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Armistice

Spurs tactic - Using regista as main playmaker

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Hi, if anyone left who wants to help me, I'll just post these pictures here... So I've got two versions of a tactic that I'm trying to implement at Spurs, it's about a Regista. I want him to be the main creator of the side.

 

This is the first one I came up with.

 

o7PzzyH.png

 

- mid three are pretty conservative

- striker might lack support

- in the limited time I spent to test out the tactic I noticed BBM have a tendency to drift to the right side of the pitch and thus leaving a lot of space in the left and central midfield.

 

Ok thing is I want high press that's why I used Attacking, of course it also comes with Wider Play, Higher Tempo, Higher Defensive Line, Higher Closing Down (these two are useful for high press, I might tone down the Tempo if anything) and Mentality might help my pretty conservative mid three to be more risky.

 

Then there's version two, different formation but kind of similar idea behind it.

 

o0CmP3G.png

 

I came up with this idea of using a 4-2-3-1DM Wide because I thought an AM might support the striker better and not only him but the front three. In my opinion this looks more balanced, but I'm still to test it out. Please ignore Mentality because I made this just before I quit the game to go to work. Because it's a top heavyish formation, I might tone down Mentality.

 

So what do you lot think? Any glaring issues with these two?

Edited by Armistice

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I prefer the 4231 as it gives space in the middle for the REG to move and create for the RMD.

The 433 DM wide i think would look a bit separated with a CM-D and BBM who whilst is thought of as a player who gets forward he tends to start deeper.  With 2 of the front 3 pushing forward it provides limited links.

Finally I'd beware using attacking with so many advanced positions with attack duties.  You might need adjustments for teams who sit deep, more patience to give the reg time to work it around etc.

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sbYqNju.png

 

:applause:

 

For now I scrapped the idea of using the 4-3-3DM and I’m trying to make the 4-2-3-1DM work. I’ve picked Control Mentality but as you can see, it’s having some issues. So first league game home v Liverpool (two corners lol) lost 1-3, then lost at Newcastle 2–1 and won v Bournemouth 2-1 and Watford 3-1. Ironically my biggest win so far has been the worst game in terms of chances creation, the picture above is from the game v Watford. The other three I created some CCC but the finishing was poor. Ofc, half of these long shots are the predictable throw-ins from around the opponent’s box which lead to a pass to an unmarked player and he shoots wide. Also the default set-pieces when a player is also left unmarked and he’s passed the ball before he shoots into row Z. But some of these were proper long shots so that tells me something might need work. What, I don’t really know, I was a bit tired after a long day of work to actually try and find out what went wrong. Not like I would figure out anyway.

Edited by Armistice

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What about a HalfBack as one DM, giving the WBs more grunt and giving you almost a 3-man CD team and then the Regista can ply his trade further up field with a 'dribbles thru center' PPM.?

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1 hour ago, Mactier said:

What about a HalfBack as one DM, giving the WBs more grunt and giving you almost a 3-man CD team and then the Regista can ply his trade further up field with a 'dribbles thru center' PPM.?

I wouldn’t do that mate. I mean think about it, if my DM-S would become a CB in possession due to HB role, it would put a much bigger burden on my Regista to transition from defence to attack. Also, I’m looking to have deep passing options (depth) when I’m deep in my opponent’s half and a HB is not helping me with that tbf.

Edited by Armistice

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Perhaps the WBs will move north with a HB keeping house.  So you get two for one in midfield + setting one WB to IWB may give you more grunt in MF.  I find regular DMs are too conservative.  And the HB doesn't hang around the CDs when in possession.  He goes looking for a biff & pass up towards the midfield.   Dye his hair red and watch his movements during a match.

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It's still not working properly, I still struggle to beat these deep parked sides ffs

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I am no tactical genius - i fact I suck.

 

But it looks to me like you're crowding the middle. You have 5 players all looking for the same area of the pitch. The REG, AM, IF, DLF and RMD could potentially all end up in the AMC strata, which would make it easy for compact sides to defend.

 

Perhaps add a winger or TI play wider. That's what I would do, but someone else probably knows better

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6 hours ago, Mr_Demus said:

I am no tactical genius - i fact I suck.

 

But it looks to me like you're crowding the middle. You have 5 players all looking for the same area of the pitch. The REG, AM, IF, DLF and RMD could potentially all end up in the AMC strata, which would make it easy for compact sides to defend.

 

Perhaps add a winger or TI play wider. That's what I would do, but someone else probably knows better

This ^^^^^

Stick Moura as Winger if you still have him.. IF, RDM will both look to run inside, only the right wing back is an option for width. the left back will cross from deep, which, if your on control, and teams are parking, will be crossing into a congested area.

If you have Dele as RDM, his PPM gets him forward a lot, If it's Lamela\Son on the left, they sill both cut inside from the wings, Lamela Dwells on the ball a bit as well, so can slow play down a bit, from my experience.

Dele will also congest is he's in the AMC role - I countered this with a roam from position, which worked.

Finally, i dropped down to Standard and Flexible - More space, and more varied passing. BUT it took half a season to kick in, so don't expect an instant win doing that as much.

 

Edited by plcarlos
Enterend wrong detail - "Dropped mentality to STANDARD, not control"

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Without seeing the situations for those long shots (remember direct freekicks will be included) its a bit of guess work as to why they happened.  As others have mentioned changing to a winger could help give a different option but you have a WB-A so the two could end up doing a similar job and ending up cross heavy.

 

I would have a read of 

If you want the Regista to dictate the play you might need to limit the riskiness of the other players and let the REG use his creative freedom to pick when to try something different.  Maybe also want the DM partnering him to be safer such as a DM-D, A-D or BWM-D to just stay deep when in possession and keep it simple.  With him staying deeper you maybe could make the IF-S a AP-S so he comes deeper and leaves space for the WB-A and central pair.  This would give a 2nd source of creativity and a player looking to help build play and trying to collect the ball to his feet (i'm thinking Eriksen).  Would then have to monitor how the central supporting 3 combine.

 

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Your issues with shots all stems from being overly aggressive for no reason at all. It's the same with 90% of people all seeking help on these forums. It's like they're all scared to go lower than an attacking/control mentality. People don't seem to care/take note just how mentality alone changes things. I covered this not that long ago in an article. Here is it, as it'll help you more than any article you're likely to read because you fall down the same trap. You always have to use an aggressive mentality when something more neutral can be more attacking and more stable. You need to learn what the mentality you use actually does and how it differs.

I wrote this about standard vs attacking but it's applicable to all mentalities especially the control one.

In this article I carry on the 4-2-3-1 deep discussion. This time with a focus on the standard mentality and the attacking mentality settings. Hopefully it will highlight some of the differences between the two settings and explain a little bit about how they differ and the pros and cons of both methods. For the basis of this thread, I played the same team with two different mentality structures. I used attacking mentality and the standard mentality to highlight the differences. These are the only two I did as I didn’t have time to do more. However you’ll get the idea and the point I am making hopefully. So let’s just dive straight into it.

Now these average position images might confuse people at first and you’ll think I’ve got them the wrong way around.

attacking.png?resize=474%2C274&ssl=1

That is the attacking average position map which looks deeper than you might imagine. There is a reason for this and we will come around to that a bit later in the analysis.

standard.png?resize=474%2C275&ssl=1

Believe it or not this is actually the average positions for the players in the standard mentality structure that I am using. Yet it’s more attacking on face value and players are positioned a lot differently compared to the first screenshot I posted. A lot of the players are more attacking. The average positions are interesting in both screenshots.

You’d have expected the attacking mentality to be a lot more aggressive with the average positions for when they had the ball (the purple icon with the number in it). Yet it’s actually the standard mentality screenshot which looks more aggressive. In the first image you can see even the defence is deeper when out of possession too.

There are a number of reasons why it could be like this.

The attacking mentality is making defenders hit the ball earlier than normal as they look to hit the front players a lot quickly than you’d see in the standard mentality. This is entirely plausible. In the standard mentality system players likely have more time and spend longer on the ball, meaning they move up-field much more because they aren’t looking to rush play.

In the standard system players seem to be more spread out, especially in the central areas. One of the reasons behind this is likely the initial space a player has. In the standard one the space is likely in front of the players, meaning they have time to work the ball and play with it at their feet. In the more attacking system, that space likely doesn’t exist due to the aggressive nature. The higher mentality should on paper push them further forward but as you can see in the images, this isn’t happening. This suggest the space isn’t there and the players are having to drop deeper to find space or by them being closer to the opposition players, it’s involuntary pushing them deeper and negating the actual attacking mentality.

Those are some of the reasons why this might happen and are the likely causes. But now let’s add some more context and briefly show the match stats to see if there is much difference between the two.

Attacking Mentality Stats

attacking-score.png?resize=474%2C207&ssl

attacking-match-stats.png?resize=474%2C2

attacking-individual-stats.png?resize=47

You can see I won the game 1-4 and despite the scoreline I was incredibly lucky in terms of the score. An own goal and two goals on and after 90 minutes really flattered us. We played well on face value with the score but that doesn’t tell the true story.

The individual stats show us a little bit more of how the players play. Interestingly I notice the keepers pass completion and have just realised that I’ve not actually set it up so he distributes to the defenders. I’ll have to look into this more and see if his long distribution is worth the sacrifice for passes completed if it puts us on the front foot quickly.

Guilherme also has a lot pass rate but if you’ve seen the training and development article’s I’ve been doing you’ll know he has weak stats. If not take a look here;

https://teaandbusquets.com/the-footballs-kindgom

The players condition is also low 70’s for most people. I’ll need to compare this with the standard mentality one and see if there is a drastic difference.

Standard Mentality Stats

standard-score.png?resize=474%2C204&ssl=

standard-match-stats.png?resize=474%2C25

standard-individual-stats.png?resize=474

We created a few more chances but overall there isn’t much difference between both sets of match stats and the score. We won the game 1-3. The times of the scoring were better though and it looks like we didn’t leave it to the last-minute or rely on an own goal. Could this be a sign of the way we attack? Possibly.

I think the biggest noticeable difference is condition, players seem to end the game with a lot higher percentage left compared to the attacking mentality one further up. This is expected because they are less gung-ho in their approach and should conserve energy better. But due to the average positions above, it wouldn’t have surprised me to see it a little lower than in actually was.

The goalkeepers distribution is still the same as I played the match the exact same way with the exception of one is done with an attacking mentality and one without.

Attacking Mentality Match Analysis

attacking-one.png?resize=474%2C247&ssl=1

Here we can see just how much space there is between the fullback and the inside forward on my left hand side. It’s quite the distance and one simple ball from the oppositions fullback to the wide player takes out my inside forward from this phase of play. It puts me on the back foot immediately because now my midfield have to shift across and deal with it or my fullback is left with a 1v1 situation. Or alternatively my inside forward could try to sprint back to make up the ground he has lost.

If you want that to happen then it seems pointless having him so high to begin with. You could play him deeper by the use of a different mentality and help him conserve more energy as well as reducing the space. We can also use team shape settings to manipulate this but that brings up a host of other issues and isn’t really an option for this demonstration. The reasons being is I need and want this space that appears just not as much of it. Space and time is what will win me game by creating intelligent movement.

attacking-two.png?resize=474%2C346&ssl=1

Here we have my left wingback Zeca on the ball. Instead of driving forward with the ball, which he can do because he has the space available and the time ahead of him, he is already looking to launch it to the strikers. However you can see the striker and inside forward aren’t positioned the best, nor are they really making a run forward, especially the one in front of him, that’s the inside forward he is launching the ball to. This is an issue as this inside forward is going towards the sideline rather than away from it. So then the ball is played what can he realistically do as he was going away from goal? Not only that but the opposition have plenty of cover to now allow the fullback to be caught in a 1v1 situation.

This is a rushed decision and my side wasting good opportunities where the player can venture forward more. Instead they’d rather look for the longer option regardless of how those players might be marked or what positions they are in. This is because mentality is also a risk factor, the higher the mentality the more likely a player will take risks, or as most people would say, do dumb ****. I’m not saying on the lower mentality there isn’t a chance that this doesn’t happen as it very well could. However if you’ve set the roles up correctly and have the right balance in the set up then it’s less frequent that you’ll see this happening. Were as currently, this is very common to see.

At times when this kind of pass works it’s great and we look deadly but it doesn’t happen enough and for most parts, wastes the move or just cheaply gives possession away. Another things is that when this happens, it also means the striker or inside forward aren’t making those dangerous runs because they’re not getting the chance to do them. Instead they get backed into corners or are surrounded by too many of the opposition’s players. So trying to move the ball forward quickly isn’t always the best for this reason. It also makes it harder for the supporting players to catch up with play and is often why you might see people say things like their striker is very isolated and not getting a good supply. It might not be for this exact reason but it’s likely it’s something along these lines.

attacking-three.png?resize=474%2C187&ssl

In this situation we have a move were the wingback as pushed on and is offering width. Then the inside forward is making a run forward too as is the striker. However my Segundo Volante who is on the ball (Yuri) is driving forward with it but he has no real support as players are positioned to high on the this occasion or surrounded by players who can easily cut out the pass or make the tackle. This is the downside of an attacking mentality when players get positioned too high, it means they have limited space to work with due to the high starting points.

It also makes it incredibly difficult for the player on the ball to pick out a pass and often sees him just crack a shot from distance. Which happens on this particular occasion. I also see posts relating to this and people pointing out the good positions they think my inside forward, wingback and even striker have taken up. I guess they have if you look at it but when you add context to it and the players position who is on the ball, it’s clear to see he is isolated with what he can do. The attacking side of things are cut off from him. Not all the time though and it comes back to the frequency aspect of how often something happens. You’ll find that in attacking set ups this is much more common.

attacking-four.png?resize=474%2C295&ssl=

In this screenshot we can see why my defence is deep and that is because the opposition striker is very deep in my half, admittedly we’ve just won possession but we won that at the halfway line. So we see that the defence is deeper than everyone else and likely too deep. This is because of the space the striker has, he’s making them stay deeper than they should. Also, using the Segundo Volante role doesn’t help here as we have possession of the ball so is already looking to attack. And it’s a role I want to use, however it looks like it’s too aggressive for this set up and how attacking it is. He is making more risky decisions and being overly aggressive. The role is very aggressive to begin with and then the added mentality isn’t helping the situation. He’d be better by playing deeper and slightly more cautious than usual.

That would then provide two things. One would be cover for the defence and picking up the opposition players who are playing between my centrebacks and the defensive midfielders. Secondly, it should allow the defenders to push up more because the defensive midfielders would become responsible for picking up the striker instead. At the minute due to the aggressive nature, the defensive midfielders push up and leave the defenders playing as a separate unit to the rest of the side. Again there are ways to combat this slightly by the use of different roles, maybe an even higher defensive line but I’m supposedly already playing with those anyway. And changing roles defeats the purpose of what I’m creating and how I want to play.

Another thing happening in this screenshot is that Nilmar, who is my inside forward is the one who won possession back and as soon as he gets the ball he is already looking to hit the striker with those more direct/long balls. The issue with this is when that happens my striker becomes isolated or the ball is cut out by the opposition defenders. Support is lacking because Nilmar is supposed to be the support player. Again if he looks around though, he has space and time to play in buy decides against it. You can see when we get the ball my players are looking to get the ball forward as fast as possible. This is what mentality does on the higher ones, players take more risks and look to get the ball to the front players in the quickest, fastest possible way.

attacking-five.png?resize=474%2C320&ssl=

Yet again another situation where the side is looking to get the ball to the front far too quickly again. This time we see Yuri do a long ball up to where the inside forward is. Typically the ball is cut out and instantly we are on the back foot again. We aren’t being clever with the ball at all and aren’t using it wisely. When these kind of passes are pulled off properly it’s a thing of beauty but it happens nowhere near frequent enough. Not only this but it’s making the whole side deeper than they actually should be. Every-time we get into situations like this, the same thing happens. We look to go from the front to the back in the quickest possible way. But because the ball gets cut out time and time again players are always deeper than they should be. Hence the average positions we saw at the very start.

attacking-six.png?resize=474%2C283&ssl=1

Here we another perfect example of what happens when we attack recklessly at speed and without precision. The ball is lost and a simple ball back into my own final third means my defenders yet again cannot push up because they have to deal with the opposition striker who stays high up the pitch. It’s killing my play because it’s not precise and well thought out football. The player’s highest up the field are isolated or drifting too deep because the rest of the side just cannot push up and are being bogged down.

It just goes to show though that because someone is meant to be positioned high up the pitch because of his mentality, doesn’t mean he is. All sorts of factors play a part in why he might be higher than normal or deeper than usual. So far in the examples you see players dropping off the front for two main reasons;

  • Bogged down and can’t move up field because we move the ball too fast for anyone to catch up. Going from a to b quickly isn’t always beneficial.
  • The second reason is, it’s hard to find space so players come deep in the hope of finding it.

It’s like a never-ending cycle, for this game at least. We still won the game and scored four goals but like I pointed out at the start, the score line is flattering when you take into consideration the own-goal and the two very late goals. On a different day this could have been a 1-1 draw without those bits of luck.

I’m not saying never play attacking football with this shape, far from it. It’s more about understanding how the shape plays on different mentalities and how it differs. If you want to play attacking football then play it. Just beware of how everything links together. Also remember that attacking doesn’t always translate to attacking.

Standard Mentality Match Analysis

standard-one.png?resize=474%2C275&ssl=1

It’s early in the game but you can see how deep my entire side is. Not only that, but my defensive midfielder is also picking up the opposition striker meaning my defence can stay intact and start moving higher up the pitch. My side is closing down and chasing the ball but I think you can already see how the small difference of the defensive midfielder picking up the striker is helping my back line and freeing them up, so they can push higher up. This is allowing me to reduce the space the opposition has in my own half as the defence is moving advanced up-field towards my own midfielders.

standard-two.png?resize=474%2C272&ssl=1

Nilmar has the ball and this time drives infield because he isn’t rushing play. And my Segundo Volante is in acres of space in the centre of the pitch and is a little bit more reserved in the build up play and isn’t looking to attack constantly when we get possession of the ball. He’s being more clever in his play.

standard-three.png?resize=474%2C275&ssl=

Due to team not all advancing forward and beyond the ball, it means we actually have space to run into and people creating and using space as we all move together. In this picture we have Yuri who can drive forward with the ball or play two different kinds of ball. One is a through ball straight down the middle for the inside forward to run onto. Or he can play it straight into the patch of the inside forward which is actually the more risky pass in this scenario due to how the opposition defender near the inside forward is positioned.

standard-four.png?resize=474%2C274&ssl=1

Yuri passes the ball through the middle, so basically a through ball for my inside forward to run onto. Now had the side not moved together and a relatively steady pace this move wouldn’t have happened. Or if it was on a higher mentality than standard, the chances are the ball would have been played first time from Yuri instead of him driving forward a little with the ball at his feet first. Our play now is more dangerous because we are playing as a unit, all of the team moving up and down the field at the same time. This is one of the reasons why the average positions in this mentality structure are actually higher than the attacking ones. Because we are moving and working as a cohesive unit.

Bruno manages to get onto the end of the ball but is fouled literally on the edge of the box and we win a free kick in a dangerous place.

standard-five.png?resize=474%2C271&ssl=1

In the attacking section further up, I showed the inside forward playing closer to the oppositions fullback(A) and leaving my own wingback exposed and susceptible to 1v1 scenarios. However now, we can see my inside forward is much deeper and inside my own half picking up the oppositions wide player. This means my wingback is free and can recover any loose balls or pick the player up should my inside forward not get the ball. Less pressure on the wingback is great as it means he is less likely to be exposed. Not only this but if he wins the ball back, he can also run with it down the wing and channel, which would put the opposition on the back foot.

standard-six.png?resize=474%2C272&ssl=1

I win possession of the ball back here deep inside my own half. But if you look at my players positioning, it’s not bad because they have space. The left sided inside forward and the deep-lying midfielder are already doing their job. The inside forward is pushing up behind the fullback into were the space is. While the deep-lying forward keeps the two central defenders busy. Yuri the Segundo Volante can be seen unmarked in the centre of the pitch. So my defenders play him the ball.

standard-seven.png?resize=474%2C320&ssl=

Yuri passes the ball to the attacking midfielder, Lucas Lima. He then hit it first time into the path of the inside forward because he was already aware of his run. Now Bruno Henrique is onside and away causing them all kinds of problems. You will have noticed I mentioned that in attacking mentalities the space is in front of the opposition players and when playing on lower mentalities or using players further down the pitch, then the space exists in behind the opposition. This is a prime example of what I’m usually talking about. Due to me being deeper this makes the opposition higher up when they break forward. So when they lose the ball we get situations like this and I can hit them with clever counter attacks or clever direct forward balls.

There was no chance of this happening on the attacking mentality because the player was either too advanced, or forced to come deep because he was marked, bringing the marker with him. Also because it encourages getting the ball forward quickly, Yuri might have bypassed Lucas Lima in this move and looked to hit the striker or even the inside forward much earlier. This can make moves break down. On this occasion though we are more calculated in our play and it’s not rushed. Instead the players are deciding when to take risks and the risks they do take are more likely to be successful.

standard-8.png?resize=474%2C275&ssl=1

This is the same move just shown from a different angle for better illustrate it. The inside forward Bruno Henrique drive forward with the ball when he received it from Lucas Lima. You can see that the opposition centrebacks have been split, one of them has gone very deep leaving the striker alone in space. While the other one has gone across to deal with the inside forward. Now Bruno Henrique can do a simple sideway pass to Ricardo Oliveira who has lots of time and space. He drives forward a little bit after receiving the ball and let’s go of a fierce shot which flies past the goal by inches. It’s a brilliantly worked team move which should have seen a goal scored. It all started with my central defender too.

I’m not saying people can’t play on higher mentalities far from it. But you have to realise how they differ from the lower mentalities. Not only this but it’s vital you understand how the mentality works with the roles and duties you use. If you use aggressive roles and an aggressive mentality like a Segundo Volante on an attacking mentality, then you’ll see him venture forward constant with disregard for any danger he might be leaving behind. While on a lower mentality you should see him play slightly different and work better and make more intelligent runs and passes. He will still take risks but those risks will happen as and when he believes the right time to take them. Rather than allowing the mentality of the team to decide he should do it more frequently.

I’ve shown examples of why I prefer lower mentalities. It’s probably not as many examples as you wanted but the article is already far too long and I didn’t want to waffle on.

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I've been using Standard and Control at most in the 4-2-3-1DM tactic, as I said in main post it was just a screenshot that was supposed to show the roles & duties.

The main reason I used a Control mentality was because I thought my Regista might not have a risky Individual mentality so he might just play the ball around without taking risks.

Edited by Armistice

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35 minutes ago, Armistice said:

I've been using Standard and Control at most in the 4-2-3-1DM tactic, as I said in main post it was just a screenshot that was supposed to show the roles & duties.

The main reason I used a Control mentality was because I thought my Regista might not have a risky Individual mentality so he might just play the ball around without taking risks.

This makes zero sense. That would mean player roles only worked on higher mentalities following this logic. Like I've told you a million times before, forget everything you think you know about the game and start with a clean slate. You're still thinking stuff can't work etc before you even try it. You defeat yourself time and time again by overthinking or by having 'set ideas' about what can/can't work.

You're always asking for help and people give it, yet when you next post you still do the same things that people have advised you against doing and you wonder why you don't have success or can't play the way you want. It's like you don't really take it on board then you take pot shots at the game, the forum and those who go out of their way to help folk because of the things you keep doing. It's also one of the reasons many people avoid certain threads done by some users now because people build up a reputation of asking the same stuff over and over. It's like groundhog day. It's not that people don't expect you to ask the same questions, it's more the point that everything you ask all reverts back to the same thing. And that is your own mindset and pre set rules/ideas. This is why you need to forget what you think you know and learn again. It's so hard to even begin to help because I'd spend an hour writing out a detailed post and by the time it's been posted you've changed your mind 3 or 4 times in the process and play different to what I was originally replying to. 

If you want to be successful on FM then honestly leave your previous knowledge out of it and relearn how to play. Understand the basics. If you thought your Regista wouldn't do anything other than playing the ball around without risks, why didn't you look at his actual instructions? You'd have seen very clearly what he would be doing frequently and what he wouldn't. All the info needed is there in the game you're just not using it. Read the role descriptions. They might not be the most in-depth but they're more than helpful for telling you what behaviour you should expect to see. And for the stuff it doesn't tell you, you can see on the instructions page. You can see the mentality of the players, how they're set up to pass, if they can run with the ball etc.

Also;

Quote

For now I scrapped the idea of using the 4-3-3DM and I’m trying to make the 4-2-3-1DM work. I’ve picked Control Mentality but as you can see, it’s having some issues.

Every time you have an issue you change rather than figuring out your issues and why it's happening. It's like you're just hopping around hoping you stumble across something. Even if that did happen which is unlikely, you'd still not understand why you had success because you aren't learning the simple stuff. The game isn't complex, its the user who makes it difficult. Stop chopping and changing constantly and work on getting your ideas to work and if at first it doesn't work that's fine. Ideas are what you work towards and aren't something that just happen straight away for 99% of people. Your ideas are the end goal of your save and what you work towards. You can start implementing them now but it takes time to play the way you imagine because you'll need ppm's/specific players/specific attributes and so on. So don't get frustrated if something isn't working straight away.

Just relax and build towards it.

 

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You are right indeed, but if I forget everything, I mean everything I learned over the years, then I might go with a Poacher upfront and two attacking Inside Forwards + Attacking Mentality. :lol:

If you mean forget the set ideas and what can/can't work before testing, but keep in mind the basic stuff I learned like balance etc, then you're making a point.

Edited by Armistice

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10 minutes ago, Armistice said:

You are right indeed, but if I forget everything, I mean everything I learned over the years, then I might go with a Poacher upfront and two attacking Inside Forwards + Attacking Mentality. :lol:

If you mean forget the set ideas and what can/can't work before testing, but keep in mind the basic stuff I learned like balance etc, then you're making a point.

This 100%. Start reading the role descriptions and looking at the settings they have. Then decide if that's what you want the player doing or not. Then either add/remove some player instructions or find a different role that does the things you are wanting. Also if for example you was using a playmaker role, then look at the roles around him and see who is he creating for. The same if you have a striker up front, how does he get the ball? Who is providing it to him and what kind of supply is it? i.e crosses from wingers, throughballs from a MC/AMC or maybe knock downs from a strike partner. 

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Okay I will try this approach, it's not much different than what I was doing before so I don't know how much it's gonna improve my skills...

Anyway do you think I should start with a new team, so I can learn its players attributes etc or should I know with a team I know like Spurs?

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2 hours ago, Armistice said:

Okay I will try this approach, it's not much different than what I was doing before so I don't know how much it's gonna improve my skills...

Anyway do you think I should start with a new team, so I can learn its players attributes etc or should I know with a team I know like Spurs?

I'd stick with a team that you know personally, that way you know what each player is capable of and how that will impact upon how you've set the team out to play. For example, I wanted to play quick transition football so I chose Bournemouth as they've got a lot of fast players, which i'm familiar with IRL. How's it going?

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22 minutes ago, jc577 said:

I'd stick with a team that you know personally, that way you know what each player is capable of and how that will impact upon how you've set the team out to play. For example, I wanted to play quick transition football so I chose Bournemouth as they've got a lot of fast players, which i'm familiar with IRL. How's it going?

I’m tempted to start over again as the players have already started complaining about losing faith in me.

Another issue is that I don’t know what style of football to implement, all I know is that I want to learn how to create and exploit space especially against deep defences as I’ve struggled ever since I started to try to create my own tactics. Then as I gradually learn, I’ll decide to implement the style I want which is usually close to the real life.

 

Also not sure if I should keep insisting with the 4-2-3-1 or one of its variants or try something different.

Edited by Armistice

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37 minutes ago, Armistice said:

Also not sure if I should keep insisting with the 4-2-3-1 or one of its variants or try something different.

Cleon already answered that...

8 hours ago, Cleon said:

Every time you have an issue you change rather than figuring out your issues and why it's happening. It's like you're just hopping around hoping you stumble across something. Even if that did happen which is unlikely, you'd still not understand why you had success because you aren't learning the simple stuff. The game isn't complex, its the user who makes it difficult. Stop chopping and changing constantly and work on getting your ideas to work and if at first it doesn't work that's fine. Ideas are what you work towards and aren't something that just happen straight away for 99% of people. Your ideas are the end goal of your save and what you work towards. You can start implementing them now but it takes time to play the way you imagine because you'll need ppm's/specific players/specific attributes and so on. So don't get frustrated if something isn't working straight away.

I know you're frustrated but how much help do you think you'll continue to enjoy if you ask for help, get it and then completely change things?  People are giving up their own time to help you, don't take it for granted and don't waste their time.

Anyway, have you actually read Cleon's long post above which is about the exact formation you are attempting?  If you have, which part(s) are you struggling to understand?  Try discussing that rather than asking your questions, getting answers and then saying "sod it, TL;DR, I don't understand, I'll just move on to something else".

You'll very quickly run out of people willing to help if you carry on as you are.

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2 hours ago, Armistice said:

I’m tempted to start over again as the players have already started complaining about losing faith in me.

Another issue is that I don’t know what style of football to implement, all I know is that I want to learn how to create and exploit space especially against deep defences as I’ve struggled ever since I started to try to create my own tactics. Then as I gradually learn, I’ll decide to implement the style I want which is usually close to the real life.

 

Also not sure if I should keep insisting with the 4-2-3-1 or one of its variants or try something different.

I don't think it's beneficial for you to create tactics with solely this in mind; a well-thought out and balanced tactic will do this 90% of the time anyway. Cleon has already given you part of the answer to this though, which is to use lower mentalities. When breaking down buses, patience is a virtue, one that isn't really present when playing on higher mentalities such as Control/Attacking. IMO, patience, width, movement, and runners from deep are the key to unlocking defensive sides.

And the important thing is to try not to get frustrated (easier said than done, I know). Sometimes you won't win games and your team will play like s***, it happens. Even tactical geniuses like Rashidi lose the odd game here and there, and the amount of time/level of detail this guy puts into the game is just insane. For now i'd say stick with the 4231, read Cleon's article, throw something together and go from there.

Funnily enough I was reading @herne79's 442 thread the other day, especially the part where he was analysing how the tactic played out, and instead of thinking about things like tempo, width etc, he focused on how his player's were moving; more specifically if their movements/on the ball actions were as he outlined in his initial vision. It makes perfect sense.. it's a lot harder to spot those sort of things, but pausing the game and asking 'does my playmaker have passing options' or 'is my forward stretching the D-line' is relatively easy to see. 

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1 hour ago, jc577 said:

And the important thing is to try not to get frustrated (easier said than done, I know). Sometimes you won't win games and your team will play like s***, it happens.

If the aim is footie sim, it better should. :p In football, there is only this much control a manager has. Another idea may be to actually get out there and smell the roses. That is, actually watching on streaming/Tube platforms how your typical player actually plays the game -- who doesn't frequent these or any forums an iota. With bigger sides, it's pretty easy to find let's play's specifically with that club. It may put things a few into perspective rather quickly, and also show how much leeway the game actually gives (in parts, arguably due to AI) but still. Some treat this like some diploma, when the game is evidently coded for something else. There was even a video out there somewhere showing how SI internal staff plays the game. Pretty revealing.

The main frustration this game can cause (unless you are completely clueless about how football is kicked on a pitch) is that the game is still far too technical in its FM lingo (which long-term players and devs alike are blind to see due to having been so close to the game for long, which isn't their fault but common place occurance in any field). That's a completely artificially hurdle, and I still maintain it's been actually made progressively worse from when the Tactics Creator was first introduced, with stuff being progressively interlinked. Different topic though.

Edited by Svenc

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Alright guys I think you are right, I will read Cleon's post above first then get back in game with Spurs trying to fix the issues with my 4-2-3-1. I will keep the Regista then look what I can do with the attacking four. I will start with the basic Standard + Flexible combo and no TI. I will post bits of analysis and try to understand why things don't happen the way I want and how to fix it.

 

Ok I finished pre-season, it's been rather terrible despite winning the games which is not even important at this point honestly because it happened through lucky rebounds, corners or long shots outside the box. I can't seem to create anything solid and I have no idea anymore what to look at/edit. :idiot:

Okay, using the Standard mentality has improved build-up play I mean players are not rushing to launch the ball forward, not sure if players drop deeper because it's not noticeable for me because I can't make a difference between Control and Standard, but yeah, transitions are decent until we get past our own half when Raum + DLF-are sitting too far away from the rest of the team and they're picked with a long ball. Now I understand why Raum is far, but I don't get it why DLF is not dropping that much, he's often sitting around the CBs and the whole opposition team stays deep so that means he's actually between a group of 4-5 players which is obviously making him not a passing option.

When the season starts I'm going to post pictures of transitions and where they break out and if I notice anything before that.

Edited by Armistice

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9 hours ago, Armistice said:

Alright guys I think you are right, I will read Cleon's post above first then get back in game with Spurs trying to fix the issues with my 4-2-3-1. I will keep the Regista then look what I can do with the attacking four. I will start with the basic Standard + Flexible combo and no TI. I will post bits of analysis and try to understand why things don't happen the way I want and how to fix it.

 

Ok I finished pre-season, it's been rather terrible despite winning the games which is not even important at this point honestly because it happened through lucky rebounds, corners or long shots outside the box. I can't seem to create anything solid and I have no idea anymore what to look at/edit. :idiot:

Okay, using the Standard mentality has improved build-up play I mean players are not rushing to launch the ball forward, not sure if players drop deeper because it's not noticeable for me because I can't make a difference between Control and Standard, but yeah, transitions are decent until we get past our own half when Raum + DLF-are sitting too far away from the rest of the team and they're picked with a long ball. Now I understand why Raum is far, but I don't get it why DLF is not dropping that much, he's often sitting around the CBs and the whole opposition team stays deep so that means he's actually between a group of 4-5 players which is obviously making him not a passing option.

When the season starts I'm going to post pictures of transitions and where they break out and if I notice anything before that.

Pause the game when you see that and take a picture, then post it here. Are you sure your DLF is on Support? The tactic you posted has him on Attacking duty. Still, it shouldn't be a problem as you have AMC and IF on support, plus RGA pushing from deeper. They should all be able to find/supply your RMD and DLF. 

Pay attention to how players move and link together. I understand that you want a tactic based on Regista running the show. Do you a player capable of playing that role at Tottenham? I can't think of one in the current squad. Also, why have you selected the rest the of the roles, especially the 4 up front?

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Okay I'm reviewing the first game of the season, 4-1 away win at Watford. Very good long shots stats this time around (14 total shots, 11 on target), let's talk a bit about what I found in this game so far.

 

EIU6i6u.jpg

 

In this situation, one of my players was fouled in near the touchline so Lloris took the kick. He passed it to Gaya, my LB and he ran with the ball forward. Once Watford's number 7 goes to press him, he has passing options. First is Son, our number 7, the Raumd. Then we've got the player I highlighted, number 34 William Carvalho, the Regista, also the DM-S, Dier. So he picks Carvalho for a pass.

 

pfaRbXK.jpg

 

Here we see Carvalho on the ball, just look at the massive space vacated by the Regista roaming and leaving his position. I'm talking about the space infront of my number 4, the right CB. Honestly I'm not a big fan of roaming (in general) because first of all, I'm not sure if it's helping my whole attacking plan or not so I prefer not to pick something I don't have much knowledge about. In this particular case I would say it doesn't really help me because Gaya had decent passing options anyway, another one didn't help much. Might consider changing the Regista to a DLP-S. But again, not decided, so need some help to clarify this.

 

w8XXBAa.jpg

 

Carvalho passes it to Eriksen. Again, big amount of space in the middle. Eriksen's only passing options are the winger or to pass it back to the CBs which is possible but sometimes unlikely to do. So he obviously picked the unmarked winger who made a run down the right flank before being tackled by Watford's player. In this picture you can also see how Kane is in line with the only attacking duty in the team, the Raum on the left. That's only a brief situation when Kane is a bit too advanced for my liking and therefore is not a passing option.

 

Another situation that shows how advanced Kane is. Here the ball was recovered by Son who passed it to my AMC who dropped deep as you can see.

 

Uhq0uqT.jpg

 

 

 

And also, to clarify, this is what I am trying right now.

 

E0IJCXR.png

 

I will explain what and why I changed. Swapped the two DMs around. I thought that a DM might cover better my left wingback as the Raum won't track back that much. Also, as I said above, because Regista roams from position, it might leave my LB isolated and unable to pick a good pass.

Also, the DLF's duty moved down to support. I used an attack duty DLF because I saw Cleon use it and I thought that if it's working for him should work for me too. Also my reasoning was that an attack duty could help him become a much bigger attacking threat. Well, I decided to give him a support duty because I thought sometimes he was in the box early (kind of) and he was well marked by two CBs so I thought if he was going to attack the box later, he might be free of his marker(s).

Edited by Armistice

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GAkxVrL.png

 

Let's talk about shots from outside the box first.

 

1. Off target shot from #23 was a free-kick.

2. Shot saved from #34 was from a corner. My corner taker passed the ball to #34 who took a shot.

3. Shot saved from #23 was from a free-kick.

 

Oops just noticed I double posted. Can a mod merge the two posts pls?

Edited by Armistice

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So you start a thread based on the idea of building a tactic around a Regista. But after the first game of the season analysis you start to question it and consider changing it to DLP. I think one of your biggest problems is that you don't know what you want. And you don't know what you want because you don't know what each role does and they interact.

The space the RGA leaves when you have the ball is not a problem while you're having the ball. It may (the keyword is "may") become a problem when you loose the ball and if the opposition have a player who will move into it.

You will always leave spaces open when you're attacking. That's part of the natural process. Focus on the RGA - what he does and who does he combine with.

 

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24 minutes ago, yonko said:

So you start a thread based on the idea of building a tactic around a Regista. But after the first game of the season analysis you start to question it and consider changing it to DLP. I think one of your biggest problems is that you don't know what you want. And you don't know what you want because you don't know what each role does and they interact.

The space the RGA leaves when you have the ball is not a problem while you're having the ball. It may (the keyword is "may") become a problem when you loose the ball and if the opposition have a player who will move into it.

You will always leave spaces open when you're attacking. That's part of the natural process. Focus on the RGA - what he does and who does he combine with.

 

Yeah I thought about it after posting that and realized exactly what you said about the Regista. Okay so honestly this whole idea started from reading about depth and how important is to have some players in deeper positions to recycle possession when attacking in your opponent half. Then I thought hey what if I have a creative role that is not closed down as much as the more attacking players because of his deeper position and therefore he might be able to find a much better passing option to split the defence. Of course that is not always possible because the space might not be there so I guess my judgement was purely based on an idea that wasn't much right.

But as I said, I feel a bit uncomfortable when Regista roams around because if we're to switch the ball from left to right, the winger usually have less passing options. I'll just leave it as it is right now because I want to see how we do in the next game.

Edited by Armistice

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I don't see any issue with the space in front of your number 4 in that situation, its still a 3-2 if your REG gives it away but he should be reliable with possession if he's playing that role.

Beware changing things because of situations you don't like, remember to watch the situation that work well and if you'd lose them, its always a balance.  If no good is coming from something then sure its obvious something needs to change but since you won 4-1, i'm guessing some good things happened.

My #1 issue is how deep the AMC comes, apart from short lateral/backwards passes the only option he has to get the ball forward is a long ball over the top for RMD + DLF to run onto or a long wide ball to the W-S.  I'd switch from AP-S, he isn't needed that deep, the DM-S + REG-S are just standing around and could of had the ball with the AMC providing a more advanced option to break the midfield line.

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9 hours ago, summatsupeer said:

My #1 issue is how deep the AMC comes, apart from short lateral/backwards passes the only option he has to get the ball forward is a long ball over the top for RMD + DLF to run onto or a long wide ball to the W-S.  I'd switch from AP-S, he isn't needed that deep, the DM-S + REG-S are just standing around and could of had the ball with the AMC providing a more advanced option to break the midfield line.

Okay so an attack duty is it then?

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 I used an attack duty DLF because I saw Cleon use it and I thought that if it's working for him should work for me too

But if you'd actually read the posts you'd have seen it wasn't just down to him being on an attack duty why it worked. It was the combination of what the DLF on attack and what he did for the AM and the IF. It was all about the trio and what it offered and not just the one role. Without the play from the IF and the behaviour of the AMC it wouldn't have worked the same. I highlighted this in the posts. You should have known your set up is different as you use different roles.

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1 hour ago, Cleon said:

But if you'd actually read the posts you'd have seen it wasn't just down to him being on an attack duty why it worked. It was the combination of what the DLF on attack and what he did for the AM and the IF. It was all about the trio and what it offered and not just the one role. Without the play from the IF and the behaviour of the AMC it wouldn't have worked the same. I highlighted this in the posts. You should have known your set up is different as you use different roles.

Yeah it's my mistake, I get impressed by some ideas I see in your articles and want to have them in my own tactic.

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22 hours ago, Armistice said:

Yeah I thought about it after posting that and realized exactly what you said about the Regista. Okay so honestly this whole idea started from reading about depth and how important is to have some players in deeper positions to recycle possession when attacking in your opponent half. Then I thought hey what if I have a creative role that is not closed down as much as the more attacking players because of his deeper position and therefore he might be able to find a much better passing option to split the defence. Of course that is not always possible because the space might not be there so I guess my judgement was purely based on an idea that wasn't much right.

But as I said, I feel a bit uncomfortable when Regista roams around because if we're to switch the ball from left to right, the winger usually have less passing options. I'll just leave it as it is right now because I want to see how we do in the next game.

I don't mean to pile up more on top of you, but....honestly how from that idea you arrived at the decision to base a whole tactic on the role of Regista without knowing what the role actually does or if you have the right player for the role to pull it off, it's really strange to me.

And the analysis you posted above has nothing to do with depth and recycling possession or how the Regista helps facilitate that. 

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27 minutes ago, Armistice said:

Alright, then what do you purpose I should do?

Study and learn. 

If you want to play with Tottenham, create a tactic based on their strengths and what the players are best at doing. 

If you want to create a tactic based on a concept or idea, make sure it's on solid, well-thought of one. And make sure you pick the right team with the right players.

Based on the multiple threads asking for help that I've seen from you, I think you should start with something more simple and general as concept, rather than trying to create a tactic based on a single role. I think it's too demanding for you and your knowledge level, no offense.

Try to create a tactic based on style of play or based on players' best qualities. 

 

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40 minutes ago, yonko said:

Study and learn. 

If you want to play with Tottenham, create a tactic based on their strengths and what the players are best at doing. 

If you want to create a tactic based on a concept or idea, make sure it's on solid, well-thought of one. And make sure you pick the right team with the right players.

Based on the multiple threads asking for help that I've seen from you, I think you should start with something more simple and general as concept, rather than trying to create a tactic based on a single role. I think it's too demanding for you and your knowledge level, no offense.

Try to create a tactic based on style of play or based on players' best qualities. 

 

Study and learn what?

 

I'm only trying to make an effective attacking tactic mate, honestly that's all I am looking for. I kept using these fancy roles in my setups because I took some ideas from other guys and tried them in my tactics which never worked obviously because that's not how things are in this game. But I can guarantee that if I make a tactic with some roles and keep some balance in the setup I will struggle aswell, so honestly I don't even know what to think anymore really. :eek:

Edited by Armistice

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51 minutes ago, Armistice said:

Study and learn what?

 

I'm only trying to make an effective attacking tactic mate, honestly that's all I am looking for. I kept using these fancy roles in my setups because I took some ideas from other guys and tried them in my tactics which never worked obviously because that's not how things are in this game. But I can guarantee that if I make a tactic with some roles and keep some balance in the setup I will struggle aswell, so honestly I don't even know what to think anymore really. :eek:

Why will you struggle if your tactic is balanced mate? :)

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59 minutes ago, Armistice said:

Study and learn what?

 

I'm only trying to make an effective attacking tactic mate, honestly that's all I am looking for. I kept using these fancy roles in my setups because I took some ideas from other guys and tried them in my tactics which never worked obviously because that's not how things are in this game. But I can guarantee that if I make a tactic with some roles and keep some balance in the setup I will struggle aswell, so honestly I don't even know what to think anymore really. :eek:

Study and learn everything obviously.

If your tactic is balanced then you wouldn't be struggling. The problem is you take ideas from others without understanding why it works for them and why it doesn't work for you. It's like when you use fancy words in foreign language out of context.

Effective attacking tactic.....what is that in your mind? Start there. Who does what in this tactic? Who's scoring the goals, who is supplying/creating the chances and who is winning the ball back?

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24 minutes ago, yonko said:

Study and learn everything obviously.

If your tactic is balanced then you wouldn't be struggling. The problem is you take ideas from others without understanding why it works for them and why it doesn't work for you. It's like when you use fancy words in foreign language out of context.

Effective attacking tactic.....what is that in your mind? Start there. Who does what in this tactic? Who's scoring the goals, who is supplying/creating the chances and who is winning the ball back?

Okay, I'm always starting with that in mind, but then what? Put out roles and duties and have balance and it should work?

Edited by Armistice

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1 hour ago, Armistice said:

Okay, I'm always starting with that in mind, but then what? Put out roles and duties and have balance and it should work?

It may not work straight away. Keep on eye on things in pre-season; see what’s working/not working (paying particular attention to passing options/player movements) and post your findings here, i’m sure people will be happy to help. Avoid making any changes in pre-season for at least 3/4 games so that you know what you’re seeing is an actual issue and not a one-off. 

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4 hours ago, Armistice said:

Okay, I'm always starting with that in mind, but then what? Put out roles and duties and have balance and it should work?

I haven't seen you start there. 

Who will score goals? Who will create chances? Who will defend? Who will link the lines? How are the roles going to connect and form a cohesive team?

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6 hours ago, yonko said:

I haven't seen you start there. 

Who will score goals? Who will create chances? Who will defend? Who will link the lines? How are the roles going to connect and form a cohesive team?

For example in the tactic I posted above. Who will score goals? DLF and Raum. Who will create chances? Hopefully AP and maybe the Regista. DLF can also contribute with some of his risky passes for the Raum. Winger maybe by putting in crosses. Who will defend? The CBs obviously and the other DM. Because my fullbacks are not very aggressive, they’re expected to be deeper too. Then the Regista will also drop deep and help the defence. As for the last question well I already posted analysis screenshots if you wanna call them that way that shows some issues with the space between the striker and my AMC so taking summat advice, a more aggressive duty could help decrease the space.

So tell me what’s wrong in my plan? Seems alright to me to start with, yet chances are still poor.

Edited by Armistice

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DLF on support can score goals but that is not his primary purpose. He drops and links play between midfield and attack. He's more of a provider/creator. I would change this role to CF-S, if you want to stay with support duty, or DLF-A.

Eriksen is too deep as the AP-S. You do not need him that deep because you have RGA who you want to run the show. I would try AM-S, AP-A or even AM-A and see which one puts him in best position to link the midfield with your goalscorers. 

In matches look at the interaction between RGA, AMC and the Winger. See if and how they create for the ST and the RMD. Also pay attention to your fullbacks and how they contribute.

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Slightly off topic but do you need to have a playmaker in your setup? 

I have always included a playmaker thinking that you need a primary creator, but is this the case?  I might look at using the Regista as my main playmaker same as this thread, but if I dont need a playmaker then I wont bother.

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18 hours ago, yonko said:

DLF on support can score goals but that is not his primary purpose. He drops and links play between midfield and attack. He's more of a provider/creator. I would change this role to CF-S, if you want to stay with support duty, or DLF-A.

Eriksen is too deep as the AP-S. You do not need him that deep because you have RGA who you want to run the show. I would try AM-S, AP-A or even AM-A and see which one puts him in best position to link the midfield with your goalscorers. 

In matches look at the interaction between RGA, AMC and the Winger. See if and how they create for the ST and the RMD. Also pay attention to your fullbacks and how they contribute.

I'm going to try these ideas along and post screenshots of what I will find. I tried an AP-A briefly as it's been suggested in the game v Leicester City (won it 1-0 through a penalty, pretty poor otherwise) and Eriksen was still deep.

 

@edhdurham - For me, at this point, a playmaker is a player with very good technical ability and maybe a stand-out player (or one of those anyway) in the team and someone I want to channel my play through. I admit in this situation I used a Regista for the sake of it without knowing what he does exactly. Then I used another playmaker (the AP) because it was suggested above that if the Regista might have a bad game, then I should have another player to channel the playmaking.

Edited by Armistice

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3 hours ago, Armistice said:

Then I used another playmaker (the AP) because it was suggested above that if the Regista might have a bad game, then I should have another player to channel the playmaking.

Ah ok, well that helps as I have a tactic that worked ok with two playmakers, so I might go back to that and try and tweak it slightly....  

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Not every playmaker needs to be the primary creator. In fact, you don't even need that role for someone to be the primary creator. Ideally you want multiple creators of different roles and multiple scorers as well. You want to have a multidimensional attack with various ways of attacking, creating and scoring.

Give a playmaking role to someone who you want to be involved the most with the ball in your team. That can be someone to help transition the ball from defense into midfield or from midfield into the attack.

@Rashidi did a guide on his channel last year for FM17 on playmakers

 

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