Farewell tactics forum

[NabsKebabs]

Thread closed? Really?

Good discussion was going on. No trolling. Already had 3 people PM me saying it's disappointing to see it closed.

I'm still yet to see what I said that was actually incorrect. All I see is mods contradicting themselves. This is why I don't post much on here. Cleon always comes in and starts an argument and thinks he's always correct. Well I have my opinions too. And for some reason, Rashidi is almost scared to agree with me. when pretty much everything I have learned about the game have come from his vidoes and threads/comments on here. He is easily the best FM player out there I have come across. 

Fine then, this forum can just continue being dead and generally crap. 

Goodbye

[summatsupeer]

If you want it reopening I'm sure you could of asked for posts to be removed or moved into a separate topic, especially if you were willing to compromise on the wording of your reasoning of team shape so the same discussion doesn't start again.

If your unhappy about something you PM them about it, you don't go name calling and blaming others.

[westy8chimp]

You kinda were trolling when you are telling two guys who helped integrate 'shape' into the ME that they are wrong. Especially when quoting one of them against themselves!

Just remove your reason for structure and ask to re-open the thread. Like most of us said in that discussion, you have good roles and all looked good. Just minor disagreement about a technicality at the end of the day. Herne was right, shape has caused many a debate ...

[NabsKebabs]

1 minute ago, summatsupeer said:

If you want it reopening I'm sure you could of asked for posts to be removed or moved into a separate topic, especially if you were willing to compromise on the wording of your reasoning of team shape so the same discussion doesn't start again.

If your unhappy about something you PM them about it, you don't go name calling and blaming others.

 

Well I wasn't willing to compromise on the wording of my reasoning for team shape. 

Who are you exactly telling me how to behave anyway? my mum?

Fact is Cleon doesn't understand team shape and he always hijacks my threads and we argue about team shape. I literally repeat what I have learnt from Rashidi (who actually does understand team shape). 

[NabsKebabs]

1 minute ago, westy8chimp said:

You kinda were trolling when you are telling two guys who helped integrate 'shape' into the ME that they are wrong. Especially when quoting one of them against themselves!

Just remove your reason for structure and ask to re-open the thread. Like most of us said in that discussion, you have good roles and all looked good. Just minor disagreement about a technicality at the end of the day. Herne was right, shape has caused many a debate ...

Did you even read the thread?

Cleon was saying shape does not influence transitions at all.

Rashidi acknowledged team shape influences transitions depending on roles/duties

And the best part is I said that the ROLES AND DUTIES GOVERNED MULTIPLE TIMES. I really don't think Rashidi read through the thread properly.  

[Cleon]

Always hijack your threads? Please I don't even know who you are. Don't give yourself that much credit. 

It's strange how you say I don't know how team shape works and Rashidi does when we both say the same things are in agreement with how everything works. We even have a podcast lined up explaining how it works  Considering its a feature we was both involved with when it was implemented to the game. I'm pretty sure we both know how it works.

[ajsr1982]

4 minutes ago, westy8chimp said:

You kinda were trolling when you are telling two guys who helped integrate 'shape' into the ME that they are wrong. Especially when quoting one of them against themselves!

Just remove your reason for structure and ask to re-open the thread. Like most of us said in that discussion, you have good roles and all looked good. Just minor disagreement about a technicality at the end of the day. Herne was right, shape has caused many a debate ...

Maybe he was and maybe he wasn't. However, the manner in which Cleon pointed out his mistake/interpretation was far from constructive. Maybe there's some previous that I'm missing, but taking it at face value, it wasn't a reply which encourages others to learn and improve; in fact it was downright mean-spirited and I think we can all do a bit better.

[MBarbaric]

Hope it is just an impulsive decision as it is always sad to see people go over some difference in opinions. 

As one of these two contacting you, I can say I was sorry to see the thread being closed. Right or wrong, that is down to the discretion of a mod. If you feel it shouldn't be closed, there's a button on the bottom of the page to report the issue.

That being said, I think Cleon didn't attack you and you shouldn't be so defensive. He might have been too direct or whatever, but I don't see it anything more than a difference of opinions. 

And frankly, as I saw it, you were both talking about the same thing from different angles. The shape really doesn't influence if the player holds the ball or dribbles. As everyone acknowledged, this is primarily down to role/duty. For some reason, you both decided to stick to your guns concentrating on difference instead of what you both agree on.

However, shape does influence the likelihood of dribble/run into space. to be more precise, if you have a structured shape, A LW on attack will have higher mentality (higher starting position, possibly more isolated). He is also likely to have "dribble more" instruction. This can create conditions for him to get into more 1v1 situations and more likely to drive forward instigating quick transitions/counter attacks once the ball is won. That is, I guess, what Rashidi refers to in those quotes.

[Cleon]

This forum is something else. Everyone is so ****ing sensitive because people don't sugar coat stuff. How do you all survive in the real world being so sensitive and all that. I wasn't abusive, I wasn't disrespectful and I didn't attack you. I even spent time making sure my replies were informative and detailed too. 

[NabsKebabs]

1 minute ago, Cleon said:

This forum is something else. Everyone is so ****ing sensitive because people don't sugar coat stuff. How do you all survive in the real world being so sensitive and all that.

This forum is garbage because you think you know absolutely everything. You start some good threads but when it comes to comments you're the least constructive person here. Fact is, Rashidi is so much better at the game than you. Maybe that's why you're always so mad. 

[NabsKebabs]

5 minutes ago, MBarbaric said:

Hope it is just an impulsive decision as it is always sad to see people go over some difference in opinions. 

As one of these two contacting you, I can say I was sorry to see the thread being closed. Right or wrong, that is down to the discretion of a mod. If you feel it shouldn't be closed, there's a button on the bottom of the page to report the issue.

That being said, I think Cleon didn't attack you and you shouldn't be so defensive. He might have been too direct or whatever, but I don't see it anything more than a difference of opinions. 

And frankly, as I saw it, you were both talking about the same thing from different angles. The shape really doesn't influence if the player holds the ball or dribbles. As everyone acknowledged, this is primarily down to role/duty. For some reason, you both decided to stick to your guns concentrating on difference instead of what you both agree on.

However, shape does influence the likelihood of dribble/run into space. to be more precise, if you have a structured shape, A LW on attack will have higher mentality (higher starting position, possibly more isolated). He is also likely to have "dribble more" instruction. This can create conditions for him to get into more 1v1 situations and more likely to drive forward instigating quick transitions/counter attacks once the ball is won. That is, I guess, what Rashidi refers to in those quotes.

I am being a bit defensive now, yeah. Maybe because this has happened multiple times. And I've become tired of trying to show how I play the game only for Cleon to hijack the thread. 

[summatsupeer]

11 minutes ago, NabsKebabs said:

Well I wasn't willing to compromise on the wording of my reasoning for team shape. 

Who are you exactly telling me how to behave anyway? my mum?

Fact is Cleon doesn't understand team shape and he always hijacks my threads and we argue about team shape. I literally repeat what I have learnt from Rashidi (who actually does understand team shape). 

Just someone impartial advice from someone who wasn't invested in the discussion and has been around long enough to know mud slinging at other users / mods doesn't get you what you want.

Unless your directly quoting someone, you shouldn't say your interpretation is backed up by them.  I skimmed over it and i'd say you weren't saying the same thing as Rashidi.

Anyway i'm out, hopefully you feel better after venting. 

Goodbye.

[NabsKebabs]

10 minutes ago, Cleon said:

Always hijack your threads? Please I don't even know who you are. Don't give yourself that much credit. 

It's strange how you say I don't know how team shape works and Rashidi does when we both say the same things are in agreement with how everything works. We even have a podcast lined up explaining how it works  Considering its a feature we was both involved with when it was implemented to the game. I'm pretty sure we both know how it works.

Actually you were saying shape doesn't influence transitions. 

Rashidi acknowledged that shape does infact influence on transitions. That's basically what his video on shape was about. How it affects transitions. 

[Cleon]

10 minutes ago, NabsKebabs said:

This forum is garbage because you think you know absolutely everything. You start some good threads but when it comes to comments you're the least constructive person here. Fact is, Rashidi is so much better at the game than you. Maybe that's why you're always so mad. 

Eh? I don't even really post on here anymore and haven't for the best part of 18 months so you're talking ****. You seem to be obsessed with Rashidi and how much better he is at the game than me, am I supposed to be offended or something as its not working .

I guess you might be upset to find out that me and Rashidi have been very good friends for 20+ years 

 

[westy8chimp]

Odds on this thread being locked  

Nabs having an absolute mare ... use a structured approach to encourage a speedy transition to apology mate and it's all done and you can have the other thread unlocked and put back on track.

[ajsr1982]

11 minutes ago, Cleon said:

This forum is something else. Everyone is so ****ing sensitive because people don't sugar coat stuff. How do you all survive in the real world being so sensitive and all that. I wasn't abusive, I wasn't disrespectful and I didn't attack you. I even spent time making sure my replies were informative and detailed too. 

Can you see how writing: 'What you've written is wrong on every level' (or words to that effect) might evoke a negative reaction in someone? 

Even if you're correct, people don't like that.

It's a shame, because the rest of your post was, as you say, detailed and informative.

[westy8chimp]

Just now, westy8chimp said:

use a structured approach to encourage a speedy transition

wait encourage influence... slightly, maybe ... if other dependant criteria are met first

[NabsKebabs]

1 minute ago, westy8chimp said:

Odds on this thread being locked  

Nabs having an absolute mare ... use a structured approach to encourage a speedy transition to apology mate and it's all done and you can have the other thread unlocked and put back on track.

Mate the only thing I'm gonna be using my structured approach for is to release Lacazette away to score goals from fast breaks in my Gunners save. 

[NabsKebabs]

3 minutes ago, ajsr1982 said:

Can you see how writing: 'What you've written is wrong on every level' (or words to that effect) might evoke a negative reaction in someone? 

Even if you're correct, people don't like that.

It's a shame, because the rest of your post was, as you say, detailed and informative.

Cleon is wrong on every level. Playing on structured when the other team is giving away space is probably the best weapon in the game (yes you will need an attack duty or two in the right area(s)).

[ajsr1982]

1 minute ago, NabsKebabs said:

Cleon is wrong on every level. Playing on structured when the other team is giving away space is probably the best weapon in the game (yes you will need an attack duty or two in the right area(s)).

I suspect you're being deliberately provocative. Might be a good idea to sit the next round out, Champ. 

[Cleon]

8 minutes ago, ajsr1982 said:

Can you see how writing: 'What you've written is wrong on every level' (or words to that effect) might evoke a negative reaction in someone? 

Even if you're correct, people don't like that.

It's a shame, because the rest of your post was, as you say, detailed and informative.

Not down to me to worry if someone gets offended or takes something the wrong way, that's down to the person reading. I'm direct, I did nothing wrong. It's not like I then didn't expand and explain why. 

[NabsKebabs]

21 minutes ago, ajsr1982 said:

I suspect you're being deliberately provocative. Might be a good idea to sit the next round out, Champ. 

How? If Cleon thinks I'm wrong on every  level. And I think I'm right (which I do). It makes sense that I then think he is wrong on every level. And I'm not just saying it, I'm explaining why. 

[ajsr1982]

Just now, Cleon said:

Not down to me to worry if someone gets offended or takes something the wrong way, that's down to the person reading. I'm direct, I did nothing wrong. It's not like I then didn't expand and explain why. 

If you take that attitude into the real world, you can probably expect to find yourself on an EDI learning experience sooner or later.

[NabsKebabs]

2 minutes ago, Cleon said:

Not down to me to worry if someone gets offended or takes something the wrong way, that's down to the person reading. I'm direct, I did nothing wrong. It's not like I then didn't expand and explain why. 

I don't have a problem with direct and I'm not easily offended at all either. The thing is you are very often condescending. And I know for a fact I'm not the only one here who thinks that. 

[herne79]

I think everyone needs to take a step back / count to 10 / deep breath / have a few pints / whatever.

Taking things out of context, misquoting/misunderstanding and winding each other up is never going to end well.

Personally I wouldn't like to see you leave the forum @NabsKebabs, you make some great contributions.

[Cleon]

Just now, ajsr1982 said:

If you take that attitude into the real world, you can probably expect to find yourself on an EDI learning experience sooner or later.

Not really, 37 years any never been on one. The fact is, face to face no-one gets offended because they see the tone and see it isn't aggressive. They also see you expand and explain.

Point still stands though, everyone should worry about themselves and not if someone else who isn't them will get offended/upset or take it the wrong way. 

[Cleon]

5 minutes ago, NabsKebabs said:

I don't have a problem with direct and I'm not easily offended at all either. The thing is you are very often condescending. And I know for a fact I'm not the only one here who thinks that. 

It doesn't really matter what other people think. Not everyone likes me or how I post. Not everyone likes you or how you post. That's how life and the world works in general. People see different meanings in everything. Even something that is written down, people read it different ways. 

 

[ajsr1982]

2 minutes ago, Cleon said:

Not really, 37 years any never been on one. The fact is, face to face no-one gets offended because they see the tone and see it isn't aggressive. They also see you expand and explain.

Point still stands though, everyone should worry about themselves and not if someone else who isn't them will get offended/upset or take it the wrong way. 

Well, I don't agree, but that's not the end of the world - I'm sure you'll agree to that at least.

There's nothing wrong with direct, and you're right that things often get taken the wrong way when they're written down. On this occasion however, I thought your tone could have been better.

Anyway, point made. I know you don't agree. Let's move on.

[NabsKebabs]

Just now, herne79 said:

I think everyone needs to take a step back / count to 10 / deep breath / have a few pints / whatever.

Taking things out of context, misquoting/misunderstanding and winding each other up is never going to end well.

Personally I wouldn't like to see you leave the forum @NabsKebabs, you make some great contributions.

Cheers mate but this will be my last. I'd rather just play the game and enjoy that then try and help others and not get taken seriously. 

[Cleon]

2 minutes ago, NabsKebabs said:

Cheers mate but this will be my last. I'd rather just play the game and enjoy that then try and help others and not get taken seriously. 

Be sure to do it in a none condescending way though 

[TheJanitor]

Proof that Shape should be removed from the game 

[Santa Claus]

10 minutes ago, Cleon said:

Point still stands though, everyone should worry about themselves and not if someone else who isn't them will get offended/upset or take it the wrong way. 

Well, this is just not an attitude of a good-natured person. I haven't read the original thread or generally threads in this sub, and I follow you on twitter where you post tons of useful stuff, but yeah, I disagree with what you just said.

[westy8chimp]

@TheJanitor No, just from the forum! I quite like shape. Replace it with a more meaningful PI TI by all means (one with more clarity in the description)...but would be a shame to see it removed as it is a valuable concept IRL.

As a concept it's incredibly easy for me to understand and IRL I would think of it like a badminton doubles team a piece of chord linking them together so that they behave as a team (as one).

In football terms... yes I might be a RB but in a fluid system im connected to 10 other players, so if the ball shifts to the Top left quadrant, I need to shift with the team in that direction.

Structured is players acting more as individuals ... "I'm a RB, I'm staying here to cover any threat ... let the LW deal with that".

Neither is a good or bad approach... just different and will behave either good or bad in line with the rest of the system.

And using that kind of vision I play it into my tactics (albeit it's harder to code that kind of behaviour so in FM it is mentality to be considered and how the team mentality will/won't shift the individuals)

 

[Cleon]

2 minutes ago, Santa Claus said:

Well, this is just not an attitude of a good-natured person. I haven't read the original thread or generally threads in this sub, and I follow you on twitter where you post tons of useful stuff, but yeah, I disagree with what you just said.

It has no reflection on if I'm a good/bad natured person at all. You know nothing about me or the type of person I am. What has happened is you have just took it upon yourself to decide what I'm like in real life as a person. You've just 'assumed' that's all. 

[TheJanitor]

@westy8chimp Yea I was kinda joking. I think it should be clearer in-game though, definitely.

[Cleon]

5 minutes ago, westy8chimp said:

@TheJanitor No, just from the forum! I quite like shape. Replace it with a more meaningful PI TI by all means (one with more clarity in the description)...but would be a shame to see it removed as it is a valuable concept IRL.

As a concept it's incredibly easy for me to understand and IRL I would think of it like a badminton doubles team a piece of chord linking them together so that they behave as a team (as one).

In football terms... yes I might be a RB but in a fluid system im connected to 10 other players, so if the ball shifts to the Top left quadrant, I need to shift with the team in that direction.

Structured is players acting more as individuals ... "I'm a RB, I'm staying here to cover any threat ... let the LW deal with that".

Neither is a good or bad approach... just different and will behave either good or bad in line with the rest of the system.

And using that kind of vision I play it into my tactics (albeit it's harder to code that kind of behaviour so in FM it is mentality to be considered and how the team mentality will/won't shift the individuals)

 

The role/duty of a player coupled with the TI's and the actual tactic shape should dictate all of this. Team shape doesn't really exist in the football world, at least not in the way FM interprets it.  This is where FM becomes outdated because we can't truly set attacking/defensive shapes how you would in a proper football match. We can't set up for certain scenarios happening.

I'm hoping with the expected training changes for FM19 that I think will happen, that we see this improved and see tactics/training become better interlinked allowing us to focus on stuff like transitions and what a player should be doing in different phases of play more accurately. 

[alanschu14]

1 minute ago, Cleon said:

I'm hoping with the expected training changes for FM19 that I think will happen

Has there been any feature discussion for 19 that I've missed? (entirely possible)

[Cleon]

1 minute ago, alanschu14 said:

Has there been any feature discussion for 19 that I've missed? (entirely possible)

No. As I said in the bit you quoted, it's what I think will happen.

[NabsKebabs]

13 minutes ago, Cleon said:

It has no reflection on if I'm a good/bad natured person at all. You know nothing about me or the type of person I am. What has happened is you have just took it upon yourself to decide what I'm like in real life as a person. You've just 'assumed' that's all. 

I don't think it's necessary to start questioning how good a person Cleon is. And I actually agree with him to some extent about the whole "getting offended" thing. I'm not offended at all by anything Cleon has said. People in 2018 are always getting offended and I'm not one of them. The reason I'm making a big deal of things is that I'm tired of starting threads and trying to show how I play the game only for them to be not appreciated. 

Cleon comes across as aggressive and rude to me but he's not exactly going to be straight up offensive or abusive. Also I don't think he means to be aggressive and rude. He just doesn't really realize it. 

[westy8chimp]

2 minutes ago, Cleon said:

, that we see this improved and see tactics/training become better interlinked allowing us to focus on stuff like transitions and what a player should be doing in different phases of play more accurately

Yeh 10 years too late for me now that I only get a few hours a week, at best, to play  would have loved this when I was at Uni when a 10 hour FM session could be classified as 'not really playing today'

Now it kinda makes me anxious as would I ever actually progress a save if I had to take training to another level?

[Cleon]

Just now, westy8chimp said:

Yeh 10 years too late for me now that I only get a few hours a week, at best, to play  would have loved this when I was at Uni when a 10 hour FM session could be classified as 'not really playing today'

Now it kinda makes me anxious as would I ever actually progress a save if I had to take training to another level?

Things can be detailed under the hood but presented in a way that is simple like now. We just need more options and be able to be specific about certain things. It makes very little sense to have training separate from tactics because irl its all part of the overall strategy. It shouldn't be anything that requires micromanaging. 

I guess we kind of have little things like this now with the match training options but it's very limited. This would be great to expand on.

[herne79]

3 minutes ago, westy8chimp said:

Now it kinda makes me anxious as would I ever actually progress a save if I had to take training to another level?

Just delegate it all to the AM .

[Cleon]

3 minutes ago, herne79 said:

Just delegate it all to the AM .

Or give us a proper reason to use a pre-match meeting 

[herne79]

When we start getting into name calling, I draw the line.  I'm now hiding posts - any more and it'll be infractions as well.

[johnnyyakuza78]

I very rarely post here.. mostly a big lurker, and I have not really been paying much attention to the thread in question. I will say that I have often felt that a few of the big hitters on this forum can be a little aggressive when it comes to replying and I have found that pretty off-putting in the past when it comes to discussing matters. Hopefully this sort of thing can be an incentive to hold things in a bit more.

[argenmik]

4 minutes ago, johnnyyakuza78 said:

I very rarely post here.. mostly a big lurker, and I have not really been paying much attention to the thread in question. I will say that I have often felt that a few of the big hitters on this forum can be a little aggressive when it comes to replying and I have found that pretty off-putting in the past when it comes to discussing matters. Hopefully this sort of thing can be an incentive to hold things in a bit more.

i agree with this. some of the content from the "big hitters" is outstanding but ive gone back on a few posts with my opinion only to be completely ridiculed. i wouldnt want to lose their contributions and i know, in general, a thread is much better with their input but i think it can get a tad patronizing. just an opinion. 

[jc577]

I think it was harsh to close @NabsKebabs thread to be perfectly honest; I don’t think he said anything remotely offensive to sanction doing so. Yes, he was assertive in defending his understanding of Team Shape (albeit incorrectly) but even so, he had the right to do so. To be honest, the whole thing is quite sad, as the tactics forums is easily my favourite, and it’s misunderstandings/poor communication like this that have led to its recent inactivity. 

[Cleon]

10 minutes ago, argenmik said:

i agree with this. some of the content from the "big hitters" is outstanding but ive gone back on a few posts with my opinion only to be completely ridiculed. i wouldnt want to lose their contributions and i know, in general, a thread is much better with their input but i think it can get a tad patronizing. just an opinion. 

Can't see any of this in any of your posts you've made at all, I just checked your posting history, unless you have a different account?

 

[themadsheep2001]

The tactics forum has much stricter ruling than other areas. He was misrepresenting one of the mods despite said repeatedly asking him not to. If rashidi hadn't decided to close it at that point, then I would have. 

Now I'm closing this thread. OP can choose to stay or go, but I won't have this going on continue in the tactics forums. 

I suggest all should leave each other well alone