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stevecummins78

Help needed with my 4-1-2-3

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I'm still struggling to get the best out of my front 3 in my Roma save. The defence and midfield three look solid, I am just struggling to get enough possession in the opposition half and my wide players are regularly only getting ratings of 6.3 approx. How do I make us more dangerous?

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Ok, so my brief assessment would be:

  • You're Roma (one of the best sides in Italy) so most teams are going to pack the middle and defend against you.
  • You have some top, top players too so I'm assuming second/third season maybe after a good first (few) season(s)? Even more reason for your opponents to be scared of you.
  • Your settings mean you will be compressing play into the area your opponents are (mostly) packing with defenders. (Control, Work Ball Into Box, two Inside Forwards, support duty striker).
  • Every player has Personal Instructions unique to them - how are they impacting your play?

You need to consider how these things are all working together and where your players will be able to consistently find space and/or create good chances.  Your set-up isn't actually terrible and I can see your thinking, but without seeing those Personal Instructions, it's impossible to say for certain what's happening.  What I'm fairly certain of is that space is going to be hard to come by where you are currently looking for it.

Maybe post a few more details if you're unsure, but I think it's just a question of adjusting one or two things.

 

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You've got lots of attacking mentalities with the people you'd expect to have possession in the oppositions half (IF/CM/FBx2) while playing on a quite attacking mentality. That means they are going to look for risky passes/crosses/through balls/shots rather than keeping possession and working good chances which will impact on their effectiveness and therefore ratings and possession stats.

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I'd have a look at those players your using and consider if thats the best use of them. You have Correa as a IF-A, assuming its the player i'm thinking of he is much better receiving the ball to feet (passing, vision, flair etc) than trying to run behind the opposition (acceleration / pace etc).  You might need some players to "do a job" until you can bring in a player more suited to the job and you might be limited in what you can do tactically because of what is happening around that player.   But looking at that setup it looks like he's the one you want to create for... but he's not really a goal scorer.  I don't know the other players off the top of my head well enough to say how suited they are for the job given (i don't pay attention to game ratings).

Tactically I would question why your using two FB-A if you then use Work Ball Into Box?  Do you want them bombing forward and crossing or not?  If you just want them to provide some width later in moves when the IF's are narrower then less aggressive roles can do that, and with a lower mentality and no "cross more often" PI should recycle possession more often.

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You try to get more possession but with too many attack players . 

 

Imo control is not exactly control / more possession . 

You can find out counter & defensive both will have more possession than you thought . 

Edited by z464

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12 hours ago, felley said:

Ok, so my brief assessment would be:

  • You're Roma (one of the best sides in Italy) so most teams are going to pack the middle and defend against you.
  • You have some top, top players too so I'm assuming second/third season maybe after a good first (few) season(s)? Even more reason for your opponents to be scared of you.
  • Your settings mean you will be compressing play into the area your opponents are (mostly) packing with defenders. (Control, Work Ball Into Box, two Inside Forwards, support duty striker).
  • Every player has Personal Instructions unique to them - how are they impacting your play?

You need to consider how these things are all working together and where your players will be able to consistently find space and/or create good chances.  Your set-up isn't actually terrible and I can see your thinking, but without seeing those Personal Instructions, it's impossible to say for certain what's happening.  What I'm fairly certain of is that space is going to be hard to come by where you are currently looking for it.

Maybe post a few more details if you're unsure, but I think it's just a question of adjusting one or two things.

 

Thanks very much for taking the time to reply, very much appreciated. You are spot on, second season after a third place finish and a good couple of transfer windows. I have a very young squad, but I love the quality I've got and want to manage this team for the next 7-8 years.

I do have some personal instructions, but not a lot beyond the standard for each role.

 

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10 hours ago, summatsupeer said:

I'd have a look at those players your using and consider if thats the best use of them. You have Correa as a IF-A, assuming its the player i'm thinking of he is much better receiving the ball to feet (passing, vision, flair etc) than trying to run behind the opposition (acceleration / pace etc).  You might need some players to "do a job" until you can bring in a player more suited to the job and you might be limited in what you can do tactically because of what is happening around that player.   But looking at that setup it looks like he's the one you want to create for... but he's not really a goal scorer.  I don't know the other players off the top of my head well enough to say how suited they are for the job given (i don't pay attention to game ratings).

Tactically I would question why your using two FB-A if you then use Work Ball Into Box?  Do you want them bombing forward and crossing or not?  If you just want them to provide some width later in moves when the IF's are narrower then less aggressive roles can do that, and with a lower mentality and no "cross more often" PI should recycle possession more often.

It's Angel Correa, an "unpredictable attacking midfielder" with great stats but low determination. I wan't him to drift inside as a creative inside forward,

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15 minutes ago, stevecummins78 said:

It's Angel Correa, an "unpredictable attacking midfielder" with great stats but low determination. I wan't him to drift inside as a creative inside forward,

But thats not what you've told him to do, IF-A is making his focus be more on goal scoring.  Due to his higher risk taking, forward runs often, dribbling often and Cuts inside with ball he will push up to make runs in behind the opposition or if he does collect it to his feet will try run past them with the ball.  Compare his acceleration, pace and finishing then look at passing+vision and consider if he's better off focusing less on trying to run behind defences or past them and instead collects the ball to his feet a bit more and looks to play other players through or carry the ball from a deeper starting point to draw defenders to him to create space for someone else etc.

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Couple of observations from me. 

- You have two playmakers in the middle of your midfield. This is where your team will look to focus its passing. On top of that, you have the IFs coming narrow to support the play, meaning the only real outlet is your FBs.

- You have TIs which slow the play down. Retain Possession, Play Out Of Defence and Look For Overlap slow things right down.

It sounds silly, but get a piece of paper and draw how your play builds up according to those TIs. While doing this, think about what the opposition might do to defend against you.

What I think you're doing is this...

Ball goes out of defence to DLP. IFs come narrow to look for ball, RPM tries to find space, FBs start to move up the pitch.

DLP looks for options, with a bias towards finding the RPM. Let's assume he plays a short, successful pass.

RPM looks for options. IFs have come narrow. Retain Possession tells RPM to keep the ball, but his in-built PIs tell him to look for a through ball. Do any through ball opportunities exist? IFs have come short, and if teams are playing deep, the CF is unlikely to move into space. What does the RPM do? His go-to option is to pass it back to the DLP.

DLP looks for options, with a bias towards.... 

See the problem?

EDIT: If I can say this without sounding condescending... don't be disheartened. Louis Van Gaal spent two years at Man United playing this kind of football! :lol:

Edited by ajsr1982

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5 hours ago, ajsr1982 said:

Couple of observations from me. 

- You have two playmakers in the middle of your midfield. This is where your team will look to focus its passing. On top of that, you have the IFs coming narrow to support the play, meaning the only real outlet is your FBs.

- You have TIs which slow the play down. Retain Possession, Play Out Of Defence and Look For Overlap slow things right down.

It sounds silly, but get a piece of paper and draw how your play builds up according to those TIs. While doing this, think about what the opposition might do to defend against you.

What I think you're doing is this...

Ball goes out of defence to DLP. IFs come narrow to look for ball, RPM tries to find space, FBs start to move up the pitch.

DLP looks for options, with a bias towards finding the RPM. Let's assume he plays a short, successful pass.

RPM looks for options. IFs have come narrow. Retain Possession tells RPM to keep the ball, but his in-built PIs tell him to look for a through ball. Do any through ball opportunities exist? IFs have come short, and if teams are playing deep, the CF is unlikely to move into space. What does the RPM do? His go-to option is to pass it back to the DLP.

DLP looks for options, with a bias towards.... 

See the problem?

EDIT: If I can say this without sounding condescending... don't be disheartened. Louis Van Gaal spent two years at Man United playing this kind of football! :lol:

Ha! I did do that with a piece of paper actually! You make good points, how then to get the most out of this side?

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There are lots of threads about how to exploit space when facing defences that sit deep. I'm too lazy to find links for you, but they're floating around!

But just start from first principles. Sort the defence out first, then how you're going to link together the guys who are the supply, and the guys who are getting on the end of things to stick the ball in the net. There are a million ways to do this, and you know your players better than I do.

Try different setups, and re-do the exercise above. I was labouring the point by highlighting your percentage plays. If when you do it again you're struggling to decide what the most likely passing option will be, that means the opposition face the same problem. Your attack is unpredictable, and you're some way to cracking it.

If I was looking at Correa, for example... I don't know the player well, but if he's a slightly flaky AM, then maybe try him as an AP out wide. He'll drift inside, and that moves the opposition. But you have passing focus in a wide position and a central position. You're already less predictable. What's the next step? Well let's assume you Correa has drifted inside. Sometimes the FB will follow him, sometimes not, but you have to play the percentages and exploit mistakes by the opposition. So, you need someone attacking that space. What are your options? Well, you have have a bunch of FB options there. But who is feeding that attacking full back? Not your AP, because he has his back to him. Visualise the move in your mind. AP receives the ball. Lays it off to a CM. CM feeds FB/A. FB/A crosses. Okay, you need men in the box at that point - what roles/duties do you need to use to make that happen? That's one route to goal that uses 3-5 players. Now create another, then another.

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A quite stunning win at Napoli with this tactic. Pellegrini, now playing as a MC(A) got in to the box to score the first with an assist from my forward, then the second and this goals came from crosses from my fullbacks. Gave up lot of possession until I tightened up in the second half.5aea35d607a9e_ScreenShot2018-05-02at23_03_17.thumb.png.0cbd7b538a8f7ac1d2f254fe9004838a.png

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Edited by stevecummins78

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7 minutes ago, ajsr1982 said:

There are lots of threads about how to exploit space when facing defences that sit deep. I'm too lazy to find links for you, but they're floating around!

But just start from first principles. Sort the defence out first, then how you're going to link together the guys who are the supply, and the guys who are getting on the end of things to stick the ball in the net. There are a million ways to do this, and you know your players better than I do.

Try different setups, and re-do the exercise above. I was labouring the point by highlighting your percentage plays. If when you do it again you're struggling to decide what the most likely passing option will be, that means the opposition face the same problem. Your attack is unpredictable, and you're some way to cracking it.

If I was looking at Correa, for example... I don't know the player well, but if he's a slightly flaky AM, then maybe try him as an AP out wide. He'll drift inside, and that moves the opposition. But you have passing focus in a wide position and a central position. You're already less predictable. What's the next step? Well let's assume you Correa has drifted inside. Sometimes the FB will follow him, sometimes not, but you have to play the percentages and exploit mistakes by the opposition. So, you need someone attacking that space. What are your options? Well, you have have a bunch of FB options there. But who is feeding that attacking full back? Not your AP, because he has his back to him. Visualise the move in your mind. AP receives the ball. Lays it off to a CM. CM feeds FB/A. FB/A crosses. Okay, you need men in the box at that point - what roles/duties do you need to use to make that happen? That's one route to goal that uses 3-5 players. Now create another, then another.

You should be a football manager!

Good advice RE Correa, her certainly has the attributes to be a wide playmaker - he is actually a number 10...

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There are people knocking around on here who know a lot more than me, and I'm regurgitating a lot of what I've picked up from them.

Just think about the starting positions of your players. When you have roles that move them into a different part of the pitch in the attacking phase, that creates space, which you can then exploit. But have an eye on how the opposition are set up. Where is that space likely to be? If you move an AP into an already congested area, chances are he may not have room, which means he either can't receive the ball, or he loses it after receiving it.

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40 minutes ago, stevecummins78 said:

...how then to get the most out of this side?

TBH I think your recruitment hasn't been great and you've downgraded your central midfield and unbalanced it.  Sanches isn't the wonderkid he was in previous versions, sure he works hard but his mental and technical attributes are poor.  Pellegrini is kind of the opposite, good all round technical+mental attributes but with poor physicals and a bit low Passing attribute to be a playmaker for me.  Ruben Neves is a better creator than Pellegrini but again weak physicals.

To compound that weak defensively midfield 3, your RB is more of a winger and Kolarov has lost his legs (Alex Telles is good all rounder though).

What options do you have?  Do you still have Nainggolan or Sturaro to provide a bit of grit in the middle, maybe even Rossi if his legs haven't completely given up?  Maybe pair one of them with Pellegrini or Neves as a DLP in a double DM.  Then look at the attacking options you have with the remaining 4 players, maybe a 4231 DM Wide with Correa in the middle? Depends what outside options you have, El-Sha on left maybe and could push Florenzi up as a winger and use a better defensively DR?  Could pull the wide players back to MR+ML if that fits how you want them to defend better.  Just try and build combinations but also try and balance the players used.

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27 minutes ago, summatsupeer said:

TBH I think your recruitment hasn't been great and you've downgraded your central midfield and unbalanced it.  Sanches isn't the wonderkid he was in previous versions, sure he works hard but his mental and technical attributes are poor.  Pellegrini is kind of the opposite, good all round technical+mental attributes but with poor physicals and a bit low Passing attribute to be a playmaker for me.  Ruben Neves is a better creator than Pellegrini but again weak physicals.

To compound that weak defensively midfield 3, your RB is more of a winger and Kolarov has lost his legs (Alex Telles is good all rounder though).

What options do you have?  Do you still have Nainggolan or Sturaro to provide a bit of grit in the middle, maybe even Rossi if his legs haven't completely given up?  Maybe pair one of them with Pellegrini or Neves as a DLP in a double DM.  Then look at the attacking options you have with the remaining 4 players, maybe a 4231 DM Wide with Correa in the middle? Depends what outside options you have, El-Sha on left maybe and could push Florenzi up as a winger and use a better defensively DR?  Could pull the wide players back to MR+ML if that fits how you want them to defend better.  Just try and build combinations but also try and balance the players used.

I’m not sure I’d agree on recruitment, I think Neves is superb and I’ve also got Barello who can play In Sanchez’s position. Sanchez is only on loan.

I sold Naingolan as he opposed me and was inconsistent. Strootman wanted a move to England and El Sharrawy was poor for someone on high wages. All sold.

I have considered a switch to 4-2-3-1, my preferred formation anyway. I think I’d have to drop one of either Neves or Pellegrini though as one of them would need to be the DLP, with a BTB alongside and then a winger and a IF either side of Correa in AMC.

Edited by stevecummins78

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Beat Fiorentina 4-0 in next game, tried Angel Correa as a wide playmaker on the left but he got injured so inconclusive. Played some good stuff, much more incisive in the final third and a bit more direct now from back to front. Second goal below is how I want to play...

De Ligt has it at the back, plays a accurate ball forward to wide playmaker Correa. He then sends it on to Schick running on to goal to score. Gorgeous.

Matteo Politano came on for Correa, playing as an out and out left winger and he played well.

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Edited by stevecummins78

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That goal is a really nice example of things working after making a change. Your defenders have more options. In this instance, crucially, between a short pass and a long pass. Moving the ball forward more quickly in this instance means there is room in behind Fiorentina and they've not yet fully transitioned defensively. This is the key to breaking down opposition.

On top of that, I can see the Fiorentina RB has been pulled out of position and your LB is attacking that space - fantastic. I can't see the whole screen, but it doesn't look like Correa has an option to lay off to in your midfield (who could then feed the advancing LB), so might be an area for improvement. Look at your DLP/D in the first screenshot. What is he adding there? Even if he gets the ball, you moved it five yards, which is next to useless! Get him in between the Fiorentina attack and midfield lines and he has space to work in. A support duty might be enough.

Nice work though.

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13 hours ago, stevecummins78 said:

I’m not sure I’d agree on recruitment, I think Neves is superb 

Whilst his Vision+Passing is good (16 in my game) he has a lot of attributes that are around 11-13.  Lets be honest here, your Roma challenging for the league, there's many other DLP's with the same or better strengths but who are much better all round players.  That passing+vision will mean he can do some good things with the ball but some attributes he lacks in will make him a bit inconsistant or weak in other areas.  He was a superb player for Wolves, but for Roma he's good (at best).

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and I’ve also got Barello who can play In Sanchez’s position. Sanchez is only on loan.I sold Naingolan as he opposed me and was inconsistent. Strootman wanted a move to England and El Sharrawy was poor for someone on high wages. All sold.

Understandable why you sold them, I just think you've gone for players you like rather than players that fit together.

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I have considered a switch to 4-2-3-1, my preferred formation anyway. I think I’d have to drop one of either Neves or Pellegrini though as one of them would need to be the DLP, with a BTB alongside

I agree with playing only 1 of Neves and Pellegrini.  Not sure i'd have a BBM with them, i'd want a good defensive player so more a BWM than BBM.  If he is decent going forward as well that would be a bonus but depends on your budget and who's available.  I'd want that because Neves/Pellegrini aren't good defensively (tackling, positioning, physically etc) and can't cover ground very quickly so need someone to balance that pairing.  Who and how you want them to play should affect the player you get.  The further up the field Neves/Pellegrini can get, the longer it will take them to get back due to there physical attributes (though reading of the game could help) so will have to consider how your covering them.  You could get a Anchorman type player and let Neves/Pellegrini take a few more risks as a DLP-S or have them sit as a DLP-D and have say a DM-S type player to partner them.

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and then a winger and a IF either side of Correa in AMC.

Sounds like a plan.  Just remember to look at the balance of the players attributes so you get a good balance who are good at the style you want to play.

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Looks good enough against lower opposition. I'd be a bit wary of that Mez in games against better opposition though. It's a defensively irresponsible role that likes to get up the pitch, so you could easily lose the midfield battle against teams close to your level. The usual thinking with 4231 is that the two central midfielders have more conservative roles as you already have 4 players high up the pitch, there isn't really a need for another one running into the already crowded area and leaving you vulnerable to counters.

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2 minutes ago, Tom8983 said:

Looks good enough against lower opposition. I'd be a bit wary of that Mez in games against better opposition though. It's a defensively irresponsible role that likes to get up the pitch, so you could easily lose the midfield battle against teams close to your level. The usual thinking with 4231 is that the two central midfielders have more conservative roles as you already have 4 players high up the pitch, there isn't really a need for another one running into the already crowded area and leaving you vulnerable to counters.

Good point, would two DLPs cancel each other out? I could try a BTB in there I suppose.

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2 minutes ago, stevecummins78 said:

Good point, would two DLPs cancel each other out? I could try a BTB in there I suppose.

They wouldn't cancel each other out, but they'd enjoy passing it to each other over and over again lol, plus all the other players looking to give them the ball! B2B could work, but it's still a bit too attacking for my personal preferences with their 'roam from position' instruction. I'm not familiar with your players but I'd be looking to play a BWMs or even just a plain old CMs, which has the advantage of being extremely open to customisation to suit loads of players. Basically any role that's going to sit alongside your DLP and hassle the opposition midfield when they have possession, while the DLPd sits in and covers space.

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Just now, Tom8983 said:

They wouldn't cancel each other out, but they'd enjoy passing it to each other over and over again lol, plus all the other players looking to give them the ball! B2B could work, but it's still a bit too attacking for my personal preferences with their 'roam from position' instruction. I'm not familiar with your players but I'd be looking to play a BWMs or even just a plain old CMs, which has the advantage of being extremely open to customisation to suit loads of players. Basically any role that's going to sit alongside your DLP and hassle the opposition midfield when they have possession, while the DLPd sits in and covers space.

I don’t really have a classic BWM, that’s a bit of a problem for me. Tend to be suspicious of them as they get out of position and pick up bookings. I expect all my midfielders to mix it when they need to.

My midfielders are:

Ruben NEVES

Lorenzo PELLEGRINI*

Nicolo BARELLA

Daniele DE ROSSI

Renato SANCHEZ

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I don't have the game open right now, so can't check their stats. When I use a BWM and they pick up a booking, I'll usually change them to another role that lets me select 'ease off tackles'. That role will vary depending on the situation, but if you don't have a suitable player to do that then maybe just go for a CMs and modify it to suit whichever player you choose. My advice would just to be don't have them 'getting further forward' or 'roaming from position'. The 2 centre mids are your shield for the back four, it needs to be solid. 

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1 hour ago, Tom8983 said:

I don't have the game open right now, so can't check their stats. When I use a BWM and they pick up a booking, I'll usually change them to another role that lets me select 'ease off tackles'. That role will vary depending on the situation, but if you don't have a suitable player to do that then maybe just go for a CMs and modify it to suit whichever player you choose. My advice would just to be don't have them 'getting further forward' or 'roaming from position'. The 2 centre mids are your shield for the back four, it needs to be solid. 

I could play Barello as a carrillo in there I suppose

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Erm, you could try. I think @Cleon did a load of testing for that role though when it was being developed and found it doesn't do what it says it does when you have any wide players in the midfield/attacking mid positions, it just acts as a CM. Unless I misread something lol! I would say don't be put off playing somebody in a role just because the green circle thing that indicates role familiarity isn't particularly encouraging. If they've got the stats to pull off playing the role, they'll be perfectly ok in that role. I often play Ben Woodburn in the ML slot as an IWs despite him being in the red in the familiarity circle, he still does a damn good job!

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I’m thinking of signing Denis Zakaria to provide more physicality as a BWM or shuttled in there alongside Pellegrini. Neves could still play deeper in a 4123 DM. Barello now likely to be cover or loaned out.

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On 03/05/2018 at 09:33, stevecummins78 said:

Cup game coming up against a third division side, going to experiment with this shape....

I've been using a 4-2-3-1 Wide formation at Wolfsburg for most of the 3 seasons I've been there and tend to use my midfielders just in supporting roles which has worked out very well.

One is a DLP (usually S, but sometimes D) and the other is just CM-S that helps keep position and prevents me from being too open on the counter. I typically play on Control, and they'll still often find themselves at the edge of the box and occasionally scoring the long shot from there.

I might make them a forward runner ("Get Further Forward" still on S role, or maaaaybe Attacking duty) if I'm needing a goal, but sometimes I find just the push to "Attacking" mentality is enough to get him more forward when I need it.

I just won Bundesliga AND Champions League this past season with a formation very similar to yours so with the right players you should be okay.

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With only two in the central midfield, if you have one set as a playmaker, you need to give him a workhorse as a partner. Someone who will win the ball back.

 

As has been said, the BWM can roam too much in this formation so find a player that hassles and tackles and gives the ball to your playmaker. Otherwise, you can end up relying on the defence to win the ball back, which is a bit too close to my penalty area for comfort.

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39 minutes ago, stevecummins78 said:

This is my current shape...

 

and hows it look on the field?  playing well? any problems you've seen so far?

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38 minutes ago, summatsupeer said:

and hows it look on the field?  playing well? any problems you've seen so far?

Still not having enough of the ball or scoring enough goals

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16 hours ago, stevecummins78 said:

This is my current shape...

 

Your right side seems a bit too attacking, and i wonder the advantage that you get by having a FB(a) behind the W(a).  Both players have instructions to get by the line and cross.

I know you have a CF(a) inside the box, but who else will take advantage of your right side cross galore? The AP(a) and the IF(s) that will get into the box later?

I would probably change the FB(a) to a support duty, so that the W(a) will have a recycling possibility when he can't get the cross and i also think you need someone from the midfield that will get into the box to support the CF(a). Perhaps a BTB instead of the BWM.

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3 hours ago, Keyzer Soze said:

Your right side seems a bit too attacking, and i wonder the advantage that you get by having a FB(a) behind the W(a).  Both players have instructions to get by the line and cross.

I know you have a CF(a) inside the box, but who else will take advantage of your right side cross galore? The AP(a) and the IF(s) that will get into the box later?

I would probably change the FB(a) to a support duty, so that the W(a) will have a recycling possibility when he can't get the cross and i also think you need someone from the midfield that will get into the box to support the CF(a). Perhaps a BTB instead of the BWM.

Great suggestions, thanks!

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You are now laying very similar to my AC Milan save. Only major thing I would suggest is Karlsdrop to FB-S.

I would also look at utilising Pellegrini better. On Fluid, you are compressed vertically so your AP and DLP will be closer to each other, they both attract the ball and could end up passing between each other. How is he as a B2B or Mez?

I have found a Mezalla in that position very effective in Serie A against hte annoyingly frustrating 5-man blocks (I have Kessie or Locatelli for that role) and use them as a B2B against stronger opposition when i need more defensive responsibility from them.

 

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I'm at the end of my patience now. Just can't score goals, even in games we dominate. Last saw was a 0-1 defeat at home to Torino, against 10 men!!!

Played with this tactic. 

Not sure i can be bothered anymore with this.

Screen Shot 2018-06-03 at 23.31.17.png

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A few things you should think about:

  1. I'm not sure what your plan is with that tactic.  @Keyzer Soze rightly pointed out you had an attacking winger putting crosses into a lone forward.  So now you've made that forward a CF-S, who will roam around deep so be in goal scoring positions less?  And the player used in that roles isn't very good at dribbling or creating for others, he's more of a goal scorer.  Yes the MEZ-A will get up field earlier but as i've mentioned previously, Pellegrini is slow, he's not going to get a lot of success making bursting runs between the lines or past the forward.  For him to get into goal scoring positions he'd have to use his mental attributes arriving later with other players occupying the defence.
  2. Why use a CAR-S?  You have a IF-S so why do you need help defending that flank (which he won't really do because of the IF-S)?
  3. What is your goal of using the Winger on attack duty?  If he is high up the pitch (as instructed), gets to the byline to put a cross in, who can keep up or catch up to be with him in the box, regardless of how attacking there role/duty is they need the legs to do it.
  4. Whats your actual plan to create a chance and for whom?  Whats the plan B?  Are the players your expecting to create good at that and the finisher good at getting onto and converting those chances? 
  5. I think the main issue you have is your asking players to do things they aren't great at.  Just looking back at all the different versions and the "its working" then "its not working" it looks like your just trying random changes rather than fixing a specific issue you've spotted.  Trying to get something extra out of those players and getting further away from what the players are good at and what was working.

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As summatsupeer mentioned, I think main issiue is that you maybe need the think about your roles, duties, and relation between them.

e.g. You have a Winger (Attack) on the right wing which cross from byline. But who? 

CF-S will drop deep to help build-up play and he may not be on the right spot when your winger crosses.

IF-S again may not be the goal threat on the box, especially if u think that Correa is a playmaker type player rather than penalty area finisher.

MEZ-A again will join the attack but he likely arrive the box late.

So the question is; who do you expect to meet with your wingers crosses?

 

 

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14 hours ago, stevecummins78 said:

I'm at the end of my patience now. Just can't score goals, even in games we dominate. Last saw was a 0-1 defeat at home to Torino, against 10 men!!!

Played with this tactic. 

Not sure i can be bothered anymore with this.

Screen Shot 2018-06-03 at 23.31.17.png

I'd echo a lot of what others have posted in that there doesn't appear to be much of a plan of how you are going to score goals with this system.

I'm not surprised that you are struggling to score goals as the front 3 aren't balanced in a way which allows them to work together effectively. You have two creative number 10s (CF and IF) but no number 9. You also have a winger who is basically on an island by himself that will provide service (crosses from the byline) which nobody is going to be advanced enough to take advantage of. I'd also question the choice of mentality and TIs here as they just exacerbate the problems.

The Control mentality is going to make your AML / AMR wider when your team has the ball which is going to make it difficult for them to link up effectively all of which is made worse by allowing them to Roam especially your CF who is going to be all over the place given that he has the hard-coded PI of Roam From Position in addition to the TI.  

If I were you I'd strip all the complexity out of the system and start from there. Go to a Standard mentality, remove all the TIs and put on generic roles. Then work on the partnerships that you are going to need.

In a 4-1-2-3 Wide there are 3 partnerships you need to get right.

1) Wide players - You need width on both sides and for them to create space for each other. You also need to think about when you need the width, as this isn't a top-heavy formation I would opt for having it later rather than earlier which would be achieved by having it provided by a player coming from a deeper starting position.

2) Midfield trio - You need one holding defend duty player along with a support duty and attack duty. It is also important that they don't interfere with the other partnerships you have. For e.g. I'd be concerned that the Carrilero would get in the way of my inside forward or that the Mezzala would be trying to run into the same channels as my striker.

3) Strike partnership - You need a number 10 and a number 9 which in this formation means that 1 of your players in the AML / AMR needs to fulfill the role of being a number 10 or number 9 with your ST fulfilling the other role.

Once you have established that foundation then you can begin to play around with the more exotic roles and fine tune the tactic using TIs.

I hope it all works out for you. Good luck.

Edited by pheelf

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11 hours ago, stevecummins78 said:

Thanks for this advice, really helpful. Did what you suggested and stripped it right back. 

The result? Turgid. 

Your not exactly helping us help you here.

There's a lot of advice in this topic trying to get you to think and discuss your plans but there's no evidence of you doing so, all we get is another tactic/result post which doesn't really tell us what your thinking, just the end result.

At least you kept a clean sheet so go from there.

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21 hours ago, pheelf said:

The Control mentality is going to make your AML / AMR wider when your team has the ball which is going to make it difficult for them to link up effectively all of which is made worse by allowing them to Roam especially your CF who is going to be all over the place given that he has the hard-coded PI of Roam From Position in addition to the TI.  

I agree with this point.  From the last tactic you posted I don't see who you want roaming.  None of the defence and probably not the holding mid.  You have a winger told to hug the touchline and as others have said you ought to have a no.9 type role, someone to get on the end of chances.  The Mezzala I think automatically roams and that's probably all you need.

Good that you have stripped it back.  Maybe just give it a little time.

I have been following this thread recently as I'm also playing with Roma and now in the 2nd season.  I didn't do particular well in year one aside from winning the Cup.  The team is ageing with some big wages and I struggled financially until Chelsea came in on a couple of buyout clauses which helped with money but not tactically.

I have settled into a 4-3-1-2 formation now and it suits the players I'm left with.  Having a 2nd striker is helping a lot in an attacking sense.  Anyway this thread is all about your 4123 system.  I really hope you work it out.  Good luck.

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10 hours ago, stevecummins78 said:

Thanks for this advice, really helpful. Did what you suggested and stripped it right back. 

The result? Turgid. 

Screen Shot 2018-06-04 at 23.29.19.png

I agree that the result was disappointing and was a snore fest but already it's an improvement on what happened last time when you lost 1-0 against 10 men. Also, bear in mind that the opponents best player was their goalkeeper.

You need to be a bit more patient and allow your players to adapt to the new tactic before passing judgment. You'll find it very difficult to detect patterns in just one game as there are too many variables to account for whereas if you give it a few games you can begin to spot trends which should help you to figure out what is going wrong.

Would it be possible for you to provide a screenshot of the tactic you used in that game along with the profiles of the front 3 you used in that game?

The reason why I suggested to strip it back was so that you can see if you have the fundamentals right by observing your players without having to worry whether it is instruction X or Y which is causing the players to behave a certain way.

The team analysis is already giving you clues about why you are finding it difficult to score.

'Lost a lot of possession in central areas of the middle third of the pitch'

That indicates to me that once your team has worked the ball into the central midfield zone that the midfielders are finding it difficult to pick out the more advanced players and when attempting to do so are losing the ball. That is because the front 3 are too far away from the midfield meaning that the passes to them are longer which increases the chance of the pass being intercepted or being inaccurate. If you can't get the ball to the front 3 consistently then you are going to struggle to threaten the opposition goal so you need to find a way to bring together the front 3 and the midfield into a more cohesive unit.

'Struggled for possession in the opposition's half'

This indicates to me that the front 3 are finding it difficult to link up together effectively which I alluded to in my first post in this thread. If you can't keep possession in the opponents half in a system which relies on getting support from players in deeper positions then you are going to have difficulty scoring as you need those numbers upfield in order to create the overloads and width to disrupt the opposition's defence. 1 striker against 2 defenders is never going to work consistently and will lead to a lot of long shots.

Considering that you are playing as AS Roma which is one of the better teams in Serie A what you will find is that the vast majority of teams will play more defensively against you. Against some of the other bigger teams such as Napoli & Fiorentina, you won well because they gave you a lot of space as they are more attacking. Teams like Torino won't do that so the rushed approach isn't going to work as you need to give your deeper players time to catch up with play and help with building attacks.

By default, the 4-1-2-3 Wide isn't a very good formation to choose for the kind of football you say you want to play as it doesn't suit direct football very well and is more suited to a patient approach. I'm not saying it can't be made to play direct but there are so many other better alternatives for that (basically any formation with more than 1 striker).     

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11 hours ago, pheelf said:

I agree that the result was disappointing and was a snore fest but already it's an improvement on what happened last time when you lost 1-0 against 10 men. Also, bear in mind that the opponents best player was their goalkeeper.

You need to be a bit more patient and allow your players to adapt to the new tactic before passing judgment. You'll find it very difficult to detect patterns in just one game as there are too many variables to account for whereas if you give it a few games you can begin to spot trends which should help you to figure out what is going wrong.

Would it be possible for you to provide a screenshot of the tactic you used in that game along with the profiles of the front 3 you used in that game?

The reason why I suggested to strip it back was so that you can see if you have the fundamentals right by observing your players without having to worry whether it is instruction X or Y which is causing the players to behave a certain way.

The team analysis is already giving you clues about why you are finding it difficult to score.

'Lost a lot of possession in central areas of the middle third of the pitch'

That indicates to me that once your team has worked the ball into the central midfield zone that the midfielders are finding it difficult to pick out the more advanced players and when attempting to do so are losing the ball. That is because the front 3 are too far away from the midfield meaning that the passes to them are longer which increases the chance of the pass being intercepted or being inaccurate. If you can't get the ball to the front 3 consistently then you are going to struggle to threaten the opposition goal so you need to find a way to bring together the front 3 and the midfield into a more cohesive unit.

'Struggled for possession in the opposition's half'

This indicates to me that the front 3 are finding it difficult to link up together effectively which I alluded to in my first post in this thread. If you can't keep possession in the opponents half in a system which relies on getting support from players in deeper positions then you are going to have difficulty scoring as you need those numbers upfield in order to create the overloads and width to disrupt the opposition's defence. 1 striker against 2 defenders is never going to work consistently and will lead to a lot of long shots.

Considering that you are playing as AS Roma which is one of the better teams in Serie A what you will find is that the vast majority of teams will play more defensively against you. Against some of the other bigger teams such as Napoli & Fiorentina, you won well because they gave you a lot of space as they are more attacking. Teams like Torino won't do that so the rushed approach isn't going to work as you need to give your deeper players time to catch up with play and help with building attacks.

By default, the 4-1-2-3 Wide isn't a very good formation to choose for the kind of football you say you want to play as it doesn't suit direct football very well and is more suited to a patient approach. I'm not saying it can't be made to play direct but there are so many other better alternatives for that (basically any formation with more than 1 striker).     

This makes so much sense, thank you. Screenshots as requested below. I'm going to carry on with 4132 but am going to try and be a bit more patient to allow the players to catch up as you suggest. Do you think TI 'work in to box' and 'look for overlap' would work?

Screen Shot 2018-06-05 at 22.57.07.png

Screen Shot 2018-06-05 at 22.56.54.png

Screen Shot 2018-06-05 at 22.56.43.png

Screen Shot 2018-06-05 at 22.56.26.png

Screen Shot 2018-06-05 at 22.56.16.png

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Next game, against a very strong Chelsea in the Champions League. Went with the tactic below and played brilliantly, won 3-1. Still struggling for possession in opposition half, but I will put that down to quality of opposition. Dominated the ball without needing the retain passion instruction. Pleasing.

Screen Shot 2018-06-05 at 23.45.28.png

Screen Shot 2018-06-05 at 23.49.32.png

Screen Shot 2018-06-05 at 23.51.03.png

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1 hour ago, stevecummins78 said:

Then lost 0-1 at Napoli. Back to square one.

Why? Napoli are a strong side, playing away. Nothing to be ashamed of

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