Youth Intake ineffective

[roger redknapp]

39 minutes ago, forameuss said:

But what's the difference?  Your original complaint was that they weren't good enough, none of which changes if they come to you monthly or yearly.

If you were sent batches of reports monthly of players that you could pick and choose to reject from under 15 academy and from national/international scouting that were then on a roster that formed your official intake day...

that would be way more rewarding than the current overnight spawn scenario we have currently.  

I would enable me to ensure the HOYD isn’t bringing me a group of trash youngsters come March. 

It would enable me the player, more of a relationship with my HOYD and make that entire section of the game less hollow.

you can be defensive about this section of the game all you like, but the game has moved towards new social dynamics, training, tactical roles so the odds of this getting an overhaul too is probably likely.  

Its current makeup doesn’t marry up with the depth in almost all other areas of the game, whether you agree or not.

[forameuss]

Just now, roger redknapp said:

If you were sent batches of reports monthly of players that you could pick and choose to reject from under 15 academy and from national/international scouting that were then on a roster that formed your official intake day...

that would be way more rewarding than the current overnight spawn scenario we have currently. 

It would enable me the player, more of a relationship with my HOYD and make that entire section of the game less hollow.

you can be defensive about this section of the game all you like, but the game has moved towards new social dynamics, training, tactical roles so the odds of this getting an overhaul too is probably likely.  

Its current makeup doesn’t marry up with the depth in almost all other areas of the game, whether you agree or not.

 Yeah, I'm being "defensive".  

But clearly you aren't actually reading what I'm saying, so I'll try once more.  Your whole complaint initially was that you didn't get players you believed were of good enough quality. Fine, subjective opinion but you're welcome to have it.  How exactly does your proposed solution help with that?  Given that the main reason the youth intakes are there, other than the obvious, is to balance out the gameworld and keep player counts roughly consistent, you're not going to get more players in, and you're probably not going to get better players in.  You're just adding superficial, obfuscated fluff around the feature.  None of what you're proposing really needs to be coded when it can be created by having a little imagination.

And the game is so inherently shallow in most areas, and often so completely devoid of context or any kind of "narrative" that isn't put in by your own imagination, then it's hard to get worked up about this being singled out to be honest.

[roger redknapp]

This is it’s shallowest area. 

and I am listening to you. To answer your question,  by the build up to an intake happening monthly over the course of a year, being informed that my HOYD and Under18s Manager are attending youth events, and to then receive a prospect list, it would enable me, the player who paid £22.99 for the game,  and who is employing said HOYD at £9k a week, to actually hand pick players for the youth intake.  

It would enable to not accept the dross technique 2 composure 1 that the HOYD rounds up, on his £450,000 salary. 

This would remove the nonsense “preferred formation” or “personality effecting the lottery spawn” from the current HOYD algorithm. 

It may mean that I only have an intake of 8 players, but it’s 8 players I think have a potential future in the sport, at the club or potential resale value.  I couldn’t give a flying **** what the rest of the computer teams intakes do to imitate the depth of what is happening at my club and maintain the playing popultion.  AI teams normally end up with decent intakes a lot anyway. 

Currently, what I end up doing atm, is reloading my save over and over again, until I have 1-4 players worthy of going into my youth team.  Otherwise I would end up with a completely empty reserves. 

Whilst we have made common ground on the fact it is indeed a lottery of sorts. My issue with the current imitation of youth academies on the game, is that the club rep, HOYD, facilities etc should give you a starting 2-3+ balls in the lottery (increased odds of an ok intake)   

Where as it appears the game is not sufficiently intuitive in rewarding the game owner for the consequences of the actions and investments they are putting in.  

And I do have a bit of imagination, I can invest in RPG elements of games, but with this particular element of the game, I can’t get passed the games insufficient formula for determining intakes. It just doesn’t satisfy.

[roger redknapp]

another way of solving some of the issue, would be to actually increase the average stats of youth players.  

Not so there’s an unrealistic amount of quality players coming through each year.. 

but that physical, mental and technical stats for the most part represent a baseline level that would realistically represent a 15 year old who has convinced his parents, his coach, and my HOYD that he might be....a Footballer.

instead of filling the intakes with players with ridiculous poor stats,  perhaps increase the average stats, but then make the ability to judge the potential of improvement a little less clear. 

 

The exact same gripe could be had on Fifa career mode, where there is a fundamental problem with youth players having non existent physical stats. Whereas pace is actually in abundance in modern youth football. 

[santy001]

At a big club, with a good HOYD, with good facilities, in a good nation you have all the advantages you'll ever need for a good player to come through.

There's really not much else to be said, as honestly it mostly comes across as nonsense and you just wanting to have better players because you think you should have better players.

- - -

Some general information though.

Attributes are considered for professional footballers, the 1 of the 1-20 band doesn't mean a 5 year old who's learned how to kick a ball, a 1 doesn't mean a high school kid who plays for his school team, a 1 doesn't mean could do a job in a sunday league pub team, a 1 is better than all of those. By some measure.

So when a teenager comes through with a handful of attributes below [insert arbitrary number here] it still means he's very good for what he is, a teenager. The reality is, utilised correctly any player who has a PA of 120+ could well go on to be a top flight player in any league. If the player has the right spread of attributes, and you're a really good manager you can even see players at maybe as far down as 100+ being functional. The development cycle is sufficiently nuanced (and ever improving) that players don't have to come through as gods of football at 16 to stand a chance. 

Pace is also a very good one that you mention to demonstrate a degree of flawed thinking, having had to watch youngsters for years now its been a tough one to replicate. There are indeed some fast players in youth football, yet in an enormous amount of cases that pace seems to translate poorly to professional, senior football. I've spent years watching players leave everyone for dead in youth football, only to look like they're running through treacle when they play with seniors. They aren't any slower than they were a week ago in the u21's but, the better shape, the better pressing, the faster pace of the game itself prevents the players from opening up. It renders them unable to really deploy that speed in a meaningful way. 

[Just-Wool]

I'd be happy, honestly if instead of the intake we had now, the intake happens at 12/13 years old and we had an u16 and u14 team. This would enable me to develop them earlier and more tailored to my first team, rather than the simulation of it happening based on your rankings.

 

It needs to be said though, in real life clubs can't just pick and choose like 1 or 2 per year that'll make the grade and discard the rest. The academy system still needs enough players in each age group to function and play a game of football. 

What the current intake system does really is simulate everything in the schoolboy contract phase of the academy and the players that you see are the ones that have graduated that year. Some will make the grade, others won't and they were only there to make up the numbers or got given more time but ultimately did not develop.

It'd be nicer to be able to see these a lot earlier though, Barca first team coaches would have been monitoring Messi through the whole academy from when he turned up. 

This would result in much larger databases, half full of children though, so it'd be a big undertaking.

 

[alanschu14]

I got this player with Kaiserslautern after the first season (promoted from Third Division). By the time he was eligible to play for the first team (17 by Jan 1st), he was probably already better than anyone else on my team lol. This is FM2019

 

I was super sad to lose him to Real Madrid but I did sell him for €45m with a 50% of next sale.

I've had some other real solid looking youngsters come through too.

He is crushing the U19 league and led the U19 Champions League in goal scoring (of which my U19 team won).

Here's screen caps of his offensive technical, mental, and physical skills that I want to see growth in:

 

The only real fault I see is I'd like his work rate to be higher, but he was no where near first team when he came into my youth intake, but was still solid. As a 15 year old he put in 11 goals. As a 16-17 year old he put in 37 goals and helped win the U19 league. This year he put in 33 goals, but didn't play as much as my U19 manager makes sure the kids all get minutes and my youth team is probably a bit bloated at the moment (several will likely go on loan or to my 2nd team next season). We finished 2nd by 1 point in the U19 league and won the U19 Champions League. He has grown *a lot* as a player and is probably as a good as my #2 striker now, but 4 years younger and seemingly a fair bit more room to grow.

Here's his improvement since he was a 16 year old (note that he'll likely see accelerated growth once he starts playing in the Bundesliga too). Several attributes going up by 3-5 points. Strength by 6.

 

This is my 19 Team. Most players are not close to 3* CA though I do have some hefty potential players. (Bollen, Polat, and Ostrak are not from my youth system though... they were young players playing in smaller leagues I bought to help stack my prospects).

 

Islami and Marasco will probably start seeing more First Team minutes (Islami got a handful of games) with U19 to maintain match fitness. Players like Bollen and Polat will either go out on loan or have me make space for them in the first team as well. Moberg and Ostrak seem to have peaked. I have loaned them both out with optional fees if the other teams would like. I will probably try to sell both, but definitely Ostrak.

 

And as they're all 17-19 years old, there's still a lot of potential to grow a lot of attribute points. Here's my best player, an import from Ivory Coast, and he just turned 21. Here's his attribute growth over the past two seasons (UI won't let me filter to his 18 or 19 year old seasons for some reason). If Marasco can see similar development he'll probably be one of the best strikers in the whole Bundesliga.

 

 

[roger redknapp]

17 hours ago, monkeywool said:

I'd be happy, honestly if instead of the intake we had now, the intake happens at 12/13 years old and we had an u16 and u14 team. This would enable me to develop them earlier and more tailored to my first team, rather than the simulation of it happening based on your rankings.

 

It needs to be said though, in real life clubs can't just pick and choose like 1 or 2 per year that'll make the grade and discard the rest. The academy system still needs enough players in each age group to function and play a game of football. 

What the current intake system does really is simulate everything in the schoolboy contract phase of the academy and the players that you see are the ones that have graduated that year. Some will make the grade, others won't and they were only there to make up the numbers or got given more time but ultimately did not develop.

It'd be nicer to be able to see these a lot earlier though, Barca first team coaches would have been monitoring Messi through the whole academy from when he turned up. 

This would result in much larger databases, half full of children though, so it'd be a big undertaking.

 

If you got monthly report so to select candidates for it then the youth intake it would make it feel less random, and wouldn’t bloat the database 

[allezdae]

5 minutes ago, roger redknapp said:

If you got monthly report so to select candidates for it then the youth intake it would make it feel less random, and wouldn’t bloat the database 

Can you not just imagine that's what your HOYD is doing all season and then presenting you with the results each year?

Would you then start saying "I'm Real Madrid, we should be producing 5* PA youngsters every month with technique above 11, and look at March, I only got two centre backs who are rubbish".

[Just-Wool]

1 hour ago, roger redknapp said:

If you got monthly report so to select candidates for it then the youth intake it would make it feel less random, and wouldn’t bloat the database 

Yeah but that doesn't happen in academies. Clubs give the kids a whole year when they sign and renew/reject at the end of the season. They don't have a monthly keep/don't keep session with the first team manager.

The first team manager is rarely involved in this because he is generally not an expert at youth development. The Head of Youth Development is. They talk about how it's going, how the prospects are getting along and what he's looking for when they are ready but the head is in control.

Now some clubs are integrating their training facilities with youth teams so the first team manager can be more involved in the youth system, or at least able to monitor them and have a a closer relationship with their academy staff, hence why I suggested we should be having intakes as early as 12 and viewable squads down to that level (if you request the board to integrate your youth and first team facilities) but it's still a long way off the manager deciding whether a 15 year old will make the cut based off a monthly cut list. 

In essence what we have now is you doing that when your player "graduates" from the u16 section and is either ready for a scholarship or to be cut loose. That's the decision you make currently.

[itay.bing]

regarding your previous posts about real madrid's youth CB, real madrid castilla are currently 5th in the spanish third division. according to transfermarkt, the team's average age is 20.6 years old. no player is over 21 or under 18. so, if you manage to get him to be a spanish third division player in 4 years of development, he is on par with what real currently has, which seems well within possible to me. you probably haven't heard any of their names, aside for luca zidan, and not for his footballing genius. i wouldn't be surprised if solari can't remember the names of more than 5 players in the team, nevertheless u16ers', and highly doubt he interferes in the u12's individual training schedule. 

On 07/01/2019 at 16:12, roger redknapp said:

another way of solving some of the issue, would be to actually increase the average stats of youth players.  

Not so there’s an unrealistic amount of quality players coming through each year.. 

but that physical, mental and technical stats for the most part represent a baseline level that would realistically represent a 15 year old who has convinced his parents, his coach, and my HOYD that he might be....a Footballer.

the amount of quality players coming through each year is unrealistic right now. there were several posts on this forum comparing current the amount of player with PA\CA over high levels of PA (120, 150, 180 etc) for current and future (all regen) world, that showed that regens were overpowered compared to real players, whether PA wise (meaning that even with lower rates of reaching that PA for the AI, the human manager would have an easier time developing his own regens) and CA wise (meaning the world is generally filled with better players than real life).

here is one, though i remember a few more that i can't find. if someone can find any of them and attach them too it would be appreciated. i specifically remember one based on nations (where brazil produced 80 wonderkids instead of current 30 or something like that) and another big one similar too the one below but that simulated intake day 50 times or something like that.

 

[sedge11]

On ‎03‎/‎01‎/‎2019 at 11:19, roger redknapp said:

 

On ‎03‎/‎01‎/‎2019 at 11:42, roger redknapp said:

Technique 3...

There's nothing wrong with that newgen at all, he would develop well and be a great defender for a lot of people.

You have focused on his technique being 3, but he's a defender, a lot of centre halfs don't have the best technique, your looking at it all wrong, as a centre half you look at tackling, marking etc.

You have the main areas highlighted for a central defender, in which he has good attributes for a 16 year old. 14 tackling when only just come through the youth intake, is already alot better than a lot of centre halfs in the game. Just train him on his positioning, then his physical attributes and he will be great. He's also great with both feet.

If he is the sort of newgen you been talking about rejecting and trying to say the whole youth intake is broken, then that's your problem, but I know myself and a lot of people would be happy with him, and could develop him into a great defender.

 

[KlaaZ]

I just read through this entire thread, and I would just like to say wow.

What's the potential star rating of that defender by the way? By the looks of your screenshot, it's at least 1.5, possibly two. Which means he could be (at least) close to as good as your current CB's.

Could you also post a picture of your entire youth intake including potential stars?  Because it does feel like you're hiding those on purpose. 

[gavinski33]

I had a question about youth intakes, might as well throw it on this bonfire of a thread.

I've just convinced my board to upgrade and more upgrade my youth scouting so it's now 'extensive'. Rest of the teams in Northern Ireland aren't even close to that. So my query is, does my YR rating negatively affect their intake? I mean, does a higher rating purely create better prospects from my own individual group of players or is there an unseen nationwide pool that I get to plunder to better effect than the other teams?

I think I've explained what I mean correctly. Say that now I get to take players from farther afield than just Belfast and I get a 5* prospect from Coleraine, would that rob the Coleraine team of a 5* prospect?

 

[LukasZ_VCF]

Is there a way to get later in the game players like for example LB/RB with good crossing, dribbling I mean offensive side defenders ?

 

it seems like the game is making very strict, one dimensional players and we will not be able to find players like real players now ? like for example Trent Alexander-Arnold?

[KlaaZ]

57 minutes ago, LukasZ_VCF said:

Is there a way to get later in the game players like for example LB/RB with good crossing, dribbling I mean offensive side defenders ?

 

it seems like the game is making very strict, one dimensional players and we will not be able to find players like real players now ? like for example Trent Alexander-Arnold?

Retrain players. Trent Alexander-Arnold was developed as a midfielder in Liverpool's academy.  

[Neotropolis]

8 hours ago, LukasZ_VCF said:

Is there a way to get later in the game players like for example LB/RB with good crossing, dribbling I mean offensive side defenders ?

 

it seems like the game is making very strict, one dimensional players and we will not be able to find players like real players now ? like for example Trent Alexander-Arnold?

You train them they way you want them from when they join you. No 16yr academy graduate should be ready for the first team instantly.

[LukasZ_VCF]

7 hours ago, KlaaZ said:

Retrain players. Trent Alexander-Arnold was developed as a midfielder in Liverpool's academy.  

1.So what position I should play if I have for example right defender with weak dribbling and crossing ?

2. You mean retrain position of player that is already develop and have good crossing and dribbling, or train young player who have a lot of CA points unused yet ?

3. So theoretically If you have player with higher PA lets say 200 PA you can make him the player you want him to be ? The way of them developing is not hard written from the day they were created (regens/newgens) ?

 

Will I be able to make him a offensive fullback, wing back ?

[LukasZ_VCF]

8 hours ago, KlaaZ said:

Retrain players. Trent Alexander-Arnold was developed as a midfielder in Liverpool's academy.  

1.So what position I should play if I have for example right defender with weak dribbling and crossing ?

2. You mean retrain position of player that is already develop and have good crossing and dribbling, or train young player who have a lot of CA points unused yet ?

3. So theoretically If you have player with higher PA lets say 200 PA you can make him the player you want him to be ? The way of them developing is not hard written from the day they were created (regens/newgens) ?

 

Will I be able to make him a offensive fullback, wing back ?

@Neotropolis

 

Sorry for 2 posts I had an error

[itay.bing]

7 hours ago, LukasZ_VCF said:

Will I be able to make him a offensive fullback, wing back ?

depending on level of play. you might be better off focusing on his crossing and off the ball and less on dribbling (as his low flair already means he won't be the next marcelo). his technique is already very good and his passing and first touch are decent. if you manage to increase his crossing and off the ball to a level good enough for you, you might want to train and instruct him to avoid dribbling but go forwards, so he'll be up but will favor crossing or recycling over dribbling. you'd also want to make sure he gets the ball on the run and that he doesn't start too far up (in which case he'll likely face a 1v1 or 1v2 situation), while also having a simple passing option (so he'll have a way out of dribbling situations).

[LukasZ_VCF]

18 minutes ago, itay.bing said:

depending on level of play. you might be better off focusing on his crossing and off the ball and less on dribbling (as his low flair already means he won't be the next marcelo). his technique is already very good and his passing and first touch are decent. if you manage to increase his crossing and off the ball to a level good enough for you, you might want to train and instruct him to avoid dribbling but go forwards, so he'll be up but will favor crossing or recycling over dribbling. you'd also want to make sure he gets the ball on the run and that he doesn't start too far up (in which case he'll likely face a 1v1 or 1v2 situation), while also having a simple passing option (so he'll have a way out of dribbling situations).

yea but how to improve crossing? it can't be done by individual training and you mean off the ball not positioning ? do I have to traing his position as a winger?

I play in Spanish league with Valencia.

[bleventozturk]

Most newgen fullbacks are considered best as 'defensive fullback' when they are 16-20 years old, because of their naturally lower mental attributes at those ages. As they get older they will become more suitable for a more versatile role. If you check the original database, it is the same for the 'real' young fullbacks. Like mentioned above, if you really want a fullback with 14-15+ dribbling and crossing, you will need to retrain some wingers that have some decent defensive skills. 

The attributes below are considered vital in the ME for a fullback to perform well at wingback (s) role:

Decisions, positioning, off the ball, teamwork, work rate, stamina

These will all improve with age.

 

[JordanMilly]

1 hour ago, LukasZ_VCF said:

yea but how to improve crossing? it can't be done by individual training and you mean off the ball not positioning ? do I have to traing his position as a winger?

I play in Spanish league with Valencia.

You make sure to be training him in a role that includes Crossing, and utilise training programs that include crossing.

[iiMStevo]

On 06/05/2018 at 09:22, roger redknapp said:

I understand the * ratings are relative to quality of the first team squad. 

But I can compare my facilities and my HOYD to other teams, and watching on various reloads of the intake day what is happening at my club and what is happening at others, I’m seeing players spawning that would be a 3* quality at my club spawning at other clubs, and I’m getting dross.

The current youth development format is unrewarding, convoluted and completely random spawning. 

Even down to a staff members personality and preferred formation affecting an intake, it’s not really realistic. A paid member of staff should be learning and buying into YOUR teams philosophy not his own, and finding players based on that. Especially considering you know, you did rise from Vanrama North to challenging the Prem maybe your ideas are better than his? 

I think the entire thing needs a complete overhaul so you have more control over intake. They should have a pre intake database where regens pool in, that you can get to scouting for your intake or academy, rather than it being completely random spawning which is exactly what it is.

 

I may be wrong here... but your youth generation is dependent on what you had 3-4 seasons ago, since the players that typically come through your youth system are either already "Trained at club (15-21)" or are about due to be in a year or two. So, in order for you to start reaping the benefits, you need to be looking 2-3 seasons ahead with your youth recruitment and training.
Again, I may be wrong, but... I'm sure the U18 coaching staff have nothing to do with what your regens will have ability-wise. These are players that are training in your hidden youth setup which is defined solely by your Youth Recruitment, Junior Coaching, your Reputation and Nation, and any Affiliate clubs that you have setup where youth players may join your club. Finally the last thing that contributes to deciding the players is your Head of Youth Development, which I believe needs to be 20/20 in Judging Ability and Potential, highly rated in Man Mangement and Working with Youngsters (15+), and have a positive personality (like Model Citizen, Resolute, Model Professional etc...)

 

I've also found that other clubs will generally tend to get better regens if you're "ahead of the curve" in order to make the game more difficult. For example, I'm playing as Manchester United and I've dominated the league, UCL, domestic cups, International club championship etc... and in the last 6 years, I've got a net transfer spend of £30m (probably less now since I just sold Paul Pogba for £92m at age 31 almost 32) yet Manchester City have a net spend over £1bn, Chelsea over £1.4bn, Liverpool over £800m... and I was a couple of years ago slipping into a negative bank balance. The game gives the AI managers unconditional bonuses and regens is likely another one to add into the mix if you're performing a lot better than the game expects you should be.

 

EDIT: just seen how old this thread is... and it's on the main page lol. Shouldn't an admin have locked it by now?

[itay.bing]

1 hour ago, LukasZ_VCF said:

yea but how to improve crossing? it can't be done by individual training and you mean off the ball not positioning ? do I have to traing his position as a winger?

i have 17, you'll have to ask someone else for 19. there's a training thread in this forum, ask there and you might get some help. also, off the ball is offensive, positioning is defensive.

[Snorks]

23 hours ago, LukasZ_VCF said:

Is there a way to get later in the game players like for example LB/RB with good crossing, dribbling I mean offensive side defenders ?

 

it seems like the game is making very strict, one dimensional players and we will not be able to find players like real players now ? like for example Trent Alexander-Arnold?

Alex-Ox is the player he is now BECAUSE of the coaching he has received through his years in the Academy and in Junior football.

At 15 years old, his attributes (in FM terms) may well have made him look one-dimensional but his coaching team have worked with him to develop into the player he is today.

This is also, funnily enough, how it works in FM - you get the basis in the youth intake, the way your youth staff train them and develop them is what turns them into the players you need for the first team.

[Gee_Simpson]

On 09/01/2019 at 00:42, alanschu14 said:

I got this player with Kaiserslautern after the first season (promoted from Third Division). By the time he was eligible to play for the first team (17 by Jan 1st), he was probably already better than anyone else on my team lol. This is FM2019

 

I was super sad to lose him to Real Madrid but I did sell him for €45m with a 50% of next sale.

I've had some other real solid looking youngsters come through too.

He is crushing the U19 league and led the U19 Champions League in goal scoring (of which my U19 team won).

Here's screen caps of his offensive technical, mental, and physical skills that I want to see growth in:

 

The only real fault I see is I'd like his work rate to be higher, but he was no where near first team when he came into my youth intake, but was still solid. As a 15 year old he put in 11 goals. As a 16-17 year old he put in 37 goals and helped win the U19 league. This year he put in 33 goals, but didn't play as much as my U19 manager makes sure the kids all get minutes and my youth team is probably a bit bloated at the moment (several will likely go on loan or to my 2nd team next season). We finished 2nd by 1 point in the U19 league and won the U19 Champions League. He has grown *a lot* as a player and is probably as a good as my #2 striker now, but 4 years younger and seemingly a fair bit more room to grow.

Here's his improvement since he was a 16 year old (note that he'll likely see accelerated growth once he starts playing in the Bundesliga too). Several attributes going up by 3-5 points. Strength by 6.

 

This is my 19 Team. Most players are not close to 3* CA though I do have some hefty potential players. (Bollen, Polat, and Ostrak are not from my youth system though... they were young players playing in smaller leagues I bought to help stack my prospects).

 

Islami and Marasco will probably start seeing more First Team minutes (Islami got a handful of games) with U19 to maintain match fitness. Players like Bollen and Polat will either go out on loan or have me make space for them in the first team as well. Moberg and Ostrak seem to have peaked. I have loaned them both out with optional fees if the other teams would like. I will probably try to sell both, but definitely Ostrak.

 

And as they're all 17-19 years old, there's still a lot of potential to grow a lot of attribute points. Here's my best player, an import from Ivory Coast, and he just turned 21. Here's his attribute growth over the past two seasons (UI won't let me filter to his 18 or 19 year old seasons for some reason). If Marasco can see similar development he'll probably be one of the best strikers in the whole Bundesliga.

 

 

Nice gains mate. Are these through using your own custom made training schedules or do you leave it to your assistant manager?

[LukasZ_VCF]

9 hours ago, Snorks said:

Alex-Ox is the player he is now BECAUSE of the coaching he has received through his years in the Academy and in Junior football.

At 15 years old, his attributes (in FM terms) may well have made him look one-dimensional but his coaching team have worked with him to develop into the player he is today.

This is also, funnily enough, how it works in FM - you get the basis in the youth intake, the way your youth staff train them and develop them is what turns them into the players you need for the first team.

But are they have a limit in 1 stat for example max speed for some or anyone can get to 20/20 ? If I will put for example many training sessions with pace, passing I will receive later players like that ?

 

btw. how to find the best coaches for U-19 ?

@alanschu14

67mln Euro at 19 y.old ?:O how did u make him like that? I have 20/20 probably now everything and good coaches maybe even the best in Spain according to the charts and can't get them to be like that

 

So theoretically every player with really high PA and very young age like 16y.o. can be made like real good players? For example RB with higher potential than Trent Alexander-Arnold can get similiar stats like him ?

[RBKalle]

As said months ago, I think the Youth Intake system needs a overhaul. Or at least a better explaination, if the former is out of question.

 

I mean: logic dictates that we spend lots of money on top-level facilities, extensive scouting net, youth recruitement and on a HoYD with the highest attributes (and a six-figures wage). It turns out those factors are marginal at best during what has basically been outed as a LOTTERY, where all the aforementioned, expensive, improvements are merely "a couple of extra tickets".

I know it's unrealistic to expect Messi-esque newgens at every intake, and I concur that no 16yo should EVER be ready to walk into a Top Clubs starting XI (can happen in lower leagues or in smaller nations, but still relatively rare).
However, what the game is sorely missing ATM is what I call the "middle class" of youth intake.

Players with ok or good potential, possibly with decent starting attributes (or at least with a "workable distribution" that are worth 2-3 years of moderate investement (basic wage) to be nurtured into ok professional players one tier (or even two) below the club's level.

Instead most subpar newgens get released at the end of the trial and retire shortly after because of the usual Reputation Gap. LL clubs don't make an offer because the player's rep is too high. Player will expect offers from better clubs, but it won't happen because the player's CA/PPA/Rep aren't high enough for those clubs... So it's a vicious circle that will break only if the player rots on the free agents list long enough for his rep to drop. Too bad his growth will have stagnated anyway, making him a less appealing signing anyway.

Also, some of the newgen templates are just AWFUL... Stuff that you wouldn't accept at any professional club that has invested millions on a state-of-the-art youth setup.

A 500k p/y HoYD should never have the nerve to present us a 16yo CB with 4 Concentration, 6 Strength and 8 Tackling. Or a "promising" AMC with 14 Passing but 7 First Touch. Or, one of my all-time favourites, a CM with 14 Pace and Acc but <10 in First Touch, Passing and Technique.

It's like... are you blind or what? Can't you see those "hot prospects" are flawed or not really suitable for their position?

I expect a top-level Youth Setup to "fix" those inconsistencies long before the youth intake is presented to me... They're supposed to be the BEST our academy has found/trained for a specific class, so I'd at least want them to be ADEQUATE for the position they play. I can live with a situation where we don't churn out First Teamers year in and year out, but let's at least have presentable players we can later sell for 500k to our feeder clubs one or two tiers below.

 

[forameuss]

3 hours ago, RBKalle said:

As said months ago, I think the Youth Intake system needs a overhaul. Or at least a better explaination, if the former is out of question.

I mean: logic dictates that we spend lots of money on top-level facilities, extensive scouting net, youth recruitement and on a HoYD with the highest attributes (and a six-figures wage). It turns out those factors are marginal at best during what has basically been outed as a LOTTERY, where all the aforementioned, expensive, improvements are merely "a couple of extra tickets".

"Outed" - in caps no less - as a lottery?  That suggests that it some point it wasn't completely obvious that that was what it was.  It's almost like it's designed as such because - for what this game is concerned with at least - that's exactly how it is in real life.

But by all means, let's just melt down a serviceable system into a game of top trumps where you can improve facilities and get 170PA players out each year.  How thrilling.

[RBKalle]

1 ora fa, forameuss ha scritto:

"Outed" - in caps no less - as a lottery?  That suggests that it some point it wasn't completely obvious that that was what it was.  It's almost like it's designed as such because - for what this game is concerned with at least - that's exactly how it is in real life.

You'd expect that a top club that invests millions per year on youth scouting, recruitment and training, with equally expensive staff and facilities would at least have a better decent/dross ratio than the local club that sends a guy looking for potential signings at the two super-amateur sides who train twice a week on a gravel pitch.

 

Quote

But by all means, let's just melt down a serviceable system into a game of top trumps where you can improve facilities and get 170PA players out each year.  How thrilling.

But by all means, let's just make up stuff I've never said just to defend your side without even bothering to try to understand a word I said! How convenient.

If you want to counter my point, please at least take the time to READ what I wrote instead of sticking the fingers in your ears and going "la la la, several PA 170 newgens every year!"

[santy001]

There are some massive issues when it comes to youth football.

Firstly, its a very ill-defined area of football. In each country its different, there are different rules and principles that govern it. Clubs have to operate under very different restrictions, very different conditions and this massively impacts upon a clubs ability to operate. Not to mention, youth football has some very cynical and dodgy practices embedded in its vagueness. Just recently Liverpool got into a fair bit of trouble trying to poach a youngster from Stoke with the offer of private school fees. 

For English clubs (it may be different for Scottish/Welsh) there tends to be geographical and time limitations on travel that have a huge impact on where clubs can get youngsters from.

That pretty much covers the catchment area for Stoke. Sheffield, Chesterfield and Doncaster (east of the peak district in general) are probably cut off due to time spent travelling, and the same might also be true of Leicester & Coventry but with some give and take that's where Stoke can look at for youngsters.

I'd contend with the saturation of clubs in this area, and the fact they're all pumping money into it (Stoke have pumped enough money in to buy category 1 academy status, rather than earning it on previous player development and such) so just in the small part of the world that is England - how can any of the clubs in the area you can see here reliably turn their academy into producing good quality players? Furthermore, what if a player is good, really good - but his parents aren't able/willing to let him travel to [insert big club name here] academy to develop and instead keep him at [small club name here] instead? That's a reality, a lot of opportunities are missed that way for players and clubs. Especially with the recent clampdown (again in England) on inducing parents to make the transfers of their children.

- - -

When you widen it out on a global level, with all the different variances in countries and such personally I don't see SI ever being able to create an accurate reality for youth football. Given there's a lot of practices SI would never likely adopt either (agents being involved in youth transfers and that still shady area of ownership being a prime example) because of their distastefulness and generally the fact they're pretty wrong youth production will likely always feel a bit superficial in some aspects.

- - -

As for the types of players, well it feels like there is still misrepresenting the gap between 1 and 20 compared with normal man on the street and 1 going on. For some attributes its more tangible than others. I'm of the belief SI should never provide any kind of data that makes it possible to simulate outcomes in the match engine remotely, should never give up the workings of the math behind the game but all the attributes do at their core is surely increase the percentages of something succeeding. No attribute works in a vacuum, so maybe in some cases a 20 attribute in one field could increase the chance by 25% compared to an attribute rating of 1. In others it might only be low single figures.

I'm far more in favour of SI obscuring more stuff, because I don't feel like its particularly relevant a criticism that 16 year olds have erratic stats, to me personally it feels wrong that youngsters are being categorised in attributes that primarily are for senior footballers when in reality at 16 you're still 3+ years away from regular senior football.

Perhaps this could be fixed with "silver" attributes, like they did with star ratings for youngsters, but that would be an awful lot of work for not an awful lot of gain. Perhaps what would better would be something more akin to attribute masking until they've hit an arbitrary amount of senior appearances (around 100?) or until they've hit a certain age. That way, the players come through and can be highly rated by your staff and you either take that guidance with reports that provide some vague insights and then wait until you can really see what you've got on your hands.

[forameuss]

43 minutes ago, RBKalle said:

You'd expect that a top club that invests millions per year on youth scouting, recruitment and training, with equally expensive staff and facilities would at least have a better decent/dross ratio than the local club that sends a guy looking for potential signings at the two super-amateur sides who train twice a week on a gravel pitch.

But by all means, let's just make up stuff I've never said just to defend your side without even bothering to try to understand a word I said! How convenient.

If you want to counter my point, please at least take the time to READ what I wrote instead of sticking the fingers in your ears and going "la la la, several PA 170 newgens every year!"

I'm not going to reiterate the same point I've made through the entire thread - particularly when apparently it draws cries of OUTED.

But when you're saying that at the very least, you want to develop players you can sell off for 500k, then you've clearly lost grip with the reality you're trying to model.  Do you really see that as being a realistic outcome for every youth intake?

And the first part isn't even true either.  In the real world, the likely progression is that your "200PA" players are scattered amongst the world.  If their talent is noticed early, they'll probably be noticed at some "super-amateur" side like you mention.  They'll then likely be brought into a larger club, either a higher profile youth side or, as appears to be apparent nowadays, added to the massive trawler sent out by bigger clubs so that they can have ranks of hundreds of kids who will likely never make it.  This is likely all happening before you even come to the age FM brings youths into the world.

So what are we supposed to do to model that in game?  I guess if you're being 100% true to life, you're going to have small clubs full of absolute jobbers (because big clubs have already stolen them) and the bigger clubs with intakes of hundreds of players, most of which are similarly dross, dotted with players that might be, what, 140PA?  Because superstars are incredibly rare, so even under that system you'd likely not get one.  So basically, no point in investing anything in facilities at a low level, because bigger clubs will get the players anyway.

Instead, the game condenses the process, as though the players themselves don't exist before intake day (because what would be the point otherwise?).  Big clubs are then free to put the trawlers out to make up for the shortfalls in their own system, which happen in real life and in game.  They're keeping it as realistic as they can while still fitting with the structure of the game.  They're never going to be able to replicate wee Johnny Bloggs starting out for his local youth club before being picked up by a big club academy at the age of 12.

[WillHoward42]

On 12/01/2019 at 19:59, sedge11 said:

 

There's nothing wrong with that newgen at all, he would develop well and be a great defender for a lot of people.

You have focused on his technique being 3, but he's a defender, a lot of centre halfs don't have the best technique, your looking at it all wrong, as a centre half you look at tackling, marking etc.

You have the main areas highlighted for a central defender, in which he has good attributes for a 16 year old. 14 tackling when only just come through the youth intake, is already alot better than a lot of centre halfs in the game. Just train him on his positioning, then his physical attributes and he will be great. He's also great with both feet.

If he is the sort of newgen you been talking about rejecting and trying to say the whole youth intake is broken, then that's your problem, but I know myself and a lot of people would be happy with him, and could develop him into a great defender.

 

I have spent the best part of two hours reading through this entire thread.

I have to agree... these regens are more than capable of developing into a world class player let alone a squad player.

It all depends on how much you want to work with these players.

As stated above, no player IRL is ready packaged to go in the top flight and even those exceptions, Rooney most notable, still required plenty of training and coaching before he was anywhere near top level standards.

a 5 star potential should be rare as they don't pop up in the real world that often.

I would also like to say haven been 8 seasons into a career with Everton, the influx in 3 and 4 star current ability players is insane in that there are probably far too many players with extremely high attributes in game to when you start off.

You may or may not see these players through your system... but if you never develop them then you won't ever find out.

I can only agree that the expectations are far too high with some people in getting a 'decent' youth intake. As many have said, most intakes are good you just have to work with the players you've got... and also let's not forget, a lot of players can always over perform despite what you might think to be 'average' attributes.

[Snorks]

11 hours ago, LukasZ_VCF said:

But are they have a limit in 1 stat for example max speed for some or anyone can get to 20/20 ? If I will put for example many training sessions with pace, passing I will receive later players like that ?

So theoretically every player with really high PA and very young age like 16y.o. can be made like real good players? For example RB with higher potential than Trent Alexander-Arnold can get similiar stats like him ?

Yeah pretty much - with the right training and development over a number of years.

Look, the way I simplify it and approach the development of players:

When players are generated into the game at 15/16, they have a CA value and a PA value. The CA is based on their current attributes, their ability. Their PA is what they could, possibly achieve over the course of their career in the game.

Say at 16, a player has CA 80, and a PA 150 - this a decent player at 16, with stacks of potential. With the right training and development, with the right coaches and environment he has a long shot at achieving a CA of 150 when he is older, around the mid-twenties, so in about ten years.

The difference between CA and PA, is 70, so let's call these attribute points. The guy has a CA of 80, with 70 Attribute Points potentially available to him - assuming he gets the best possible development and is a perfect professional in attitude and has good character, these points are going to be added to his attributes over the course of his development. The spread of those points, ie: which attributes get them, depends entirely on the training he gets and the quality of the coaching, as well as game-time and playing experience.

Every time an attribute increases, it takes Attribute Points from the pot available (PA) to his development.  If he ever does achieve full potential, and ends up on CA150, then those 70 attribute points have all been spent. So player development is all about how and where you spend those attribute points available. A player with low attributes, and smaller difference between CA and PA has less room to improve, a player with larger difference has more to spend and can improve relatively quickly if he has the right attitude (Personality) and good caches and facilities and a manger who can design his training schedule well.

Remember the attribute values, in the background, are calculated to two decimal places, so if your RB has 'Marking' at 10, the actual attribute could be anywhere between 9.50 and 10.49. So working on him as a RB could improve his Marking by .99 of a attribute point before you see his displayed attribute change up by one point.  You can 'spend' 0.5 attribute points on this attribute, improve his tackling by 1/20, but not 'see' the improvement in his profile - although it is there.

Now, you may not want to see the CA/PA numbers, and choose to work from the Star system, which can muddy the waters further, as these are based on your staff assessment of the player, which means their attributes come into play, but essentially, the same applies - the bigger the difference or the higher the PA the more points you get to spend on the player during development.

When reviewing a youth intake, I look at the difference between CA and PA rather than the simple PA-only judgement. I also look at the players in the u18 squad and which positions need bodies in them (I always aim for two players in each position used) and sign players that a: have a big difference in CA/PA, or b: can cover a position in the formation (regardless of their PA or attribute points in the bank.)

Hope that helps

[LukasZ_VCF]

13 hours ago, Snorks said:

Yeah pretty much - with the right training and development over a number of years.

Look, the way I simplify it and approach the development of players:

When players are generated into the game at 15/16, they have a CA value and a PA value. The CA is based on their current attributes, their ability. Their PA is what they could, possibly achieve over the course of their career in the game.

Say at 16, a player has CA 80, and a PA 150 - this a decent player at 16, with stacks of potential. With the right training and development, with the right coaches and environment he has a long shot at achieving a CA of 150 when he is older, around the mid-twenties, so in about ten years.

The difference between CA and PA, is 70, so let's call these attribute points. The guy has a CA of 80, with 70 Attribute Points potentially available to him - assuming he gets the best possible development and is a perfect professional in attitude and has good character, these points are going to be added to his attributes over the course of his development. The spread of those points, ie: which attributes get them, depends entirely on the training he gets and the quality of the coaching, as well as game-time and playing experience.

Every time an attribute increases, it takes Attribute Points from the pot available (PA) to his development.  If he ever does achieve full potential, and ends up on CA150, then those 70 attribute points have all been spent. So player development is all about how and where you spend those attribute points available. A player with low attributes, and smaller difference between CA and PA has less room to improve, a player with larger difference has more to spend and can improve relatively quickly if he has the right attitude (Personality) and good caches and facilities and a manger who can design his training schedule well.

Remember the attribute values, in the background, are calculated to two decimal places, so if your RB has 'Marking' at 10, the actual attribute could be anywhere between 9.50 and 10.49. So working on him as a RB could improve his Marking by .99 of a attribute point before you see his displayed attribute change up by one point.  You can 'spend' 0.5 attribute points on this attribute, improve his tackling by 1/20, but not 'see' the improvement in his profile - although it is there. 

Now, you may not want to see the CA/PA numbers, and choose to work from the Star system, which can muddy the waters further, as these are based on your staff assessment of the player, which means their attributes come into play, but essentially, the same applies - the bigger the difference or the higher the PA the more points you get to spend on the player during development.

When reviewing a youth intake, I look at the difference between CA and PA rather than the simple PA-only judgement. I also look at the players in the u18 squad and which positions need bodies in them (I always aim for two players in each position used) and sign players that a: have a big difference in CA/PA, or b: can cover a position in the formation (regardless of their PA or attribute points in the bank.)

Hope that helps

I was signing 3 stars potential and higher but really don't have many just like 1 or max 2 every year who can be good.

 

But If for example I want to play fast football can I make them 20/20 in pace and acceleration ? Or even if they have unused PA they have limits in attributes?

 

 

Btw. how to get the best coaches for youth team?

It seems like I can't get like at least 4 stars and they don't allow me to have more coaches... in first team I have like 4,5 -5 stars ... should I focus for example on pace and acceleration ? If I would find fitness coaches maybe they will get me 5 stars so I could focus on that :P since other will be weak anyway...

[itay.bing]

19 hours ago, RBKalle said:

You'd expect that a top club that invests millions per year on youth scouting, recruitment and training, with equally expensive staff and facilities would at least have a better decent/dross ratio than the local club that sends a guy looking for potential signings at the two super-amateur sides who train twice a week on a gravel pitch.

ignoring the fact that they do, every player in those youth teams is decent. their attributes are in the context of professional football. think about it like college basketball - most of the players there would be canon fodder in the NBA. they would absolutely destroy you and me in a match (if there is a problem with the decent/dross ratio, it is that you and I and our amateur FM equivalents' attributes are 3/4/5/7/4/10/4/3/3... and not 1/2/3/3/1/2/1/1... due to minimum CA and PA limitations).

and the few who may be good enough for the NBA spread across different colleges, because a. teams cannot scout 200 million male americans and pick the best and b. said best may want to play for different teams for any number of reasons, some are true to professionals such as making sure you get enough game time, and some are enhanced for amateurs without guaranteed income such as distance from home, living costs, career prospects etc.

[enigmatic]

On 21/01/2019 at 10:04, RBKalle said:

As said months ago, I think the Youth Intake system needs a overhaul. Or at least a better explaination, if the former is out of question.

I mean: logic dictates that we spend lots of money on top-level facilities, extensive scouting net, youth recruitement and on a HoYD with the highest attributes (and a six-figures wage). It turns out those factors are marginal at best during what has basically been outed as a LOTTERY, where all the aforementioned, expensive, improvements are merely "a couple of extra tickets".

I know it's unrealistic to expect Messi-esque newgens at every intake, and I concur that no 16yo should EVER be ready to walk into a Top Clubs starting XI (can happen in lower leagues or in smaller nations, but still relatively rare).
However, what the game is sorely missing ATM is what I call the "middle class" of youth intake.

Players with ok or good potential, possibly with decent starting attributes (or at least with a "workable distribution" that are worth 2-3 years of moderate investement (basic wage) to be nurtured into ok professional players one tier (or even two) below the club's level.

You keep saying that, but never provide any evidence to support your point. All the statistical evidence (and all the evidence from Youth Only save people that actually try with their youngsters) points to (i) the game producing more players that have the potential to just about scrape into their side or at least have a good career the level below than real life academies and (ii) most FMers not bothering to go through several seasons and two contract renewals of hanging on to and developing the "one and two star potential" players that IRL would get their 500k move to the division below aged 23, which is entirely the player's fault and not SI's

Sure, the game doesn't find a club for everyone you release aged 16, and deletes some of them rather than simulating their career playing amateur football until some scout at a third tier club picks them up again for another academy aged 18 but who cares about that? Making it possible to sign everyone released by a Premier League academy and not picked up by a pro club for your Conference South side at the other end of the country would be much more unrealistic and unbalancing.

 

On 21/01/2019 at 10:04, RBKalle said:

Also, some of the newgen templates are just AWFUL... Stuff that you wouldn't accept at any professional club that has invested millions on a state-of-the-art youth setup.

A 500k p/y HoYD should never have the nerve to present us a 16yo CB with 4 Concentration, 6 Strength and 8 Tackling. Or a "promising" AMC with 14 Passing but 7 First Touch. Or, one of my all-time favourites, a CM with 14 Pace and Acc but <10 in First Touch, Passing and Technique.

It's like... are you blind or what? Can't you see those "hot prospects" are flawed or not really suitable for their position?

I expect a top-level Youth Setup to "fix" those inconsistencies long before the youth intake is presented to me... They're supposed to be the BEST our academy has found/trained for a specific class, so I'd at least want them to be ADEQUATE for the position they play. I can live with a situation where we don't churn out First Teamers year in and year out, but let's at least have presentable players we can later sell for 500k to our feeder clubs one or two tiers below.

 

I have some more sympathy for the "the templates aren't very good" argument: I'm particularly not a fan of seeing teenage defenders whose standout ability is supposed Premier League standard decision making (not something often coupled with a complete inability to actually mark or pass the ball!), and don't like the way quick teenagers with limited potential usually become quicker rather than less badly rounded, but the reality is youth sides are full of players with awkward ability distributions compared with senior players who've made it.  Man Utd have one of the most successful and well-funded academies in the world, but their youth sides' central defence has nevertheless long been anchored by a centre half who has loads of pace and decent ball control but still has single digit scores in standard defensive stuff like marking and heading at the age of 20. And this is someone the researcher thinks has enough potential to still have a chance of actually making the Man Utd first team one day, not a one trick pony making up the numbers.

Getting a 16 year old with first touch of 7 up to standard really shouldn't be tricky if he actually is promising, and needless to say, there actually are CMs in Premier League youth teams picked out by Premier League youth programme managers whose researchers have given them 14+ for pace and <10 for first touch, passing and technique.

[RBKalle]

2 ore fa, enigmatic ha scritto:

You keep saying that, but never provide any evidence to support your point. All the statistical evidence (and all the evidence from Youth Only save people that actually try with their youngsters) points to (i) the game producing more players that have the potential to just about scrape into their side or at least have a good career the level below than real life academies and (ii) most FMers not bothering to go through several seasons and two contract renewals of hanging on to and developing the "one and two star potential" players that IRL would get their 500k move to the division below aged 23, which is entirely the player's fault and not SI's

Well, the Youth Only save's one and only goal is to stick with the bunch of talentless bozos our HoYD dumped on our training groud for a specific year, so of course the % of success, or at least of fulfilled potential (however low it can be) is higher than in regular games.

And my main gripe was about how AI handles those players anyway.

I know we human managers can more or less turn an Ali Dia into a presentable EPL striker with enough effort put into it... but what about the AI managers? The innate inability to develop anything that isn't basically "unscrewable" (ie. 130CA/180PA well-rounded prospects ready for first team action at 16-17) also means we can easily scoop up talented prospects but also rummage through the free agents list for some decent backups or resellable rejects.

 

2 ore fa, enigmatic ha scritto:

Sure, the game doesn't find a club for everyone you release aged 16, and deletes some of them rather than simulating their career playing amateur football until some scout at a third tier club picks them up again for another academy aged 18 but who cares about that? Making it possible to sign everyone released by a Premier League academy and not picked up by a pro club for your Conference South side at the other end of the country would be much more unrealistic and unbalancing.

Would it?

Maybe so for Conference players, but many League One/Two sides have their share of former academy prospects who didn't make it.

With 3 or 4 playable tiers in a nation, there are enough sides to give a second chance at a lower level to a solid portion of the academy rejects instead of having a new batch of horrid newgens pop up every year.

Take a look at the current squad for Ranheim Fotball in Norwegian Premier division. The vast majority (15, give or take a few) of their current players were at one point part of Rosenborg's Youth or 2nd team.
And, having played as Rosenborg in every FM iteration ever, I remember most of them not being remotely good enough to become Premier Division players (top-half material even, as Ranheim surprised everyone and finished 7th, having even been up in 3rd place halfway through the season).

Most of them instead ended up released by Rosenborg youth setup when they were younger and would have languished on free transfer and eventually retired, while IRL they found a more "forgiving" club that helped them to grow into Eliteserien players. Not NT material by any stretch of imagination (think 100-110 CA tops) but still good enough to stick around instead of disappearing and of being replaced by a bunch of hopeless newgens.

 

2 ore fa, enigmatic ha scritto:

I have some more sympathy for the "the templates aren't very good" argument

I know many real-life youth players are "uneven", which is why they're still playing for youth sides/reserves instead of walking into the Starting XI...

However FM takes it to the extreme and it'd need a bit of a rework. Not to have "half a dozen 170PA players in every intake", but merely to have players whose distribution resembles something realistic and workable.

The biggest issue IMO is that unless a player has a huge potential (ie. enough CA points) to rectify, at least partially, his flaws, he's gonna be either completely useless in the long run.

It's not uncommon to have, say, a very physically imposing player who's absolutely pants whenever a ball is involved. Or technically gifted kids with the build of a jockey... Usually they still do fine against low-level youth opposition by "exploiting" their only superior trait, but are ultimately too one-dimensional to make it.

[enigmatic]

1 minute ago, RBKalle said:

Well, the Youth Only save's one and only goal is to stick with the bunch of talentless bozos our HoYD dumped on our training groud for a specific year, so of course the % of success, or at least of fulfilled potential (however low it can be) is higher than in regular games.

And my main gripe was about how AI handles those players anyway.

I know we human managers can more or less turn an Ali Dia into a presentable EPL striker with enough effort put into it... but what about the AI managers? The innate inability to develop anything that isn't basically "unscrewable" (ie. 130CA/180PA well-rounded prospects ready for first team action at 16-17) also means we can easily scoop up talented prospects but also rummage through the free agents list for some decent backups or resellable rejects.

But despite "unscrewable" players being pretty rare there isn't a problem with the AI developing enough decent players for the future of the game

Otherwise people would be regularly complaining that after a decade or two the Premier League is full of CA 115 players and League One doesn't have many players of professional standard.

Instead, people are regularly complaining that hardly anyone makes it out of their own youth intake

Unless they actually try and play their own young players despite being able to sign much better ones, which is also the main way academies develop players successfully IRL. And if humans try that then they will do better than the AI and thus far more players will make it than IRL.

 

4 minutes ago, RBKalle said:

Would it?

Maybe so for Conference players, but many League One/Two sides have their share of former academy prospects who didn't make it.

With 3 or 4 playable tiers in a nation, there are enough sides to give a second chance at a lower level to a solid portion of the academy rejects instead of having a new batch of horrid newgens pop up every year.

Take a look at the current squad for Ranheim Fotball in Norwegian Premier division. The vast majority (15, give or take a few) of their current players were at one point part of Rosenborg's Youth or 2nd team.
And, having played as Rosenborg in every FM iteration ever, I remember most of them not being remotely good enough to become Premier Division players (top-half material even, as Ranheim surprised everyone and finished 7th, having even been up in 3rd place halfway through the season).

Most of them instead ended up released by Rosenborg youth setup when they were younger and would have languished on free transfer and eventually retired, while IRL they found a more "forgiving" club that helped them to grow into Eliteserien players. Not NT material by any stretch of imagination (think 100-110 CA tops) but still good enough to stick around instead of disappearing and of being replaced by a bunch of hopeless newgens.

But lower division FM saves are full of players that got released from bigger clubs. Again, it's a matter of basic logic: the database doesn't get smaller over time! If anything, I suspect the squads in lowest active divisions in FM tend to be more biased towards former top division players than RL as there's not many players generated at semi-pro level to work their way up. 

I haven't seen your saves, but I imagine you tended to let 2* potential players with an area of weakness in their game go early and completely ignored them afterwards (hardly surprising when there's so many more players you can find that you know will be better) rather than developing them for the future benefit of Ranheim like Rosenborg did IRL or paying attention to their club history when they get promoted like the press might have done IRL. Because Rosenborg really doesn't have any difficulty in generating newgens with CA100 potential in-game, and nearly all its current youth squad have potential which could end up in that range or higher. And the future Ranheims of FM saves end up with full senior squads that have to have come from somewhere.

 

33 minutes ago, RBKalle said:

I know many real-life youth players are "uneven", which is why they're still playing for youth sides/reserves instead of walking into the Starting XI...

However FM takes it to the extreme and it'd need a bit of a rework. Not to have "half a dozen 170PA players in every intake", but merely to have players whose distribution resembles something realistic and workable.

The biggest issue IMO is that unless a player has a huge potential (ie. enough CA points) to rectify, at least partially, his flaws, he's gonna be either completely useless in the long run.

It's not uncommon to have, say, a very physically imposing player who's absolutely pants whenever a ball is involved. Or technically gifted kids with the build of a jockey... Usually they still do fine against low-level youth opposition by "exploiting" their only superior trait, but are ultimately too one-dimensional to make it.

I've said I agree they're not perfect. But they usually develop into players with pretty reasonable attribute spreads for their position (bar the odd short-arse centre back and most players being a bit more physically powerful than their predecessors). You don't need huge potential to fix a first touch of 7 in a teenage midfielder with CA of 65. If anything, many positions end up better than the current generation in terms of efficiently distributed attributes.

Man Utd's real life youth squad has a fair few ridiculously unbalanced players among its good players. Doesn't take much imagination to suspect there are a fair few more who are all pace and nothing else or good ballwinners with ridiculous lack of technique among squad U18 players in the Championship, some of which won't develop into something better.

 

[LukasZ_VCF]

Who is better as HOYD?

 

Should I change from Peters to Samaden as a HOYD? will he improve a lot youth intake?

 

[KlaaZ]

1 minute ago, LukasZ_VCF said:

Who is better as HOYD?

 

Should I change from Peters to Samaden as a HOYD? will he improve a lot youth intake?

 

The second one, most important impact of HOYD is personality. 

[LukasZ_VCF]

49 minutes ago, KlaaZ said:

The second one, most important impact of HOYD is personality. 

Because I've read a lot and different people have different opinions

And can't personality be changed easily now?

 

Judging PA should give me players with higher potential?

[KlaaZ]

5 minutes ago, LukasZ_VCF said:

Because I've read a lot and different people have different opinions

And can't personality be changed easily now?

 

Judging PA should give me players with higher potential?

Been confirmed multiple times, youth recruitment and youth facilities impact PA, junior coaching impacts CA, and HOYD impacts personality and the occasional (but very rare) freak regen coming through the ranks. So yes, all his attributes matter but not as much as his personality (which will influence multiple youngsters every intake). Also keep in mind his tactical preferences as that will also influence the positions and type of players coming through.

[Bigpole]

youth recruitment are rather indicator of club's NATIONAL SCALE (not worldwide) youth range. I mean if you have high youth recruitment rating you have a bigger pool of players to choose FROM YOUR AREA (low rating small area like your town only, high rating big area like cities nearby or even whole county/land/voivodeship). And then when you have similar ratings, there are things like reputation, youth coaching and facilities that comes into play.

You can deduct that because of this big pool of players to choose from you have higher chance of good players but it's not exactly improving PA.

[Snorks]

2 hours ago, LukasZ_VCF said:

 

Judging PA should give me players with higher potential?

No, judging PA means that he can predict, more accurately, how good the player can be.

[YankeeRam]

I play as AC Oulu in the Finnish First Division. I was able to upgrade my scouting and youth faculties to very good. Do I expect in Finland to get a Messi no, do I get the occasional gem sure do. My new GK is a 4 star while the rest are maybe 2 2/12 stars. Does that mean I can't develop them, no. I have had some bad youth come through but I have also retrained a few to come and make an impact on my team. I get what you are saying but to think that you are going to messi stats all the time is unreasonable and that the HoYD is going to nail it ever season is  well foolish. 

[alanschu14]

On 20/01/2019 at 19:04, Gee_Simpson said:

Nice gains mate. Are these through using your own custom made training schedules or do you leave it to your assistant manager?

Largely leave it to my assistant, but I will tweak sessions here and there. The youth training I don't micromanage but their sessions aren't nearly as varied so I don't think it'd matter much.

Sometimes I might swap out one of the weekly presets with another if I want to focus on something but I don't do that too much.

 

On 21/01/2019 at 00:15, LukasZ_VCF said:

67mln Euro at 19 y.old ?:O how did u make him like that? I have 20/20 probably now everything and good coaches maybe even the best in Spain according to the charts and can't get them to be like that

  

So theoretically every player with really high PA and very young age like 16y.o. can be made like real good players? For example RB with higher potential than Trent Alexander-Arnold can get similiar stats like him ? 

Honestly for this player it was a bit of a luck of the draw. Kaiserslautern has pretty good youth facilities, and Germany a strong nation for creating players, but I was still Third Division team so I didn't have huge amounts of money and/or staff. He was an excellent player that at the age of 15 was probably already better than most of my first team but I wasn't allowed to play him because Germany as rules preventing players that are U17 on Jan 1st of that season from playing.  When I hit Bundesliga (Kaiserslautern are a pretty decent team actually so I was able to double promotion) he was now eligible to play for the First team and I ended up getting him additional minutes at the two wing positions as well and got him natural in those two.

As for PA, underneath the hood as long as the player has available PA and decent personality, I find it's typically pretty easy to see players make big gains. They'll gain a lot as long as they're under the age of 18 playing anywhere (youth team or first team). Once they're 18 it's still important to play them as much as you can in the first team (or loan them out if they aren't good enough to teams in decent enough leagues where they'll get lots of playing time). The Bundesliga is one of the top leagues in the world which helps out a ton. I've never played in Spain but they're league is typically even better.

In previous versions of the game, I have opted to play players that were clearly not quite as good as another player (but with more potential) as getting a player playing competitive matches in top leagues can do wonders for their growth. If the other 9 or 10 players are top quality, they can usually carry a lesser skilled youngster very, very well especially against poorer teams in your division.

Playing them a lot is also really good for their value as their skills tend to go up a lot and anyone playing regular football at a young age is going to be seen as a valuable player especially at a young age.

[LukasZ_VCF]

anyone managed to get 4-5 stars all trainings in U-19 ?

[RBKalle]

18 ore fa, enigmatic ha scritto:

But despite "unscrewable" players being pretty rare there isn't a problem with the AI developing enough decent players for the future of the game

Otherwise people would be regularly complaining that after a decade or two the Premier League is full of CA 115 players and League One doesn't have many players of professional standard.

But that's because SOME players start with a high enough CA (and adequate PA), so AI staff are able to identify them as good enough to sign and play.

When I way "unscrewable", I mean that it doesn't take any effort, besides signing them, to turn a 17yo prospect into a regular starter for an EPL side. However, FM struggles a bit more, IMO, when there is a player with good potential but with low starting CA or with a weird attributes distribution.

18 ore fa, enigmatic ha scritto:

Instead, people are regularly complaining that hardly anyone makes it out of their own youth intake

Unless they actually try and play their own young players despite being able to sign much better ones, which is also the main way academies develop players successfully IRL. And if humans try that then they will do better than the AI and thus far more players will make it than IRL.

That's a twofold issue:

1) Human managers want instant results
2) There are so many good players available for free it's easier and faster to sign those who are ready to step into the first team than to tutor and develop a promising kid.

 

Again, we human managers can achieve pretty much ANYTHING if we put enough time, effortor skills into it.

AI managers simply aren't able to do some of that because of the constraints of the game modules. Which is why, e.g., you can lure them to buy a flawed 20yo prospect with awful attributes only based on CA/PA, while they'll gladly allow a reliable and consistent 24yo leave at the end of his contract and nobody'll sign him (because his CA has peaked to a lower value)

18 ore fa, enigmatic ha scritto:

But lower division FM saves are full of players that got released from bigger clubs. Again, it's a matter of basic logic: the database doesn't get smaller over time! If anything, I suspect the squads in lowest active divisions in FM tend to be more biased towards former top division players than RL as there's not many players generated at semi-pro level to work their way up. 

In my old FM14 save I had to keep my best academy prospects around in my B-team (while we were winning back-to-back CL with mostly foreign stars) because NOBODY domestically wanted to even LOAN them, let alone sign them.

And even the rejects, still decent players for LL sides, ended up retired within months, with only few exceptions.

I may dug the save up and crunch some numbers.

 

 

18 ore fa, enigmatic ha scritto:

I haven't seen your saves, but I imagine you tended to let 2* potential players with an area of weakness in their game go early and completely ignored them afterwards (hardly surprising when there's so many more players you can find that you know will be better) rather than developing them for the future benefit of Ranheim like Rosenborg did IRL or paying attention to their club history when they get promoted like the press might have done IRL. Because Rosenborg really doesn't have any difficulty in generating newgens with CA100 potential in-game, and nearly all its current youth squad have potential which could end up in that range or higher. And the future Ranheims of FM saves end up with full senior squads that have to have come from somewhere.

I brought this up to underline how young players who were deemed "not top-division material" (or not even professional football material!) both IRL and in FM as a consequence, ended up having a respectable career as pros and even had a very good season in the Premier Division.

Of course I didn't bother to develop a young player rated 4 Silver Stars CA and 2 Stars PA because in FM it's perfectly possible to overachieve from season one and thus it's not worth investing time into players who'll be of no use to the first team come the time they'll be ready.

HOWEVER

FM Ranheim could and should have picked them up as soon as they got kicked out of Rosenborg Youth program or B-team, just like it happened in real life.

Instead all those now decent players likely retired shortly after because of the usual Reputation discrepancy.

Sure, future Ranheims must get their players from somewhere, but I bet that "somewhere" is partly youth intake (clearly inferior to top division sides) or random, often relatively expensive, signings from same division or from obscure clubs abroad.

 

18 ore fa, enigmatic ha scritto:

I've said I agree they're not perfect. But they usually develop into players with pretty reasonable attribute spreads for their position (bar the odd short-arse centre back and most players being a bit more physically powerful than their predecessors). You don't need huge potential to fix a first touch of 7 in a teenage midfielder with CA of 65. If anything, many positions end up better than the current generation in terms of efficiently distributed attributes.

Man Utd's real life youth squad has a fair few ridiculously unbalanced players among its good players. Doesn't take much imagination to suspect there are a fair few more who are all pace and nothing else or good ballwinners with ridiculous lack of technique among squad U18 players in the Championship, some of which won't develop into something better.

 

I don't have a problem with that though...

I'd just wish both human managers and AI could be able to partially "fix" those flaws, instead of getting a rather straightforward progression of player attributes, no matter how flawed.