Classic 4231 for 18.3.3 - 5 Promotions in 7 Seasons

[Mr U Rosler]

Greetings all,

Now the final updates have hit i've restarted a save and wasn't really happy with the tactics i've made this year.

I even revisited 3 striker set ups before deciding I really didn't like they way they played out.

Also took a long look at 3 centre back formations before revisiting the most consistent tactic i'd produced this year, the 4231 DM.

In my original set up the full backs were on attack and whilst they contributed greatly to attacks we were very exposed defensively.

I don't like the support duty here, you still get caught defensively whilst the attacking upside is blunted, so I tried them on defend.

This platform of a defensive back 4 gave me the confidence to push the 2 DM's up to CM's giving us a higher 'block' and closing the gap between midfield and attack.

I then reviewed the team instructions to see if we could squeeze a bit more performance out of the tactic.

Then I was good to go, the key issue is how we performed without the attacking width of the full backs.

Turns out very well, whilst they don't operate on the touchlines the Inside Forwards still cross/pass the width of the penalty area ensuring you have good variety in attack and not everything is played through the middle.

Full back play is interesting, whilst they sit deep covering defensively they have acres of space to receive the ball and pick a pass, in fact, on reviewing stats the Full backs often make the most passes and are key in building attacks.

The attack seems even more potent than 3 striker set ups whilst being much better defensively, my newly promoted Stockport side scored 122 league goals.

Context is everything, I plug and played this for 2 seasons with Stockport gaining back to back promotions. I used the original squad, no signings made, I introduced some youth players as i'm doing an academy challenge.

So, looks really solid, potent attack whilst still retaining defensive solidity.

 

Media Prediction 19th

 

 

 

TACTIC

 

Classic 4231.fmf

[igorlc10]

what about training and OIs?

[Mr U Rosler]

No oi's

Training

 

Pre-season 

Fitness/match tactics

 

Then

balanced/teamwork

[igorlc10]

testing with Chelsea, having decent results home, but dominating away and having a lot of draws and losts, a lot of long shots, i'll test more games.

[sparkysrovers]

Interesting tactic and good write up, very interested on trying this with my side. 

For Set-pieces, do you pick players on their ability or do you for instance have just a certain position (dc, dr, dl etc) taking the corners/free kicks?

[sparkysrovers]

Swapped to this tactic on Feb 9th in my current season, P11 W3 D1 L7 (the last 5 matches I've lost in a row, mainly to stupid reckless goals) - It's possible I need to strengthen my squad.

I was playing with your other tactic for the first part of the season P27 W10 D4 L13 - not great but for my first season in the premier league not bad either, been mid-table for the whole season given our preseason odds of coming 19th.

With both tactics even though we're close to the top of goals for, we are also close to the top for goals against, again this is probably down to my players

[Cuper]

On 28. 03. 2018. at 20:36, Mr U Rosler said:

No oi's

Training

 

Pre-season 

Fitness/match tactics

 

Then

balanced/teamwork

going to try the tactic, i had great success with your other similar tactic, can you post player requirements like you had in the other thread

[Mr U Rosler]

10 hours ago, sparkysrovers said:

Swapped to this tactic on Feb 9th in my current season, P11 W3 D1 L7 (the last 5 matches I've lost in a row, mainly to stupid reckless goals) - It's possible I need to strengthen my squad.

I was playing with your other tactic for the first part of the season P27 W10 D4 L13 - not great but for my first season in the premier league not bad either, been mid-table for the whole season given our preseason odds of coming 19th.

With both tactics even though we're close to the top of goals for, we are also close to the top for goals against, again this is probably down to my players

Hi Sparky,

Yes, playing with an attacking mentality week in week out is pushing it, especially following a promotion, and moving into the Premier League where all teams have top quality players.

Your lower relative reputation will see teams attack you aggressively which can lead to some crazy games.

Following my promotions I had torrid first season in League 2, a full relegation scrap until about 10 games out where I was able to pull away from trouble.

Having ridden that storm i'm now top of League 2 early in the second season and look like i'm going to have a strong run at automatic promotion.

I view it like trying to ascend a difficult peak, when your player quality is not quite there you are climbing against gravity, everything is hard work, you concede a lot of penalties and set piece goals, deflected shots and even when you dominate games you still often lose or draw, you are battling poor morale and accumulate negative momentum, that's what happened to me last season.

Having a full league 2 season under there belts, my players have improved considerably and this season we are on the other side, moving downhill, everything seems easier, morale is high and we are gaining positive momentum.

Our reputation will be a bit higher so teams will be more conservative which allows a more stable run of results.

I tend not to get mid-table finishes, either we're struggling or we're on a roll.

So, player quality will always be key regardless of the tactic.    

[Mr U Rosler]

2 hours ago, Cuper said:

going to try the tactic, i had great success with your other similar tactic, can you post player requirements like you had in the other thread

GK- Aerial Ability, Handling, One on Ones, Reflexes

Nothing unusual here, One on One's are key as the tactic is vulnerable to balls over the top.

 

DC - Marking, Tackling, Jumping Reach, Positioning

Again, standard stuff, just solid defensive stats, high jumping reach is always nice, beneficial in a lot of situations.

  

FB - Marking, Tacking, Passing, Acceleration

These guys are pretty static, converted Centre Backs can be good. Keep an eye passing, a good passer here will make a difference to your attacking return.

 

MC - Work Rate, Passing, Vision, Determination

Very much the engine of the tactic, up and down the pitch all day. Things can get congested centrally so they need the ability to thread the eye of the need and pick a killer pass.

 

IF - Off the ball, Dribbling, Technique, Acceleration

Often starting from a deep position, the ability to travel quickly with the ball at their feet is vital, they can easily make 30 yard darts turning defence into attack. Beyond that they are hybrid creator/goal scorers, they rely on their good movement to give them easy finishes/tap in's so whilst a good finisher is nice its better they are mobile, technical players.   

 

AMC - Off the ball, Technique, Composure, Finishing

Someone in the Shadow Striker mold suits here, they often run beyond your striker and are on the end of attacks although they still have creative responsibilities, you be looking for 10+ goals & assists per season from this player. 

 

DLF - Off the ball, First Touch, Finishing, Composure   

Whilst unsurprisingly this will be your main goal threat, they do operate quite deep early in attacks. A nice first touch see's them able to play with their back to goal acting as a pivot from which to build attacks. Whilst I have a Drogba/Lukaku type striker who does very well, I suspect a more mobile, agile, pacey player would see better results in the long term. You get a lot of one on one's, good finishing and composure should see you convert your fair share of these.  

[sparkysrovers]

On 31/03/2018 at 09:44, Mr U Rosler said:

Hi Sparky,

Yes, playing with an attacking mentality week in week out is pushing it, especially following a promotion, and moving into the Premier League where all teams have top quality players.

Your lower relative reputation will see teams attack you aggressively which can lead to some crazy games.

Following my promotions I had torrid first season in League 2, a full relegation scrap until about 10 games out where I was able to pull away from trouble.

Having ridden that storm i'm now top of League 2 early in the second season and look like i'm going to have a strong run at automatic promotion.

I view it like trying to ascend a difficult peak, when your player quality is not quite there you are climbing against gravity, everything is hard work, you concede a lot of penalties and set piece goals, deflected shots and even when you dominate games you still often lose or draw, you are battling poor morale and accumulate negative momentum, that's what happened to me last season.

Having a full league 2 season under there belts, my players have improved considerably and this season we are on the other side, moving downhill, everything seems easier, morale is high and we are gaining positive momentum.

Our reputation will be a bit higher so teams will be more conservative which allows a more stable run of results.

I tend not to get mid-table finishes, either we're struggling or we're on a roll.

So, player quality will always be key regardless of the tactic.    

Thanks for the feedback (when I ask my coaches opinion on my players it seems 3-3.5 stars is now sky bet championship level and I've a lot of those type players. Hoping for a big budget. Similarily I'm going back to the date I changed over to the newer tactic (currently on a 5-match losing streak) and to see how I finish the season out with your previous offering and then start a fresh new season with the new one.

[WarroOxford]

I was using your previous 4231 tactic and had mixed success with Aberystwyth. Obviously the players were of generally poor quality and it wasn't easy to find players who would fit into the system, but the potential was definitely there.

I can totally relate to the slog of conceding deflected shots and the luck just not going your way. I did see improvement after taking Use Offside Trap off, but mainly because our CBs simply weren't fast enough or smart enough to use it effectively. I had to "dumb down" the tactic slightly and took Pass Into Space off as our players had poor positioning, off the ball and anticipation attributes along with generally poor team cohesion. Despite all the issues I've listed we're still in a mid-table position which isn't bad for a team expected to be in the relegation battle! 

The struggle of finding even mildly acceptable players for this system is real at this level! But I believe in a couple of seasons and some hopefully good youth players coming through the system we'll get players more suited to what we're trying to do. But I'm sticking with it as I understand the basic premise of the tactic and can see where there are weaknesses in my squad and why certain things are happening, or not aside from the lucky goals which just seem to happen at random sometimes. 

[Leeboy]

Big fan of your tactics thank you

 

Regards

[Mr U Rosler]

After a couple of mediocre seasons adjusting to League 2 we've just crushed the division.

That's 3 promotions in 5 seasons just plug and playing the tactic. No signings, just using academy players.

Lots of goals but joint best defence is pleasing.

 

[sparkysrovers]

Nice one Rosler!

[sparkysrovers]

Managed to play 3 games last night of my second season. Drew 1-1 with recently promoted Villa in my first game (away), and then shock of the season, beat the all conquering Manchester United from last season 2-1 at home, even though they had us overrun, and all of their shots were going wide or straight to my keeper. Played Fleetwood away in the league cup and beat them 5-1. Hoping our season continues to be as good as these games.

[Mr U Rosler]

Nice one sparky,

I've made an unbeaten start to my League 1 campaign, 8 wins, 3 draws to sit 5 points clear at the top.

My Academy at Stockport is now rivaling Barcelona's mind, so its not all tactics 😁

[sparkysrovers]

Did you just get your academy and youth facilities to the highest level? And your youth recruitment?

[Mr U Rosler]

45 minutes ago, sparkysrovers said:

Did you just get your academy and youth facilities to the highest level? And your youth recruitment?

Yes, I aim for 1 upgrade to both Youth Recruitment and Junior Coaching per year until they're maxed out.

Also 1 training facility upgrade per season if we can afford it.

Then slowly get youth level improved to level 1, this takes longer, i'm currently level 3.

Get on top of it and there's no real reason why you would sign external players, you end up playing some 15 year olds but the talented one's develop very quickly.

I've lost 8 players so far to bigger clubs but I still have a competitive team and more youngsters to bring in if I need them.

There are Stockport Academy players in the England under 21's and we've produced 2 Nigerian full internationals.

As a caveat, Stockport have big gates, so money is not really an issue (wages will be very low) + the North West is a hotbed of football so their is a big talent pool in the area although the Manchester Clubs get the cream.

I'm trying to win the Premier League exclusively using my own academy players, if I can do it with Stockport i'll try again with an absolute minnow in a remote backwater somewhere, that would be even more difficult.

You get to see your new Youth Players around the end of February each year, its a big, exciting day for me to see what I get, I've been after a technical Striker for a while but i'm still waiting.       

[sparkysrovers]

Yep its an interesting challenge to have a team full of your academy players winning the league. 

Have you ever tried poaching players that arrive on that day at other clubs? 

If you want a challenge - takeover a LOI club and win the CL with them. Did it once before in FM12 (I'm beginning to sound like myself irl when I go on about Rovers winning the PL in 95)

[Mr U Rosler]

12 minutes ago, sparkysrovers said:

Yep its an interesting challenge to have a team full of your academy players winning the league. 

Have you ever tried poaching players that arrive on that day at other clubs? 

If you want a challenge - takeover a LOI club and win the CL with them. Did it once before in FM12 (I'm beginning to sound like myself irl when I go on about Rovers winning the PL in 95)

Nope. not tried poaching players.

What do you mean by an LOI Club?

[sparkysrovers]

League of Ireland. At the time I brought Limerick from the first division to the premier league and eventually winning the champions league. You can easily become the best team in Ireland due to the ridiculous amount of money handed out for qualifying for the group stages in the CL.

[Mr U Rosler]

4 minutes ago, sparkysrovers said:

League of Ireland. At the time I brought Limerick from the first division to the premier league and eventually winning the champions league. You can easily become the best team in Ireland due to the ridiculous amount of money handed out for qualifying for the group stages in the CL.

I had considered a similar challenge, going for the Champions League with an academy team from Iceland or some where in Scandinavia.... lots of challenges out there, not enough time! 

[sparkysrovers]

Yeah I hear you about the time

[Mr U Rosler]

Another back to back promotion, straight out of League 1.

4 Promotions in 6 seasons with no players signed {Academy Players only)

Expecting a tough time in the Championship.

[sparkysrovers]

You will certainly find it tougher without that extra bit of experience

[Fribbe]

On 2018-04-08 at 19:46, Mr U Rosler said:

Another back to back promotion, straight out of League 1.

4 Promotions in 6 seasons with no players signed {Academy Players only)

Expecting a tough time in the Championship.

Interested in also doing an academy save, it's offtopic but could you give some tips on youth development?

[Mr U Rosler]

19 hours ago, Fribbe said:

Interested in also doing an academy save, it's offtopic but could you give some tips on youth development?

Hi Fribbe, 

Basically I aim for 1 upgrade per season on both Junior Coaching & Youth Recruitment, via a board request.

You need to watch the finances though as each upgrade has a monthly cost.

Improve youth level, but no rush, as you move up the leagues, aim for level 2 by Championship, level 1 premier league.

Ensure ALL staff have high determination. Your HOYD should have a strong personality, resolute, professional etc.

No player in any of my teams has less than 10 determination.

You can tutor talented youngsters with low determination, but don't take on too many of them.

Don't be afraid to play youngsters, age has no bearing on the ME. A 15 year old would perform exactly the same as a 27 year old with identical stats.

Teams will go hard after your top players, you can keep negotiating bids to silly amounts and more often than not hold onto your players.

I.e. Club bids £100,00, you change it to £5 million, lock the negotiation (bottom left), then negotiate offer (bottom right). The club will withdraw bid.

Might have to do this 30 times per window which is tedious. 

If you just flat out reject the bid the player might get upset.

If bids reach a certain level your Chairman might jump in and accept it and there is nothing you can do.

Other than that, be very careful not to cock up the end of season team talk where you set expectations for next season, get this wrong and you're likely in for a horror start to next season.

[sparkysrovers]

1 hour ago, Mr U Rosler said:

Don't be afraid to play youngsters, age has no bearing on the ME. A 15 year old would perform exactly the same as a 27 year old with identical stats.

Does it apply to kids with a high potential ability? I find if you play them, it increases their current ability.

[Mr U Rosler]

1 hour ago, sparkysrovers said:

Does it apply to kids with a high potential ability? I find if you play them, it increases their current ability.

What I mean is, if they're good enough their old enough, age itself has no bearing on how players perform in game.

First team experience is the surefire fastest way for youngsters to develop, especially if youth level, youth facilities are still low.  

[Fribbe]

8 hours ago, Mr U Rosler said:

Improve youth level, but no rush, as you move up the leagues, aim for level 2 by Championship, level 1 premier league.

Ensure ALL staff have high determination. Your HOYD should have a strong personality, resolute, professional etc.

How do you improve youth level? And would you pick a coach with worse coaching stats but a high determination?

[Mr U Rosler]

Youth level is a board request, it might require also improving your youth training facilities if you haven't already improved them.

I go for high determination first, in fact, i'll put 12-15 in the required attribute for determination before I even search for coaches so I don't see those with low determination.

Get this right across the club and you start to get messages about the squads character having a positive effect on players.

Also, i've seen determination attribute increases from players not being tutored.

Get it wrong and you can start to see determination lowering across the squad.

[sparkysrovers]

Feck I'll have to wield the axe hammer so  

Should I turn off the offside trap like a previous poster suggested, I'm third in the table for goals conceded. (something like 42 and its only half way point)

[Mr U Rosler]

I leave offside trap on due to the high defensive line. Hard to tell if its doing any good, probably won't make much difference either way.

The one time I had the best defence was during my dominant League 2 campaign where my team was a relatively strong one relative to the league, so better defenders/team will always equal better defence.

The basis of the tactic is you should score enough to stay out of trouble even with a weak team.

[sparkysrovers]

Oh I'm definitely staying out of trouble. Need to improve the status of the club though as not attracting the better players

[Fribbe]

Do you change mentality at all depending on the opposition or match situation?

 

Also, does this tactic fulfil any philosophies?

[Mr U Rosler]

I leave it on attacking 100% of the time.

 

Not sure about philosophies I only ever look at the one relating to youth development, if there is an attacking football one it would meet that.

[Mr U Rosler]

Well, remarkably we got up again. 3 promotions in a row, 5 in 7 seasons without signing a player.

Worried we've gone up to soon, lost out first 2 games in the Premier League albeit to Man City & Liverpool.

As this is turning partly into an academy thread, time to look at some of the Bad Boys that got me here.

 

Ali arrived in my first intake, I used him for a couple of seasons in the AMC position before playing him as a striker. Full Nigerian International, a club icon at Stockport and the all time leading scorer with 156 goals in 253 appearances all at the grand old age of 22.

A powerful Striker whose probably out of his depth in the Premier League now lacking the technical ability and finishing of a top level Striker. Will probably still be first choice Striker for the next couple of years. 

 

Steve came through a couple of years after Ali but has surpassed him now winning the Championship player of the season last year.

Another powerhouse of a player combining physicality with strong mentals and technique making him suitable for top level football.

First name on the team sheet in the AMC position.

 

Brian is an even newer addition only cementing his place in the team mid way through last season.

The best finisher at the club, he is also a powerful player, I use him in the AML position at the moment but if I can improve his technique I see him as the natural successor to Ali.

 

At the back we have Pat, comfortable at either Full Back position he is quicker than most attackers and an expert tackler.

He has strong Mental attributes he main weakness being in the air, Premier league is pushing it but he'll do a job until someone better arrives. 

 

 

All of these have come out of the Stockport Academy.

[Fribbe]

As I'm playing in Sweden, would you recommend switching to something like counter when I get into continental competitions?

[Mr U Rosler]

4 minutes ago, Fribbe said:

As I'm playing in Sweden, would you recommend switching to something like counter when I get into continental competitions?

To be honest, no.

I'd say just go for it and see what happens.

[Fribbe]

1 minute ago, Mr U Rosler said:

To be honest, no.

I'd say just go for it and see what happens.

Alright, thank you for the answers. Interesting to see your latest Stockport update, best of luck in the PL mate. 

[TioPatinhax]

Decided to give this tactic a go mid season with Boavista, but so far really struggling. Should I stick with it and eventually results will improve?

[Mr U Rosler]

6 minutes ago, TioPatinhax said:

Decided to give this tactic a go mid season with Boavista, but so far really struggling. Should I stick with it and eventually results will improve?

I'd wait for a couple of wins, it would usually kick on from there 👍

[matty8787]

Are we able to change roles to suit players or would that ruin the way it works?

[Mr U Rosler]

27 minutes ago, matty8787 said:

Are we able to change roles to suit players or would that ruin the way it works?

You can do what you like of course, i'd be careful changing duties though.

[matty8787]

14 minutes ago, Mr U Rosler said:

You can do what you like of course, i'd be careful changing duties though.

Ok thanks, my strikers are more suited to the complete forward role is all.

[TioPatinhax]

around 8 matches,  7 losses so far. Changed it mid season, is there something I might be doing fundamentally wrong?

[Mr U Rosler]

Dunno, maybe it only works for me.

[TioPatinhax]

15 hours ago, Mr U Rosler said:

Dunno, maybe it only works for me.

Do have to point out,  just played a bit and last 3 games albeit vs lower table clubs, I got 3 wins.  

[TioPatinhax]

22 hours ago, Mr U Rosler said:

You can do what you like of course, i'd be careful changing duties though.

For example in the case of the striker, you use a DLF correct? What if I have a really good Target Man, would it ruin the whole strategey employing that role?

[Fribbe]

14 minutes ago, TioPatinhax said:

For example in the case of the striker, you use a DLF correct? What if I have a really good Target Man, would it ruin the whole strategey employing that role?

You don't have to change his roll into a TM just because thats where he's green. Even if he's not fully green at DLF, if he has the stats to play there he will perform.