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Most youth intakes I would get 1 or occasionally 2 truly great looking players, a handful of maybes and a "bunch a' crap". Rarely (very rarely) I'll get a player who you just know is destined for greatness. Like the midfielder I got a few days ago who I swear to God is the next Iniestsa, I'm not even joking. Like any good manager I've placed the weight of the club's future on his young shoulders :brock:

It's been the same for years and I've never had an issue with it really. Rarely great, frequently one or two good, a lot of average. But they could all potentially become good players.

Edited by ..Valhalla..

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14 hours ago, roger redknapp said:

And on top of that, I’m supposed to sit here and pretend that I can’t talk and communicate with a member of staff I spend £500k a year on feeding his family. And say, “I don’t give a flying unicorn what your preferred formation is,  this club plays XXXX’  

 

this is a respected professional you are talking to. if jose murinho will join Barcelona and tell the HOYD "stop this nonsense of bringing me short technical players, from now on i demand 15 CB that were supposed to be NBA centers per year, and i don't give a flying unicorn about how good they pass" he will ignore you at first, and if you insist he will resign. you pay this man 500k per year because you trust his abilities. if you don't, replace him, or do his job. an HOYD in a premier league club is not a manufacturing worker that operates a machine the way his boss tells him, he is a person that responsibilities of youth development were delegated to, just like a player is a person that the manager delegated some responsibilities of playing aspects to, and not a controlled FIFA styled footballing machine.  

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18 hours ago, roger redknapp said:

Quote where I asked why I don’t have premier league ready players. 

That’s absolutely rubbish. 

If you take down the “hes expecting Messi in every intake” defense, you would see I’m not taking the mick all over our beloved game. 

I’m being pretty fair about something that needs an overhaul.

your defensive position about it (being self claimed snob) is blinding you into making assumptions and painting me out to being unrealistic.

Ive only ever mentioned people like Jermaine Pennant. And you keep mentioning Wonderkids and Salah? 

Mate you said you should be getting 3 star current ability players through.

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5 hours ago, theonets said:

Crouchie on a free.

Who wouldn't want Crouchie on a free :lol::lol:

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40 minutes ago, Neotropolis said:

Who wouldn't want Crouchie on a free :lol::lol:

 

2 minutes ago, jaysdailydose said:

Pep. :D

Wenger :D

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Just now, theonets said:

 

Wenger :D

I'm gonna disagree with you there...Wenger is always up for a bargain. Plus, I'm sure he got to the point where he just trolled the Arsenal fans...

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1 minute ago, Neotropolis said:

I'm gonna disagree with you there...Wenger is always up for a bargain. Plus, I'm sure he got to the point where he just trolled the Arsenal fans...

Crouch and Giroud up front, Arteta, Ramsey and Flamini in midfield, Mertesacker watching Squillaci in defence with his own lack of pace....

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5 minutes ago, Neotropolis said:

I'm gonna disagree with you there...Wenger is always up for a bargain. Plus, I'm sure he got to the point where he just trolled the Arsenal fans...

Wenger IS a man that spent £10M on Francis Jeffers, so who knows... ;)

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42 minutes ago, Vernum said:

anyone knows a HOYD that actually spawns inside forward regen regularly?

Can't remember his name, but the dude at AC Milan does a good job, and a guy called Speakman as well. Look for a HoYD with a preferred formation that relies on wingers.

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All this talk of the HoYD not generating newgens with certain playing positions - they're 15 or 16 year old kids, just retrain them!!

If you're worried about how much CA it'll use, don't be.  Messi can play in several different positions and it doesn't seem to do him any harm. 

And at the other end of the scale, here's where one of my Plymouth Argyle players (who isn't exactly blessed with CA and PA) can play - he started life in League One (actually League Two but Argyle got promoted at the end of the 16/17 season) and is perfectly fine for me still in the Premier League as a back up player:

3.png

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yea we can retrain them but whats wrong with having some hoyd that spawn certain position do they all hate inside forward position for some reason?

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18 minutes ago, Vernum said:

yea we can retrain them but whats wrong with having some hoyd that spawn certain position do they all hate inside forward position for some reason?

My HoYD has his preferred formation as 442 with 2nd preferred formation as 4123DM.  Below is my most recent youth intake a few months down the road.  I haven't retrained any positions.  There are 2 newgens who are Natural at AML, 1 who is Accomplished at AMR and two others who have some capability in those positions.  That's 5 out of 16 newgens.

Perhaps I just lucked out and you've been unlucky - but when you are unlucky that's when the ease of retraining can be a god send :thup:.

4.png

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nm what i said it seems to be a known issue about not enough fb and if spawning, they are working on it.

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6 minutes ago, Vernum said:

nm what i said it seems to be a known issue about not enough fb and if spawning, they are working on it.

So you ignored his advice for getting someone with a formation playing two wingers, and a secondary one with IF's.......

 

Why ask then? 

 

P.S: I can see the flaws in the system, but if you ask someone how to do it, at least acknowledge the advice given.

Edited by theonets

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because i already had someone with two winger as a hoyd ? I was looking for someone using if not just wingers.

Edited by Vernum

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The HoYD doesn't 'use' players in the sense you seem to be alluding to - they simply recognise player attributes and traits and shortlist the best for you to choose from on intake day.

Their preferred formation is an indication of the positions they will be better at recognising potential and often as not, kids respond to an adult who has knowledge of their roles as players in certain positions. I will take a HoYD with a similar preferred formation but outstanding personality over one with the same formation and lower personality.

Granted it's not an ideal situation in FM, but the fact his preferred formation is 4123 doesn't preclude him from finding IFs, if however he gives you a 15/16 year old Right Footed Right Winger, nothing stops you developing the attributes in him to become an IF, even easier if the player has good mentals which are influenced by the HoYD.

Have had a recent conversation with someone who plays youth development challenfes, has done for years (since CM days) and reckons the mentals are the most important - a good HoYD with same or similar preferred formation as you, will always bring high potential players to the table, it's the mentals that matter so his personality is the biggie. Talented kids, with good personality, ambition and professionalism will make your job easier especially if retraining them, high adaptability will make retraining them much easier.

I don;t get too hung up on the formation thing, as long as most positions are covered, my preferred formation is 4123, my HoYD is 4231 DM, I get everything I need PLUS a couple of good AMCs every now and then - bonus! The lack of CMs is covered as DMs can usually be retrained, Wingers retrained to IFs, AMCs into CMs AP or Strikers usually - if not, that's what my transfer budget is for.

Once you realise the intake is far from the finished player and look at ways to develop them into the player you want, you will find higher success rates. The way  IDo htis is set the u18s to play to first team tactics, then, look at the 'team' as I would the firs team - right, we need this new AMC we've got to cover the 17 yr olds in the left wing and striker positon, he has good mentals so lets retrain him. See how he goes, when the 17yr old is moved to the u20s, hopefully another promising player will fit those positions, if not, the first kid should be getting proficient enough to be valuable. Putting a bit of extra effort in to the thing will reap rewards.

Once he hts 18, then I look at loans, so if I still intend to keep him will loan him in a position  I want him in, if not, will loan him to play his 'best' position as he is effectively in the shop window.

Edited by Snorks

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1 hour ago, theonets said:

P.S: I can see the flaws in the system, but if you ask someone how to do it, at least acknowledge the advice given.

He told me to get an hoyd using wingers and if you look at my post just below his I told him that I have already. How is that not acknowledging his advice?

And yeah I know we can retrain player but I was asking for more diversity of available young regen players, anyway this is not an issue anymore since it seems si is already working on a fix for this.

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23 hours ago, jaysdailydose said:


OK, you've already written a bunch of that, but I'll go for it.  I'll pull quotes out and respond/ask questions, bold will be you...


4* PA is a Star Premier League player, so if that's true, I'm just wondering how often you believe you should be getting a 4* player in?  How many years have you stablized in the Prem?  What other clubs are producing these £50M players, are they mostly higher reputation than you?  

What started you reloading?  This is something I've never done, I've always just played the hand I'm dealt, except in the instance of a crash, of course.  How often were you getting 3 and 3.5 star players?  
 

I'd be fine with the first two lines, but that's probably going to be highly intensive processor-wise, as you are going to want all AI teams to approach THEIR developments in the same way.  I'd also argue that most managers are not intimately involved with the process at youth level, and some managers leave it solely to their staff.  But, I wouldn't argue if a system like that were implemented, if it were well thought-out and done correctly to leave the AI on an equal playing field.  As it is right now, it looks like another place where a human player is just going to be able to outshine the AI, even if it is programmed very, very well.

Your intake really is those choices anyway, I'd argue.  Those are the kids that have been playing at your academy in your youth teams growing up, and who your HoYD and the other youth coaches have recruited in to the lower age groups.  You're still probably only going to be able to pick from a list that would wind up resembling what you get now, just you would likely sign less and have smaller "intakes."  I'm fine with there being more player input, though, of course.  You just want it to be done correctly and not unbalance everything, and you can't really argue that FM is unbalanced in this regard at this point -- most people are happy with the RESULTS of the youth system, even if they aren't necessarily totally sold on how they come to those results.  

I *do* totally agree that I should be allowed more interaction with the staff as a whole, and yes, I should be able to rip him a new arse if I think he's doing a poor job.  No disagreements.  

I rarely play with a DoF, and I rarely let the HoYD go out and find players, but when I do, they have brought me some gems... and they do bring a lot of garbage.  I'll have to do a save on FM18 with them being more involved with those aspects and see my results.

Not everything is going to be representative of real life, for game design reasons.  Honestly, most of the playerbase would turn the lower echelons of scouting reports to their staff, and would want an "intake" style final report anyway.  No one is going to debate with you that the game is representative of real life in those aspects... nor is it programmed to be.  Since most players are fully content to let their staff get that "final report" style, they do a watered-down simulation that is supposed to represent a montage of all of those activities.  

No one would argue with it if they decided to go deeper on it, especially if it was able to be delegated like most coaching and scouting functions are now.  

 

 

I actually think the personality system and its effects are well-done.  It isn't a given that he'll "change" someone's personality, and as someone who has coached 11-13 year olds on a regular basis, a coach that is a positive influence in a child's life will DEFINITELY have aspects of their personality rub off on those children.  

You SHOULD certainly be able to interact with a member of the staff, but someone who is a 4-4-2 disciple is still going to have a better job deciding who will be better players for that formation than yours.  It has an IMPACT, it isn't the be-all, end-all.  Obviously, your HoYD still does his job, but he doesn't necessarily always get you players in the positions you like.  Even the ones that have your preferred formation will still get you someone that mainly plays outside of your formation sometimes (AMC is a great example) but it makes an impact and keeps those "useless" players to a minimum.  

While most of us wouldn't complain about it being more realistic, I don't think most of us expect a crazy close representation of reality, either -- they obviously have to make the game playable, and not take an hour between each continue, or only the most die-hard addicts would play.  

HOWEVER: 

My prior points still stand, mostly because they were based around the star ratings.  Even in your ideal scouting system, you're still not going to see 3* current ability guys just rolling through your system, even with your enhanced involvement.  I'm really interested in your next few intakes now, because honestly, I find it really hard to believe that you could take those facilities, even with a lowered reputation to most top-flight clubs as a recently-promoted clubs, and reload 50+ times and not have gotten an acceptable intake, unless you are shooting just insanely high... which you definitely appeared to be in your first post, and in a lot of posts thereafter.  

I mean, you've apparently reloaded an intake with a 4* player in a Premier League intake at York City... that honestly made my jaw drop when I read it.  

I really hope you'll come back to the thread in the future and share your intakes... hell, run a rolling auto save and when you get to intake day, do some reloading... I'm sure that I'm not the only one that would be curious to see what kind of future intakes you're getting. :) 

I've got to go play now, I'll check your reply later, as this was a book, but I wanted to cover all of your points.

I really appreciated this response, thanks for taking the time.

Im passionate about this area of the game. 

I’m in January now getting closer to intake. I must say though please don’t get hung up about the stars,  I’m not moaning directly because of the stars, I’m more attribute driven, and I don’t mind having players with 2-3 stars in my first team.

especially as I’m a fan of retraining players positions and focusing on their attributes to a role in my system. 

Latest example being Tiago Matos who I have made into a goal scoring assisting CWB instead of a pacey CB lacking aerial dominance. 

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12 hours ago, theonets said:

I find some people's refusal to listen also baffling.

 

You may pay a staff member 500k an year, but you don't hire said staff member on 500k a year unless he actually plays your formation. He has some sort of a valid point, but a compromise would only that staff member bringing in players of your formation, but they're not developed at all well, since he's not an expert at it. Even if you're arguing this is how it should be in FM, it still doesn't mean your approach of having him is right. 

 

I said it early, and I'll say it again, if you don't want to play a 4-4-2, then you don't hire a 4-4-2 loving, direct football playing dinosaur to manage your kids.

 

My rebuttal to this would be that people are inspired and can change their outlook on football by learning from others. The same way we share ideas and tactics and suggestions. 

For example, Brian Kidds view on strategy has probably changed over the years shadowing Fergie, then Mancini, then Pep.

Id also be pretty confident Steve Bould evolved a lot from a hard nosed Center back to a coach and disciple of Wenger over the years. 

The player shouldn’t be a hostage to the games staff, the game should evolve around you. Especially if you are making huge strides in the footballing universe in game.

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9 hours ago, itay.bing said:

this is a respected professional you are talking to. if jose murinho will join Barcelona and tell the HOYD "stop this nonsense of bringing me short technical players, from now on i demand 15 CB that were supposed to be NBA centers per year, and i don't give a flying unicorn about how good they pass" he will ignore you at first, and if you insist he will resign. you pay this man 500k per year because you trust his abilities. if you don't, replace him, or do his job. an HOYD in a premier league club is not a manufacturing worker that operates a machine the way his boss tells him, he is a person that responsibilities of youth development were delegated to, just like a player is a person that the manager delegated some responsibilities of playing aspects to, and not a controlled FIFA styled footballing machine.  

I think you are firstly exaggerating, I want flexibility and negotiation and to communicate with my staff.

secondly you are underestimating the power a club manager has over his staff. The club comes first, the manager and club is not at the whims of staffs tastes and preferences.  A philosophy is in place and you adhere to them. 

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On 06/05/2018 at 06:11, roger redknapp said:

York City, Premier league, in Europe, Extensive Youth Recruitment, Exceptional Junior Coaching, Excellent Youth Facilities, Huw Jennings Resolute HOYD, Under 18 Manager, Assistant, 2 coaches, 2 Lower League Youth Intake Affiliates

Currently Spawning 1/2 to 1 1/2️ ability max 
And Spawning 1/2 to 4 ️ potential 

Reloading on intake day to test it. Should I not be yielding any ️ current ability?   Like surely the boxes I’ve ticked I should have a desirable intake after 15-20 reloads?

My GOD you are expecting your 16 yo kids to play straight into the EPL first team? straight from youth intake! It won't happen ever I guess irl and in the game too.

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Ok just to revise: 

I expect slightly higher PA in my intake, not CA. Especially after the amount of reloads I have gone through, the odds should eventually fall in my favour. 

I don’t expect 1st team quality, this is me revising from the original post. 

I expect a Lower CA now more than ever because my Current first team is getting very very high quality since I made the post.

- I’m not stars driven - I like to see promising players stats. 

- I don’t have any hidden PA CA stats view like you can see in editor I don’t have editor, my FLUT skin shows me players CA and PA as 0-20

I look for a decent attribute octagon and the stats predominantly. 

Every HOYD I’ve had, proudly says ‘I was involved in bringing these two’ each season and their picks are normally trash.

I am normally seeing an intake of 14-15 0.5 - 1* players and have to reload several times.  

I can’t work out if it’s my choice of HOYD because my facilities, reputation is maxed, I have really decent under 18 staff, manager, analysts, physios etc. 

It just feels like a waste when my under 18 team is either empty or just rubbish players and anyone I do sign sits in under 23s as I have nobody worth retaining outside the first team. 

I don’t have a full squad full of players in under 23/18 like in real life, because I won’t sign garbage, it’s a waste of £110 per person per week of the clubs money.

My problem is that the energy and cash put into this area of the game doesn’t often produce one player that can be even sold to pay for the academy to run itself. 

Leaves me resigned to feeling the HOYD isn’t doing a good job. 

I’ve got us to the premier league, and earned us state of the art facilities and chosen junior coaching and recruitment investment.  I can’t really do anymore to make a better environment for youth development to happen. It’s upto the HOYD from here.

 

Edited by roger redknapp

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I’ve also forced the board into spending and agreeing to have Youth focused Affiliates:

Banik Ostrava , defensor sporting, NEC, Nacional De Madeira, Sydney FC

I have seen HOYD mention some players coming through came from these which is promising. But nothing decent. 

I am trying. 

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You will always get those with 0-0.5/1.5 PA coming in on intake day - just don't sign them.

HoYD will improve the potential of the top 3-5 players - and don't forget, the better your first  team is, the better a 4* PA player will become. 4* should tell you that he has the potential to become a Key Player for you.

Don't expect more than 3 -5 of the 4* + PA players each intake - even I don't get that at AC Milan every year, nor to Barcelona, Ajax, Man City etc . If you manage one or two gems every couple of years you are doing very well.

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5 hours ago, roger redknapp said:

- I’m not stars driven - I like to see promising players stats. 

Every HOYD I’ve had, proudly says ‘I was involved in bringing these two’ each season and their picks are normally trash.

I am normally seeing an intake of 14-15 0.5 - 1* players and have to reload several times.  

I can’t work out if it’s my choice of HOYD because my facilities, reputation is maxed, I have really decent under 18 staff, manager, analysts, physios etc. 

It just feels like a waste when my under 18 team is either empty or just rubbish players and anyone I do sign sits in under 23s as I have nobody worth retaining outside the first team. 

I don’t have a full squad full of players in under 23/18 like in real life, because I won’t sign garbage, it’s a waste of £110 per person per week of the clubs money.

My problem is that the energy and cash put into this area of the game doesn’t often produce one player that can be even sold to pay for the academy to run itself. 

Leaves me resigned to feeling the HOYD isn’t doing a good job. 

Those 0.5-1* PA players? EVERY football youth team will have a whole bunch of them, even the leading Premier League academies. Heck, there's a good chance that a few of Manchester United's current Under-18s will be out of the professional game by the time they turn 21.

It doesn't seem like you are developing a proper youth set-up. You just want to be able to cherry-pick the very best Under-16 players at your disposal. It's like Radomir Antić or Frank Rijkaard or whoever telling Barcelona's HoYD in 2003, "We'll promote Fàbregas, Messi and Piqué from the Under-16s and give them youth contracts. And Paco Montañés as well. The rest can go get jobs at the local supermarket."

You've been told before that those 1* PA players might not necessarily be rubbish. They could have decent professional careers, or they could even surprise you and become much better than you expected. The problem is that you won't even give them a chance to make a success out of their football careers.

Let me take you back to my FM13 career again. When I was managing Romford in the regional leagues, I only retained 4-6 youth intake players per season, mainly to save on money and focus on taking the team up the leagues. (I stalled in the Conference South, but that's another story.)

When managing Dagenham & Redbridge in the Premier League, though, I retained most of my youth intake. Every player who was at least expected to be a decent League Two player got a chance, even if they had 0.5* PA. Only 4-6 players per intake DIDN'T make the cut. I would fill those vacancies with promising signings from other English clubs or from abroad.

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I would like to add something here that I feel are quite forgotten when looking at youth intake; The ratings are not facts. No, really, they are just the opinion of a coach or assistant/HOYD. And could quite possibly be very wrong! Sometimes seemingly bad players can turn out pretty good. I'll quote myself from a while back;

On 25/10/2017 at 08:23, XaW said:

I'd like to add something that it took me a very long time to understand about this game and youth players. In the past I would attribute too much on the assistants recommendation of the youngsters talents and only sign the ones who had the best potential. Lately I've signed more players than I used to and this sometimes really help out. I'm going to give an example for a player in my current squad.

In my first intake I had a couple of great players, and a lot of average ones, but I kept almost everyone. The one I want you to notice are Edmond Xhafa:

zMIEo9N.png

2 star potential, maybe 3 star. Not exactly a super talent I thought, though he had a good personality. Unfortunatly, I don't have a screenshot of his player profile, since I only did that for the most talented (or so I thought). That was back in 2018. Now, I'm in 2022 and let's see how 4 years of training and playing have improved him:

G0DoRws.png

He is one of the better players in my squad. He is capped three times for Albania and just scored a hattrick as a central midfielder.

I thought I'd showcase this since I far too often let youngsters go if my assistant didn't rate them. Don't let the stars fool you, sometimes the players can become far better than expected.

Now, that is not at the top level, but it still shows that even though a player is not rated by a coach, he can turn out great if he is nurtured correctly.

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7 hours ago, roger redknapp said:

It’s upto the HOYD from here.

No, it isn't.

The quality of your intake is primarily up to the quality of your Junior facilities & coaches and your club & country's standing in the game.  The HoYD essentially just has an influence on positions and personality.  The HoYD can have an impact on producing exceptional or "freak" quality newgens but that's an extremely rare occurrence and personally I've never had one.

7 hours ago, roger redknapp said:

my Current first team is getting very very high quality since I made the post.

Then a newgen with 3 star potential could be a player of similar quality to those very very high quality first teamers.  If you keep binning your 3 star potential newgens you are probably throwing away that level of potential.

7 hours ago, roger redknapp said:

I look for a decent attribute octagon and the stats predominantly. 

What exactly are you comparing that to?  These are 15 or 16 year old kids whose actual attributes will likely be very low across the board.  They're basically blank slates which you can then develop and mould to your heart's content.  But when you first get them they'll likely look about as good - if not worse - than non-league players.  So what would constitute a "decent attribute octagon" in your eyes?

Take a look at this newgen below from one of my test saves.  He's supposedly an attacking midfielder and apart from being able to take a free kick and a long shot he doesn't look anything special.  He'd struggle to get into a 4th tier team based on those attributes.  But his potential is roughly equivalent to the likes of Marco Reus, Thomas Muller, Coutinho, David Silva - that calibre of player.  If I were playing as Real Madrid, York City or anything in between I'd want to keep that kid and develop him.  And hope he stops growing :p.

30.png

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This is from my recent FM18 thread.

I had 20/20 youth rating by this point. The point of it all is that not all of those players ended up playing for me and one player lower down the list on 2* rating is currently a Netherlands-capped right back who was sold for £10m to Marseille. 

Intake days are almost useless in a sense. You get the general sense of what could be, but you'll only really know how they'll pan out by training them up til 18.

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On 25/07/2018 at 07:21, roger redknapp said:

Ok just to revise: 

I expect slightly higher PA in my intake, not CA. Especially after the amount of reloads I have gone through, the odds should eventually fall in my favour. 

I don’t expect 1st team quality, this is me revising from the original post. 

I expect a Lower CA now more than ever because my Current first team is getting very very high quality since I made the post.

- I’m not stars driven - I like to see promising players stats. 

- I don’t have any hidden PA CA stats view like you can see in editor I don’t have editor, my FLUT skin shows me players CA and PA as 0-20

I look for a decent attribute octagon and the stats predominantly. 

Every HOYD I’ve had, proudly says ‘I was involved in bringing these two’ each season and their picks are normally trash.

I am normally seeing an intake of 14-15 0.5 - 1* players and have to reload several times.  

I can’t work out if it’s my choice of HOYD because my facilities, reputation is maxed, I have really decent under 18 staff, manager, analysts, physios etc. 

It just feels like a waste when my under 18 team is either empty or just rubbish players and anyone I do sign sits in under 23s as I have nobody worth retaining outside the first team. 

I don’t have a full squad full of players in under 23/18 like in real life, because I won’t sign garbage, it’s a waste of £110 per person per week of the clubs money.

My problem is that the energy and cash put into this area of the game doesn’t often produce one player that can be even sold to pay for the academy to run itself. 

Leaves me resigned to feeling the HOYD isn’t doing a good job. 

I’ve got us to the premier league, and earned us state of the art facilities and chosen junior coaching and recruitment investment.  I can’t really do anymore to make a better environment for youth development to happen. It’s upto the HOYD from here.

 

Do some study before complaining these things man! You are not stats driven? Stars are everything in this game if you don't have any editor or geniescout in your hand, and if you really want the reality install geniescout and reload the save with youth intake passed and load the save in the GS and first align PA% then  the club column if you have players above 76% or more you will see them there and stars are opinions, if I instantly edit one of my youth intake players PA to 200 it will take at least 1.5 seasons for the stuffs to guess the right potential and mark them over 3* from 1*, so that shows what star ratings really are, think of this as in real life .

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Back on FM 2019 

1 Career only Blackburn > Napoli > Real Madrid 

Its brilliant to see that tactics have been overhauled and everything that was confusing on that screen last year has been overhauled.

Squad dynamics, player interactions, social media, news reporting etc is all getting to a sufficient albeit repetitive level. 

The training aspect of the game is cluttered and messy, but it’s overhaul is appreciated. 

The only thing left to overhaul in 2020 now is the Youth intake, as it is still broken as ever. 

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Posted (edited)

Attaching a perfect example of how broken the Youth intake is. 

How a HOYD of Samaden’s caliber, is proudly mentioning he has had an influence in bringing in that player, is utterly embarassing.  

Over 2 hours of reloading and respawning Madrid’s intake, with top facilities, and I haven’t seen one player worthy of signing to the under 19s.

The pedigree of youth intake is there.  Real have a huge draw when it comes to any players joining an academy in Spain.

This overnight spawning method of dealing with youth development needs to be overhauled as it is broken. 

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Edited by roger redknapp

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Posted (edited)

That'll be the same Raul that, since we're talking about players first attachment to clubs, came through the Atletico Madrid youth ranks before moving across purely due to Atletico shutting their academy.  Ooft.  Or Isco, who started at Valencia.  Or Varane, who was already a first team player when he joined.  Just like Hierro.

Interesting that in the dreadfully framed "screenshots" that you fail to show the player who was considered the best player in the intake, and fixate on one the HOYD mentions.  You also cut off the actual potential rating.  Anything 3 or above means they at least have the potential to be as good in their position as the squad currently is.

There is nothing broken about the feature.  It is working exactly as intended, just not how you yourself expect it to work.

Edited by forameuss

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That is all you have taken from this...where Raul came through from originally. 

Total deflection from the case in point.

 “Dreadfully framed” is there any need to be so defensive?  as though my quick phone snaps somehow devalue the point I’m making. My gaming PC is not conected to the net so I can’t send screenshots. 

 

Samaden is payed £9k a week. And he has suggested that that player above is one he has personally been involved in bringing to a club, the stature of Real Madrid. 

Technique 3...

“There is nothing broken about the feature.  It is working exactly as intended, just not how you yourself expect it to work.

 

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4 minutes ago, roger redknapp said:

That is all you have taken from this...where Raul came through from originally. 

Total deflection from the case in point.

 “Dreadfully framed” is there any need to be so defensive?  as though my quick phone snaps somehow devalue the point I’m making. My gaming PC is not conected to the net so I can’t send screenshots. 

 

Samaden is payed £9k a week. And he has suggested that that player above is one he has personally been involved in bringing to a club, the stature of Real Madrid. 

Technique 3...

“There is nothing broken about the feature.  It is working exactly as intended, just not how you yourself expect it to work.

I don't think I'm the one deflecting here.  The Raul point - along with the others - is a fairly pertinent one, as it doesn't make any sense in the way you're using it.  You say that Real Madrid have this rich history, but most of the players you mention wouldn't have fallen into the thing you're complaining about.  In this case, they would have been in another club's youth intake.  So how can you use them to criticise in this case?  

I'm not really sure there are any more points in there worth chasing.  What potential rating does the player you highlight, and the best one in the intake have?  

As with any time this comes up - and probably earlier in the thread too - the same thing ALWAYS applies.  Youth Intakes are essentially a lottery.  The tickets you buy are your facilities ratings and similar things.  Better means more tickets.  But even if you buy a million tickets, someone with one might still win the whole thing.  It sounds like you want it to devolve into a game where if you improve your facilities, you get good players.  I can see why some might want that, but it takes away any nuance and gives an absolutely enormous advantage to the bigger clubs and the human user.  It has never and will never work that way, and the fact that it doesn't, doesn't mean the feature is broken.  It's working as intended.

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Posted (edited)

That Jesus looks like he could actually develop into a decent defender. I'd keep him. 

Technique 3 for a 15 year old centre half isn't ridiculous. Do you remember Pavon and Minambres at Real Madrid a while back?

Have you had a look at youth intakes at other clubs and found someone that age that you'd rather have?

Edited by allezdae

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Should also add the rhetorical question of whether saving and reloading intakes actually makes any noticeable difference.  I wouldn't be surprised if a certain range is already decided as to how the database is going to play out.  To do a proper deep dive on youth intakes, you'd actually need to, you know, take a deep dive.  You can't draw any conclusions on one intake, no matter how many times you reload.  You'd have to carefully control facilities, compare to other intakes in the same league, perhaps other leagues too.  Then repeat that process across a number of years to see if a pattern develops.  There's likely only one party who've put that kind of level of testing and work into this, and funnily enough they're the ones who've released it in that state.  Hmmm...

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Posted (edited)

I agree it’s a lottery, and I agree with a few things you have said in the second paragraph.

regards homegrown players - I googled Madrid homegrown players and used the FM player search list to list them. If the information wasn’t accurate then let’s just move on.

Our views on the subject aren’t completely alien, I don’t want top clubs to have an enormous advantage, but unfortunately that’s how it is. - UTD developed Cattermole, Gibson, Richardson, Josh King etc 

i started this thread with York City - believe me when I say that I would get much more satisfaction from the game if I felt I had other ways other than spending to get success and quality players. I’m the type of player who likes to minimise his wage bill and profit from a transfer window.

A lot of people I know who play the game struggle to fill their under 19 and reserves team with anyone worth it. 

my case in point is that the amount of reloads I do, in relation to the conscious effort I put in to ensure my facilities and staff increase my odds, just doesn’t add up. 

I don’t feel as though there’s is a sufficient enough black and white textbook explanation from FM on the subject. There’s been mention of HOYD personality, his preferred formation - both of which are insufficient ways to determine the makeup of 15 teenagers. 

A players personality will be shaped by his parents, environment and school friends, not a mentor he sees at the weekend. 

And Pep Guardiola issues what player styles he wants coming into the academy, not the HOYD, his job is to find them, not dictate based on his own preferences. 

It really boils down to the fact that Under 15/12 teams aren’t invisible, they are non existent and it is a spawn/lottery. 

I moaned towards the end of 18 that tactical elements of the game were a mess, terminology was confusing and misleading. I also said that the training aspect of the game needed an overhaul,  and both of these elements were also seen by SI as issues needing to be addressed. 

Eventually we will see the Youth aspect overhauled, whether you think it’s unsatisfactory or not.  Real football does not have overnight intake in the manner that FM represents it. 

Edited by roger redknapp
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13 minutes ago, allezdae said:

That Jesus looks like he could actually develop into a decent defender. I'd keep him. 

Technique 3 for a 15 year old centre half isn't ridiculous. Do you remember Pavon and Minambres at Real Madrid a while back?

Have you had a look at youth intakes at other clubs and found someone that age that you'd rather have?

Please tell me you are tongue in cheek.

he is absolutely gash. 

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Oh please, not this again... :rolleyes:

As forameuss says, Real Madrid don't have the best track record for producing their own youth players. Yes, they have a few success stories (Nacho, Carvajal, Vázquez, to name but three in their current squad), but they don't have exceptional talents coming through year after year after year. Not even Barcelona's youth system is that consistent.

If you have one potential first-team player coming through the ranks every year, you're doing well (and you're pretty lucky). To use Arsenal as an example, four years ago, the most promising first-year scholar we had was Chris Willock (before he went to Benfica). Then it was Eddie Nketiah. Then it was Reiss Nelson, with Emile Smith Rowe just behind. Now our hottest Under-18s prospect is Bukayo Saka. Aside from those, there are maybe a handful of players from those 'intakes' who could become Premier League regulars, if they're lucky.

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Just now, roger redknapp said:

Please tell me you are tongue in cheek.

he is absolutely gash. 

The highlighted stats for his role, central defender, are either already pretty decent or things that can be worked on before he turns 18. Why don't you try training him up for 2-3 seasons (doing your job as head coach) and then post his progress?

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Posted (edited)
27 minutes ago, forameuss said:

Should also add the rhetorical question of whether saving and reloading intakes actually makes any noticeable difference.  I wouldn't be surprised if a certain range is already decided as to how the database is going to play out. 

I totally agree with this! But it’s illustrates how clunky the current youth system is.

I understand that it must be very difficult to try and get an algorithm to fluidly represent something real. 

I would like to see them take the HOYD personality, formation preferences, stats and reallly separate them, so that coaching stats impact his under 19 training.  And the knowledge stats have more of an impact on his actual induction of players.

if he was to suggest new youngsters on a monthly basis, based on scouting invisible under 15/12 leagues and these would be added to a roster that would eventually form the official youth intake  - that would be far more rewarding and realistic. 

We have to remember that in reality clubs arent slaves to the quality of their intakes, they are all spending good money to find the next Messi. 

And equally, players with parents that know they have the next Messi, don’t linger around, they have agents and direct contact with clubs. And clubs fight tooth and nail to get the player. Including moving the family, purchasing a home, guaranteeing university for the player, and in some cases their siblings. 

How exciting would it be to land one, and after £500k or investment in moving his family he flops! 

Theres an impersonal basic flavour to the youth element of the game, that is alien to the level of detail the rest of the game adopts.  I’m just trying to touch on a way in which this game could increase the longevity of saves, by making newgens potentially more personal stories to us, the player.

This is all I am saying. I’m not attacking our beloved game, just one element of it.

Edited by roger redknapp

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40 minutes ago, roger redknapp said:

I totally agree with this! But it’s illustrates how clunky the current youth system is.

It is?  It's far from clunky, in fact it's incredibly simplistic.

40 minutes ago, roger redknapp said:

I would like to see them take the HOYD personality, formation preferences, stats and reallly separate them, so that coaching stats impact his under 19 training.  And the knowledge stats have more of an impact on his actual induction of players.

if he was to suggest new youngsters on a monthly basis, based on scouting invisible under 15/12 leagues and these would be added to a roster that would eventually form the official youth intake  - that would be far more rewarding and realistic. 

Well, given that the quality of players isn't going to change (if that was the problem, which it isn't, then you could do it under the current system).  All you're doing is obfuscating the process.

42 minutes ago, roger redknapp said:

We have to remember that in reality clubs arent slaves to the quality of their intakes, they are all spending good money to find the next Messi. 

Yes, but that is never, and has never been, a divine right to actually have that player.  There is nothing to stop you trawling youth intakes to try and find that player, then bring that player to your club.  Like Raul.  Or Hierro.  Or Varane.

43 minutes ago, roger redknapp said:

Theres an impersonal basic flavour to the youth element of the game, that is alien to the level of detail the rest of the game adopts.  I’m just trying to touch on a way in which this game could increase the longevity of saves, by making newgens potentially more personal stories to us, the player.

Like I said, you're just adding unnecessary and superficial detail around the process that won't change the inputs or the outputs.  Your initial complaint was the quality of intake  and how broken it was.  The quality of players isn't going to change under this.  You could achieve the same by just having some imagination.

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5 hours ago, roger redknapp said:

We have to remember that in reality clubs arent slaves to the quality of their intakes, they are all spending good money to find the next Messi. 

And equally, players with parents that know they have the next Messi, don’t linger around, they have agents and direct contact with clubs. And clubs fight tooth and nail to get the player. Including moving the family, purchasing a home, guaranteeing university for the player, and in some cases their siblings. 

How exciting would it be to land one, and after £500k or investment in moving his family he flops! 

This is actually a common occurrence. How often do we hear players dubbed the 'next Messi' or 'next Ronaldo' and then become nothing. Goncalo Guedes at Benfica was one such example. He went to PSG because of this moniker then ended up on loan at Valencia because he wasn't good enough. And before the Neymar/Mbappe comments are mentioned, it shouldn't have made a difference if he was as good as was hyped up to be.

The 'Hazards' situation at Chelsea is one more example. Yes Eden is fantastic. But his brothers; Thorgan, Kylian (and a third) are/were given such monikers and all went through Chelsea at one stage or another and only the third is expected to come good these days. Thorgan got shipped off because he's not good enough. Kylian isn't far off either.

 

But as has been said, clubs don't produce wave after wave of first teamers from their academy. You're lucky if you get one a season. Most teams buy younger players from other academies and then develop them further into first team players.

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Posted (edited)

I would rather they break up the lottery spawn method and allow the HOYD to interact with us monthly.

so they can maintain the necessary influx of newgens to populate the game, but the sourcing of them is closer to FIFA career mode where talents are brought to your attention rather than rounded up in such a random manner. 

The games current annual interaction with the HOYD isn’t satisfying or realistic. 

A HOYD like Samaden in reality is not going to spend 1 entire year scouting young players, and then bring someone in from his choice of thousands of youth games, with technique 1 - it just doesn’t remotely represent reality. 

Edited by roger redknapp

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1 minute ago, roger redknapp said:

I would rather they break up the lottery spawn method and allow the HOYD to interact with us monthly.

so they can maintain the necessary influx of newgens to populate the game, but the sourcing of them is closer to FIFA career mode where talents are brought to your attention rather than rounded up in such a random manner. 

The games current annual interaction with the HOYD isn’t satisfying or realistic. 

But what's the difference?  Your original complaint was that they weren't good enough, none of which changes if they come to you monthly or yearly.

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