around with over the course of the season. The striker roles I had to play around with in pre-season. I wanted a TM in there because two of the four strikers in my squad are suited to it and it's another role I rarely use, and after some experimenting I settled on pairing the TMs with a DLFs. They both drop deep and dovetail with each other nicely, assisting each other a few times each so far.

The Season So Far

The media predicted we would finish 9th, and my board expect us to finish in the playoff positions. For those unfamiliar with Serie C's rules, that means anywhere from 2nd to 10th. Only the top team go up automatically. Ignoring the pre-season results during which I was experimenting and had fixtures against a few Serie B teams, so far we're doing okay:

1468743473_2018-06-0309_26_56am.thumb.png.f3cd35ee4385ef49cf0f9da0e366a493.png

It's still early days but we and the team above us, A.C. Feralpi Salò, have opened up a small gap at the top of the table, so lets see if we can maintain it. Forza La Celeste!

------------------

EDIT: I forgot to add that as well as the lone TI Retain Possession, I have 3 PI's; Shoot Less Often added to the left and right CM's and the goalkeeper is set to Distribute to Centre-Backs.

Edited by Kevin_M
Small addition

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2 hours ago, Kevin_M said:

It's still early days but we and the team above us, A.C. Feralpi Salò, have opened up a small gap at the top of the table, so lets see if we can maintain it. Forza La Celeste!

A great start :thup:.  Serie C can be a tough place - no money, just one automatic promotion spot, but if you hunt enough there's some good bargain players to be had.  Good luck.

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858132790_RomavLazio_RomaTeamSelectionOverview.thumb.png.2b04408af5fff7346c2f57c04fa8df71.png 

Hi.  I don't think I'm attempting a challenge as such but I am using a tactic with minimal TI and PI so I thought I'd drop it in here.  I made a couple of replies to other people's threads earlier who won't know me so it is good to make some sort of self introduction and share something I've created.

The background is that this is Roma 2nd season.  I've had a bit of a rough time financially and the squad is in transition.  A couple of the players you'll see in the screenie above are loaned in even such as Vallejo and Mayoral.  For added context we are currently 3rd after 14 games and 4 points off being top. 

TI

Work into box.  It's the only one in use currently.  I'm not someone that always reaches for this instruction but we aren't much of a team for crosses and it helps the team wait for a better opening.

PI

None.  Not even goalkeeper distribution.  My closest consideration for this one was the AM- support role.  I considered roaming and/or move into channels but declined both in the end not wanting to compromise the support striker or get in the way of that Mezzala role.

Roles

I have literally tried to structure the roles themselves in an attempt to avoid flat, straight lines.  I've also thought carefully about the positioning of that Mezzala as mentioned above.  Elsewhere I probably don't need to use ball playing defenders but that hasn't caused much harm.  Looking at this now its actually quite an attacking set up overall despite team mentality and shape.  Perhaps therein lies some balance?

Strengths

Defensively sound.  Conceded just 8 goals from 14 matches played.  The lowest in Serie A.  We are also excellent at regaining possession in the midfield.  When watching games we often appear in control, not rushed and our strikers get good chances.

Weakness

A small problem is our left hand side.  My fullback this side is Luca Pellegrini.  His ability unfortunate is just 1.5 stars.  This leads me to think that it is the player and not the system being exposed.

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@Robson 07 if Pellegrini's attributes back up that 1.5 star rating (sometimes scouts are idiots) then it could be at least partially the player - in a narrow system like that your full backs are even more important than usual. 

I'm not 100% sure on my next idea, but perhaps Vallejo as a stopper will be coming out to break up play a little too early and with no wing support Pellegrini can also end up really isolated? 

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30 minutes ago, zlatanera said:

@Robson 07 if Pellegrini's attributes back up that 1.5 star rating (sometimes scouts are idiots) then it could be at least partially the player - in a narrow system like that your full backs are even more important than usual. 

I'm not 100% sure on my next idea, but perhaps Vallejo as a stopper will be coming out to break up play a little too early and with no wing support Pellegrini can also end up really isolated? 

Pellegrini is under developed for this level.  I have no money at the moment so I could perhaps get another loanee short term or hope he develops quickly.  I'm also considering a spot of retraining someone else's position. 

The Vallejo role as a stopper is a good spot.  I had briefly considered this might contribute.  At the moment I like him attacking the ball and stepping up but I'll keep a close eye on it.

...Thanks for the reply.:)

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2 minutes ago, Robson 07 said:

Pellegrini is under developed for this level.  I have no money at the moment so I could perhaps get another loanee short term or hope he develops quickly.  I'm also considering a spot of retraining someone else's position. 

The Vallejo role as a stopper is a good spot.  I had briefly considered this might contribute.  At the moment I like him attacking the ball and stepping up but I'll keep a close eye on it.

...Thanks for the reply.:)

Yeah like I said I'm not 100% sure - I've had a Cover-Stopper combo with Manchester United work really well with the Stopper next to a FB-At, but we do have wide men (not that an IF-At does much defending, but he will keep the opposition full back occupied) so I'm not sure how much that changes how it works compared to yours. 

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@Robson 07  Welcome to the forum and thanks for getting involved :).

You say a small problem is your left side, with Luca Pellegrini only being 1.5 stars for ability and so perhaps the player is being exposed.  But you also say you've only conceded 8 goals in 14 matches (the lowest in Serie A) and are 3rd in the table.  That's a championship winning defence but you're "only" 3rd.  Are you sure your small problem is with Luca?

You clearly have a sound system.  Rather than mess around with it, what might happen if you simply switched Lorenzo Pellegrini with Nainggolan?  Suddenly you'd have a much more tenacious player in the central midfield playmaker role who might be able to help out Luca Pellegrini on the left flank more (and other areas of defence) whilst retaining someone with great attacking ability in the AMC position.

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7 hours ago, herne79 said:

@Robson 07  Welcome to the forum and thanks for getting involved :).

Thank you @herne79, kind of you to say as much.  My pleasure.

7 hours ago, herne79 said:

You clearly have a sound system.  Rather than mess around with it, what might happen if you simply switched Lorenzo Pellegrini with Nainggolan? 

Not something I'd considered really.  I don't know.  Let me throw that thought into the mix, good one.  Its interesting to get some different perspective on these tactics.  I shall report back on these things for better or worse.

For completeness here's the table:

1575092148_SerieATIM_OverviewStages.thumb.png.977eefa9527e2313f2bdbf09512c200c.png

Our record is comparable to Milan's.  Juventus may yet have another gear.

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2124161429_2018-06-0709_00_12pm.thumb.png.e7e68be417d54d0651d55829d092b8f6.png

721602338_2018-06-0709_01_37pm.thumb.png.a934a37cc8c0f7d9e3922cc953c354bf.png

I think it's safe to say we surpassed expectations this season. No money spent (two loans and two free transfers in), a media prediction of a 9th place finish and a board expectation of 10th or above. I only made some small tactical changes from my original post, changing the TMs to a DLFs due to injuries and removing the 'shoot less often' PI's from two of my central midfielders. So basically for the second half of the season we had one PI selected (GK to distribute to CB's) and one TI selected (Retain Possession).

Pre-season for the 2018/19 season is well underway, with eleven (yes, eleven) loan signings made to bolster the squad for our assault on Serie B. I'd have liked to have made some permanent signings but my transfer budget amounts to whatever I find down the back of the sofa and the club's financial situation isn't the best, so loans will do for now.

I have gone with the same shape so far in pre-season, but with a few roles changed:

999950094_2018-06-0709_53_29pm.thumb.png.a39392ed624d20582a56db0803ec7ef9.png

Staying with my theme of using roles I rarely or never use, I've gone with a BWMs. I also have a young midfielder who has come on leaps and bounds this season who is perfect for the role. To balance that change I've made the MEZ the more attacking midfielder of the three. Also, my attack last season was one-paced, but I had to make do with it. This season I've got a couple of forwards in on loan with decent off-the-ball and acceleration attributes so switched to an AFa to give defences something different to think about. Other than that, it's the same, no TI or PI changes.

Onward and (hopefully) upward. I'd be happy to avoid the drop this season, but you never know what will happen. Forza La Celeste!

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My 4312 from a few posts ago only earned us 5th place in the league.  A better placing disappeared at the end of the season I think mainly due to suspension, injury and fatigue brought about by a long run in the dreaded Europa League.

In the off season I captured Luke Shaw on a free to help address the problem left back area.  The tactic itself still exists into the new season but it has evolved.  I use it now with a Fluid shape and have changed some roles to make it more aggressive at closing space.  I may be bordering on too many TI/PI now for this thread, plus I've introduced a 2nd tactic designed to open up space against defensive sides.  Hopefully I'll still get to chip in here and there with this thread.

By the way Roma are an interesting manage.  We pay loan debts of £2.9m per month until year 2025.  As you'd expect this is financially crippling but has made this particular save a very good challenge.

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17 minutes ago, Robson 07 said:

I may be bordering on too many TI/PI now for this thread, plus I've introduced a 2nd tactic designed to open up space against defensive sides.  Hopefully I'll still get to chip in here and there with this thread.

No worries.  The whole purpose of the thread isn't really about using 2 or less TIs, it's about helping people see how their team actually plays and addressing issues which may occur which can be harder to see when using large amounts of TIs.  So walk before you run, and running before you can walk is an easy trap a lot of people can fall into.

If you're now noticing things better than before, which it sounds like you are, that's a win :).

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Just purely out of interest, I'm doing my first FM save ever without downloading a tactic, and I'm using 0,1 or max 2 team instructions (still lower league for now,  underdog teams and I'm always in positions I'm expected do be).

I see this is called a "tactical challenge", does that mean that it will be typically harder to have good results with no TI's, PI's ?

Or can you say it's reasonable feasible - as a standard player - to win the title with f.e. Barca or Bayern without using TI's and PI's? (I know with lower teams it is feasible to play as expected since I'm doing that now)

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6 minutes ago, DavyDepuydt1 said:

I see this is called a "tactical challenge", does that mean that it will be typically harder to have good results with no TI's, PI's ?

Herne may have a different view... I'd say in terms of winning absolutely not. You can have a great system with no PI, TI or you can have a great system with them in abundance. Anyone should be able to plug and play as Barcelona, Bayern, PSG, Real, Celtic, Juve etc and win the league without any significant thought to tactics... just a solid 4123, 4231, 442 etc will do the job as you have elite players. People that don't win the league with Barcelona are probably the players who use a large number of PI and TI that don't compliment each other or the formation, mentality and shape.

I think the challenge was intended to prove that... and stop users thinking they need really complicated tactics to win... you don't.

In terms of the multitude of PI and TI I think they become useful when trying to create specific tactical patterns (pressing traps, passing lanes...). I've got more TI and PI in my 3rd season than I had in my first two and I acknowledge that in fact my tactic is weaker... but I'm using them to emphasise a particular style (free expressive football). It could be as my season progresses that I tailor it back a little and allow the player attributes and PPMs to speak for themselves.  

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29 minutes ago, DavyDepuydt1 said:

I see this is called a "tactical challenge", does that mean that it will be typically harder to have good results with no TI's, PI's ?

Or can you say it's reasonable feasible - as a standard player - to win the title with f.e. Barca or Bayern without using TI's and PI's? (I know with lower teams it is feasible to play as expected since I'm doing that now)

It's not a challenge to make the game harder.  If you take a look at the "Purpose" in the opening post, it's mainly aimed at 2 things:

1) To demonstrate you don't need loads of tactical instructions to create successful systems.

2) To help people identify issues on the pitch.  It can be easier to spot and fix problems with fewer tactical instructions.

3) To help understand what the tactical settings actually do.

4) To realise that I can't count.

So yeh, it's absolutely feasible to win the title with Barca or Bayern, or indeed (over) achieve any club's season expectations using no/few TIs :thup:.  Do you have to use no/few TIs?  No of course not, play the game how you like.  This "challenge" is simply a means to help people understand things better.

TL;DR this series of "challenges" are a social thing - set an objective and come together as a community to help one another to ultimately enjoy the game more.  That's the real purpose :).

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I tend to stick to lurking on this forum these days, but couldn't resist resurfacing to have a go at this!

To add interest I fancied using a club I knew nothing about, so I started a new save with Ostersunds FK, a club predicted to finish 8th in the 16-team Allsvenskan (Swedish premier league).

It’s ended up being a really enjoyable one, as well as surprising as the the lads far exceeded my and the board's expectations by winning the league in my first season. We started pretty well, gradually notching up increasingly frequent wins to climb to the top spot by about the third point. The middle of the season won it for us, with some great results meaning we never dropping below 2nd / 3rd with games in hand, and although we faltered a bit in the final third of the season, suffering a few losses, rivals did too so in the end we managed to clinch it with one match remaining.

In the Swedish cup we achieved, but not exceeded, the board's expectations by reaching the quarter final, where we were knocked out on penalties by a fortuitous AIK who had 5 shots (all off target) to our 28. Media predictions ranked them as the 2nd best team in the league though, so I had no complaints with this performance.

G7NU9C.png

Tactics wise, I employed the same 4-2-3-1 system (shown below) in every match, with the only occasional change being switching the AML’s role from inside forward to winger if I brought the one left footed player I had in that position on as a sub. After a while I stopped doing even this though, as I found he tended to go down the wing and get crosses in more anyway even on the IF role, just because of his foot preference (he didn't have this behaviour as a PPM). I didn't use any PIs, OIs or set piece instructions, so what you see below is it.

OIz5Kq.png

Up front, I rotated between two players and they both ended with a good goals to games ratio. I started with this role as DLF attack, but he wasn't getting as many goals as I'd like so I changed it to AF which improved things substantially.

The midfield was what made the tactic. The wide AMs were both very effective, getting plenty of assists and a decent goal tally too. The central AM got the most assists, with the passing and vision of my first choice player seeming to make quite a big difference in this regard, so I think these are key attributes here.

Behind the AMs, the DLP also got a few assists, and generally dictated things, so I think decent all-round attributes are needed here. I also gave the players in this position training for  the 'dictates tempo’ PPM if they didn't already have it, and discouraged any PPMs associated with getting forward too much. The BWM was an important but low key role. Using someone with decent tackling (a player who could also play centreback in my case) is key to him doing his job and also minimising fouls.

The defence and keeper roles were also low key, but stronger than the sum of their parts when combined as a unit, with us concededing the fewest goals in the league. Perhaps not what you'd expect from a team lining up in such an attacking base formation

I expect next season to be more difficult, as I don't anticipate having the resources to make significant squad improvements, yet I'll be competing in the Champions League as well as the two domestic competitions. On the plus side, this means I'll be able to give fringe players more game time to keep them happy, which is something I struggled with this season.

As champions, I also expect more teams will defend deeper against me and look to counter. I look forward to it though, and have found this a great challenge to do because of the way it prompts you to focus on getting the basics right first and foremost.

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1 hour ago, Millsinho said:

have found this a great challenge to do because of the way it prompts you to focus on getting the basics right first and foremost.

Exactly this :thup:.

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An update on season 2 in Serie B:

1772474314_2018-06-1206_57_09pm.thumb.png.ddaf629802f8a64996dd22d66d40986e.png

1485877933_2018-06-1207_50_25pm.thumb.png.36d7c413df9961db2708ffa647361a74.png

We did it! Amazing. Although, I have aged about 10 years in the process, because with 14 games to go, we played Frosinone, our nearest rivals with the chance to go 10 points clear of them at the top, but a 1-0 defeat triggered a spell of poor form that almost cost us promotion:

127437765_2018-06-1206_58_17pm.thumb.png.482a5182b4fc28e604ed4174bdf67cb8.png

Thankfully, we scraped over the line and will now pit our wits against the very best Italy has to offer.

Tactically, one small change from my previous post, changing the AF to a Poacher as only one of the two players I rotated in that role is any good at dribbling. My DLF actually scored most of the goals, but then he is my best player by a mile.

If anyone needs me, I will be having a lie down in a darkened room ...

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Thought I'd give you an update on my Rangers save.

I'm still using the same formation that I posted earlier. I've only added two players this year, both 19 year olds with an eye on the future.

I've been using this since December of the previous season.

This is the summary :

Summary.thumb.png.0d07d6c10d2bb51f2bfac927b407167f.png

After the drama in the final minutes of the league season last year, no such drama this time around. I clinched the league with 5 games to spare - the game tried to get me to hold a team meeting for "the biggest game of the season". I declined as I only needed 1 point from 5 games!

154088438_Table3.thumb.png.52f702ed44c4e57c427a960b8fd94dc9.png

My original plan with this save was to keep moving clubs to try to get to a big club but I'm quite enjoying being at Rangers!

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2 hours ago, Kevin_M said:

We did it! Amazing.

 

4 minutes ago, macca7292 said:

I clinched the league with 5 games to spare

Great job both of you :thup:.

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Thanks!

I was thinking of staying at Rangers but I couldn't resist this :

Welcome.thumb.png.7143bb3bb751c851a8766d0a72641e4d.png

Still going to play the same way!

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Using my favoured 4-1-4-1 formation, with Control/Flexible selected.  I didn't change this at all throughout the season

53Pesmr.png

TI's chosen are Short Passing & Prevent Short GK Distribution

Only Pi's selected are the ml, mcl & mr who all have shoot less often.  My Playmaker has more direct passing selected and my GK has distribute to full backs

Hznch0u.png

Finished 2nd 

tZeTKvO.png

Somehow losing the playoff final despite dominating.

Whenever I wanted to add a team instruction I removed an existing one, ie Play Wider added so I removed short passing.  If i wanted to hold onto a lead for 5 minutes i removed short passing and added retain possession.  I rarely changed other TI's

I often changed roles/duties so making my cm(a) an AP(a) & my AP(s) a CM(s) and then changing my DF(s) to an AF(a)

Season 2 awaits hopefully I can improve on my 2nd place finish

Edited by boblardo

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32 minutes ago, boblardo said:

Finished 2nd 

Well on the up side, good job finishing 2nd.  It looks like you've played this challenge really well :thup:.  I assume your season expectations were lower than 2nd?

33 minutes ago, boblardo said:

Somehow losing the playoff final despite dominating.

But on the down side, losing to a 105th min penalty has got to hurt :(.  Fingers crossed for next year.

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16 hours ago, boblardo said:

 

53Pesmr.png

TI's chosed are Short Passing & Prevent Short GK Distribution

Does DF(s) work well with Prevent Short GK Distribution? How did it go in your season?

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My DF(s) was my and the divisions top scorer, I would usually play a DLF(s) but there were two things here

1) the player wasn't good enough in terms of passing

2) i wanted my front player to have a closing down PI, the dlf doesn't have this by default so would have meant removing a PI from somewhere else.  So I chose the df(s) role

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Really like this challenge. I start new save with Fiorentina, and decide not to buy anyone in 1st transfer window. At first I use Control with fluid, but it didn’t work well. My team can’t create enough a chance and too many miss pass. So I lower mentality to Counter, to create slower tempo, and cautious build up play.

Spoiler

XDKl3dU.png

 

Formation

Using flat 4-4-2 with WP on 1 side. Sometimes I change my WP to WM (S) if the opponent play too narrow.

Team Instructions

I always start with Higher Defensive Line (to shorter distance between my defenders and midfielders) and Work Ball into Box (to stop my player shooting from distance). But it really depends on situation on the field. If the opponent have pacey striker, I remove Higher Defensive Line; If I can’t create a chance, I replace Work Ball into Box with Pass into Space or More Direct Pass; or Play Wider if I want focus my attack from both wings.

Player Instructions

Short Pass for my defender with low passing attribute (DCR), Take Short Kick (GK), and Dribble More (MR).

Spoiler

N4nNozp.png

 

Result

After half season I sit on 3rd, 15 points from Juve. Can’t complain.

Spoiler

oasKfaw.png

Spoiler

njO3FN2.png

 

And now for 2nd half of the season, I try to create more attacking tactic, either change formation or change mentality/team shape.

Is it okay to use OI for this challenge?

Edited by diavolo rosso

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On ‎11‎/‎06‎/‎2018 at 19:23, Millsinho said:

have found this a great challenge to do because of the way it prompts you to focus on getting the basics right first and foremost.

I know @herne79 highlighted exactly the same quote a couple of posts ago and I think I can see why.  Had a good look at a number of posts on this forum this evening and I can why this thread was created.  I know the game has some bend around how people interpret it but there is some wildly inconsistent stuff, even among regular or decorated posters when you start looking about.  Some of it is unchallenged (maybe because it comes from a regular contributor?) and there's a lot of quite conflicting information, all of which must make very hard for someone new looking to learn the game.

In many ways this thread is a good place to start and build from.  More people should use it.  My Roma tactic from before went from 4312 to 4132 but still on control-fluid with very few bells and whistles and I won the Champions League  over the weekend with it.  A big part I believe was not chopping and changing.  Familiarity.  Small adjustments, keep gelled and settled, have players learn the system.  Come through the youth teams having been tutored and trained in the roles being used.  Keep the dressing room happy and consistent results follow.

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A final update from me - after guiding the mighty AlbinoLeffe to Serie A with consecutive promotions, our first season in the top flight could be considered a success; a 13th place finish, 10 points clear of relegation:

1544267193_2018-06-2410_29_24pm.thumb.png.db68a7e2754df617bc744293745cda88.png

Tactics-wise, I experimented. My usual 4-1-3-2 evolved into a 4-2-2-2 and then a deep 4-3-1-2 and back to the 4-1-3-2. Unfortunately my constant meddling meant a strong first half of the season was followed by a diabolical second half, but it gave me some ideas for the following season.

One thing that had been obvious over our first three seasons was an overreliance on the strikers to not only score the goals but to assist one another and I wanted more output from midfield.

To achieve this I switched to a 4-4-2 diamond:

1178108972_2018-06-0709_53_29pm.png.4e4df867a512bcf0f2b7fda4f4cb7ab4.thumb.png.7a1c55033b714a91a9f0accf36d8f669.png449584147_2018-06-2411_10_22pm.thumb.png.5921728002b4479b6528aba375e6a6d1.png

I sacrificed my central BWM for an AM. My thinking was that by moving a player to the AM position, I've immediately got a third player closer to goal. To balance that, my MEZa became a DLPs who will hold his position. I switched my AFa for a CFs because I wanted both strikers on support to keep mentalities closer together and changed the team shape from flexible to fluid for the same reason. I also added the 'Work Ball Into Box' TI because we take too many long shots.

The result so far, a third of the way through the season, has been nothing short of spectacular:

120271921_2018-06-2411_44_50pm.png.1dee382b31ba276b5eab1e321a714f07.png

Eight goals and nine assists from midfield so far. We're also third in goals conceded, second in goals scored and have a 48% shot accuracy. Not bad seeing as we've only spent £5.5m on transfers and have the lowest wage bill and attendances in the division.

This thread has definitely inspired me to do something similar when FM19 comes along, whether it's another community challenge or just my own personal one. :thup:

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8 hours ago, Kevin_M said:

A final update from me - after guiding the mighty AlbinoLeffe to Serie A with consecutive promotions, our first season in the top flight could be considered a success; a 13th place finish, 10 points clear of relegation:

Great job :).  Glad you've found the thread useful.

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This is a great thread as it shows successful tactics can also be simple ones and adding too many PI and TI instructions just leads to confusion where you cant tell what influences what.

 

Ive given this challenge a try and used it to manage in a totally new league. My team is Universidad de Chile and the board expect the title. But preseason has been excellent and to my surprise i had quite a few familiar faces in my squad to work with.

 

Ill put screenshots up when the competitive action kicks off

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I really like this thread, so im giving it a go, because although ive been successful on the game, i am guilty of using too many PI and TI's at times, and also i thought this challenge was a good opportunity to try a totally new league and new team.

Ive gone with Universidad De Chile

 

Crest.png.02ddae6a1e127e71a64d112e0ab76774.png1253923486_leaguebadge.jpe.b9499e168998386645166bd2d32a20d2.jpe2037059681_TeamPhoto.thumb.jpg.5c8fd763e9c4d930a794b06679cdc811.jpgMascot.thumb.JPG.98533b00215d3379ef8acac2632f228e.JPG

 

Universidad seems like a good challenge, because despite an excellent squad with several well known players, they finished in 3rd place last season in the league. The board dont like that one bit, and they want the title.

Pre-season seems to last forever in this country, but its actually going well. Ive been registering some good wins against domestically based teams Palestino and Audax Italiano, as well as excellent performances against stronger teams like Independiente of Argentina and America of Mexico

Results.thumb.jpg.c2968b8e01b072ba288272ec0c2c046e.jpg

 

Performances have seen us being very creative, despite the tactic being extremely simple, and the team is gelling well. I will admit, i am not the best analyser of prozone data and the heat maps, but i spend a lot of time watching games in comprehensive mode, pausing and rewinding in friendlies if needed, and watching games very closely to observe the players movements and whether they carry out instructions properly.

Our last three friendlies have yielded these performances, and Independiente was the best performance all round, despite not finding the winning goal:

499591887_vsAmerica.thumb.jpg.d65059a24300575ac192575382c55696.jpg2115381419_vsaudax.thumb.jpg.345fa27b6ea999d703f6c2fbbad66907.jpg1346395684_vsindependiente.thumb.jpg.748787131180831deeab7986741e0396.jpg

 

So for the tactic, the rules were a maximum of 2 team instructions are allowed, and a maximum of 5 player instructions are allowed.

So for the basic tactic, i had gone with:

tactic.thumb.jpg.2932ce442ca5b39e92da4a6265ae8c32.jpg1139368031_teaminstructions.thumb.jpg.74bcf5241ff42b268f2c8770d9234f3c.jpg

The tactic is essentially, use the pace of Luis Pinilla up front with through balls and direct balls to run on to, and to get the ball in the box at every opportunity where Pinilla will attack the ball, and the opposite winger whether that be Beausejour or Cooper will attack the back post. Armando Cooper does this particularly well.

The through balls slid into Luis Pinilla to run onto are mostly supplied by Mauricio Pinilla, who in his role as a false nine drops into a midfield role and looks for the risky pass, and from David Pizarro, in many ways the main man who runs the show in midfield.

Both of the full backs are good crossers of the ball, so this is a weapon.

The basic tactic just has the one team instruction, and that is to "pass into space". I can change the tactic if teams are defending very deep against me, by using a "slightly higher defensive line" and "close down more". But these are the only changes.

The 2nd part of the challenge was to ONLY use 5 player instuctions. Im going with:

Beausejour.thumb.jpg.2ae628f6647be25598e5399fea141954.jpg1937439538_BeausejourPIS.thumb.jpg.22a68c88148705812901220cb017138d.jpg

Jean Beausejour is an excellent wide man. Ive set him to defensive winger, this seems to enhance his partnership with the left full back Monzon. His first player instruction is "get further forward" which sees him get into the box more. I also tell him to "sit narrower" as he does a good job of creating 2 v 1 situations down the left with Monzon, and covering for Pizarro if he pushes forward.

Monzon.thumb.jpg.8315fd77dd63a67e5bdda191164ec5c7.jpg1756306148_MonzonPIS.thumb.jpg.29358e7de444de54fc9981ede9145325.jpg

Fabian Monzon is linking well with Beausejour. He has brilliant attributes for an attacking full back and shows a natural inclination to bomb down the left hand side so ive not given him anything positionally, except to "cross more often". These crosses often find the right wide midfielder Armando Cooper who attacks the box at every opportunity. so this is the third player instruction i am using and it seems to work (so far).

The only other player instructions, are on the central midfielders:

Reyes.thumb.jpg.75e299a7adadc794875e8559a5517fd9.jpg625936464_ReyesPIS.thumb.jpg.026c134fe26cef380ab82b55a4a4324e.jpg

Lorenzo Reyes has great aggression and bravery, combined with great anticipation and positioning. Hes a bit like the N'golo Kane of the Chile league in the way he plays. Ive just told him to "hold position" and every time Armando Cooper goes forwards, if the ball is lost Reyes seems to mop up.

Pizarro.thumb.jpg.2931ddc371fb75960f7c07d9fae8628a.jpg345101307_PizarroPIS.thumb.jpg.1ee8ce03672c4e225c1b8843847723b7.jpg

David Pizarro is the main man and spent many years in Serie A. He runs the show. His vision, passing and technique are outstanding, so ive given him the "more risky passes" player instruction, which gives him more inclination to craft through balls to the onrushing wide midfielders, and for Pinilla as an Advanced Forward.

 

So thats what im going with so far, ill post more screenshots hopefully this will be a long term save im enjoying managing this team so far

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Hi there, I think that this will be my first post on this forum. 

I would like to just share my tactic which is very simple in terms of TIs and PIs. It might give someone else inspiration to build their own tactic. I put it together after reading some stuff from Herne and Cleon (thanks for all the stuff you share with us!).

What I learned is that important thing is to choose right roles/duties for your system and to use players with right attributes (and also PPMs!) for each role.

Tactic.thumb.jpg.cc1ae15ba98d25b20a74971f931b05a3.jpg

(PIs: close down more for my front three and distribute to fullbacks for my GK)

I'm at the start of my third season with Liverpool and results seem very promising so far. However, what is more important, we play some really nice football !!!

results.thumb.jpg.14808cddb82853ba141dd8f6be975e5a.jpg

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7 minutes ago, FildaVilda said:

What I learned is that important thing is to choose right roles/duties for your system and to use players with right attributes (and also PPMs!) for each role.

Welcome to the forum and absolutely spot on :thup:.

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On 14/06/2018 at 07:00, moolochicken said:

Does DF(s) work well with Prevent Short GK Distribution? How did it go in your season?

Since Prevent Short GK Distribution translates to tight marking the CBs to stop the GK from distributing to them, I'd say a Defensive Forward is the best role for that!

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Before the start of the season, the Universidad De Chile board had the following objectives (to be met by using no more than 2 team instructions, and 5 player instructions):

 

  • Win the Chilean Premier Division
  • Chilean Cup Not Important
  • Already knocked out of Copa Libertedores under previous manager.

Im happy to say i have achieved the clubs objectives for the season and completed the challenge, but subsequent seasons are still to play:

1480094769_finalleaguetable.thumb.jpg.02c1665f7845600a38c0ffa5c4217daa.jpg1352064104_SeasonsResults.thumb.jpg.a4cb5a13c6ee1db589df93bc036d41aa.jpg

The key will now be to phase out some of the more experienced players who are starting to weaken, David Pizarro is 38 and just simply doesnt have the physicals now to play in a central midfield 2 in my system and is one i am looking to replace, hence bringing Felipe Seymour into the side, the other is Jean Beausejour who is pushing 34 and i feel if his pace declines, then his effectiveness will. Although i think he could be a defensive minded left back without much trouble.

Im also looking to tighten up a little at the back, and improve our home form which was a bit patchy. We always looked capable of scoring goals but at times we were a little leaky over the course of the season.

The tactic has evolved slightly, and it depends on whether im playing home or away with some subtle changes:

 

Tactic.thumb.jpg.c6eb48efdc18d31a637a83469f1d7b88.jpg

This is the away tactic, it utilises just the one team instruction to "pass into space" which sees lots of through balls threaded to the advancing Cooper, my star man, and Soteldo or Beausejour down the left. When playing at home, i tend to switch "pass into space" with "be more expressive"... in the 2nd half of the season this seemed to be working, although i cant really explain why. My assistant manager was constantly asking me to use this instruction throughout the season, and i tried it and it seemed pretty effective. Pinilla does an excellent job of dropping deep while the wide men overlap and support him.

Only other change is to set the keeper to sweeper keeper attack, and a PI to kick the ball long. just sees us picking up lots of 2nd balls.

I think what this thread has also showed me is, when building a successful tactic, not every player has to have a "specialised" position. I use the sweeper keeper and false nine, but other than that its bog standard central mids, defenders, wide men etc.

I think removing the pre set instructions that come with specialised positions makes it much easier to get your team to play how you want, and depending on the early games you can change this a little but mostly, the simple positions have good effect

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On 15/05/2018 at 15:45, herne79 said:

Keeping TIs and PIs to a minimum can help lift the fog and improve understanding of player behaviour as well as how Mentality or even (dare I say it) Team Shape works.

Haha, not for me.

I win this challenge by default I think!

My standard go-to is a 4-4-1-1, standard, flexible. The only PI is the goalkeeper's distribution. Nothing else. Always over-performs for me. I still have my last FM18 save knocking about, where I've taken West Ham into the Europa League - I missed out on the Champions League by a point (or goal difference, can't remember.) 

Curiously, I noticed that I could have used that save for the poacher challenge - Alas, I switched between AF and P up top, and unfortunately Hernandez was an awful poacher for me in the system - His decision making and eventually injuries let him down. I did have more success with Sakho who netted, I think 12 in that file. Still, needs improvement really.

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On 18/06/2018 at 22:44, Robson 07 said:

A big part I believe was not chopping and changing.  Familiarity.  Small adjustments, keep gelled and settled, have players learn the system.  Come through the youth teams having been tutored and trained in the roles being used.  Keep the dressing room happy and consistent results follow.

I couldn’t agree more. There’s a lot to be said for sticking with your basic system so players get used to it, and making improvements gradually. It’s worth remembering that when things don’t go to plan there could be many non-tactical reasons for it (morale, player type/quality, luck, motivation, complacency, fitness etc).

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I'm sure you are desperate to learn how I got on with Club Brugge!

I've just finished season four - first 3 I used same tactic as with Rangers and won league each time.

Season four I thought I'd try something a bit different. I was getting bored with playing the same way and Bielsa's arrival at Leeds prompted me to attempt something approaching his 3313 formation. I kept the libero, the same TIs and PIs as before. Here's the tactic :bielsa.thumb.png.12a663ea5d6f01985ecd15f50e60cce9.png

I'm still unsure I've got the right balance down the right but overall I'm very pleased - the libero is a lot more involved and we are dominant domestically. I just need to crack the Champions League!

This was the highlight of the season :

unbeaten.thumb.png.15eca76f2f1a3eb29037208fd2a4dfc4.png

This was the final league table - we broke the records for wins and goals. I'm still not a fan of the way the Belgian League splits after 30 games and halves your points!

745673085_tableunbeaten.thumb.png.b7b37af3fb24697955828eee162c2205.png

Don't think I've had an unbeaten season before - I feel a bit like Jay in Inbetweeners, "Football Manager? Completed it mate!"

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1 hour ago, macca7292 said:

Don't think I've had an unbeaten season before - I feel a bit like Jay in Inbetweeners, "Football Manager? Completed it mate!"

lol great going :).

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