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Armistice

How counter-attacking football works in FM

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Okay so on what exactly should we focus when we trying to play counter-attacking football? Are counter-attacks auto triggered or you can “create” them? Can you do something to make them trigger more often? What do you look for in games when looking to sit back, soak pressure & hit a CT? An organized shape? How much individual players close down?

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Ok, that's an awful lot of questions to just throw out there. It sounds like you're essentially asking the forum to design a counter-attacking system for you...

You should probably read this (if you haven't already).

This run of Cleon articles get shared all the time, I know. But they're just so bloody useful when you want to get yourself into thinking in a certain mode.

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I have read it. In fact I wasn't asking anyone to design a tactic for me, I designed one in an experiment, took over bottom placed West Brom in March and used a 4-4-2 trying to counter in the remaining games hopefully to save the club from relegation, but lost all the games...

 

For example here I was told to use more attacking duties.

 

Edited by Armistice

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8 hours ago, Armistice said:

Are counter-attacks auto triggered or you can “create” them?

Both. Barring ultra-defensive tactics, every team will try to counter attack when given an opportunity. You can also "create" a tactic which would increase the rate of counter attacks. The tactic is quite straightforward, put men behind the ball, defend in numbers and try to lure opposition to commit players into your side of pitch, thus "creating" an opportunity to break forward before opposition gets back into it's defensive structure.

The default "counter" mentality in the game is not representative of counter attacking football because the URGENCY of delivering the ball forward and making more opportunistic passes are reduced in that mentality.

There are dominant teams such as Real Madrid that are good at playing counter attacking football. And there are lesser teams which play standofish football, letting the the opposition to have the most of the ball but hitting back at every opportunity. The latter is somewhat harder to achieve in fm, as in my experience the possession stats strongly correlates with win ratio (barring extreme "keep the ball at all costs" mentality), as teams who regularly cedes the ball possession is less likely to consistently win games.

I played the demo of fm18 and as an experiment  "created" a tactic with pure counter-attacking style of play. Half way through the season, my teams has by far the least "average possesion" stats in the league between 20 teams at 38%. Every team dominates me, and even at home minnow teams dictates play against me. Nonetheless we are magnificent at  counter attacks. So my team sits comfortably at first place in the league. This must be my best fm experience, as such possession stats would always translate into defeats in my previous experiences.

I will buy fm on sale, hopefully in june, play the whole season and post the detailed report on my experience.

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9 hours ago, Armistice said:

Okay so on what exactly should we focus when we trying to play counter-attacking football? Are counter-attacks auto triggered or you can “create” them? Can you do something to make them trigger more often? What do you look for in games when looking to sit back, soak pressure & hit a CT? An organized shape? How much individual players close down?

 

8 hours ago, felley said:

You should probably read this (if you haven't already).

 

 

53 minutes ago, Armistice said:

I have read it.

All of your original questions are answered in Cleon's thread.  If you've read it, what aspect are you struggling with?

1 hour ago, Armistice said:

For example here I was told to use more attacking duties.

In terms of Rashidi's video, he's explaining a different way of going about counter attacking - and its not about just using more attacking duties.

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1 hour ago, Armistice said:

For example here I was told to use more attacking duties.

@Rashidi explanation was a lot more than just "use more attacking duties". 

My take on his video was:

  1. You need to use the right players for the job, before even looking at the tactics screen he looked at the players.  I prioritise defenders who can defend in there box (positioning + jumping) and quick forwards (anticipation + acceleration).
  2. Recommends a DM screen when wanting to defend deep.
  3. Prefers for a creative player to pass long rather than carry the ball.  I assume this is because you can transition quicker by passing than dribbling.
  4. He made a tweak to Mark Tighter (plenty of players back deep to cover all players) and push up slightly, I think because the team was being to passive. If closely marked then passing to feet is risking an interception or being quickly tackled/hassled into a mistake.

Compare that with @Cleon guide, before he mentions the tactic he gives a break down of attributes! The players used are key in both. Tactically in his example he has a screening DM but uses two banks of 4 instead of a back 3.  It is more patient when there isn't a counter attack available not making players focus on riskier passes or dribbling etc, but because he has a flat midfield 4 there's more players potentially in position to counter attack than in a 532 DM (4+1 vs 2+2 as the WBs and DM will mostly be deeper than the ball).  Rashidi's is a bit more urgent when there isn't a counter attack available due to the DLP and the attack duties but he has a front 2 so has more immediate support so can afford to be more direct more often IMO.  They are just two examples but they follow similar principles:

  1. Use the right players
  2. Formation should be quite deep to draw opponents further upfield
  3. Don't be too passive, you aren't parking the bus, win the ball back how best you can.
  4. If you don't trigger a counter attack have a plan, this could be to be a bit direct anyway or be more patient to have some possession and possibly draw opponents up field with there closing down, neither is wrong.

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2 hours ago, summatsupeer said:

be more patient to have some possession and possibly draw opponents up field with there closing down

While there can be different approaches to counter-attacking style, I find any notion of "keep the ball" mentality even if in short passages during the play goes into direct contradiction of C-A style. When you are a dominant team in your league, lesser teams lines up deep with little pressing, which results in not leaving any openings for you to exploit in "counter-attacking" manner.  Thus counter-attacks are incidental and so cannot be presented as a part of overall C-A style of play. In my idealistic view of C-A style is proactively giving an opposition most of the ball, inviting to come up to your own half, thus even when you face defensive sides, they will still leave space behind their CDs when they are parked  in your half of the pitch with false sense of superiority.

Of course there bound to be situations for example after a throw-in when there is no way to launch a lightning fast counter-attack for you but overall the style of play to be regarded as primarily C-A - the nature of most of the scored goals should come from counter-attacking move. At the moment my every second goal comes from pure C-A move which is the primary tool of distinctive pure C-A football.

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6 hours ago, Armistice said:

For example here I was told to use more attacking duties

Rule of thumb for quick transitions which can happen on any mentality, is that you need the right players attacking space with the right attributes. So when I say you need more attacking duties its in that context. I once took someone's tactic he was having a hard time breaking down sides and wanted quick transitions, I changed it to standard fluid with the right players attacking spaces. He then produced a system which had up to 5 players attacking a box in transitions. The problem most people seem to have on the forums, is the likelihood of grabbing one catch phrase and using that as the god given truth.

Like @Cleon and I have said many times before.

Look at your overall system and how the players move into spaces or control spaces
Look at your player roles and then choose the right duties to do the job
Understand if they have the right attributes for the task. For example, there is no point saying your system depend on quick transitions and then you deploy a DLP who has poor balance and first touch. That combination means that under pressure he could lose the ball. So understand how the attributes all work together. This is by far the hardest thing most people have to master, but thankfully it
's not nearly as game breaking as the wrong duty, which is easier to fix imho.
Then look at how PIs and Player Traits influence how a specific player is going to play. For example, if you want someone to come back and defend often, but has the get further forward ppm, then understand the chance that he could be out of position. Does this mean you don't play him in that duty? Not necessarily, you can just lock down that flank with a more defensive role/duty behind him.
Finally Tis need to be understood in the context of your overall system.

There are many ways one could play counter attacking football, some people do it on counter, others can achieve the same on other mentalities. Ultimately it isn't just the mentality and shape that influence counters, its how you have chosen the right roles and duties for your tactic. Ai driven ones will still happen on defending free kicks and corners, but I am after the more sexier counters like counter pressing ones or turnovers in midfield.

To give another example, one of my favourite counter attacking systems is the 4132, its vulnerable down both flanks, which encourages the AI to attack them, but I stick in players who can win the ball in the air when they do come down the flanks, and then I usually have 3 roles in my backline that help me quickly distribute the ball, a DCB, a DLP and even a DFB, all 3 players have direct passing on them. Up top I have two strikers playing simple football, one is usually a poacher and another is almost always a DLF(S). If the ball gets to the DLF(S) he is more likely to look to make a through pass to the poacher. If it gets to the poacher he is more likely to run towards the flank to whip in a cross. Its simple and effective countering. However here, my choice of roles and duties was made first. Then I look at mentality and shape. Mentality becomes my risk factor and shape simply influences the chance that I get more or less players involved in transitions. If I want fewer players to take risks I use. lower shape, if I want more than I go fluid, and most likely I will watch my defensive line and make a small change to mentality. My preferred style is to play on control, however you can more easily drive AI controlled counters on lower mentalities, but the urgency in passing here is a function of the AI generated counter attack, which is something I hate. So in that case, I tell specific players to play risky and direct. Problem fixed.

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49 minutes ago, Rashidi said:

you can more easily drive AI controlled counters on lower mentalities

I'm quite sure it's the opposite. The lower mentality - the less passing range/directness, reduced tempo and generally more cautious passing which are everything C-A isn't about. While lower mentalities brings somewhat deeper D-line which in theory would help to "lure" opposition to your own half, it's efficiency can be negligible depending on your starting formation and highly negated by aforementioned negatives of lower mentalities.

I understand that you may somewhat refine the flow/starting point of C-A by giving specific individuals the weight of playmaking, but I think the starting mentality will have far greater influence on gameflow and rate of C-As.

Specifically AI driven counter-attacks happens mostly depending how much opposition is invested in corners/free-kicks and late in game when chasing an equalizer, thus giving you an easy ride in creating counter-attacks.

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53 minutes ago, Barbosa04 said:

I'm quite sure it's the opposite. The lower mentality - the less passing range/directness, reduced tempo and generally more cautious passing which are everything C-A isn't about. While lower mentalities brings somewhat deeper D-line which in theory would help to "lure" opposition to your own half, it's efficiency can be negligible depending on your starting formation and highly negated by aforementioned negatives of lower mentalities.

I understand that you may somewhat refine the flow/starting point of C-A by giving specific individuals the weight of playmaking, but I think the starting mentality will have far greater influence on gameflow and rate of C-As.

Specifically AI driven counter-attacks happens mostly depending how much opposition is invested in corners/free-kicks and late in game when chasing an equalizer, thus giving you an easy ride in creating counter-attacks.

You can't neglect that the lower mentalities only change the roles you are using, so it's still possible to have very aggressive roles in the side that give you passing length, range, tempo etc. Mentality alters the base of the roles you use. I'm not having a go at you here I'm speaking in a more general way but I hate when people say everything will be more cautious as its a bit misleading. Yes it will be more cautious but if you use very attacking roles like wingers/IF's/Segundo Volante's/Mez etc they'll still be really attacking. They'll just be slightly less attacking than normal. But that doesn't mean they're cautious, the role can still be very gungho and come with risks. 

Also don't forget when a CA is on, on the lower mentalities that tempo/passing and individual mentality is maxed out for the players in that phase of play when a counter is triggered. Ideally, setting up a true CA system is more about setting the roles/duties/TI's for how you want to act when a counter attack isn't on on the lower mentalities. 

On higher mentalities excluding overload, AI driven counter attacks don't happen. Any counters you see would all be naturally done and not AI driven. 

The starting mentality is the most important factor though because under the hood the parameters that determine an AI triggered counter is lower on overload/defensive and counter mentalities.

I also believe people confuse counter attacking football with quick direct football. They look similar but they're two different things. One is focused on the opposition over committing men forward so you have the numbers advantage. And the other is more about getting the ball from A to B in the fastest, simplest way regardless of any numbers advantage. 

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To reiterate @Cleon's point whenever I play on lower mentalities I am very focused on which players will drive the quick counters and specifically issue passing instructions and other PIs to influence this. Ultimately whether you are successful at getting these quick counters will ultimately depend on how you distribute any role and duty choices you make with specific PIs which may or may not be necessary. To give you an example. Say I am playing with a 442 and I want to hit teams quickly on the break. I would definitely consider having either a BPD or a DCB as one of my centre backs and then to make sure he hits those balls into the right spaces I stick the W(A) on his flank. Then I just hope for those moments to come where he clears the ball there.

I even had a session with someone where we took his 442 and flipped it into a 424 to play counter/structured counter attacking football. All his team did was sit back and hit balls into space down the flanks. It was ugly but efficient. Here the DCB or BPD are playing direct passes. So getting your attacks to hit on the counter isn't all about mentality or shape. It's about the roles and duties you select. The mix is the key here. Knowing when this is going to work is the last piece of the puzzle. We switched his system the moment the AI went with two attacking wingbacks.

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20180513061807_1.thumb.jpg.d4ba371ce211646c7ad600c4ad0a8c28.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I've just started making a counter attacking strategy (hopefully)

20180513061851_1.thumb.jpg.8f988d9d9e6051170f902f91fc37f206.jpgmy DLP has more direct passing and risky passes

so far we have done ok with a few nice counter goals 20180513064354_1.thumb.jpg.eddef543abf53127104d176f1a32ace2.jpg20180513064408_1.thumb.jpg.14cefda9d99f9be2be14e4fd53877692.jpg

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1 hour ago, fmburchillfan said:

20180513061807_1.thumb.jpg.d4ba371ce211646c7ad600c4ad0a8c28.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I've just started making a counter attacking strategy (hopefully)

20180513061851_1.thumb.jpg.8f988d9d9e6051170f902f91fc37f206.jpgmy DLP has more direct passing and risky passes

so far we have done ok with a few nice counter goals 20180513064354_1.thumb.jpg.eddef543abf53127104d176f1a32ace2.jpg20180513064408_1.thumb.jpg.14cefda9d99f9be2be14e4fd53877692.jpg

Nice try but I'd push the wingers back. If you want to make a successful counter tactic, it is imperative to get as many guys guys back defending deep as you can

Edited by Jean0987654321

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Yeah I did move my  LB to support I'm liking it so far just getting used to the low block, weird watching my players drop back and not pressing 

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12 hours ago, Cleon said:

On higher mentalities excluding overload, AI driven counter attacks don't happen.

 

12 hours ago, Cleon said:

The starting mentality is the most important factor though because under the hood the parameters that determine an AI triggered counter is lower on overload/defensive and counter mentalities.

Which one is true? Your first sentence implies AI driven CAs don't happen on control/attacking mentalities. Your second one implies it happens for every mentality but the threshold is lower for specific mentalities.

I'm not being an ass. Just want to clarify the point as it's an important one and can be a game-changer when devising a CA tactic.

 

12 hours ago, Cleon said:

I also believe people confuse counter attacking football with quick direct football. They look similar but they're two different things. One is focused on the opposition over committing men forward so you have the numbers advantage. And the other is more about getting the ball from A to B in the fastest, simplest way regardless of any numbers advantage.

Yeah, I agree totally. They can be distinctively different game styles. But would you agree that there are also similarities between the two? If CA football translates for you into having "numbers advantage" - that would require opposition over commit players forward and once you recycle the ball to take an advantage before they get back into their defensive shape, your only option is QUICK transitions (high tempo), urgency in delivering ball forward (DIRECT passing).

I have read your "art of CA football" thread and honestly your formation with chosen roles doesn't look counter-attacking at all. I'm also not having a go at you. I learned a lot from your posts through the years, and I see you as experienced player with nuanced knowledge of the game. That's just my own attempt on understanding and devising CA tactic in fm. Ok, to the point - your formation comes with counter (cautious)  mentality with only one player in oppositions half. Considering you didn't alter any TIs, there is no added urgency in play/ too few runners from deep, and no way of consistently creating "numbers advantage" with solitary man upfront. In this case only opposition who are willing to attack you may leave some openings for you, but more cautious/defensive side won't give you even a sniff at starting CA, thus CAs are incidental and overall tactic can't be portrayed as counter-attacking.

12 hours ago, Cleon said:

You can't neglect that the lower mentalities only change the roles you are using, so it's still possible to have very aggressive roles in the side that give you passing length, range, tempo etc. Mentality alters the base of the roles you use. I'm not having a go at you here I'm speaking in a more general way but I hate when people say everything will be more cautious as its a bit misleading. Yes it will be more cautious but if you use very attacking roles like wingers/IF's/Segundo Volante's/Mez etc they'll still be really attacking. They'll just be slightly less attacking than normal. But that doesn't mean they're cautious, the role can still be very gungho and come with risks. 

I see that for you roles and PI comes first before mentality and TIs, or at least in this case of creating CA. So it can be a personal choice, but I still have my reservations on such approach. Yes you can have specialist roles who try to make CA happen. While PIs may alter creative freadom/forward runs it doesn't touch urgency of said actions. Your non-specialist players such as defenders are also would be more lethargic in tempo and passing because of lower overall mentality which doesn't bodes well with CA style as it relies on quick transitions. Yes you may somewhat refine each indivuduals PIs and alter TI, but then why pick lower mentality in the first place with lot's of alterations when same can be achieved with higher mentality with small refining. And there is some limit on how much attacking you can modify a player to be in lower mentalities.

Shape.jpg.98ebdec2a379bc78122816127890f8

If this chart is still relevant, let's make a comparison for segundo volante which attack mindedness and penchant for making a run from deep areas makes him an excelent choice for CA tactic. While this is an old chart, there is no DM position on attack duty, so looking on  support duty for DM player on counter mentality we get from 7 to 8 "individual mentality" depending on chosen shape. Not much considering the scale is from 1 to 20. While on attacking mentality the swing bumps up to 9-14.

And I reiterate that for me the primary characteristic of CA style is quick transitions with urgency in play, and players with higher "individual mentalities" will more likely make the gameflow in such way that is more visually representative of Counter-Attacking football.

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Just thought I'd add my current situation. Bit of a random save, I've taken over a struggling WBA side in the Championship. Squad full of overage players all on the transfer list.

All I want to do before the Jan window is put my hat in the ring...make sure I'm in a position to challenge once I'm able to sign some players

I have very little pace in the side, but I want to play counter attacking football... I'm achieving it by using a top heavy formation (to account for the lack of pace, I'm not going to be able to play deep and burst forward)

I've gone 4231 wide (but with narrow TI). I'm using Counter mentality (nothing to do with the word 'counter' in terms of triggers/behaviour/counter-attack... purely to lower the attacking mentality of my players). I have a top heavy formation so I want to defend from the front.

I'm playing very fluid to further reduce mentality in line with the team philosophy, hopefully make me more compact.

I'm using two attack roles - IFa on the left wing and DLF upfront (offset to LC). I'm using a pressing trap to try and win the ball on the right hand side. There is an AP on the right wing. AM s roaming (offset to the right). WB s on the right

DLP D on the LCM, BWM on RCM.

-------------------------

All this is geared to winning the ball on the right side of the pitch... play in the DLF and IF on the left. This is my counter attack for this particular team. When we don't have the ball we defend as a team. My defence don't commit too much.

So far 9 games unbeaten taken WBA from 14th to 3rd entering the Jan window (Saved and Quit last night on Jan 1st).

----------------------

with the window I plan to sell the unhappy older players who are soaking up the wages.

Bring in some pace to perhaps allow me to attack from deeper positions or switch to a more expensive attacking formation like 442.

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38 minutes ago, westy8chimp said:

Just thought I'd add my current situation. Bit of a random save, I've taken over a struggling WBA side in the Championship. Squad full of overage players all on the transfer list.

All I want to do before the Jan window is put my hat in the ring...make sure I'm in a position to challenge once I'm able to sign some players

I have very little pace in the side, but I want to play counter attacking football... I'm achieving it by using a top heavy formation (to account for the lack of pace, I'm not going to be able to play deep and burst forward)

I've gone 4231 wide (but with narrow TI). I'm using Counter mentality (nothing to do with the word 'counter' in terms of triggers/behaviour/counter-attack... purely to lower the attacking mentality of my players). I have a top heavy formation so I want to defend from the front.

I'm playing very fluid to further reduce mentality in line with the team philosophy, hopefully make me more compact.

I'm using two attack roles - IFa on the left wing and DLF upfront (offset to LC). I'm using a pressing trap to try and win the ball on the right hand side. There is an AP on the right wing. AM s roaming (offset to the right). WB s on the right

DLP D on the LCM, BWM on RCM.

-------------------------

All this is geared to winning the ball on the right side of the pitch... play in the DLF and IF on the left. This is my counter attack for this particular team. When we don't have the ball we defend as a team. My defence don't commit too much.

So far 9 games unbeaten taken WBA from 14th to 3rd entering the Jan window (Saved and Quit last night on Jan 1st).

----------------------

with the window I plan to sell the unhappy older players who are soaking up the wages.

Bring in some pace to perhaps allow me to attack from deeper positions or switch to a more expensive attacking formation like 442.

@Rien102  You were asking me about West Brom the other day.  Here's some ideas for you :thup:.

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1 hour ago, westy8chimp said:

Just thought I'd add my current situation. Bit of a random save, I've taken over a struggling WBA side in the Championship. Squad full of overage players all on the transfer list.

All I want to do before the Jan window is put my hat in the ring...make sure I'm in a position to challenge once I'm able to sign some players

I have very little pace in the side, but I want to play counter attacking football... I'm achieving it by using a top heavy formation (to account for the lack of pace, I'm not going to be able to play deep and burst forward)

I've gone 4231 wide (but with narrow TI). I'm using Counter mentality (nothing to do with the word 'counter' in terms of triggers/behaviour/counter-attack... purely to lower the attacking mentality of my players). I have a top heavy formation so I want to defend from the front.

I'm playing very fluid to further reduce mentality in line with the team philosophy, hopefully make me more compact.

I'm using two attack roles - IFa on the left wing and DLF upfront (offset to LC). I'm using a pressing trap to try and win the ball on the right hand side. There is an AP on the right wing. AM s roaming (offset to the right). WB s on the right

DLP D on the LCM, BWM on RCM.

-------------------------

All this is geared to winning the ball on the right side of the pitch... play in the DLF and IF on the left. This is my counter attack for this particular team. When we don't have the ball we defend as a team. My defence don't commit too much.

So far 9 games unbeaten taken WBA from 14th to 3rd entering the Jan window (Saved and Quit last night on Jan 1st).

----------------------

with the window I plan to sell the unhappy older players who are soaking up the wages.

Bring in some pace to perhaps allow me to attack from deeper positions or switch to a more expensive attacking formation like 442.

There are lots of variations and interpretations of counter attacking football and this is another one of them, which differs from the approach I linked above and what Rashidi did earlier in the thread. None more or less important than the other. It's all relative to what you want to achieve and how you interpret that. There are many different viable ways to achieve things in FM. The post above is great as it shows another side of things and how users differ in their approaches to accomplish something very specific.

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I've had some good success playing counter in my Basque Challenge

As Cleon pointed out, having a narrow-minded view on how counter attacking works in this game won't help you. It is okay sometimes to think a bit outside the box. I got Athletic to a Champions League spot by just using an IF and a Poacher behind a Treq. We didn't dominate possession but we relied on counterattacking and low crosses/through balls to my poacher

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Hi, sorry for not being able to expand my question in the initial post, I was rather pissed off by the weather this weekend and did nothing instead of testing things out on my own. Okay so the thing is this: I was really struggling to pick a long-term save to commit myself to, as I always do, but I had this idea of taking over the bottom team of Premier League in March, when I'd set up the game to boot (I used the Swedish League trick, where you set the starting point of the game to be around March, when the Swedish League actually kicks off). So the team bottom of the table was West Brom. I wasn't very impressed by it because I don't find West Brom an attractive proposition, they have old, slow and pretty poor players, but then I thought hey let's give it a try. Luckily for me, I managed to get through their team rather quick and decided who is decent enough to start the next few games. And as the team was sitting bottom, I thought a counter-attacking brand of football would fit the situation to rack up points and save the club from relegation.

I set-up a 4-4-2 like this, Counter Structured.

 

SJkzGEX.png

 

I didn't use any PIs/TIs, only WM (S) was told to Sit Narrower.

Results wise, lost all four games while I tested the tactic. I actually scored goals, but conceded more. For example, against Brighton who were 17th, we were 2-0 up at HT, ended up losing 2-3 lol. Now, I don't even know how to explain it so you can understand what I mean. People might ask me why did you use an attacking fullback if you want a counter-attacking system, or a box to box midfielder in a 2-men midfield (you're probably right about the B2B I just realized he might be roaming around a lot which could lead to him being out of position to get back in a defensive shape in transitions), but here I was thinking what are we gonna do when we don't counter? That's the essential thing I tried to ask when I made this thread. I assume my team is not always going to sit back and defend and try to launch counter-attacks, especially against bottom half sides so then how are we gonna create chances while maintaining the Counter-Attacking aspect in the tactic?

 

I might add in this particular case, I might have got it wrong like, I used a Box to Box role in this set-up when my central midfielders aren't that great, you could say the same about FB (A), but my left fullback who in this case is Gibbs could get up and down the pitch, he has decent speed, decent stamina and mental attributes, plus I thought the LM could cover for him so I kind of think it was a justified thing to do. But maybe the formation was a bit too much to ask for considering that WBA were bottom and probably were lacking confidence?

Edited by Armistice

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@Cleon Thanks for such detailed response.  I certainly see that my interpretation of CA style is too specific. And yet I take comfort from seeing that my team is using CA effectively both against attacking and defensive sides, and most goals are scored from distinctive CA move. I'll post a report on it maybe next month when I get the game. And I would be very pleased to know your opinion on it.

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1 hour ago, Armistice said:

Hi, sorry for not being able to expand my question in the initial post, I was rather pissed off by the weather this weekend and did nothing instead of testing things out on my own. Okay so the thing is this: I was really struggling to pick a long-term save to commit myself to, as I always do, but I had this idea of taking over the bottom team of Premier League in March, when I'd set up the game to boot (I used the Swedish League trick, where you set the starting point of the game to be around March, when the Swedish League actually kicks off). So the team bottom of the table was West Brom. I wasn't very impressed by it because I don't find West Brom an attractive proposition, they have old, slow and pretty poor players, but then I thought hey let's give it a try. Luckily for me, I managed to get through their team rather quick and decided who is decent enough to start the next few games. And as the team was sitting bottom, I thought a counter-attacking brand of football would fit the situation to rack up points and save the club from relegation.

I set-up a 4-4-2 like this, Counter Structured.

 

SJkzGEX.png

 

I didn't use any PIs/TIs, only WM (S) was told to Sit Narrower.

Results wise, lost all four games while I tested the tactic. I actually scored goals, but conceded more. For example, against Brighton who were 17th, we were 2-0 up at HT, ended up losing 2-3 lol. Now, I don't even know how to explain it so you can understand what I mean. People might ask me why did you use an attacking fullback if you want a counter-attacking system, or a box to box midfielder in a 2-men midfield (you're probably right about the B2B I just realized he might be roaming around a lot which could lead to him being out of position to get back in a defensive shape in transitions), but here I was thinking what are we gonna do when we don't counter? That's the essential thing I tried to ask when I made this thread. I assume my team is not always going to sit back and defend and try to launch counter-attacks, especially against bottom half sides so then how are we gonna create chances while maintaining the Counter-Attacking aspect in the tactic?

 

I might add in this particular case, I might have got it wrong like, I used a Box to Box role in this set-up when my central midfielders aren't that great, you could say the same about FB (A), but my left fullback who in this case is Gibbs could get up and down the pitch, he has decent speed, decent stamina and mental attributes, plus I thought the LM could cover for him so I kind of think it was a justified thing to do. But maybe the formation was a bit too much to ask for considering that WBA were bottom and probably were lacking confidence?

The main thing that stands out to me is your playing 442, the weakness of the formation is no player sitting between the lines due to leaving 2 players up front, but you have more help on the flanks.  You've then used Structured shape (not saying you can never use 442 + Structured) but looking at your roles + duties and knowing your wanting to sit and counter it is risky.  I'd probably have two defend duties to try and get them to sit deeper and screen as best they can with no DM player behind them, then let the front 2 + winger + WM + FB-A do the attacking.  Basically for your plan it looks a bit too attacking + open.

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6 hours ago, Armistice said:

Hi, sorry for not being able to expand my question in the initial post, I was rather pissed off by the weather this weekend and did nothing instead of testing things out on my own. Okay so the thing is this: I was really struggling to pick a long-term save to commit myself to, as I always do, but I had this idea of taking over the bottom team of Premier League in March, when I'd set up the game to boot (I used the Swedish League trick, where you set the starting point of the game to be around March, when the Swedish League actually kicks off). So the team bottom of the table was West Brom. I wasn't very impressed by it because I don't find West Brom an attractive proposition, they have old, slow and pretty poor players, but then I thought hey let's give it a try. Luckily for me, I managed to get through their team rather quick and decided who is decent enough to start the next few games. And as the team was sitting bottom, I thought a counter-attacking brand of football would fit the situation to rack up points and save the club from relegation.

I set-up a 4-4-2 like this, Counter Structured.

 

SJkzGEX.png

 

I didn't use any PIs/TIs, only WM (S) was told to Sit Narrower.

Results wise, lost all four games while I tested the tactic. I actually scored goals, but conceded more. For example, against Brighton who were 17th, we were 2-0 up at HT, ended up losing 2-3 lol. Now, I don't even know how to explain it so you can understand what I mean. People might ask me why did you use an attacking fullback if you want a counter-attacking system, or a box to box midfielder in a 2-men midfield (you're probably right about the B2B I just realized he might be roaming around a lot which could lead to him being out of position to get back in a defensive shape in transitions), but here I was thinking what are we gonna do when we don't counter? That's the essential thing I tried to ask when I made this thread. I assume my team is not always going to sit back and defend and try to launch counter-attacks, especially against bottom half sides so then how are we gonna create chances while maintaining the Counter-Attacking aspect in the tactic?

 

I might add in this particular case, I might have got it wrong like, I used a Box to Box role in this set-up when my central midfielders aren't that great, you could say the same about FB (A), but my left fullback who in this case is Gibbs could get up and down the pitch, he has decent speed, decent stamina and mental attributes, plus I thought the LM could cover for him so I kind of think it was a justified thing to do. But maybe the formation was a bit too much to ask for considering that WBA were bottom and probably were lacking confidence?

You are moving in the right direction but I question the use of a LFB. IMO, that role could kill counters. All it does is hack ball away when he has the ball. If you want a RB that occasionally/never attack, maybe opt for FB (s or d)

 

Also, you need to watch the games a bit closely. Sometimes, you might need to tick an extra PI/TI just to seal the deal. You haven't us a lot of info in how you lose your games also...

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1 hour ago, Jean0987654321 said:

You are moving in the right direction but I question the use of a LFB. IMO, that role could kill counters. All it does is hack ball away when he has the ball. If you want a RB that occasionally/never attack, maybe opt for FB (s or d)

 

Also, you need to watch the games a bit closely. Sometimes, you might need to tick an extra PI/TI just to seal the deal. You haven't us a lot of info in how you lose your games also...

Yes, that's a Defensive Fullback. Because Nyom was out injured, I had to use a CB (Dawson) in RB slot so I tried giving him the least attacking role there is so I thought a Defensive Fullback is that.

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1 hour ago, Armistice said:

Yes, that's a Defensive Fullback. Because Nyom was out injured, I had to use a CB (Dawson) in RB slot so I tried giving him the least attacking role there is so I thought a Defensive Fullback is that.

If you want a Fullback that doesn't attack, I would vouch for a FB on defend. That way they don't try to hack the ball away at every touch

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@Cleon Pardon me for asking you this question as i know that you are busy with many projects and might have answered this question before, but if the trigger for a CA is the number of players between you and your opponent during a turnover then if let’s say i create an exaggerated tactic like a 4-1-5-0 to increase the likelihood of winning the ball during the turnover, would CAs be more reliably triggered?

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Il y a 17 heures, herne79 a dit :

You were asking me about West Brom the other day.  Here's some ideas for you :thup:.

lol.  actually, i took the job 5 years after him, situation has changed a bit but, funnily, I pretty much took the same road :p!

Edited by Rien102

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