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vandamme22

completely lost - away crises

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So I've reached a point that I am thinking to give up with fm18. No matter what I set up tactically I have absolutely no control of what happens in the away games. There is no consistency of the team or player performance.

I don't wanna write a roman but I try to sum up the issue. Like every FM version I play actually a save with fc bayern munich to also learn and to be familiar with the new fm features.

First I ve started with a 4-2-3-1 formation (the two central midfielders played as mcs not dmc's). After some bad away losses I changed to a 4-4-1-1. Like you all know its very hard to get defensive stability with only two mc players in a 4-2-3-1 and beacause I didn't like to play like in cleons thread explained with two dmc players I switched to 4-4-1-1.

My main issue is that the opponents had a lot of shots against me despite I play a aggressive pressing and possesion based game.

Second problem is that only 41% of my shots are on target, despite a patient possession based game.

This is my standard set up for this formation. From time to time I change following things:

  • Reduce pressing from much more to more
  • Change role from IFW to Winger to become more width

FCBayernMnchen_Overview.png

Thats my last away result: This is one of the games which I played better than the home team, but despite the good performance I ve lost and I don't know why??? 

FrankfurtvFCBayern_AnalysisAnalysis.png

FrankfurtvFCBayern_AnalysisAnalysis-2.pn

Beacause of the bad results away I am only second in the league and this is very bad with bayern. I ve had dominated in every fm version with fcb, but in this version I don't even know what to know.

Bundesliga_OverviewStages.png

I would be much delight If you can help me because I am still after 4 seasons titles in this fm version. (3 season with besiktas and 1 with bayern) and I am really thinking of giving up this game because I cant find a solution the resolve the away game issue.

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Can you post a link to a larger version of your tactic?  Its slightly blurred so struggling to read it.

If i'm reading it right I think you might want to be a bit more conservative with the number of players your committing forward.  You have both Wing Backs making forward runs along with two IW getting forward and coming inside where there is already a SS and DF plus a CM-S who could push up around the box as well.  That's a lot of players in and around the area especially for a "possession" tactic which would typically have more "to feet" options and less crossing focus.

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Sorry for that :)

FCBayernMnchen_Overview.png

I use IW instead of wingers to have still a narrow set up to play possession based style. Sometimes if the opponent overcrowd the middle I switch one of the IW to a winger to get more witdh in my game.

Its a complete forward in combination with a shadow striker.

Which set up of player roles and duties would you recommend me to still play a possession, pressing and attacking game without overcrowd the middle of the box and concede at the meantime so many long shots from the opponent.

 

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I haven't used a SS for a while but I don't like that front 4 combination especially if your expecting patient play.  Both forwards are trying risky passes and all 4 are running with the ball.  Plus I feel like the forwards are moving into same areas the IW on there flank is looking to use.

Defensively your pressing much more which pushes your d-line up, but look at those CBs. If my memory serves me right they are slow and poor agility so will struggle to deal with fast forwards dribbling down flanks or getting to a through ball first.  In terms of forward personnel isn't rodriguez more of a creator and Lew' whilst is good all round is more of a goal scorer? 

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Actually 41% shot on target is a good value. In my current Milan save Napoli is first with 45% with me in second with 42%, so this seems alright.

I think your issue is the combination of playing Standard + Closing Down Much More without a pushed up D-line. You don't compress the space for the opposition enough and your players have to cover a lot of ground making the pressing a lot less effective. It actually makes you more vulnerable as the opposition will have arces of space once some of your players are out of position. At home they will push less bodies forward so you probably get away with it, but away the opposition will be less conservative.

If I remember correctly Süle is quite slow and Hummels isn't the fastest either so a higher defensive line could be dangerous (through balls and counter attacks), so I would reduce closing down or use CBs who could pull off a higher D-line.

Edited by BadanieLuck

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Am 7.4.2018 um 13:15 schrieb summatsupeer:

I haven't used a SS for a while but I don't like that front 4 combination especially if your expecting patient play.  Both forwards are trying risky passes and all 4 are running with the ball.  Plus I feel like the forwards are moving into same areas the IW on there flank is looking to use.

I like the SS role but never make it to work. Normal I play Thomas Müller as SS but he was not so in good shape so I used james rodriguez. How would you distribute the roles and duties of the front 4 players. 

Defensively your pressing much more which pushes your d-line up, but look at those CBs. If my memory serves me right they are slow and poor agility so will struggle to deal with fast forwards dribbling down flanks or getting to a through ball first.  In terms of forward personnel isn't rodriguez more of a creator and Lew' whilst is good all round is more of a goal scorer? 

You are absolutely right. Süle has 11 acceleration and 17 pace. Hummels has 9 acceleration and 12 pace. Boateng is not available but he has 13 acc. and 17 pace.

But how can I play a high pressing game without a higher defensive line? I mean also in real life bayern play with a higer dl. Should I press with individual player instructions? 

 

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vor 21 Stunden schrieb BadanieLuck:

Actually 41% shot on target is a good value. In my current Milan save Napoli is first with 45% with me in second with 42%, so this seems alright.

I think your issue is the combination of playing Standard + Closing Down Much More without a pushed up D-line. You don't compress the space for the opposition enough and your players have to cover a lot of ground making the pressing a lot less effective. It actually makes you more vulnerable as the opposition will have arces of space once some of your players are out of position. At home they will push less bodies forward so you probably get away with it, but away the opposition will be less conservative.

If I remember correctly Süle is quite slow and Hummels isn't the fastest either so a higher defensive line could be dangerous (through balls and counter attacks), so I would reduce closing down or use CBs who could pull off a higher D-line.

I also used a higher defensive line but then got the problem with the slowness of my cds. How would you play a pressing game? With bayern I can't imagine to sit deep and speculate on counter attacks.

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Am 7.4.2018 um 04:42 schrieb D_LO_:

Both in terms of retaining possession and defensive frailties, changing your wing-backs to full-backs will give you more insurance defensively whilst they will also recycle play more from deeper. Same would apply without the automatic cross more often PI on Alaba.

 

I've been playing 442 a lot recently and I rarely opt for WB roles unless the opposition is going ultra defensive, i.e. 5-4-1. Against 2 man strike-forces you'll be frequently leaving yourself 2v2 at the back. I'm not familiar with Hummels and Sule on FM but if it's accurate to RL they aren't the quickest. You look very vulnerable to balls, basically into any of the plenty of vacant space I'd imagine around your CBs, be it behind or into the flanks. Structured, fast transitioning, counter-attacking teams must have a lot of joy against you. 

 

I find FB positioning a big problem this year as it is and I play far more conservative roles (often an IW(d) & FB(d) but I manage poor teams with players with poor positioning) but even this and a deeper defensive line doesn't always solve the problems with balls over the top and in behind the full-back. (This is one of the big challenges of playing with a back 4 without a DM as it is, let alone with 2 wing-backs as well.)

 

Your players are far better so you might be able to get away with a FB(a) but if it was me, personally, the opposite full-back would need to then be on a defend duty to add some defensive balance.

 

A wider role in midfield with give a better passing option too whilst you may or may not already do this but goal-keeper distribution is a big influencer of possession too from my experience. Keep it short to full-backs or centre-backs depending on how the opposition covers would cut down the aimless punts up field. 

 

I've already tried with a fb s and fb but with no success in away games.

I've already set th gk distribution to my fullbacks.

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vor 11 Stunden schrieb vandamme22:

I also used a higher defensive line but then got the problem with the slowness of my cds. How would you play a pressing game? With bayern I can't imagine to sit deep and speculate on counter attacks.

Like I said, either play with or get CBs who are able to play with a higher line (need decent acceleration, pace) or you could remove the 'Close Down Much More' TI and use the closing down PIs for specific players except for your defense. This way your strikers and midfield would still put pressure on the opposition while the defense would keep it's shape more. Watch some minutes of the game in 'Full Match' and see how it works. Maybe you also need to change Team Shape to a more fluid one to have less distance between your strikers and defense (again to compress the space), but you will only see that by watching the game.

Edited by BadanieLuck

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11 hours ago, vandamme22 said:

I like the SS role but never make it to work. Normal I play Thomas Müller as SS but he was not so in good shape so I used james rodriguez. How would you distribute the roles and duties of the front 4 players. 

I've not used Bayern in this version so pure theory. I would have Lew' leading the line CF-A with Rod' as AM-S behind him, both central rather than in a faux-442. If the central midfield pair were DMs then could give them more freedom to step up (into that CM area) but as they're CM's I'd want them both to hold (typically I use BWM/CM-D + DLP-S) to give the front 4 more space, especially with an aggressive WB getting high as well.  As Lew+Rod are a good scoring+creative pair and your wanting to create a patient style i'd be looking for the wide players to be supportive and not trying to force things with lots of risk. Looks like you have options on the flanks but just looking at the names they will be quite focused due to PPMs so you might have to create the variety by switching players  / subs depending on what you see happening.

Muller i've not looked at for a while so can't remember his exact attribute balance so where he would fit into the above plan.

Quote

You are absolutely right. Süle has 11 acceleration and 17 pace. Hummels has 9 acceleration and 12 pace. Boateng is not available but he has 13 acc. and 17 pace.

But how can I play a high pressing game without a higher defensive line? I mean also in real life bayern play with a higer dl. Should I press with individual player instructions?

If you try and press without a high line it will give space to play around the press rather than forcing a long ball over the top, but then you need to deal with those long balls.  Neuer as a SK-S/A could help with this though I see he is injured and I don't know the backups. Don't forget Agility+Anticipation either, being able to read what is going to happen and turn quickly can help make up for a lack of pure speed.  Personally i'd use Boateng+Sule if your going to press, as good as Hummels is he will be a risk against pure pace.  If you do use him I'd keep a FB (FB-D, FB-S, WB-D) back more often on his side to minimize how often he has to deal with winger/IF types.

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If it makes you feel any better the AI seems to have the same problem in away matches. In my current season I was really annoyed to see my few draws and losses were all away, but then I looked at the other teams around me at the top of the table and it was the exact same situation.  Well okay then, at least it's fair. :lol:

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So after a few changes the results were constant. But the necessary away stability is still not given. I'm still behind in the championship and I'am afraid to be without a title again. Please can you rate my two formations. I had never problem in a fm serie with bayern to win the league - never! 

I can beat real madrid easily @home and after three days I'cant win away against hannover who plays ten men almost 60 Minutes. I can't even describe whats going wrong..... I will stop playing and wait for your advices. thx!

Here are my last three away game stats:

2-1 lost dortmund, 0-0 hannover, 2-1 lost hoffenheim

DortmundvFCBayern_AnalysisAnalysis.png

HannovervFCBayern_AnalysisAnalysis.png

HoffenheimvFCBayern_AnalysisAnalysis-2.p

Here are my two formations which I use.

FCBayernMnchen_Overview.png

FCBayernMnchen_Overview-2.png

I am using following Player Instructions:

I am using close less for my two cbs because hummels is very slow and I want to protect the line so boateng has also close less, but I want to play a pressing game. How whould you set up this for a effective pressing?

SK: Distribute to full backs, roll it out

Fb(R): shoot less often

CD’s: close down less

FB (L) : run wide with ball

DM: shoot less often

SV: shoot less often

IF: shoot less often

AM: Get further forward, more risky passes

These are the PPMs:

Neuer: tries to lay way out of trouble, uses long throw to start counter attacks

Kimmich : comes deep to get ball, dictates tempo

Boateng CBR : likes to switch ball to other flank, brings ball out of defence

Hummels: tries to play way out of trouble, brings ball out of defence

Alaba (FBl) : curls ball, play one-twos, knocks ball past opponent

Javi Martinez (DM) : tries play way out of trouble

Vidal (SV) : places shots

Wiilian (Winger) : cut inside from both wings, runs with ball often

Coman (IF) : knocks ball past opponent, cuts inside from both wings

James (AMC) : curls ball, play one-twos, cut inside from both wing, tires long range passes

Lewandoswki : play with back to goal, comes deep to get ball, play one-twos, likes to lob keeper.

 

Thanks for your feedbacks.

 

 
 
 
 
 
34/5000
 
 

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57 minutes ago, vandamme22 said:

So after a few changes the results were constant. But the necessary away stability is still not given. I'm still behind in the championship and I'am afraid to be without a title again. Please can you rate my two formations. I had never problem in a fm serie with bayern to win the league - never! 

I can beat real madrid easily @home and after three days I'cant win away against hannover who plays ten men almost 60 Minutes. I can't even describe whats going wrong..... I will stop playing and wait for your advices. thx!

One common thing I see in both tactics is a focus on getting players making runs often and moving players wide, IMO too many.  Against teams who attack you there will be space for those runners but against teams who don't your making it easy for them to defend as your players run into a crowded area rather than drawing defenders out to them first.

4231:  Why add Get Forward to your AM-S?  You already have a CF-A, W-A and VOL-A?  Why add another player trying to make runs behind often instead of sitting in the hole a bit more?  I'd drop the PI's and make the VOL a support duty, let them work around the box and leave the more often runs to the forward and winger.

433:  Again here i'd look to tone down the MEZ-A.  With the DM-D and DLP-S forming a double pivot i'd prefer to have that 3rd midfielder more central and creating for a CF-A and the W-A, maybe as a simple CM-S or BBM-S. 

Plus I think these changes will put the players in positions to do the things they're better at, gets the creators+ball winners in deeper positions and leaves to goal scoring positions for the better finishers.  For example rather than Vidal trying to get forward and past the forwards he's deeper and able to link or in a better position to defend, his legs are probably going so even if he wants to cover a lot of grass he won't do it quickly.

57 minutes ago, vandamme22 said:

I am using close less for my two cbs because hummels is very slow and I want to protect the line so boateng has also close less, but I want to play a pressing game. How whould you set up this for a effective pressing?

Adding close down less to your CB's doesn't change the fact your team is pushing high so those CBs need to be able to chase balls over the top.  If your pushing high and have a slow CB, it can be exploited, just ask Wenger when he tried it with Mertesacker.  If you want to play like that then you need players who are good at playing like that.  One thing you could do to help them is have Neuer sweep up aggressively.

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@summatsupeer and D_LO: first of all thx a lot for taking time and response to my questions.

So after my last away draw I ve lost the championship again and lost my champions league semi-final after a bad away performance!!!

Sorry but this years me is broken for me!!! Never had that experience in this dimension in a fm version.

You've seen my formations and distribution of the roles and duties and it was not far way from well balanced. I dont understand how can I not win the championship with bayern???

To sum up:

When I watch the games in advanced highlight mode following things are repeated chiefly in almost every away game:

  • my team is losing the ball when I build up play - there is no pression form the home team - nothing!!! Bad passes. Minimum 10 from 15 highlights plays the same way.
  • my players cause penalties with some stupid fouls
  • Passes to my GK from my defenders or dm are too short, so that the striker from the opponent can pick up the ball and have a one one situation with my gk

Despite this the positions (players) don't really perform:

Worst of all is James Rodriugez as Attacking MC support.

ArturoVidal_ReportsForm.png

JamesRodrguez_ReportsForm.png

JaviMartnez_ReportsForm.png

I played the last games with the changes you proposed.

Here are the away match stats against real and psg:

Changed only: mentality to counter, dropped pressing off

RealMadridvFCBayern_AnalysisAnalysis.png

RealMadridvFCBayern_AnalysisAnalysis-2.p

PSGvFCBayern_AnalysisAnalysis.png

PSGvFCBayern_AnalysisAnalysis-2.png

My last draw in the championship which costs me the championship:

MainzvFCBayern_AnalysisAnalysis.png

MainzvFCBayern_AnalysisAnalysis-2.png

I would appreciate if you can review my match stats and formation again. Maybe there is a basic problem with my 4-2-3-1 set-up

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The thing that would help most is images of the players on the field during different phases of play.  Then it comes down to two things, firstly are the players in the areas you want them to be and doing what you want them to.  Secondly are they able to do it well, so in right area but not finding space because poor off the ball or poor passes or doesn't see/select the option you'd like them to take.  This is where it's important to decide what is tactic issues and what is personnel issues, whilst you can try and position and give them different instructions there attributes don't change, they're still the same player (excluding long term development).

There's three things i'm looking at in the tactics+players:

  1. Coman as IF-S .  Off the top of my head this guy is a speedster, he isn't really going to break open defences with his vision+passing or scare opponents with his long shooting.  He will threaten with his dribbling at speed from deep but not sure about the end product.  I like the role+duty for the system (FB overlapping with attacking forward) but I don't like the player used.
  2. Willian as W-A but in a tactic that has Shorter Passing + Play Out Of Defence.  He's going to be pushed up high trying to run in behind opponents and put a cross in, but the build up play is more patient due to your TIs, how often does he get played in?  With the slower build up play are his crosses going into a packed box as you've given defences time to get back?  Plus who's in the box, Lew' is good in the air I think but Rod might of dropped to link play and might not of got into the box and Coman might be at back post but thats probably it, it doesn't feel like a good chance will come from it.  It feels a bit of a mismatch from the rest of the tactic, i'm not sure if either a role change or just a duty change could help, have him starting deeper as a W-S offering another option for a shorter pass before bringing the ball forward himself.
  3. 433 DM Wide with double pivot has a conservative back 5.  Against parked bus teams I think you might be a bit too conservative with the roles+duties.  DLP-S and DM-D will tend to be behind the ball, the FB-A will get forward which is good with the IF-S coming inside and the FB-S will provide some width later in moves when its safe.  Is this what you see on the pitch?  I'm thinking what if the DM was Vidal, maybe as DM-S with another good all round player (good attacker but not defensively weak) taking over the runner role, maybe a CM-A (rather than MEZ so he stay more central) inside a W-S?  This should give more support further up the middle and get better attackers on the field without making your too weak defensively.  The other option would be to give more freedom to the DR but I suspect you lack presence in the #10 area in this formation, maybe a IWB-S could allow the most attacking CM more freedom to get up with the forward?  Depends on personnel and what you see on the pitch.
Edited by summatsupeer

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Shortly to your points:

1. Yes, coman is a speedster no question. But he plays in real time also as a IF and has the ppm to cut inside form left etc. What role would you give him, If using a overlapping fb attack.

2. I know, winger is not the best option for my playing style. Funny thing is, he is my second best scorrer. But the crossed in ratio is low. Which role would you give him?

3. You wouldnt use a defend role in the midfield?

 

In generall If you look at my two tactics, do you think the distribution of the roles and duties are balanced? If yes, do you think I have the right players for these roles and duties?

What roles whould you use for the AMR and AML for a possession-based-style? 

 

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To play a possession style its not just about the tactic, its the players you use in them.  The more efficient you want players to be with the ball (possession style) the higher there mental+technical attributes need to be. Playing a possession style with players that make poor decisions, don't see defense splitting passes, lose composure, can't pass accurately, can't find space against organized defenses etc will waste possession potentially before you've created a chance.   Pace whilst still helpful is lower on the priority list (acceleration is more helpful) as possession tactics are more about passing to feet, finding space, patience and beating the opponents with skill rather than raw speed.  For that i'd want to build the attack around Lew + Muller finishing chances and Thiago + Rod creating.  Its would take more than changing the AML+AMR to fit a possession style.  Even if roles+duties are "balanced" it doesn't mean they will combine well, it depends how the players play the roles with all the other settings.

One thing I haven't accounted for is your in 2019 so how has Coman developed?  I think until he improves his final product and mental attributes he needs to use his pace by either staying wide (W-S) or trying to run in behind opponents (IF-A / W-A) to give him space to stretch opponents and make the final ball easier, a simple pull back, ball across 6 yard box etc.  At the beginning Coman isn't as good as Willian but are similar players which could make it hard to fit both in, really i'd have Willian starting and Coman rotating in and taking over once he's improved.  Its interesting Willian is your 2nd best scorer despite his goal scoring attributes, i'd be tempted to put him as the starting IF-S and get Muller in at AMR as RMD.  He should get more chances, convert more and use the ball better in general such as fewer crosses.  I'd have the same front 3 in the 4231 and 433 with the midfield more about covering + creating and arriving later into the box and the FBs providing width but not focusing on crossing it in.

I typically use a defend duty but not always, like all roles+duties there should be a reason for using it and fit with the players around him and the tactic overall.  I'd focus on the players and roles up top as mentioned above first and not make too many changes in one go.

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