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Long shots now even worse! Savic Crazy throw in long shot!!


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After 15 years of playing CM/FM I am almost ready to quit over the state of the ME, I thought FM17s ME was very good and very watchable but this years ME and AI is a massive step back, see below for one example of the many, many, many unrealistically bad long shots many players are getting every game, I am not saying these types of miss hits never happen in real football but they dont happen anywhere near the frequency and they dont miss by so far on such a regular a basis! :seagull:

You can also see in the first screenshot that Savic has plenty of passing options and players in space so there so reason to hit a wild long shot.

Savic shot.jpg

Savic Throw In Shot 3.jpg

Savic Throw In Shot 2.jpg

 

Edited by dcaine100
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Shooting accuracy is dodgy as hell in the FM18 ME and I suspect SI were unable to address it significantly in any of the patches because it would lead to major imbalances and high scorelines.

I recently had 3 missed penalties and 5 woodworks in one match, and I've only seen around 4 DFK goals (both for and against me combined) in a 5-season career.  There have been several matches where it seemed like I could have scored 10-15 goals if shooting accuracy were improved.

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hace 2 horas, dcaine100 dijo:

After 15 years of playing CM/FM I am almost ready to quit over the state of the ME, I thought FM17s ME was very good and very watchable but this years ME and AI is a massive step back, see below for one example of the many, many, many unrealistically bad long shots many players are getting every game, I am not saying these types of miss hits never happen in real football but they dont happen anywhere near the frequency and they dont miss by so far on such regular a basis!

You can also see in the first screenshot that Savic has plenty of passing options and playing in space so there so reason to hit a wild  long shot.

Savic shot.jpg

Savic Throw In Shot 3.jpg

Savic Throw In Shot 2.jpg

 

SI say that is correct. It seems to me that they don´t see much football!!!!!!!!!!!!!!. This is catastrophic!!!!!!!!!

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1 minute ago, penza said:

It’s your tactics and your graphics... you told your player to shoot like this, can’t believe you didn’t notice the hidden instruction.. come on!!!

oh the "try sideways shots" option cant believe i missed that! :lol:

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32 minuti fa, cbcruz ha scritto:

It doesn't look like a shot, but rather a pass to a teammate who was supposed to be there. Well at least this is how I'd like to see it. Honestly in a real match there are more many mistakes on passes and shots than we see on FM. But still this is not an excuse to justify the horrible long shot reported by the OP.

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2 hours ago, cbcruz said:

I'd say this was unrealistic, but Pogba's first half against Palace wasn't far off this :D

-

Savic's shot is from exactly the position a player might hit a bad long shot from if they like to shoot, but a bad long shot whilst in control of the ball is 6 yards wide, not hitting a spot 80 degrees from where the goal is!

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25 minutes ago, enigmatic said:

I'd say this was unrealistic, but Pogba's first half against Palace wasn't far off this :D

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Savic's shot is from exactly the position a player might hit a bad long shot from if they like to shoot, but a bad long shot whilst in control of the ball is 6 yards wide, not hitting a spot 80 degrees from where the goal is!

Exactly especially when his shooting foot is facing the opposite way to where the ball went.

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11 minutes ago, russell9 said:

Obviously wrong thread. 100% sure it's your tactic you should post this to Tactics, Training & Strategies Discussion :brock:

How does my tactic decide how badly a shot is miss hit?

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16 minutes ago, dcaine100 said:

How does my tactic decide how badly a shot is miss hit?

It can't decide it, but it can help lessen the amounts of long shots. The fewer long shots you have the fewer situations like this you experience. Too many long shots is, after all, a symptom of an issue with a tactic.

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37 minutes ago, dcaine100 said:

How does my tactic decide how badly a shot is miss hit?

It's just sarcasm mate. All of us accept this is a blatant bug except some who you can see their standard answer "IT'S YOUR TACTIC".

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vor 28 Minuten schrieb russell9:

It's just sarcasm mate. All of us accept this is a blatant bug except some who you can see their standard answer "IT'S YOUR TACTIC".

It's not a bug - it's your tactic!

Lower the tempo of your tactic and you won't see many long shots anymore. Players tend to shoot if they're instructed to play (too) fast.

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7 minutes ago, YasoKuul said:

It's not a bug - it's your tactic!

Lower the tempo of your tactic and you won't see many long shots anymore. Players tend to shoot if they're instructed to play (too) fast.

Maybe you didn't understand, nobody is complaining about the number of long shots, only about world class players shooting at the corner flag almost every single game, it's the accuracy, not the amount, some people don't seem to, (or dont want to), understand that every great player can have a terrible day and miss some open goal chances, they simply don't do it in almost every game...

Edited by Nuno Dias
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vor 6 Minuten schrieb Nuno Dias:

Maybe you didn't understand, nobody is complaining about the number of long shots, only about world class players shooting at the corner flag almost every single game, it's the accuracy, not the amount, some people don't seem to, (or dont want to), understand that every great player can have a terrible day and miss some open goal chances, they simply don't do it in almost every game...

Lower tempo allows the players more time on the ball and therefore the shoot selection and also the accurancy is much better - it doesn't matter if it's a lower league player or a world class player.

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1 hour ago, russell9 said:

It's just sarcasm mate. All of us accept this is a blatant bug except some who you can see their standard answer "IT'S YOUR TACTIC".

You could just name me instead of a passive-aggressive "some". But yes, there are issues with longshots going too far wide, however, the solution to this isn't that you will suddenly start scoring from those shots, but they will still miss the net, just not by as much as now. So in the end the match results will be the same and you will find something else to whine about. Or would you be perfectly happy if the score was the same, but the long shots were only a few yards wide? I doubt it.

If you actually tried to view the long shots as a symptom of a poor tactical implementation and tried to use more reasonable tactics then you would very rarely see these things. Right now, it's very obvious when players have few options because the long shots go as wide as the do. Getting the to get close will actually make it HARDER to see if it's a tactical mistake or rather a run-of-the-mill long shot.

 

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1 hour ago, russell9 said:

It's just sarcasm mate. All of us accept this is a blatant bug except some who you can see their standard answer "IT'S YOUR TACTIC".

 

55 minutes ago, Nuno Dias said:

Maybe you didn't understand, nobody is complaining about the number of long shots, only about world class players shooting at the corner flag almost every single game, it's the accuracy, not the amount, some people don't seem to, (or dont want to), understand that every great player can have a terrible day and miss some open goal chances, they simply don't do it in almost every game...

There's a fundamental misunderstanding here.  Nobody is denying there seems to be an issue with the amount of long shots that go nearer the corner flag than the goal.  Something has apparently changed between FM17 and FM18 that makes this issue more noticeable and I'd like to see SI take some steps to redress this.

When you see people talk about tactical options to help relieve the issue, they're not saying tactical choices will reduce players mis-kicking the ball.  They're saying that if your tactic is set up in such a way that you see a high proportion of long shots vs close range shots, expect to see more long shots going astray.  But if your tactical system is set up so that you see more close range shots then expect to see less long shots overall, and therefore less long shots hitting the corner flag.

Tactical options are not about players kicking the ball with a wild slice, they're about reducing the overall number of long shots.  If you do that then you might expect to see less corner flag shots as well.

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1 hour ago, YasoKuul said:

It's not a bug - it's your tactic!

Lower the tempo of your tactic and you won't see many long shots anymore. Players tend to shoot if they're instructed to play (too) fast.

This isn't true. I've had a number of low tempo + work ball into the box tactics and all of them have had big problems with long shots (despite having better options available)

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12 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

If this thread is going to devolve into passive aggressive digs and jokes, rather than constructive discussion, it's going to get closed. Keep it clean and on point. Thanks 

Fair enough, I'll hold my tongue from now on, my point was what @herne79 wrote and I'll leave it there.

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Whilst it's true that tactics (and player selection) can reduce the number of long shots taken, it's also a perfectly legitimate real life tactic for a side full of long shot specialists to try to break down a massed defence by bombarding the goal with long shots. (IRL you'd also ask your players to have a pop to try to tempt their anchor men to close down more and create a bit of space for your forwards to operate in, but I'm not sure FM is capable of that subtlety)

Works less well if they're bombarding the corner flag :)

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1 hour ago, herne79 said:

There's a fundamental misunderstanding here.  Nobody is denying there seems to be an issue with the amount of long shots that go nearer the corner flag than the goal.  Something has apparently changed between FM17 and FM18 that makes this issue more noticeable and I'd like to see SI take some steps to redress this.

When you see people talk about tactical options to help relieve the issue, they're not saying tactical choices will reduce players mis-kicking the ball.  They're saying that if your tactic is set up in such a way that you see a high proportion of long shots vs close range shots, expect to see more long shots going astray.  But if your tactical system is set up so that you see more close range shots then expect to see less long shots overall, and therefore less long shots hitting the corner flag.

Tactical options are not about players kicking the ball with a wild slice, they're about reducing the overall number of long shots.  If you do that then you might expect to see less corner flag shots as well.

Perfect answer as far as i'm concerned, very well said, thanks for that :brock:

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29 minuti fa, enigmatic ha scritto:

Whilst it's true that tactics (and player selection) can reduce the number of long shots taken, it's also a perfectly legitimate real life tactic for a side full of long shot specialists .

Works less well if they're bombarding the corner flag :)

2

in reality, this is very frequently used when the match is played in wet conditions.

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30 minutes ago, MBarbaric said:

in reality, this is very frequently used when the match is played in wet conditions.

It's arguably that one scenario where the "game of chance" turns into a "game of chance with possibly benefit". Bombarding the opposition goal as such is usually just a last resort, but it depends a bit on context. If on older FM releases you had a bunch of truly world class players, you could (almost) average a wonder goal per match if you insisted on it. In particular if you went into the editor and boosted every player accordingly -- which I'm so surprised nobody that passionate about the topic seems to have done at all. But then this is GD.

As an ado to Herne's, the less something like "work ball into box" is being perceived in the future as a de-facto solution to long shots generally, the better. Maybe they should add a "work ball nicely into opposition goal" button to make that a little more obvious that things not better work that way. :D Any set-up that traditionally has a gigantic amount of long shots does so because of bad movement patterns / a particular opposition approach denying the space. IT seems there needs to be even more spoon feeding introcued on the tactics screen where the space on the pitch is against particular formations. Clicking buttons in that scenario is like trying to MacGuffinGuyver an amputated leg with superglue.

Edited by Svenc
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in lower levels of football it is also used when the opposition has a small-ish goalkeeper. the defence is usually not so organized and player on the ball has more time on the ball. all this is normally not applicable to any level of professional football though. but FM represents the non-pro levels as well.

anyway, i think this will be gone by the next release so a bit of patience is needed.

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Yep this and close shoots are ruining the experience for me. Media is always asking why my players are that good in close scoring. Im back in FM17 there are more variety of scoring, the problem its capped at 60fps and i have stuttering comparing with the 144fps in FM18.

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6 minutes ago, Altair said:

Yep this and close shoots are ruining the experience for me. Media is always asking why my players are that good in close scoring. Im back in FM17 there are more variety of scoring, the problem its capped at 60fps and i have stuttering comparing with the 144fps in FM18.

Close shots are driving me insane so many tap ins missed from players like Asensio (18 fin 19 long shots)....getting misses of the season every game! 

Definitely felt like there was a much wider varity of goals in FM17 and far less long shots (im using the exact same tactic in both FM17 and 18)

Edited by dcaine100
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hace 3 minutos, dcaine100 dijo:

Close shots are driving me insane so many tap ins missed from players like Asensio (18 fin 19 long shots)....getting misses of the season every game! 

Full backs are terrible no matter what the tactics. Its always the same center to the small area and goal.

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2 hours ago, dcaine100 said:

Definitely felt like there was a much wider varity of goals in FM17 and far less long shots (im using the exact same tactic in both FM17 and 18)

100% this. I too am using the same control / fluid 4-1-2-2-1 tactic in both releases; using the same club DNA and players of a similar caliber. On FM17, attacking patterns and the types of goals scored as a result are more varied, dynamic and unpredictable. The ME is full of surprises and keeps you coming back for more.

FM18 on the other hand is cross between a slip 'n' slide and a pinball machine. Minimal diversity in play and woeful player intelligence. Predictable breakdowns in transitions, followed by lumped balls into channels that defenders don't react to, cross and tap in from an acute angle. I feel like 'Seen one match, seen them all'. This is where FM18 has failed. 

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OP you say he has lots of passing options... depending on your tactics (mentality/tempo & player role/mentality in particular) I actually think taking a shot is a pretty reasonable option in that instance.

However, the tendency for the shots to be so bad, from players with good stats is a pretty unbearable bug in FM18. Seems particularly bad that players run in a diagonal and just shoot straight so it goes to the corner flag instead of trying to curl the ball or angle their run when they shoot. I've also had strikers making a horizontal run and shot straight out for a throw-in (parallel to the goal)

The number of long shots too high as well.

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58 minutes ago, rdbayly said:

100% this. I too am using the same control / fluid 4-1-2-2-1 tactic in both releases; using the same club DNA and players of a similar caliber. On FM17, attacking patterns and the types of goals scored as a result are more varied, dynamic and unpredictable. The ME is full of surprises and keeps you coming back for more.

FM18 on the other hand is cross between a slip 'n' slide and a pinball machine. Minimal diversity in play and woeful player intelligence. Predictable breakdowns in transitions, followed by lumped balls into channels that defenders don't react to, cross and tap in from an acute angle. I feel like 'Seen one match, seen them all'. This is where FM18 has failed. 

Completely agree with every word you said I dont understand why they took a ME that was good and instead of improving what they had they totally overhauled it and left it in a mess just as they have with the UI this year every change has been for the worse, more clicks, poor use of screen space e.t.c.

Edited by dcaine100
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hace 1 hora, rdbayly dijo:

100% this. I too am using the same control / fluid 4-1-2-2-1 tactic in both releases; using the same club DNA and players of a similar caliber. On FM17, attacking patterns and the types of goals scored as a result are more varied, dynamic and unpredictable. The ME is full of surprises and keeps you coming back for more.

FM18 on the other hand is cross between a slip 'n' slide and a pinball machine. Minimal diversity in play and woeful player intelligence. Predictable breakdowns in transitions, followed by lumped balls into channels that defenders don't react to, cross and tap in from an acute angle. I feel like 'Seen one match, seen them all'. This is where FM18 has failed. 

 

hace 14 minutos, dcaine100 dijo:

Completely agree with every word you said I dont understand why they took a ME that was good and instead of improving what they had they totally overhauled it and left it in a mess just as they have with the UI this year every change has been for the worse, more clicks, poor use of screen space e.t.c.

I just would really happy with FM17 ME and the graphics/144 fps of FM18. Well at least i can dream about it lol.

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48 minutes ago, westy8chimp said:

OP you say he has lots of passing options... depending on your tactics (mentality/tempo & player role/mentality in particular) I actually think taking a shot is a pretty reasonable option in that instance.

assuming the tactic isn't hit and hope, he has at least 3 reasonable if not risky options

1 - the open player on the left of the screen

2 - a riskier through ball to the player at the top

3 - the open player next to him

there are also other players that if he holds the ball can move to recieve a pass easily. and since there are 8 defenders in the area, a pass back to keep possession should be easily done (if FM could actually replicate something as simple as this)

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I just have my own form of analyses, where I ditch ccc, and analyse each game, viewing each chance created and assessing based on location, angle and pressure whether that constitutes a good chance on goal. I am loving the fact that every third chance is a good chance, and that there are some tactics we faced that produce more long shots than normal. I just need to come up with a plan to score more goals against them.5ab2a42199300_ScreenShot2018-03-22at2_27_18AM.thumb.png.0cf0ac3cb68fe80565394b4a9dbedd32.png

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2 hours ago, Rashidi said:

I just have my own form of analyses, where I ditch ccc, and analyse each game, viewing each chance created and assessing based on location, angle and pressure whether that constitutes a good chance on goal. I am loving the fact that every third chance is a good chance, and that there are some tactics we faced that produce more long shots than normal. I just need to come up with a plan to score more goals against them.5ab2a42199300_ScreenShot2018-03-22at2_27_18AM.thumb.png.0cf0ac3cb68fe80565394b4a9dbedd32.png


What's your method Rash, out of interest? The game needs to have better data/analytics itself overall. Even if it were just hidden and non-instrusive and optional, for anybody who feels "overwhelmed": Pretty much any kind of feedback you get here is purely based on volumes -- and that is taken as gospel. :D Like, "even the match report agreed with me that we were in fully control of the match and should have scored a gazillion". I think it's pretty weird that you always have to do your own Maths in general, even for the simpler things, like collecting a few simple data purely from your own matches back to back in sequence, as you have done it.

It doesn't surprise me that stuff on FM17 can look very different in general -- the centre of the pitch was pretty much "open season" (the wide midfielder defensive positioning "issue" on there, plus the half spaces issue), which also severely affects how hard it is to keep opposition from breaching the box. If the zentral zones are comparably easily overloaded (and they were on FM17), the centre backs are dragged all over the place far easier likewise. Most vulnerable zone on a pitch, both in virtual as well as real football. Naturally FM18 has its own stuff too, but that was a biggie. Created some user frustrations too. Naturally more on the defensive end, mind.

@MBarbaric I think FM's aim/scope is only semi-pro football, at least of some halfway decent standard and up. It would be really funny to have a sim based on fully amateur and pub sports too though! :D Interestingly, there's a German analyst called Roland Loy who argues the "just shoot in wet conditions" approach may be in parts a cliche, as nobody had really done any serious research into it -- how big the benefit of that would effectively be.

Edited by Svenc
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1 ora fa, Svenc ha scritto:

Interestingly, there's a German analyst called Roland Loy who argues the "just shoot in wet conditions" approach may be in parts a cliche, as nobody had really done any serious research into it -- how big the benefit of that would effectively be.

you are right there is no research on long shots in wet conditions. However, ask any goalkeeper if it is easier to stop a dry ball or a wet one. how many coaches find it beneficial to instruct their players to do so is another debate.

back on topic though. 

found a great article on stats bomb that might shed a different light on long shots:

We usually consider long shots as low probability shots. However, we judge that in isolation without thinking about options that player has in that situation like forward pass, pass wide, back pass, a take on and so on.

A long shot results in a goal on 3,9% of attempts. Compared to other options player has, it is actually the best course of action together with central forward pass. All other options lead to a goal in 1,6-2,8% of attempts. 

https://statsbomb.com/2014/02/mythbusting-is-long-range-shooting-a-bad-option/#prettyPhoto

Also, when we think about long shot goals, first thought goes to gerrard , terry... players that blast it into the net. However, we forget how many times a long shot produces a rebound that becomes a relatively easy tap in . A concept that is intentionally exploited in hockey but gets fairly neglected in football (not saying that it has the same probability in both sports but it still merits a thought).

Edited by MBarbaric
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32 minutes ago, MBarbaric said:

We usually consider long shots as low probability shots. However, we judge that in isolation without thinking about options that player has in that situation like forward pass, pass wide, back pass, a take on and so on.

Also a good point. It gets a bit more complicated that for some teams, taking shots as soon as approaching decent goalmouth may be the best option to at all finish the move in an attempt (thus, increasing the chance of scoring). Whilst teams of highest quality can wait for the right moment for something better to open up, as the move is far less likely to break down for them. That's something that isn't considered in this piece likewise. Of course if presented with options, you would want to try the better one... however there may be a point where the lower probability one is a better option. Parts of that have been argued to be in the in-game decision making, btw. F'r instance, if you push all the midfield forward, not only does that compress the space, which is always difficult. If your move is easily intercepted, you are much more likely to face a dangerous break. Thus, the probability of seeing a shot also increases, as it may be the least risky option to take. If the player would play the additional pass, it may be easily intercepted, and then you'd face the break. As we don't have an insight into how things are coded -- well hopefully SI do their research. :D 

Edited by Svenc
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