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Mactier

Guidiola's Inverted Wing-backs.

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Hi all.   After doing some research I am rather taken by the Inverted Wing back style of Guidiola.   However I'm in FM17 and need input on the attacking wingers.

In the 4123 DM wide formation my wingers are excellent wide-attackers.  However the videos I've watched point towards a 4141 with attacking midfield wingers.   In the 4123 the wingers don't come back as much as I'd like and the 4141 they don't seem to attack the byline as often.  Admittedly I'm still a novice at FM but I'm determined to be a hands-on manager and not a tactic downloader.

The APs' and the rest seem to play as intended although the holes my IWBs' leave behind are a bit of concern.  But its the wingers I am asking about.   What are the best PIs to give both formations4141.thumb.png.96d2149145880d4a7cc5d775987f8b25.png aggressive attacking wide-wingers yet still double back to chip in in defense?   (The striker is now an AF not DLF in pic.)AaLFRESCO.thumb.png.f74d303721875c4b9c21067e92600c22.png

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12 minutes ago, Mactier said:

What are the best PIs to give both formations aggressive attacking wide-wingers yet still double back to chip in in defense?

Tactical settings are just one half of the equation.  So your duty selection will have an impact (an Attack duty being more forward thinking than a Support duty) as will things such as your Mentality selection.  Open up the PI screen and watch how the mentality bar changes as you change your team mentality for example.

The other half of the equation - and one that is far too often overlooked - is the player himself.  For example, give two different players - one with a high Workrate, the other with a low Workrate - the exact same role and duty and who do you think will work harder for the team?  Who'll be willing to track back more often?

Now put those two halves of the equation together.  There are lots of possible answers: Attacking mentality + attack duty player at AML + player with low work rate = someone likely to stay high up the pitch; or Attacking mentality + attack duty player at AML + player with high work rate = someone perhaps more willing to track back; Counter mentality + attack duty player at AML + player with high work rate = someone a little more willing again to track back; and so on almost ad infinitum.

It's a partnership.  The two halves of the equation go hand in glove but is so often ignored.

The player's roles and duties define their behaviour.  Everything else (tactical settings and the player's own attributes) modifies that behaviour.

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Good point.   I didn't test both formations 'clinically' with same crew.    There's a lot of  influences.  Depending on who I play dictates mentality etc.  So even the same lad isn't likely to play the same way.   Still, this is far more fun than downloading a set'n'forget tactic.

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i also play a replication of this system. formation wise its closer to the 4-1-2-2-1 you play. i play the same back 5 but i play the DM on support. i play 2 mezzalas. and then i use a complete forward. 

 

but its the players that make the system. i never have wingers that have ppis of cutting inside because then we have no width. i need the dm to have excellent passing because the passes to the mezzalas are risky as they are wide and create overloads on the wings.

 

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Guest

I'm also trying to emulate RL Guardiola, his possession style, however, I've had more success with the 3-1-4-2 formation MCFC had used at the beginning of the season than with the 41221. 

I use a WM(s) on the left flank and a DW(su) on the right flank.

The WM(su) role is great for ensuring position, however, since my player has "gets into opposition area" PPM, he'll attack the goal quite often, too.

The DW(su) is there to put in some early low crosses (like Sane) and to be more aggressive defensively since I play a single pivot system regarding the flanks.

Having all players on support (except one of the central midfielders - KDB) allows me to use control mentality and to play a possession based system. A relatively high risk mentality paired with 2 forwards, an onrushing midfielder and a winger attacking the goal ensures you're a genuine goal threat

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1 hour ago, charisma_charisma said:

I'm also trying to emulate RL Guardiola, his possession style, however, I've had more success with the 3-1-4-2 formation MCFC had used at the beginning of the season than with the 41221. 

I use a WM(s) on the left flank and a DW(su) on the right flank.

The WM(su) role is great for ensuring position, however, since my player has "gets into opposition area" PPM, he'll attack the goal quite often, too.

The DW(su) is there to put in some early low crosses (like Sane) and to be more aggressive defensively since I play a single pivot system regarding the flanks.

Having all players on support (except one of the central midfielders - KDB) allows me to use control mentality and to play a possession based system. A relatively high risk mentality paired with 2 forwards, an onrushing midfielder and a winger attacking the goal ensures you're a genuine goal threat

i really like the idea of this.  id love to see a screenshot? what roles do you use for the 3 central midfielders?

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1 hour ago, charisma_charisma said:

I'm also trying to emulate RL Guardiola, his possession style, however, I've had more success with the 3-1-4-2 formation MCFC had used at the beginning of the season than with the 41221. 

I use a WM(s) on the left flank and a DW(su) on the right flank.

The WM(su) role is great for ensuring position, however, since my player has "gets into opposition area" PPM, he'll attack the goal quite often, too.

The DW(su) is there to put in some early low crosses (like Sane) and to be more aggressive defensively since I play a single pivot system regarding the flanks.

Having all players on support (except one of the central midfielders - KDB) allows me to use control mentality and to play a possession based system. A relatively high risk mentality paired with 2 forwards, an onrushing midfielder and a winger attacking the goal ensures you're a genuine goal threat

Interesting. I have been using a 4-1-4-1-0 strikerless system with Liverpool with great success - trying to replicate the same system with IWB's. Didnt like any of the striker roles, since they did not come deep enough offering a forward central pass. I opted to go for a shadowstriker instead who acts like the fals 9 of the team. 

But into the second season still unbeaten though I have begun toying around with a similar system using three at the back with one pivot ahead of them. I like the movement of using three at the back and how they spread out during build up. 

I also really, really like the Wide Midfielder role. I use one on attack with Stay Wider PI - they hold the width extremely well - and with roam so they in the final third moves around and in from wide positions.

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This is the tactic:

5ae23f365fde3_LeedsUnited_OverviewOverview.thumb.png.4cb42ea9ab83dab273ef0fc6d6674bc4.png

Yes, the formation allows for a good build up, we manage to get the ball to strikers almost always. The reason is opposition mainly uses 442 so we have a spare man in one of the CBs, than there is the DM(su) who is completely unmarked, the RPM that drops deeper, roaming in space and attracting the ball and finally the F9 - a role that drops deeper than any other striker roles...

I might test your WM(a) configuration when chasing a goal. I avoid attacking duties since I want to play possession style football  while at the same time I'm using a high risk mentality. Also, it might be too risky to use that in my setup regularly since as I said, I play a single pivot system regarding the flanks. I assume having an IWB behind WM(a) helps defensively.

Edited by Guest

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More on the tactic.   

Perhaps a pair Raumdeuters rather than attack wingers?   

Cannot decide on DM style.    DLP-de, HB,  DMde or an Anchorman?   Who's tried what?

 

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42 minutes ago, Mactier said:

Perhaps a pair Raumdeuters rather than attack wingers? 

Can certainly work in the right set up.  The risk you run is a lack of variety in attack so watch carefully to make sure it doesn't cause you issues.

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35 minutes ago, herne79 said:

Can certainly work in the right set up.  The risk you run is a lack of variety in attack so watch carefully to make sure it doesn't cause you issues.

Just thinkin' out loud.....   (can't test anything atm.)

Should the IWB be behind the winger or the RMD?

3-3-2018 6-02-23 AM.png

Edited by Mactier

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1 hour ago, Mactier said:

Just thinkin' out loud.....   (can't test anything atm.)

Should the IWB be behind the winger or the RMD?

3-3-2018 6-02-23 AM.png

The winger will hold the width in attack, so you can "afford" having the full back behind him to tuck inside and help in central areas. 

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1 hour ago, Mactier said:

Just thinkin' out loud.....   (can't test anything atm.)

Should the IWB be behind the winger or the RMD?

3-3-2018 6-02-23 AM.png

On top of what Gegen said, an IWB on the right means you'll have two players cutting inside, it's not balanced and will make you lack width. Walker is an attacking right footed wingback that provides us width, so WB (A) or FB (A) would suit him as he looks to get beyond Sterling/Bernardo.

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10 minutes ago, FlairRA said:

On top of what Gegen said, an IWB on the right means you'll have two players cutting inside, it's not balanced and will make you lack width. Walker is an attacking right footed wingback that provides us width, so WB (A) or FB (A) would suit him as he looks to get beyond Sterling/Bernardo.

I agree about Walker, but to me he seems more like a hybrid. He also at certain points in a game tend to get into the number 8 position. I think it depends on how De Bruyne plays, if he sits in midfield or go wide and forward. Depends on the structure I think, but yeah the whole purpose of using two IWB's is that you then can push your two number 8s into number 10 positions. That works well if the two wingers stay wide and stretches the opposition. You also get a lot of 1v1 on the flanks because of the IWB's. 

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9 minutes ago, Gegenklaus said:

I agree about Walker, but to me he seems more like a hybrid. He also at certain points in a game tend to get into the number 8 position. I think it depends on how De Bruyne plays, if he sits in midfield or go wide and forward. Depends on the structure I think, but yeah the whole purpose of using two IWB's is that you then can push your two number 8s into number 10 positions. That works well if the two wingers stay wide and stretches the opposition. You also get a lot of 1v1 on the flanks because of the IWB's. 

Yes, De Bruyne's a really complete player, he can do almost everything on a world class level. I'd classify him as a Roaming Playmaker but you can give him almost any role in central midfield. With IWB's it's like Guardiola's Bayern: Lahm and Alaba coming inside with Coman and Douglas Costa on the wings. A quick switch of play and they are 1v1, beat the fullback with awesome dribbling and cross to Lewandowski or Muller. I feel like we were similar to this last year, however now it's different, especially with the left-footed Bernardo Silva playing. Silva cuts inside and Walker overlaps. I agree though, it is very versatile.

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5 minutes ago, FlairRA said:

Yes, De Bruyne's a really complete player, he can do almost everything on a world class level. I'd classify him as a Roaming Playmaker but you can give him almost any role in central midfield. With IWB's it's like Guardiola's Bayern: Lahm and Alaba coming inside with Coman and Douglas Costa on the wings. A quick switch of play and they are 1v1, beat the fullback with awesome dribbling and cross to Lewandowski or Muller. I feel like we were similar to this last year, however now it's different, especially with the left-footed Bernardo Silva playing. Silva cuts inside and Walker overlaps. I agree though, it is very versatile.

Exactly, thats the real triumph of this City team: They have so many structures within the same system. Players are now comfortable playing multiple positions and they have total trust in their manager. It seems they can switch the structure within minutes of each game. They are so disciplined, under a lot of rules in how to move untill they hit the final third then it is total freedom. 

Not even to mention their pressing which is the key that allows them to have a total of 5 attackers in each structure. 

Edited by Gegenklaus

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Bare with me guys, I'm only a slight notch or two up from a newbie.

So far from the above, i'm sticking with 2x IWBs behind two wide attacking wingers.

NEXT:

A foggy area for me is the DM.  I'm quiet partial to 'em and like 'em no matter what role they play.   I haven't played FM(17) long enough to know the finer points of each DM role.  Yes I can read instruction tags but they all look similar to me apart from the RPM.   Cool bloke the DM-RPM but he's all over the pitch like one of those fur-ball doggettes people let off the lease down at the park.  

I need more time to discern the differences.  So can I have a nudge please.  In the set-up below can you narrow down for me the best choices for the DM.  My team is mid-table-ish Southampton.  So perhaps a DM verses 'the big end of town' and another style when it's a fairer match-up. 

 

N.B.  My Southampton DMs' are both quality players not boring holding players.  

late 2.png

Edited by Mactier

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If you want to know the basic difference between DMs (or indeed most roles) start by looking at their default Player Instructions.  (Ignore the DLP, RPM or HB for now, they have additional hard coded behaviour).

So a BWM is going to do a lot of pressing.  An AM won't do nearly as much.  And a DM will be somewhere in between. 

The BWM is your stereotypical kick 'em in the shins if you can't kick the ball kind of guy.  Players with high Aggression and Tackling attributes can compliment this role well, but watch out for dirty players (the coach/scout report will say "has a competitive streak").  And because the BWM has a high degree of pressing set by default they can leave their position and thus space for the opposition to exploit.  Not always, but a risk you need to consider.

The AM is kind of the opposite to the BWM.  He can still tackle when he needs to but it's a less aggressive role.  He'll hold position in front of the centre backs aiming to break up play through the middle.  Less prone to leaving his position than the BWM but also less likely to help out in other areas of the pitch when needed.

And the DM is kind of the half way house between the two.

In terms of the rest of your formation pictured above, with a midfield 3 of 2 x CM + a DM you can usually afford to cover all 3 duties amongst the 3 roles, so you're missing an attack duty midfielder.  Someone who's going to look to make penetrating forward runs and provide support to what could be an otherwise very isolated striker.  I'm not saying you must do that, but something to watch out for when playing matches.

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