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herne79

Tactical Challenges #1: The Poacher

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46 minutes ago, yonko said:

@herne79

I like the variety you write about. But I'm curious why so few assist from the left side compared to the other zones? Is it because the TQ is on the right hand side and attracts the ball there more? The LM is more selfish player? What would happen if your WB-S was instructed to cross more often and to the near post, aiming for the Poacher? 

The TQ at AMCR will have something to do with it.  However it probably has more to do with the variety down the two flanks.  On the left, the WB(S) is instructed to play fewer risky passes and cross less, while the WM(A) is instructed to dribble more, cut inside and also cross less.  On the right, the FB(A) has a default instruction to cross more and the WM(S) has also been told to do this.

21 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

@herne79From your experience does the trequartista in striker position drop back far enough to draw the defenders out and make space for the poacher? I'm hesitating between which role to give Firmino. DLF, False9 or Trequartista? Or maybe even Targetman with PIs for more creative freedom? I want him to have full freedom in order to create space for Salah beside him, sorta like is described in the article above.

"...Firmino is about so much more than simply sticking the ball in the back of the net — even if that is conventionally seen as the primary job of a centre forward. Firmino consistently displays intelligent movement, pulling defenders into zones they don’t want to be, opens up spaces for his teammates to exploit. He also directly created 76 chances last season, bettered only by Lionel Messi (78) and more than double the likes of Cristiano Ronaldo and Robert Lewandowski (both 30).

His off-the-ball numbers last season showed his exceptional defensive contribution in making 41 tackles, which is considerably more than any other forward in Europe and more even than top level Premier League centre backs such as Gary Cahill (40) and Jan Vertonghen (33). His interception and aerial duel stats also mark him out as unique in comparison to any other forward on the continent, all of which is essential to his function in Liverpool’s counter-pressing system."

So I visualize him working really hard dropping very deep almost into midfield or drifting to sides, or move into channels vertically, etc. Basically  being ever-moving, roaming thorn in the side opponent defenses. So also in a way he needs to be a play-maker so most attacks are channeled through him and then to the poacher. Maybe I should set him as Targetman (he has decent jumping) with roam more and move into channels selected

Yes he does, and that movement will also be helped by the player's own Work Rate and PPM (comes deep to get ball).  Not necessary by any means, but can certainly help.  If you've ever read my 4-4-2 thread from FM16 (which this 4-4-2 is based on) I go into it in a lot more detail.  Link is in the "Please Read" thread at the top of the forum.

BTW, a "small" and creative Target Man is an interesting concept.  I used Tevez occasionally in that role with some interesting results, but never really followed up on it.  a Target Man in FM doesn't have to be a big brute like Andy Carroll for example - players make low passes and crosses too.

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26 minutes ago, herne79 said:

The TQ at AMCR will have something to do with it.  However it probably has more to do with the variety down the two flanks.  On the left, the WB(S) is instructed to play fewer risky passes and cross less, while the WM(A) is instructed to dribble more, cut inside and also cross less.  On the right, the FB(A) has a default instruction to cross more and the WM(S) has also been told to do this.

I figured that. So basically your left side is not instructed to provide assists. It's more about providing support with presence close to the Poacher. Does the BBM assist or score goals?

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Had been meaning to do another save with Fiorentina and this challenge is the perfect reason for it. I played a few friendly games on FM touch rather than letting my assistant and I was definitely managing to make the Poacher the main goalscorer so I figured I'd go full fat. 

The Team

Fiorentina are an interesting one, I managed them on FM17 using a strikerless formation to great success, but even before the tragic death of Davide Astori (who is still in the game) only 8 of their first team squad were at the club as recently as January 2017. They're a young team (the youngest in Serie A) who don't excel in any area but many of their players have great room for improvement such as Federico Chiesa, Giovanni Simeone and Marco Benassi. Plus the lack of established members of the squad makes it harder to lose the dressing room by falling out with a single player. Once you reach January and the new signings will be mostly willing to leave its basically build-your-own-club. 

The Tactic

Going off of limited information (literally this one article) I've attempted to make a tactic in the style of Roma 2000-01 with the Totti-Batistuta-Montella partnership (which I read as Treq-CF-P) in a 5212 lineup.

5aa455ab93160_ScreenShot2018-03-10at22_00_54.thumb.png.9dcc9f8385666223e7360bf267e29162.png

Attacking / Flexible with Much Deeper Defensive Line and Whipped Crosses. Deeper as the one thing our defence are not the fastest bunch but are decent headers of the ball, whipped crosses as our forwards have a decent amount of speed, especially if Chiesa rotates with Simeone as a Poacher (although he only has 12 finishing all the mentals are good for the role, in particular 16 off the ball). Flexible as this team isn't good enough to play (very) fluid, attacking as I hope it will encourage them to play forward even when the counter mechanism hasn't activated.

My equivalent of the more offensive Cafu is my LWB Biraghi as he can't really defend whereas my right-sided options can, wasn't really sure what to do with the centre mid roles so I have a Carrilero due to the offensive nature of my left flank, and a BBM as its Benassi's best role. 

TIs:

GK distribute quickly as I hope we can get forward with speed

WB-Su cross from deep, cross aim far post  as herne said variety is key and this is a different way of crossing than the LWB, far post as that's where my Poacher will be.

WB-A cross aim near post  again just trying to get the ball to the poacher, hoping he can nip in front of the near-side defender and get a shot off, this guy already has cross from byline selected.

CF-Su move into channels I figure he either makes space for the Trequartista to play the killer ball through to the poacher by moving a defender away, or receives the ball and plays it across the face of goal for the poacher himself.

 

As I said this only had a few tests but nothing was going drastically wrong, and aside from not using Federico Chiesa out wide this gets a lot of my players into their preferred positions. If anyone has suggestions or criticisms feel free, I'll update in this thread after 10 games or so. 

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3 hours ago, zlatanera said:

Had been meaning to do another save with Fiorentina and this challenge is the perfect reason for it. I played a few friendly games on FM touch rather than letting my assistant and I was definitely managing to make the Poacher the main goalscorer so I figured I'd go full fat. 

The Team

Fiorentina are an interesting one, I managed them on FM17 using a strikerless formation to great success, but even before the tragic death of Davide Astori (who is still in the game) only 8 of their first team squad were at the club as recently as January 2017. They're a young team (the youngest in Serie A) who don't excel in any area but many of their players have great room for improvement such as Federico Chiesa, Giovanni Simeone and Marco Benassi. Plus the lack of established members of the squad makes it harder to lose the dressing room by falling out with a single player. Once you reach January and the new signings will be mostly willing to leave its basically build-your-own-club. 

The Tactic

Going off of limited information (literally this one article) I've attempted to make a tactic in the style of Roma 2000-01 with the Totti-Batistuta-Montella partnership (which I read as Treq-CF-P) in a 5212 lineup.

5aa455ab93160_ScreenShot2018-03-10at22_00_54.thumb.png.9dcc9f8385666223e7360bf267e29162.png

Attacking / Flexible with Much Deeper Defensive Line and Whipped Crosses. Deeper as the one thing our defence are not the fastest bunch but are decent headers of the ball, whipped crosses as our forwards have a decent amount of speed, especially if Chiesa rotates with Simeone as a Poacher (although he only has 12 finishing all the mentals are good for the role, in particular 16 off the ball). Flexible as this team isn't good enough to play (very) fluid, attacking as I hope it will encourage them to play forward even when the counter mechanism hasn't activated.

My equivalent of the more offensive Cafu is my LWB Biraghi as he can't really defend whereas my right-sided options can, wasn't really sure what to do with the centre mid roles so I have a Carrilero due to the offensive nature of my left flank, and a BBM as its Benassi's best role. 

TIs:

GK distribute quickly as I hope we can get forward with speed

WB-Su cross from deep, cross aim far post  as herne said variety is key and this is a different way of crossing than the LWB, far post as that's where my Poacher will be.

WB-A cross aim near post  again just trying to get the ball to the poacher, hoping he can nip in front of the near-side defender and get a shot off, this guy already has cross from byline selected.

CF-Su move into channels I figure he either makes space for the Trequartista to play the killer ball through to the poacher by moving a defender away, or receives the ball and plays it across the face of goal for the poacher himself.

 

As I said this only had a few tests but nothing was going drastically wrong, and aside from not using Federico Chiesa out wide this gets a lot of my players into their preferred positions. If anyone has suggestions or criticisms feel free, I'll update in this thread after 10 games or so. 

Astori :(:(:(

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42 minutes ago, FMunderachiever said:

Astori :(:(:(

RIP. 

image.thumb.png.c6db7ec65c2159552028e60b36132b56.png

Some scenes in Florence. It does actually feel weird that he's in my game to be honest, a bit like if I were managing Ajax the presence of Nouri would feel odd.

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So got a chance to play through some games. From my earlier post, I did not reveal the team or names of the poachers....... I am managing Lyon, and my primary poach is Mariano with the backup being none other than former Wigan flop Mauro Boselli 

Stats Analysis 

I posted his attributes and trait in the earlier post, and also showed a bit of my tactic and how i plan to feed him. In terms of stats, my side have played 16 games thus far, with Mariano appearing in 12. His return of 10 goals is not earth shattering (and hardly matches 5 in a game!) but given he is a notch or 3 below the likes of PEA, I think it is reasonable. What is also quite interesting, is that he has only 1 assist across those 12 games, showing he is playing very much the "poacher" role. 

1e2f246ca887f60457a69f6dd88c0881.png

Contrast this with his striker partner, Fekir is almost certainly a "better player" and in using him as a False 9 I seem to be getting the best of him. His goals are a bonus, but the real interesting difference is the assist numbers:

200e21a92474e7af83a16dd11d8a0ce7.png


Of course, Mariano has sat out a few games and Boselli, my other poacher has stepped in, his return is also more than decent, again with the lack of assists showing his focus on scoring goals

5ce170ddab77b6ca0acccedae9459067.png

 

Goal Types

If we look in some more detail at the goals scored by Mariano in particular, what we see is that a large chunk of his goals are scored from inside the 6 yard box, or if not then certainly from within 10 yards or so. That is a penalty box poacher :) 

b7b9b2717c3a36a30f658d377ab16ed3.png0115b4d7bbec9f5af444b782d37382af.png

87d00da20544056205913844fd536ed9.pngc4ab0d4c84125e500b408408dda530f9.png

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b78b4c60ab5d003f0638daa4dd107972.png859aa2e2c7c2001d4ff23b2d49db5fee.png36ef1290e63c9fc94497f52412262f13.png

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So I'm 11 games into the Serie A season, thought I'd give an update on the tactic:

image.png.4c17b1912cb540a32fd2b7255d64cdeb.png

Preferred lineup is as shown with 2 alterations - Gustavo Gomez for Pezzella and Federico Chiesa for Falcinelli. Since the original post I also added "Close Down Much Less" on my Poacher as I noticed Simeone was chasing lost causes in a Wayne Rooney-esque fashion and ending up with both the WB-At and CAR-Su almost off the screen ahead of him when he won the ball back.

The team has scored 22 goals and my top scorer with 6 is my Poacher. Given our level that's good right? Not so sure - 2 of those were penalties even if he did win both. Our 2nd top scorer is the centre back Vitor Hugo as we seem to be absolute weapons off set pieces, with Falcinelli playing as a CF-Su scoring 5 also (all as a substitute). Furthermore Simeone has two assists which isn't necessarily what we want to see, although one of them was a ludicrous cross-field pass after chasing down a cleared corner so perhaps its nothing. 

I've noticed goals from my CF tend to be late runs to the back post so part of me thinks Simeone is making space for them when I was hoping it was the other way round, so perhaps I should change the role to CF-At? But then 3 attack duties will be extremely isolated with only the BBM and WB-At getting anywhere near in support. 

Although all the Poacher's goals have been from in the box he has a habit of shooting from distance - in games where we've dominated or been evens he has a couple shots outside the box miles off target every time, whereas in tight games he either shoots from in the penalty box, or not at all in the case of our 0-0 parked bus at Juventus. I'm thinking perhaps "Work Ball Into Box" might be ticked for games I expect to do well in from now on. Although looking at his attributes maybe this guy, performing in attribute-wise the most average team in the league (we rank 9-11th in so many attributes its unreal), perhaps if he can get 10 non-penalty goals by the winter break and nobody (bar perhaps Vitor "the battering ram" Hugo off of set pieces) in my team is outscoring him that'll be acceptable? 

5aa4c3ee69a2b_ScreenShot2018-03-11at05_46_58.thumb.png.d373b5476ed94af7b962618c2e98de67.png

As you can see he's not exactly Gerd Müller so maybe I'm expecting too much of him. OP you never did say if this was like the formation challenge in that only the first season really counted?

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I found that in my brief run testing this that the PPM "shoots with power" despite attributes makes the player miss more than score. "Places shots" IMHO is a MUST.

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4 minutes ago, craigd84 said:

I found that in my brief run testing this that the PPM "shoots with power" despite attributes makes the player miss more than score. "Places shots" IMHO is a MUST.

Testing what tactic?

 

I think it depends how you're playing - if you're going to have a lot of one-v-ones it could be useful to place it round the keeper. I'm currently training Giovanni Simeone to have "Shoots with power" as he's mostly getting on the end of crosses at close proximity to the keeper or involved in chaos following a set piece - in both cases I think just blasting it is more likely to give us a goal, I may be wrong though.

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1 hour ago, zlatanera said:

Testing what tactic?

 

I think it depends how you're playing - if you're going to have a lot of one-v-ones it could be useful to place it round the keeper. I'm currently training Giovanni Simeone to have "Shoots with power" as he's mostly getting on the end of crosses at close proximity to the keeper or involved in chaos following a set piece - in both cases I think just blasting it is more likely to give us a goal, I may be wrong though.

That' a really good shout. I' using two tactics actually. One similar to yours which was surprising. I'm trying to recreate the Totti Batigol and Montella link. Which using your logic I should use my poacher with shoots with power as there are loads of crosses.

 

My other tactic is a 4 1 3 1 1 wide midfielders as I find they are more customisable. Toning down Asensio's tendency to dribble often and shoot from long range for example.

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26 minutes ago, craigd84 said:

That' a really good shout. I' using two tactics actually. One similar to yours which was surprising. I'm trying to recreate the Totti Batigol and Montella link. Which using your logic I should use my poacher with shoots with power as there are loads of crosses.

 

My other tactic is a 4 1 3 1 1 wide midfielders as I find they are more customisable. Toning down Asensio's tendency to dribble often and shoot from long range for example.

Realistically you should probably just watch a bunch of videos of Vincenzo Montella finishes to see whether he placed or powered normally. I don't think anyone really tries to take a touch and place their shot off a tap in (Except Wayne Rooney that time under Louis Van Gaal where he did as he was told, took a touch, losing the ball to Kyle Walker who buried it in the bottom corner). I was also swayed by the fact that Simeone was apparently unable to learn to place shots.

Also I've just looked at the save it was actually "tries first time shots" that he was being trained in, although I'm going to teach him to blast the ball too. I chose first time shots because I think it'll make him less likely to square it to his partner when blasting it near post "the Roman Burki" can also work. Still, since he finished learning his new move he has 5 in 5 (only 1 penalty, which he won anyway) so I may be onto something.

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First time shots is imperative.

 

Montella was a placer.  But occasionally could hit a screamer. He always reminded me of Robbie Fowler.

Edited by craigd84

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On 10/03/2018 at 06:10, FlairRA said:

Love this idea, hopefully it's the first of many! I'll try a big man - little man combo myself, with crosses coming in through the wings.

image.thumb.png.d00869372047def454d1400d64153913.png

image.thumb.png.1e5163be38a2b52d8ded1b146f0ec925.png

Big man, bigger man!

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I've finished my season and it sure was fun using Aubameyang as a poacher. Arsenal were predicted to finish 6th at the start of the season and I managed to get them to 3rd, one point off Man City and 4 off Man United.

PEA finished the season with 46 goals in all competitions from 51 starts and 5 sub appearances. It's safe to say he was the teams main goal scorer as the next best was Lacazette with 12.

auba.thumb.PNG.f78600d4cc2732b236b4ad3fff1e6b6c.PNG

He was unstoppable in the Europa League with 12 goals from 10 starts and 2 cameos. Funny thing is he finished second top scorer in the competition with Andre Silva of AC Milan scoring a massive 21 goals. In the Premier league he reached my target of 30+ goals despite missing 3 games due to injury. He again came second in the top scorer leaderboard with Aguero notching one more than him.

I mainly used a 4231 but also used a low block 4411 quite a bit (that system destroyed Man City 6-0) and very occasionally a 4312.

20180312001144_1.thumb.jpg.7fbc8dbf9fed05c2acf762a20a177494.jpg

20180312001348_1.thumb.jpg.9b79108ff5f3e3ef909141b9e4108975.jpg

20180312001320_1.thumb.jpg.c30c5eb6edbf645008504a2b933a8498.jpg

I'm thinking of playing another season as two of my most creative players in Ozil and Mkhitaryan both missed large portions of the season through injury. 

Edited by NabsKebabs

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On 11/03/2018 at 03:30, Jambo98 said:

So got a chance to play through some games. From my earlier post, I did not reveal the team or names of the poachers....... I am managing Lyon, and my primary poach is Mariano with the backup being none other than former Wigan flop Mauro Boselli 

Stats Analysis 

I posted his attributes and trait in the earlier post, and also showed a bit of my tactic and how i plan to feed him. In terms of stats, my side have played 16 games thus far, with Mariano appearing in 12. His return of 10 goals is not earth shattering (and hardly matches 5 in a game!) but given he is a notch or 3 below the likes of PEA, I think it is reasonable. What is also quite interesting, is that he has only 1 assist across those 12 games, showing he is playing very much the "poacher" role. 

1e2f246ca887f60457a69f6dd88c0881.png

Contrast this with his striker partner, Fekir is almost certainly a "better player" and in using him as a False 9 I seem to be getting the best of him. His goals are a bonus, but the real interesting difference is the assist numbers:

200e21a92474e7af83a16dd11d8a0ce7.png


Of course, Mariano has sat out a few games and Boselli, my other poacher has stepped in, his return is also more than decent, again with the lack of assists showing his focus on scoring goals

5ce170ddab77b6ca0acccedae9459067.png

 

Goal Types

If we look in some more detail at the goals scored by Mariano in particular, what we see is that a large chunk of his goals are scored from inside the 6 yard box, or if not then certainly from within 10 yards or so. That is a penalty box poacher :) 

b7b9b2717c3a36a30f658d377ab16ed3.png0115b4d7bbec9f5af444b782d37382af.png

87d00da20544056205913844fd536ed9.pngc4ab0d4c84125e500b408408dda530f9.png

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b78b4c60ab5d003f0638daa4dd107972.png859aa2e2c7c2001d4ff23b2d49db5fee.png36ef1290e63c9fc94497f52412262f13.png

I was just wondering, how did you produce those maps of the goals? Are they reasonably easy to generate in the game? Also as a big fan of Lyon am interested to hear if you've made further progress - before I decided upon Fiorentina I did consider revisiting Lyon as my last save I offloaded Mariano as he didn't adapt to strikerless. Then ended up using an exploit tactic to save my job :/

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10 minutes ago, zlatanera said:

I was just wondering, how did you produce those maps of the goals? Are they reasonably easy to generate in the game?

If you go to the match analysis screen (either at the end of the game or from Tactics/Analysis and then choose the match you want), you can choose 'Players' and then goals, you get an overview screen showing the goals scored. If you hover your mouse over the icons, you get the option to view the highlight, or view linked events. That last one brings up the diagram.

If that isn't clear (and describing a route through FM's menus often isn't) I can produce some screenshots to show you.

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15 minutes ago, warlock said:

If you go to the match analysis screen (either at the end of the game or from Tactics/Analysis and then choose the match you want), you can choose 'Players' and then goals, you get an overview screen showing the goals scored. If you hover your mouse over the icons, you get the option to view the highlight, or view linked events. That last one brings up the diagram.

If that isn't clear (and describing a route through FM's menus often isn't) I can produce some screenshots to show you.

Crystal clear

5aa67bb153341_ScreenShot2018-03-12at13_07_28.thumb.png.a0370833f4d4013ed8e8e6cd9ce40b8e.png

Doesn't actually do justice to how much a "poacher" goal this was - Chiesa was one-on-one with the goalkeeper and he knocked it sideways for SImeone to power into an empty net. 

He actually broke Mattia Perin's hand with  shot earlier in the game as well haha

Going to have lots of fun looking at all my poacher's goals now thanks.

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23 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

@Jambo98 what skin do you use? It looks far better than those ugly current crop of skins such as FLUT

Just the standard one. Its one of those things i keep meaning to look at improving but to be honest, the skins on FM have never overly bothered or captured my interest. 

I think in previous years I used the skin with instant result enabled, because it allows you to do pre-season "properly" without playing each friendly (if you let the ass man take charge, you end up with 11 fit players and rest at 60%) 

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On 08/03/2018 at 12:32, herne79 said:

The Challenge

Build a (or more than one) successful system*, using a team of your choice, that includes a Poacher as your main goal scorer.  The system should be based on sound footballing principles, so no 6 strikers with lots of crazy tactical settings.

* By successful, you should aim to at least meet (better yet, exceed) both your start of season media prediction and your Board's expectations.  And your Poacher should end the season as your top goal scorer.

Well, according to my board I exceeded expectations so technically I have fully succeeded in this challenge! But I'm not particularly pleased, so let me explain:

My tactic was this:

image.png.3befc978a0bda3cca2f82668655c0bf1.png

Attacking / Flexible

TIs were Drop Much Deeper and Whipped Crosses

My Poacher Giovanni Simeone did indeed finish as my top scorer with 18 goals in the league (3 penalties), which ranked him 4th of all goalscorers in the league. For a man with both "inconsistent performer" and "doesn't enjoy big matches" who continually showed up in the big matches this wasn't bad.

My board expectations were "mid-table finish" and "quarter finals of the Coppa Italia". Apparently 10th place counts as "exceeding expectations" as it is "top-half" rather than "mid-table". We reached the quarter finals of the Coppa Italia as well, losing on penalties (we missed all of ours). 

I'm really unhappy about that finish however because after defeating Torino 4-2 on 30th December we were top of the league! Then this happened:

5aa69c194165c_ScreenShot2018-03-12at15_25_30.thumb.png.6c4f014cea584e58587a622574625b97.png

I thought the Milan and Lazio results, where my Poacher scored 2 in each game might have suggested I just needed to deviate from my dropping deep and breaking strategy against similar level clubs - that perhaps those clubs were taking us more seriously now. But only 4 wins in 2018 is atrocious...I even changed tactic to a very basic 4-4-2 (still with a poacher) on counter for the last 4 games - the goals conceded dried up then we just weren't very good going forward, and Simeone scored our only goal in May. Even if that 4-4-2 were promising (and goalkeeping howlers were responsible for all 3 goals conceded) I just don't have the players for it - I've got two No. 10s coming for next season and barely any money, doubt I'll get any soon either.

So yeah, technically I succeeded as I "exceeded expectations" in the most optimistic sense and also got my Poacher to be my top scorer (and actually score more league goals than any Fiorentina player since Alberto Gilardino in 2008-09) but still, can't help put feel I've failed somewhat, especially as I was trying to make a Montella-Batigol-Totti trio and my trequartistas were terrible in almost every game.  

 

Edited by zlatanera

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11 minutes ago, zlatanera said:

Well, according to my board I exceeded expectations so technically I have fully succeeded in this challenge! But I'm not particularly pleased, so let me explain:

My tactic was this:

image.png.3befc978a0bda3cca2f82668655c0bf1.png

Attacking / Flexible

TIs were Drop Much Deeper and Whipped Crosses

My Poacher Giovanni Simeone did indeed finish as my top scorer with 18 goals in the league (3 penalties), which ranked him 4th of all goalscorers in the league. For a man with both "inconsistent performer" and "doesn't enjoy big matches" who continually showed up in the big matches this wasn't bad.

My board expectations were "mid-table finish" and "quarter finals of the Coppa Italia". Apparently 10th place counts as "exceeding expectations" as it is "top-half" rather than "mid-table". We reached the quarter finals of the Coppa Italia as well, losing on penalties (we missed all of ours). 

I'm really unhappy about that finish however because after defeating Torino 4-2 on 30th December we were top of the league! Then this happened:

5aa69c194165c_ScreenShot2018-03-12at15_25_30.thumb.png.6c4f014cea584e58587a622574625b97.png

I thought the Milan and Lazio results, where my Poacher scored 2 in each game might have suggested I just needed to deviate from my dropping deep and breaking strategy against similar level clubs - that perhaps those clubs were taking us more seriously now. But only 4 wins in 2018 is atrocious...I even changed tactic to a very basic 4-4-2 (still with a poacher) on counter for the last 4 games - the goals conceded dried up then we just weren't very good going forward, and Simeone scored our only goal in May. Even if that 4-4-2 were promising (and goalkeeping howlers were responsible for all 3 goals conceded) I just don't have the players for it - I've got two No. 10s coming for next season and barely any money, doubt I'll get any soon either.

So yeah, technically I succeeded as I "exceeded expectations" in the most optimistic sense and also got my Poacher to be my top scorer (and actually score more league goals than any Fiorentina player since Alberto Gilardino in 2008-09) but still, can't help put feel I've failed somewhat, especially as I was trying to make a Montella-Batigol-Totti trio and my trequartistas were terrible in almost every game.  

Screen Shot 2018-03-12 at 15.34.29.png

Because you and I are using a similar tactic I would say...

 

Move the middle centre back into the dm strata set has half back.

Both centre backs to have direct passing, I feel this helps clearly lines if there' no option but if there is an option  they find it.

 

My left cm is set to dip d. My right to MEZ s. 

 

Our front 3 are the same.

 

Team set up

 

Fairly narrow

Closing down some times 

Slightly higher line

Pass into space *vital*

Retain possession 

Structured Attacking

Works ball into box.

 

This for me is immense as Roma.

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22 minutes ago, craigd84 said:

Because you and I are using a similar tactic I would say...

 

Move the middle centre back into the dm strata set has half back.

Both centre backs to have direct passing, I feel this helps clearly lines if there' no option but if there is an option  they find it.

 

My left cm is set to dip d. My right to MEZ s. 

 

Our front 3 are the same.

 

Team set up

 

Fairly narrow

Closing down some times 

Slightly higher line

Pass into space *vital*

Retain possession 

Structured Attacking

Works ball into box.

 

This for me is immense as Roma.

Cheers for the advice. I had considered some of those - namely the narrowness, retain possession and structured. We're not really very good at anything though and one of the things we're not good at is being fast defenders so higher line is a big no-no. I had been occasionally removing "move into channels" from my CF and changing BBM to Mezz in later stages but I couldn't tell if we were creating more chances because of the role change or the TI changes I made saving the game. I considered a DLP as well as the Carrilero never got a good rating, but I was worried that it would then take the ball away from the Trequartista as the team would now be looking to two playmakers rather than one. Sadly the other Defend duties (BWM and CM) both have more closing down ticked by default as well so I worried that midfielder would be all over the place. 

Why a DM instead of a BPD? Just practicality? Or do you think its more suitable to how they played? I only went off one article, maybe Aldair / Zago played more like a stopper? In which case Half Back is perfect. 

5aa6a719c8fb5_ScreenShot2018-03-12at16_08_59.thumb.png.7e0eda5bbd8f8bc8039477f2671454ed.png

To be honest looking at the league 10th was decent - only 10 points between me and the CL and a win on the last day would have put me 6th. Its the Pardew of it all that worries me - the idea that I'll continue losing all the way through 2018 and the only hope would be to somehow hold onto my job until January when we'd go on a great run again. We were really good against the big teams as well, the losses were all narrow and unlucky. It was the smaller teams that hammered us.

Edited by zlatanera

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I play Chiellini at the back... 7 acceleration. Even with a high line but high block seems to work as I see it as.. pin them back and they can' attack.

 

I chose half back as I felt they win the ball better than a bpd. It just seemed to work better. Because when we got the ball he steps out of defence enough to help recycle the ball. Defensively I find them more aggressive than a cb. He kind of becomes a stopper yeah, both my cbs are set to close down less.

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49 minutes ago, Jambo98 said:

Just the standard one. Its one of those things i keep meaning to look at improving but to be honest, the skins on FM have never overly bothered or captured my interest. 

I think in previous years I used the skin with instant result enabled, because it allows you to do pre-season "properly" without playing each friendly (if you let the ass man take charge, you end up with 11 fit players and rest at 60%) 

Yeah I want to use instant result skin more too but I just hate AI never uses subs when you instant result a match. But how did you get attribute diagram in profile like that? Are you playing on fm 2018?

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5 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

Yeah I want to use instant result skin more too but I just hate AI never uses subs when you instant result a match. But how did you get attribute diagram in profile like that? Are you playing on fm 2018?

You know, in all the months playing this game i never even noticed that diagram :D  Yeah its FM 18, is it not the default on Overview > Attributes screen? I never migrated to the "new" style player profile. I am old school and want the landing page to be the attributes one like it was in the good ol days.....

If not, I would guess that might actually be part of the facepack / logos or something?

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17 minutes ago, Jambo98 said:

Yeah its FM 18, is it not the default on Overview > Attributes screen?

Yes, it is. The default screen is 'Profile' but I believe you can change that in the Preferences.

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2 minutes ago, warlock said:

Yes, it is. The default screen is 'Profile' but I believe you can change that in the Preferences.

Cool will try that out when come back from work. Was getting kinda tired of the default screen

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2 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

Cool will try that out when come back from work. Was getting kinda tired of the default screen

Just looked and it is, indeed, a preference choice. Go to Preferences/Interface and at the top-right you can choose which of the two screens is the preferred landing page.

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1 hour ago, zlatanera said:

one of the things we're not good at is being fast defenders so higher line is a big no-no

You're using the Attacking mentality, little (if any) midfield protective screen for your central defenders, and your wingbacks are more like wingers.

I appreciate you're using drop much deeper, but that'll still only put your def. line at about where the Standard mentality would have it.  And at the same time it'll increase that huge gap between your midfield and defence even further.

imo you caught other teams napping with your attacking play in the first half of the season but in the second half they recognised your success and tightened up, catching you out in return.  Hence your results.

Good job in exceeding expectations and with getting your Poacher to score goals - that front 3 set up looks good - and I think with a few tweaks during matches once you recognise what your opponents are up to you'll do even better next season.

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3 hours ago, herne79 said:

You're using the Attacking mentality, little (if any) midfield protective screen for your central defenders, and your wingbacks are more like wingers.

I appreciate you're using drop much deeper, but that'll still only put your def. line at about where the Standard mentality would have it.  And at the same time it'll increase that huge gap between your midfield and defence even further.

imo you caught other teams napping with your attacking play in the first half of the season but in the second half they recognised your success and tightened up, catching you out in return.  Hence your results.

Good job in exceeding expectations and with getting your Poacher to score goals - that front 3 set up looks good - and I think with a few tweaks during matches once you recognise what your opponents are up to you'll do even better next season.

Cheers. To be honest I'm amazed none of the big teams really exploited the gap at all - they tended to score screamers or from crosses (which makes sense as my wing-backs also just aren't very good at their jobs). I'm giving serious consideration to @craigd84 advice about the half-back...if I can buy one. We don't have much money so I can't afford to sign Pezzella permanently which means I'm down a CD anyway so switching to a 2 man defence isn't out of the question. 

Possibly I'll build two versions of the tactic as the original still hilariously dominated Milan and Juve struggled with it as well but if we're going to be taken seriously by opponents then learning to control a game might be an idea. Its kinda frustrating trying to find anyone with a 3 at the back tactic to compare to anywhere in these forums - the only ones I find are all those exploit ones which I'm not about (even when I did try one in a save I got it wrong by using full backs instead of wing backs). 

EDIT: Can't believe I've managed to build this tactic whilst being so ignorant of the mentality bar! WB-A on Attacking works because Biraghi is actually a winger anyway but no wonder my carrilero seemed keen to get into the box!

Edited by zlatanera

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25 minutes ago, zlatanera said:

Its kinda frustrating trying to find anyone with a 3 at the back tactic to compare to anywhere in these forums - the only ones I find are all those exploit ones which I'm not about (even when I did try one in a save I got it wrong by using full backs instead of wing backs). 

I know you've read my Attacking and Possession thread where I use 3 at the back as you've commented in it.  You could also check the guides and other threads of interest links in the topic pinned at the top of the forum labelled "Please Read".  iirc Cleon wrote some articles using 3 at the back which you'll find in there.

Pretty sure Cleon and I aren't using one of those exploit ones ;).

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Funny enough I've been using a poacher upfront in my save, I'll write my analysis some point later today.

 

Great read as always @herne79, and this will definitely keep me motivated as I run away with Ligue2 :brock:

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18 hours ago, herne79 said:

I know you've read my Attacking and Possession thread where I use 3 at the back as you've commented in it.  You could also check the guides and other threads of interest links in the topic pinned at the top of the forum labelled "Please Read".  iirc Cleon wrote some articles using 3 at the back which you'll find in there.

Pretty sure Cleon and I aren't using one of those exploit ones ;).

how is your poacher getting on? 

also how would you use a poacher when the oppo are sitting deep and not giving away space. played a few teams with a back 5 and my poacher is redundant in those games

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19 hours ago, herne79 said:

I know you've read my Attacking and Possession thread where I use 3 at the back as you've commented in it.  You could also check the guides and other threads of interest links in the topic pinned at the top of the forum labelled "Please Read".  iirc Cleon wrote some articles using 3 at the back which you'll find in there.

Pretty sure Cleon and I aren't using one of those exploit ones ;).

Yeah, between that and an article I ended up reading on Helenio Herrera I've decided to use a Sweeper. This is untested so far (I've not gone a day past the last game of the season yet) but I've gone for subtle tweaks:

5aa803da7e164_ScreenShot2018-03-13at17_00_38.thumb.png.3c5159e54a34d04567426bed5424b2e3.png

I'm not unwilling to change mentality, just if I do that it affects everything so I'd rather just work within it - less to think about. The front three I've left alone - I figure by not dropping the defensive line we might win the ball back higher up, giving the Trequartista more time on the ball to create whereas previously we tended to just bypass him. Once I decided I was having a Sweeper I pull my wing-backs into the defensive line purely because I liked how it looks on the tactics screen - stupid I know but I can't see any reason why they won't perform how I want. I'm concerned CM-De might get pulled out of position having "Close Down More" ticked by default (still unsure why SI did that, CM was always the most customisable role and now you can't customise the "sitter" of your midfield partnership as much) but on the other hand if the wing-back pushes on he might close down wide like the Carrillero was meant to do in the last iteration. 

Keeping 3 at the back furthermore means I don't have to change my squad structure too much - 10th place finishes in Serie A don't tend to lead to a war chest unless you're Milan. 

I've kept my original in the first tactic slot as it worked great in the big games - I think basically we got pegged back so far the gap between the midfield and defence disappeared, then we scored by actually activating the counter mechanism. 

Will update if I actually make it into competitive football today. 

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The next tactical series should be the Libero.

I would love to see how to utilise the Libero in a successful winning formation.

It seems like a position that is so unique to see nowadays, and it seems like perhaps the least used position in the game.

In real life, i can only think of David Luiz that excels in this kind of role.

 

Im a Leicester fan, and at times Harry Maguire displays Libero characteristics

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4 hours ago, the SLC said:

how is your poacher getting on? 

also how would you use a poacher when the oppo are sitting deep and not giving away space. played a few teams with a back 5 and my poacher is redundant in those games

PEA won world footballer of the year (or whatever it's called), so pretty well.

It's not the Poacher that's redundant (assuming he has good off the ball), it's his supply.  Post your system, you'll probably get some fresh ideas.

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2 hours ago, FMunderachiever said:

The next tactical series should be the Libero.

I would love to see how to utilise the Libero in a successful winning formation.

It seems like a position that is so unique to see nowadays, and it seems like perhaps the least used position in the game.

I second that emotion. I was about to post this myself, you beat me by two hours :-)

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11 hours ago, herne79 said:

PEA won world footballer of the year (or whatever it's called), so pretty well.

It's not the Poacher that's redundant (assuming he has good off the ball), it's his supply.  Post your system, you'll probably get some fresh ideas.

how many goals did he score?

as you can see i have implemented ideas from yourself and cleon. tried the treq poacher combo as i have alexis sanches and wanted to give him a go.

Screenshot (11).png

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6 hours ago, the SLC said:

how many goals did he score?

Too many ;).

6 hours ago, the SLC said:

as you can see i have implemented ideas from yourself and cleon. tried the treq poacher combo as i have alexis sanches and wanted to give him a go.

Screenshot (11).png

I don't really understand what you're going for here.  You seem to be kind of mashing together my 442 and Cleon's 4231 and hoping it somehow works?

You say your problem is when you play teams with 5 at the back.  As you are Man Utd, I'd imagine these are teams who are playing fairly cautiously against you?  If that's the case, 5 at the back isn't really the problem, it's getting past their cautious and organised defence (which happens to have 5 at the back).

First of all, you have an offset Poacher/TQ.  Why?  Because I used that?  I used that for a specific reason and to help balance with the rest of the system.  But you're not using that system therefore it may not be good for your own.  A centralised Poacher (for example) may be able to run to the left or right of the central DC in a back 3, whereas offsetting him may reduce his options a little.

Next, how is your left winger getting the ball?  A big part of his job will be to get crosses into the box for the Poacher to feed off, how's that going?  He looks a bit isolated to me.

Also what's happening down your right flank?  A wide midfielder, an attacking fullback and an SV on attack all moving to the right.  Why do you want that?  Who's helping out the TQ in the middle?

And finally, which players are you using for these roles?  Setting roles, duties and instructions are one side of the coin.  The other side is are the players you have capable of carrying our your plan?

Overall I get the feeling you're trying a bit too hard without fully understanding what's going on.  Why not just use a plain old 4231 for example?  Sanchez on the right as a winger perhaps, maybe Rashford on the left as an IF/RMD, Mata at AMC, whoever is left over for the Poacher (Martial? or just buy one?), a couple of holding midfielders and fullbacks doing their thing.  I'm not overly familiar with the Man Utd squad - 4231 is just my instinct - so maybe if @themadsheep2001 ever pulls his finger out and writes about his system that he's been promising since forever (:D) you'll get some other ideas.  Plenty of other Man Utd threads about in the mean time to give you ideas if you are stuck :thup:.

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33 minutes ago, herne79 said:

Too many ;).

I don't really understand what you're going for here.  You seem to be kind of mashing together my 442 and Cleon's 4231 and hoping it somehow works?

You say your problem is when you play teams with 5 at the back.  As you are Man Utd, I'd imagine these are teams who are playing fairly cautiously against you?  If that's the case, 5 at the back isn't really the problem, it's getting past their cautious and organised defence (which happens to have 5 at the back).

First of all, you have an offset Poacher/TQ.  Why?  Because I used that?  I used that for a specific reason and to help balance with the rest of the system.  But you're not using that system therefore it may not be good for your own.  A centralised Poacher (for example) may be able to run to the left or right of the central DC in a back 3, whereas offsetting him may reduce his options a little.

Next, how is your left winger getting the ball?  A big part of his job will be to get crosses into the box for the Poacher to feed off, how's that going?  He looks a bit isolated to me.

Also what's happening down your right flank?  A wide midfielder, an attacking fullback and an SV on attack all moving to the right.  Why do you want that?  Who's helping out the TQ in the middle?

And finally, which players are you using for these roles?  Setting roles, duties and instructions are one side of the coin.  The other side is are the players you have capable of carrying our your plan?

Overall I get the feeling you're trying a bit too hard without fully understanding what's going on.  Why not just use a plain old 4231 for example?  Sanchez on the right as a winger perhaps, maybe Rashford on the left as an IF/RMD, Mata at AMC, whoever is left over for the Poacher (Martial? or just buy one?), a couple of holding midfielders and fullbacks doing their thing.  I'm not overly familiar with the Man Utd squad - 4231 is just my instinct - so maybe if @themadsheep2001 ever pulls his finger out and writes about his system that he's been promising since forever (:D) you'll get some other ideas.  Plenty of other Man Utd threads about in the mean time to give you ideas if you are stuck :thup:.

I'm on holiday! I have started it though 

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@herne79 thanks for a great read!

As for left WM (the 'inside forwardish' in this system) would you ideally go for a right footed player or a left footed one? I think at Dortmund you had great options for both with Reus/Pulisic and Yarmolenko but what's your ideal choice? I'm thinking left footed can maybe provide a bit more variety and behave both as winger and as IF?

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37 minutes ago, kandersson said:

@herne79 thanks for a great read!

As for left WM (the 'inside forwardish' in this system) would you ideally go for a right footed player or a left footed one? I think at Dortmund you had great options for both with Reus/Pulisic and Yarmolenko but what's your ideal choice? I'm thinking left footed can maybe provide a bit more variety and behave both as winger and as IF?

Both work well.  When I first designed the system in FM16 it was for Di Maria as the left WM.  Yarmolenko is kind of similar and makes that winger/IF hybrid you mention whereas Reus gives a nice option and becomes a kind of IF/RMD hybrid.  PPMs come into play too.

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This looks like a bit of fun to get me stuck into FM18.

Just recently fired up a save with Arsenal and had created a 4-4-2 (ish) with a CF, no reason I can't change some things round to get a Poacher in it. 

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16 hours ago, herne79 said:

Too many ;).

I don't really understand what you're going for here.  You seem to be kind of mashing together my 442 and Cleon's 4231 and hoping it somehow works?

You say your problem is when you play teams with 5 at the back.  As you are Man Utd, I'd imagine these are teams who are playing fairly cautiously against you?  If that's the case, 5 at the back isn't really the problem, it's getting past their cautious and organised defence (which happens to have 5 at the back).

First of all, you have an offset Poacher/TQ.  Why?  Because I used that?  I used that for a specific reason and to help balance with the rest of the system.  But you're not using that system therefore it may not be good for your own.  A centralised Poacher (for example) may be able to run to the left or right of the central DC in a back 3, whereas offsetting him may reduce his options a little.

Next, how is your left winger getting the ball?  A big part of his job will be to get crosses into the box for the Poacher to feed off, how's that going?  He looks a bit isolated to me.

Also what's happening down your right flank?  A wide midfielder, an attacking fullback and an SV on attack all moving to the right.  Why do you want that?  Who's helping out the TQ in the middle?

And finally, which players are you using for these roles?  Setting roles, duties and instructions are one side of the coin.  The other side is are the players you have capable of carrying our your plan?

Overall I get the feeling you're trying a bit too hard without fully understanding what's going on.  Why not just use a plain old 4231 for example?  Sanchez on the right as a winger perhaps, maybe Rashford on the left as an IF/RMD, Mata at AMC, whoever is left over for the Poacher (Martial? or just buy one?), a couple of holding midfielders and fullbacks doing their thing.  I'm not overly familiar with the Man Utd squad - 4231 is just my instinct - so maybe if @themadsheep2001 ever pulls his finger out and writes about his system that he's been promising since forever (:D) you'll get some other ideas.  Plenty of other Man Utd threads about in the mean time to give you ideas if you are stuck :thup:.

that is exactly what ive done. not being tactically minded i have just tried to blend 2 tactics together. not giving much thought to the outcome. will start again from scratch. i do like a good old 442 formation but then again i like the 4231 narrow formation too.  will put more thought into in it and get back to you.

 

do we get to see a screen shot of your poachers goal record? i would settle for you just telling me though

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So a season on and I have just had my best performance from my Totti Batigol and Montella set up.

 

Paradiso AMC Treq is Totti

Messi CF S is Batigol ( will be replaced)

De Crisito P Montella.

 

 

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1 hour ago, craigd84 said:

So a season on and I have just had my best performance from my Totti Batigol and Montella set up.

 

Paradiso AMC Treq is Totti

Messi CF S is Batigol ( will be replaced)

De Crisito P Montella.

 

 

I can't believe you actually signed Messi...is De Crisito a regen or somebody in the game I just haven't heard of?

Quite ironic you're Roma when I've just finally had to incorporate your suggestion of a Half Back and promptly put 5 past them with my own version of the Totti Batigol Montella attack.

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Yes, Messi does feel like cheat mode. 

 

My scouts said I could get him for 45 to 50 million.. I couldn't turn down the chance.

 

I'm glad I did as he has tutored my "Totti"

Di Criscito is a regen yes. He has 11 in 9 atm but just been injured for a  month.

 

How did you like the half back? I think it adds loads to the formation. To the point he has become my most vital midfielder. 

Edited by craigd84

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I have started a save with Lazio. I am planning on rolling with a simple 4312, with immobile playing as a poacher. So far I did will in pre-season. Just beat Juventus 3-1 in the Super Cup, all though I was not at all pleased with my teams performance. I will continue tweaking and hopefully come back with something good.

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1 hour ago, craigd84 said:

 

Di Criscito is a regen yes. He has 11 in 9 atm but just been injured for a  month.

 

How did you like the half back? I think it adds loads to the formation. To the point he has become my most vital midfielder. 

I've got three outstanding regen strikers plus two outstanding Yugoslavian prospects in Dusan Vlahovic and Martin Graiciar in my squad, other than that our best prospects are wingers sadly. Going to try get D'Amico from Palermo to fill in as Treq.

Half Back is working ok so far in this tactic

5aaaba439539e_ScreenShot2018-03-15at18_23_46.thumb.png.9a4e5022e4236ee348164ab9d54b0ebc.png

5aaab84b802e0_ScreenShot2018-03-15at18_13_45.thumb.png.39877cd38283de68b90c348424bc986d.png

We've conceded some truly ridiculous goals, **** bouncing off of a post and five defenders off of a corner in the 90th minute because the player who would have headed it away went off injured 5 seconds earlier with no subs left, My guy diving in with two feet from behind a guy on the edge of the box knocking it on to their full back who scores from an impossible angle 3 yards out, 98th minute equalisers when only 2 minutes were added on etc. Weirdly Simeone has the "doesn't enjoy big matches" trait yet turned it on against Roma and Inter in that sequence. His inconsistency may be part of what is holding us back, I'm not sure. If there's sufficient interest for him (Dortmund were in for him at one point but didn't really bid very high) I may sell him despite 44 goals in 60 games (37 if you discount penalties).  I think part of my problem is not having anyone outside of Marc-Oliver Kempf capable of truly performing the HB role (the replacements are short) leading to us being extra vulnerable to long balls over the top. We played three at the back for a season, then a sweeper system, then a libero but I just couldn't get balance right. The board are pretty happy with me though (exciting football will do that, take notes Jose!) so I'll get the chance to get round pegs in round holes in summer.

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Looking good your tactic is a mirror of mine. Just different sides of the pitch lol. 

 

Though I don' have a CARRELIERO I selected DLP D. to help recycle the possession and be a bit more sturdy.

 

D'Amico will change your team in such a positive way.

 

Was looking at Vlahovic let me know how he is for You!!

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