Defending against a 4-2-3-1

[ajsr1982]

Hi folks. A bit of a general question, this. Though I'll post my tactics for context. Basically, I'm struggling against the 4-2-3-1. To clarify, I mean this:

GK

FB    CD    CD    FB

CM    CM

AMR    AMC    AML

CF

I have a very specific issue, namely that I don't seem able to prevent the AMR/L getting into the channel between my FBs and my CBs. Here's what I'm play with at the moment - a slightly lop-sided flat 4-5-1.

GK

FB    BPD/D    CD/D    FB

W/A    CAR/S    CM/A    CM/D    IW/S

T/A

Standard/Flexible. I've left the duties off the FBs as I change them according to circumstance. I've been using Support duties against the 4-2-3-1, though I've experimented with others, as well as various PIs. The reason I'm here is because I can't find that successful strategy. I'm generally doing okay. Mid-table in the Championship with Fleetwood straight after promotion, so I'm not complaining overall. Teams have found a chink in my armour though and I'm struggling recently, so I'm trying to fix things.

In plain English, I know what I want to do. I want to close the gap between the FBs and the CBs so a through ball is difficult/impossible, thereby making the best case scenario for the attacking team that they go on the outside and I hopefully deal with that. I can't see that any buttons I press have the desired effect, however. What I see is my FB behaving oddly. He marks the man, up to a point. This isn't what I want, because it leaves a 50-50 scenario when the ball is played into the space. He's too close to his man.

That's the issue in isolation. I know I have options in a wider context.

I can drop my defence deeper. Fine, and I tried this. Thing is, there's only so deep a defence will go (more or less the 18-yard line) and I still have issues.

I can try to cut things off at source. Much of the supply comes from the CF dropping deep and playing through balls. Obviously I don't have a DM to deal with that. But I'm trying to work within my original formation in the first instance.

I can try to keep the ball more. I find it really hard to get good possession against this formation. I'm often below 40%, and I'm not sure how to fix it. Suggestions welcome. I don't have the numbers/quality to go through their high block, and I don't have enough up top to go over it.

I can push up. Not experimented with this one too much yet, but I guess the theory goes that if I keep them away from my box, it eradicates the problem. But it brings in other risks.

I can change my system. Trying to avoid that for now, at least drastic changes, but open to that discussion.

Thoughts welcome.

 

[summatsupeer]

I will have to make a few assumptions since I can't see the moves as they happen.  The bit I think is the main issue is the CF getting space dropping deep, likely due to the flat midfield 3 with the CM-A the highest of the 3 plus a CAR defends a bit wider so could be allowing space.  With two FB-S I think the flanks will have decent cover from counter attacks since your Standard+Flexible so i'd look for the midfield cover to be in the center.  I'd put he CM-D in the middle and change the CAR role to maybe a BWM-S/CM-S/DLP-S.  I'm not sure if you should put the CM-A on the left or right, next to the W-A look "unbalanced" but could create space for each other, especially if play builds up through the left before the ball is switched to the right.  If the CM-A was on the left i'm not sure if he would combine with the IW-S or get in the way.

The other option whilst you like your formation is to drop the holding CM's (CM-D + CAR) to DM-D/S + VOL-S type combo so they sit deeper and central.  This is a step further on the restructuring roles like the previous suggestion.

Your possession issues could be any number of reasons, do teams play keep ball and you don't pressure them?   Do you waste possession?  Any TIs?

[BadanieLuck]

As @summatsupeer said, because you don't use any players in the DM position, there is more space between your midfield and defence lines. This gives the striker room to drop into (especially with the CM/A in front of him) and when he receives the ball, one of your CD will (have to) close him down, creating the gap you talk about for forwards to run into. With an aggressive DM in the center of your midfield 5, the striker would have a lot less space and time. You could try if swapping the CM/D into the center is enough (should already help), otherwise you probably have to use a DM.

You could also try 5 at the back, as there would be less space between your defenders (even if one is dragged out of position) but this may already be too drastic.

Regarding possession, I wouldn't worry too much about it. You just got promoted and you seem to be getting decent results. I expect your team is below average in comparison to others, so keeping the ball with be a struggle (without drastic tactic changes). But if you really want to, you may need more support and/or creative (players who drift around in space e.g. playmakers) duties. Watch the games or check the analysis to see when and where possession is wasted. Is it happening during transitions? Switch to a more fluid shape to get more players involved. Is it happening in the opposition half? Reassess your roles and duties in the final third.

[herne79]

Also check how much Aggression each of your central defenders have.  If a lot, you may find they step up out of line more often at awkward moments leaving gaps behind that an on rushing forward/channel runner could exploit.

[ajsr1982]

1 hour ago, BadanieLuck said:

As @summatsupeer said, because you don't use any players in the DM position, there is more space between your midfield and defence lines. This gives the striker room to drop into (especially with the CM/A in front of him) and when he receives the ball, one of your CD will (have to) close him down, creating the gap you talk about for forwards to run into. With an aggressive DM in the center of your midfield 5, the striker would have a lot less space and time. You could try if swapping the CM/D into the center is enough (should already help), otherwise you probably have to use a DM.

You could also try 5 at the back, as there would be less space between your defenders (even if one is dragged out of position) but this may already be too drastic.

Regarding possession, I wouldn't worry too much about it. You just got promoted and you seem to be getting decent results. I expect your team is below average in comparison to others, so keeping the ball with be a struggle (without drastic tactic changes). But if you really want to, you may need more support and/or creative (players who drift around in space e.g. playmakers) duties. Watch the games or check the analysis to see when and where possession is wasted. Is it happening during transitions? Switch to a more fluid shape to get more players involved. Is it happening in the opposition half? Reassess your roles and duties in the final third.

 

Possession wastage tends to come from deeper players coming under more pressure than usual due to opponents' high block. This results in (aimless) long balls forward towards a relatively isolated lone forward. As you say, I was getting decent results, but that was by working out ways to negate other formations, knowing how aggressive I could be with my full backs, and understanding the best way to build up play and which space to attack. A feature of those results was that my possession was around the 50% mark, and I've noticed it plummet to 35-40% when facing the 4-2-3-1, which is why I mentioned it. I guess one of the issues of playing 4-5-1 is that it doesn't enable me to go back to front too quickly. Against a 4-4-2, I can afford to tick 'Play Out Of Defence' and enjoy the advantage of an extra man in midfield. Then I push my LB up, the W/A pushes on and parts of my midfield shift right to cover gaps/find space. That's the theory anyway, and it works okay.

Having read some of the comments, I'm considering the following, which I don't think is a huge departure from my existing system.

GK/D

FB/S    BPD/D    CD/D    FB/S

BWM/D

CM/S    BBM/S

W/A                               AP/S

AF/A

Here's my thinking:

The BWM puts pressure on forward dropping off and AM to reduce space to pick passes. Also helps to keep CBs in defensive line. Question: Would one cover mentality help here?

More solid central midfield that stays more central and goes head-to-head with opposition midfield two.

Advanced wide outlets to exploit space behind opposition midfield, keep opposition FBs pushed back if possible, and reduce isolation of lone forward. May have to drop the winger to a support duty if he's not helping out. Also need to look out for BBM and AP getting too close, but a football pitch is pretty big and hopefully they can dovetail.

AF to run the channels and exploit space left behind by opposition attacking FBs.

Again, thoughts welcome.

 

 

[BadanieLuck]

vor 18 Stunden schrieb ajsr1982:

Possession wastage tends to come from deeper players coming under more pressure than usual due to opponents' high block. This results in (aimless) long balls forward towards a relatively isolated lone forward. As you say, I was getting decent results, but that was by working out ways to negate other formations, knowing how aggressive I could be with my full backs, and understanding the best way to build up play and which space to attack. A feature of those results was that my possession was around the 50% mark, and I've noticed it plummet to 35-40% when facing the 4-2-3-1, which is why I mentioned it. I guess one of the issues of playing 4-5-1 is that it doesn't enable me to go back to front too quickly. Against a 4-4-2, I can afford to tick 'Play Out Of Defence' and enjoy the advantage of an extra man in midfield. Then I push my LB up, the W/A pushes on and parts of my midfield shift right to cover gaps/find space. That's the theory anyway, and it works okay.

Well a BPD will naturally try risky long range passes, thats part of his role (which I would keep if the opposition plays with a high line). Other than that, are your players getting closed down/pressured or is it due to lack of options? This is why I always use at least one playmaker in my teams, usually a DLP because they drift around in spaces in front of the defence and attract the ball (defenders have to do less build up play) and is more capable of distributing it further. But that's just personal preference, it is doable without playmakers. Without knowing the qualities of your backline It's difficult to say which solution is the best but you could try the following:

1. Raise tempo: This could prevent your players from getting pressured into doing wrong decisions as the opposition has less time to close them down (Could also catch the oppositions defence on the wrong foot with a high line).  Are your players capable of that? They need decent technical and mental skills to pull that of consistently, but probably difficult because you are a promoted side.

2. Give your defenders more options: Change the shape to a more fluid one. This raises creativity in their positioning and more players will help during the build up.

3. Distribute to certain players or focus attack: In many of my saves I like to distribute to my fullbacks. They are usually better on the ball and it opens up passing lanes. Also play around with focussed attacks. Let your team exploit the middle or the flanks and check which way is working better for your team.

 

vor 18 Stunden schrieb ajsr1982:

Having read some of the comments, I'm considering the following, which I don't think is a huge departure from my existing system.

GK/D

FB/S    BPD/D    CD/D    FB/S

BWM/D

CM/S    BBM/S

W/A                               AP/S

AF/A

Could work, but be careful. BWM/D is not a holding player, he closes down much more and will leave his position quite often. A BBM roams around as well so in your core midfield 3 you have 2 players who leave their designated position regularly. The AF is, like his name already mentions, very advanced so he could get isolated. Not saying this formation doesn't work, but keep an eye on that.

[Bluebird123]

Rashidi made a fantastic video on how he sets up against the United 4-2-3-1, since I saw that video it opened my eyes to a lot of the weaknesses the system has and how easy it is to nullify and beat it. Seriously recommend watching it. 

 

Would link the video but not at my PC atm, just search for it on his channel.