Jump to content
Sports Interactive Community
herne79

Tactical Challenges #1: The Poacher

Recommended Posts

Awesome idea @herne79! I recently started a save with perfect set up for this but then lost interest due to my Everton save. The team is the little known KV Oostende in Belgium pro league. I initially got excited when, while searching for random teams to play, I noticed that they have perfect players for big man and small poacher partnership. Ibrahima Bah as poacher and Zinho Gano as typical big targetman. The system... 4-4-2 of course. Thanks for suggesting this mate! It's the perfect cure for easing those post Champions League final loss blues :) 

PS: and an added bonus they have Ricairo Zivkovic, my all time favourite from my old Ajax and Real Madrid saves in fm 2015. What a star he was! But even now he has great attributes for a poacher.

So challenge heartily accepted!

Edited by crusadertsar

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry forgot to answer your question. The striker on the left looks like a dream of a poacher. I'm practically salivating, jealous :) Those of the ball, anticipation, composure, finishing and acceleration attributes will make him deadly. In my opinion the most important attributes for a poacher. Can't wait to see how he will work for you.

Edited by crusadertsar

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Excellent idea / concept @herne79 - I remember trying to look at something similar but different years ago. Around the time Andy Carroll was flaming out at  Liverpool i had this thought about the fact that Target Men are a lost art, and rarely seen in FM to be a success.  I had some unstructured thought about picking the best 5 or so Target Men in the game and seeing who could make one into a top scorer. 

This is a far more structured and thought out approach though and allows for some real creative thinking :) I will try and get involved. Got FMO tonight which means no other FM time  but maybe tomorrow....

I love the poacher role this year. I used it in a 3412 variant a while back in a save where i won leagues in Spain (Athletic), France (Monaco) and Italy (Fiorentina). At one point i had Carlos Bacca absolutely smashing it in that role, something like 13 goals in his first 7 games as i recall but i lost interest. 

Be interesting to see some discussions around the different "types" of poacher as well.  2 of the best / most oft quoted examples of a poacher over the last 20 years or so would likely be Klose and Inzaghi - both could lay claim to the title, but they went about it in very different ways. 

Look forward to some great detailed ideas and analysis :) 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I love poachers :cool: for me, Pippo Inzaghi is always the first name that comes to mind. He wasn't particularly strong, fast, creative, or technical, but he sure did score lots of goals.

I'm currently using a flat 4-4-2 with a DF/TM partnership upfront, and I've been thinking about giving it more of an old-school style and try a TM/P classic partnership.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not trying to change the purpose of the thread, but, can a Poacher work well in a single forward tactic? Thinking, for example, in a 4141, 4123 wide DM?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Surely this is exactly the chance to find that out for yourself :brock:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Excellent idea. I'll see if I can find time to participate in this challenge and post something.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Keyzer Soze said:

Not trying to change the purpose of the thread, but, can a Poacher work well in a single forward tactic? Thinking, for example, in a 4141, 4123 wide DM?

Ideally he will work best if he players nearby supplying him. So, he can work well as a single forward, but in the case of a 4-1-4-1 maybe he will be too isolated up front. For example a 4-4-1-1 can be a better option.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

can a Poacher work well in a single forward tactic?

I've been employing a poacher for the past few seasons, but in a front two alongside either a TM (A), F9 or CF (A) and they work very well in this scenario, the prototypical fox-in-the-box. I have had little luck with employing either a Poacher or AF as a lone striker, They seem to be marked out easily when deployed alone, at least under my management.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am going to risk going all Cleon here...... but a poacher can work in any formation - It is about how you set up the system. Certainly harder to make it work with a 4141 but far from impossible if you understand the relationship between mentality, Team Shape and roles / duties.  Very much depends on how you want to have your poacher play and how you plan to give him the service.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, summatsupeer said:

@herne79 Funny you mention West Ham, i'd say they have one of the few modern top flight Poachers: Chicharito.

Who do you think that player on the left is?  ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Keyzer Soze said:

Not trying to change the purpose of the thread, but, can a Poacher work well in a single forward tactic? Thinking, for example, in a 4141, 4123 wide DM?

 

9 minutes ago, kingjericho said:

Ideally he will work best if he players nearby supplying him. So, he can work well as a single forward, but in the case of a 4-1-4-1 maybe he will be too isolated up front. For example a 4-4-1-1 can be a better option.

I'm thinking that in single forward formations without AMC, the Team Shape needs to be more fluid to bring the rest of the players closer to the Poacher for support and supply. Couple of more aggressive midfield roles can also help.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Jambo98 said:

Certainly harder to make it work with a 4141 but far from impossible

Yeh that's the key really in single striker formations with a Poacher - not impossible but for sure more tricky.

@Keyzer Soze In a 4141 / 4123DM (for example) you'd typically be looking for the lone "striker" to play a more active role in bringing other players into the equation rather than just, well, Poaching.  Can be done though :thup:.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Whose the player on the right?

 

He looks like he could do a job as the partner

 

Im in btw

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I use the poacher role a lot to curb excessive dribbling.  Did it to probably the best player in the world on my last save, because he had Runs With Ball Often and Knocks Ball Past Opponent, which didn't tend to go well with breaking down packed defenses.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm down also!

The poacher in my system will be...dun dun dun...Dries Mertens! Partnered by...dun dun dun...Roberto Firmino! (Spoiler: it will be a 2 striker system).

Edited by Curtinho

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, herne79 said:

Building off the back of @Jambo98's annual formation experiment, I thought it might be fun to start a series of tactical challenges.

I have a few ideas lined up (and if anyone has any others, please let me know) and thought I'd kick things off fairly easily (I hope!) by setting a challenge centred around a role that seems to be very rarely used - the Poacher.

The Challenge

Build a (or more than one) successful system*, using a team of your choice, that includes a Poacher as your main goal scorer.  The system should be based on sound footballing principles, so no 6 strikers with lots of crazy tactical settings.

* By successful, you should aim to at least meet (better yet, exceed) both your start of season media prediction and your Board's expectations.  And your Poacher should end the season as your top goal scorer.

Before you dive in, what is a Poacher?  (which is a question we should perhaps ask ourselves before picking any role).  There are two things to understand.

1)  The in game description + default player instructions:

vnaSGFN.png

When I read this, I think of players such as Gary Lineker.  I saw him play once against my West Ham team.  We lost 3-0 and Lineker scored all 3.  He did nothing all match - just little jogs around the half way line usually - but when he got into the final third he came alive, always looking to find that extra half yard of space, anticipating a cross or through ball.  Absolute genius.  Poachers are not team players - they're employed to score goals and nothing else, which is exactly what Lineker did that day.  They just want the ball fed to them in a dangerous area.  They're at the top of the pyramid - the rest of the team is there to give them the ball.  In modern football they're a bit of a dying breed (if not already extinct) as modern tactics tend to demand more of strikers.  You wouldn't label Cavani as an out and out Poacher for example.  Sure he may act like a Poacher on occasion but that's not the same thing.

2)  The type of player:

So which attributes may make a good Poacher?  Remember that different players with differing sets of attributes will play the same role in a different way.  But here we're looking for something specific - a Poacher.  Below I'll link the attributes from two different strikers, both with the same Current Ability (CA).  Who would you pick as a Poacher and (importantly) why?  I'll include my own thoughts below in a spoiler tab.  (BTW the highlighted attributes are not what the game highlights for a Poacher, so ignore).

dIwn8YR.png

  Hide contents

I'd pick the player on the left.  My primary considerations for a Poacher are:

Low Teamwork.  He's not a team player, he's the selfish goal moocher who'll get into the box to take a shot, not the guy who'll get into a goal scoring position and look for a team mate to pass to.

Great Anticipation and Off the Ball movement.  The Poacher needs to latch onto through balls or crosses, so good Anticipation will help him predict the pass coupled with off the ball running to help him get there.

Acceleration to help him beat his marker (usually a big centre half).

Composure and Finishing to steady himself in a high pressure environment and make an accurate shot.

So there's the challenge, hopefully you'll find it enjoyable.  I already have a couple of systems in mind which I'll discuss later, in the mean time I hope you have some fun with what can be an incredible addition to your team's line up.

Player on the right looks like an absolute donkey.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, herne79 said:

Building off the back of @Jambo98's annual formation experiment, I thought it might be fun to start a series of tactical challenges.

I have a few ideas lined up (and if anyone has any others, please let me know) and thought I'd kick things off fairly easily (I hope!) by setting a challenge centred around a role that seems to be very rarely used - the Poacher.

The Challenge

Build a (or more than one) successful system*, using a team of your choice, that includes a Poacher as your main goal scorer.  The system should be based on sound footballing principles, so no 6 strikers with lots of crazy tactical settings.

* By successful, you should aim to at least meet (better yet, exceed) both your start of season media prediction and your Board's expectations.  And your Poacher should end the season as your top goal scorer.

Before you dive in, what is a Poacher?  (which is a question we should perhaps ask ourselves before picking any role).  There are two things to understand.

1)  The in game description + default player instructions:

vnaSGFN.png

When I read this, I think of players such as Gary Lineker.  I saw him play once against my West Ham team.  We lost 3-0 and Lineker scored all 3.  He did nothing all match - just little jogs around the half way line usually - but when he got into the final third he came alive, always looking to find that extra half yard of space, anticipating a cross or through ball.  Absolute genius.  Poachers are not team players - they're employed to score goals and nothing else, which is exactly what Lineker did that day.  They just want the ball fed to them in a dangerous area.  They're at the top of the pyramid - the rest of the team is there to give them the ball.  In modern football they're a bit of a dying breed (if not already extinct) as modern tactics tend to demand more of strikers.  You wouldn't label Cavani as an out and out Poacher for example.  Sure he may act like a Poacher on occasion but that's not the same thing.

2)  The type of player:

So which attributes may make a good Poacher?  Remember that different players with differing sets of attributes will play the same role in a different way.  But here we're looking for something specific - a Poacher.  Below I'll link the attributes from two different strikers, both with the same Current Ability (CA).  Who would you pick as a Poacher and (importantly) why?  I'll include my own thoughts below in a spoiler tab.  (BTW the highlighted attributes are not what the game highlights for a Poacher, so ignore).

dIwn8YR.png

  Reveal hidden contents

I'd pick the player on the left.  My primary considerations for a Poacher are:

Low Teamwork.  He's not a team player, he's the selfish goal moocher who'll get into the box to take a shot, not the guy who'll get into a goal scoring position and look for a team mate to pass to.

Great Anticipation and Off the Ball movement.  The Poacher needs to latch onto through balls or crosses, so good Anticipation will help him predict the pass coupled with off the ball running to help him get there.

Acceleration to help him beat his marker (usually a big centre half).

Composure and Finishing to steady himself in a high pressure environment and make an accurate shot.

So there's the challenge, hopefully you'll find it enjoyable.  I already have a couple of systems in mind which I'll discuss later, in the mean time I hope you have some fun with what can be an incredible addition to your team's line up.

I reckon player on the left could be Javier Hernandez

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, FMunderachiever said:

Im gonna try the 3 stiker exploit with three poachers and hoof it to em. see what happens and if its crap, delete.

 

11 hours ago, herne79 said:

The system should be based on sound footballing principles, so no 6 strikers with lots of crazy tactical settings.

;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Definitely going to give this a go! And i'm delighted to say Timo Werner will be joining me on this journey... :D Already got a 4-4-1-1 and a 4-4-2 set up, potentially looking at a 4-3-1-2 as well. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I find it interesting you mention teamwork.  I know not all attributes are necessarily "positive" just to be higher, but tendencies, but I always considered Teamwork to be one of the ones that is only good to have more of.

Certainly a poacher can get away with less of it, since they're looking primarily for their own goals, but I figure a player with good teamwork (and combined with good decisions) will still embrace that his job as part of the unit is to score goals and still overwhelmingly look to score. Just that in the chance he notices an obviously good time to pass he will make the decision that is best for the team.

(Of course, there is the requirement to make sure he's the top goalscorer, to which low teamwork would be most ideal for that goal, even if not best for the team).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As someone who has been stuck on what to do next on FM, this challenge sounds like some good fun. I don't use poachers that much but in a recent Milan save of mine, I developed Cutrone into a pretty insane poacher and really started to appreciate the role. 

For my save, I've decided to go with my favourite team, Arsenal. I've been holding off on doing an Arsenal save with the new database because I never use the Winter Update because I feel it's unrealistic to start a save with a squad that has players who were transferred in the middle of the season. However, this challenge has given me the perfect excuse to start a save with the Winter update so that I can use record signing Aubamayeng as my poacher. I am going to try and get him atleast 30 goals in the league.

20180309123609_1.thumb.jpg.71687bbec280fff4f908952a2d8b367d.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Jordan Rhodes was an out and out poacher in his Huddersfield days at least. Never did anything of note apart from stick the ball in the net 40 times in 10/11.

Looks useless these days but he never had the pace and/or strength to play as poacher at the top level and it seems like managers have tried to change his game so he could play up top on his own and ruined him. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, herne79 said:

Yeh that's the key really in single striker formations with a Poacher - not impossible but for sure more tricky.

Agreed. I said I had trouble with single poachers, but I have had success as long as there was some sort of AMC there to help drag the central defenders. But in a formation such as a 4-1-2-2-1 (or I think most refer to this as 4-1-2-3 Wide?) with no central attacking midfielder, I had trouble since the center backs could more easily maintain position and corral the poacher. Add the AMC to the formation, and now the center backs are stepping up to close him down and the poacher gets the space he needs to poach.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
36 minutes ago, onionbag said:

Agreed. I said I had trouble with single poachers, but I have had success as long as there was some sort of AMC there to help drag the central defenders. But in a formation such as a 4-1-2-2-1 (or I think most refer to this as 4-1-2-3 Wide?) with no central attacking midfielder, I had trouble since the center backs could more easily maintain position and corral the poacher. Add the AMC to the formation, and now the center backs are stepping up to close him down and the poacher gets the space he needs to poach.

It is still not impossible. You just need to make sure your team doesn't play the ball to your poacher too early or otherwise he will be fighting for headers or trying to make something himself against several defenders - a fight that he is likely to lose. Just need to make sure that the midfielders push up quickly to support the poacher. Possibly having a playmaker in one of the AMR/L positions so the play goes out wide first before the playmaker on oncoming midfielders look for a through ball.

I guess the key is to get the ball to your more advanced midfielders and wide players and make them feed the poacher. Shorter passing from the back, and more through balls from the advanced players could work.

Oh, and most people refer to it as 4-3-3 or 4-5-1, the game shows the formation as 4-1-2-3 wide, and 4-1-2-2-1 is only used by FM weirdos who want to be overly clever and do not know standard notations in football =)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, juusal said:

 is only used by FM weirdos who want to be overly clever and do not know standard notations in football =)

Didn't I just use that notation? If I read between the lines.... hey! :)

In my current save I am using a TM (A) on the right and a Poacher on the left. They link very well, and particularly satisfying are the nice cushioned headers from the TM, to the Poacher's feet and bang!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, onionbag said:

Didn't I just use that notation? If I read between the lines.... hey! :)

In my current save I am using a TM (A) on the right and a Poacher on the left. They link very well, and particularly satisfying are the nice cushioned headers from the TM, to the Poacher's feet and bang!

Hehe =)

 

Ah the classic small man big man combo! Is it 1980 in Scotland again?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok so decided to spend a bit of time on this today in between bits of work. 

What do i look for in a poacher

Well, this is probably similar to most. The key things i look for are:

  • Finishing - Rather obvious, but no point in all the others if you dont have this. If you get in all the right places, then sky it, no good
  • Composure - Heavily linked to the above, and with the nature of the chances I expect to fall to a Poacher, this is ever important
  • Anticipation - I think this one is really key. A poach has to anticipate the action around him to be ready to pounce on things like second balls and rebounds, cut backs et al 
  • Off the Ball - Linked to Anticipation - as well as being ready to react quickly, you need to get into a place to react in the first place
  • Heading - More of a nice to have than essential, but given that many chances "in the box" involve the ball being in the air, someone adept at headed finishing will help 
  • Player Traits  - A less appreciated aspect, but there are some real positives and real negatives to be found in this area 

My Ideal Poacher

This guy probably 

b764dd9c8b8f6c01f6d4b37ba79765de.png

Alas, I plan to manage a good but not top side here for this so will not be getting the pleasure of this chap banging in 49 goals a season for me (as he did in the poacher role for me in another save)

My Chosen Poacher(s)

86d81b1164e87cbc83b1e3846e0ab94d.png

This guy ticks most of the boxes for me and is my first choice. I am playing at a top 4 club in a top 5 european league, but not one with the rep or resources to attract real world class players, so there is a need to compromise somewhat. This fella  has 14 - 16 for all the things i look for, also as a bonus has very good acceleration and low teamwork.  His only player trait is one i think could be a positive, albeit i confess i have never looked at how this one manifests itself in the ME - but the principle of a poacher getting a shot off early can only be positive. 

15a9ced696dbc1702f0c64fc9d9ff98e.png

This is my backup / rotation / 2nd choice poacher. His anticipation is lower than i would like, but i chose him mainly because i am intrigued by the player trait "Static Target Man" - Obviously the name immediately makes you think TM not P, but iirc this very same trait was previously known as "stays in side the opposing box" or "Penalty Box Player" (I could be wrong on that). Either way, an individual player trait should not influence how the rest of the team chooses to feed him, so i am really curious as to how he will play out. 


The Roles and Duties 

Here is my opening gambit for how i will distribute formation, roles and duties to support and supply my Poacher:

6a7a8c6e35cd03ccfffab9d23181c62f.png

 

I have gone for a variant of 442. Up front rather than "big man / small man" i have gone for "creator / scorer". 

Alongside the poacher is a F9, who will drop deep to collect the ball, drag defenders out and help create space for the poacher. He will also (hopefully) supply through balls for the poacher as well as being a second body in the box to keep the defence busy on crosses.

On the wings i have gone for varied supply. The winger will ping crosses all day long, the IW will cut in and provide support and through balls / one twos etc. I am keeping the fullback roles behind them both the same for now. The way the players ahead function, and the different player types i use will give the variation there rather than needing any role or duty changes

In the middle i have 2 DMs, but both attack minded. I love the Segundo Volante role and an attack duty gets him right up there in and around the strikers, feeding them and feeding off them - remember my team needs to succeed here, not just the poacher. The RPM alongside i might tinker with, but he will supply balls from deep to both strikers and the winger. Although both roles and duties are quite aggresive, the formation means they will also provide good defensive cover.

At the back i have been playing around with ST / Co lately and liking what i see. I wanted to include a BPD to ping the odd long one for the poacher to get in behind. Probably ideally he would be the Cover DC, but player types mean it was better to put him in the Stopper role. 

 

Run out of time on write up, but more later!

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, herne79 said:

Overall then 5 goals for my Poacher is a fantastic start, but a long way to go yet.

I'd be tempted to call it a day there. Job done!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@herne79 gonna be cool to see how we both go using Aubameyang at different teams! That 5 goals against Bayern is insane!

I managed to beat City 6-0 with an Aubameyang hat trick (similar situation with Pep pressing high up the pitch and using complete wingbacks).

Capture.PNG.35bbdf6e00185fc3c3aca84273369080.PNG

And funnily enough I was also using a 4411.

Only just looked at the stats of the match and I don't think I've ever dominated such a good team so convincingly in terms of shots and chances created:

5aa2dab575ce4_ars6-0manc.thumb.PNG.da19167e1b34bee58d780bd0e3bd45e1.PNGshots.thumb.PNG.1b2af2043b90338261ba6a76497342a9.PNG

Aubameyang's shots:

5aa2dab6511a5_PAEshots.PNG.72c47fa888e3967737abaa3704e00ed2.PNG

Edited by NabsKebabs

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As you said, Chicha has the perfect attributes for a poacher, and was absolutely lethal for me in my 3rd season, but he needs service! Had a shadow striker behind him to open up space and play him through, with two wide-midfielders looking to cross the ball low to him.

Chicha.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, juusal said:

Oh, and most people refer to it as 4-3-3 or 4-5-1, the game shows the formation as 4-1-2-3 wide, and 4-1-2-2-1 is only used by FM weirdos who want to be overly clever and do not know standard notations in football =)

I resemble this remark!!!

(I have definitely run into confusion talking with more seasoned football veterans haha)

 

Damn 5 goals with the poacher to start!?  /clap

Edited by alanschu14

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, yonko said:

@herne79 

Do you have any videos you can post of his 5 goals vs Bayern?

I'll have a look but the last time I tried to upload an FM18 clip it bugged out.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Love this idea, hopefully it's the first of many! I'll try a big man - little man combo myself, with crosses coming in through the wings.

image.thumb.png.d00869372047def454d1400d64153913.png

image.thumb.png.1e5163be38a2b52d8ded1b146f0ec925.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, Jambo98 said:

Ok so decided to spend a bit of time on this today in between bits of work. 

What do i look for in a poacher

Well, this is probably similar to most. The key things i look for are:

  • Finishing - Rather obvious, but no point in all the others if you dont have this. If you get in all the right places, then sky it, no good
  • Composure - Heavily linked to the above, and with the nature of the chances I expect to fall to a Poacher, this is ever important
  • Anticipation - I think this one is really key. A poach has to anticipate the action around him to be ready to pounce on things like second balls and rebounds, cut backs et al 
  • Off the Ball - Linked to Anticipation - as well as being ready to react quickly, you need to get into a place to react in the first place
  • Heading - More of a nice to have than essential, but given that many chances "in the box" involve the ball being in the air, someone adept at headed finishing will help 
  • Player Traits  - A less appreciated aspect, but there are some real positives and real negatives to be found in this area 

My Ideal Poacher

This guy probably 

b764dd9c8b8f6c01f6d4b37ba79765de.png

Alas, I plan to manage a good but not top side here for this so will not be getting the pleasure of this chap banging in 49 goals a season for me (as he did in the poacher role for me in another save)

My Chosen Poacher(s)

86d81b1164e87cbc83b1e3846e0ab94d.png

This guy ticks most of the boxes for me and is my first choice. I am playing at a top 4 club in a top 5 european league, but not one with the rep or resources to attract real world class players, so there is a need to compromise somewhat. This fella  has 14 - 16 for all the things i look for, also as a bonus has very good acceleration and low teamwork.  His only player trait is one i think could be a positive, albeit i confess i have never looked at how this one manifests itself in the ME - but the principle of a poacher getting a shot off early can only be positive. 

15a9ced696dbc1702f0c64fc9d9ff98e.png

This is my backup / rotation / 2nd choice poacher. His anticipation is lower than i would like, but i chose him mainly because i am intrigued by the player trait "Static Target Man" - Obviously the name immediately makes you think TM not P, but iirc this very same trait was previously known as "stays in side the opposing box" or "Penalty Box Player" (I could be wrong on that). Either way, an individual player trait should not influence how the rest of the team chooses to feed him, so i am really curious as to how he will play out. 


The Roles and Duties 

Here is my opening gambit for how i will distribute formation, roles and duties to support and supply my Poacher:

6a7a8c6e35cd03ccfffab9d23181c62f.png

 

I have gone for a variant of 442. Up front rather than "big man / small man" i have gone for "creator / scorer". 

Alongside the poacher is a F9, who will drop deep to collect the ball, drag defenders out and help create space for the poacher. He will also (hopefully) supply through balls for the poacher as well as being a second body in the box to keep the defence busy on crosses.

On the wings i have gone for varied supply. The winger will ping crosses all day long, the IW will cut in and provide support and through balls / one twos etc. I am keeping the fullback roles behind them both the same for now. The way the players ahead function, and the different player types i use will give the variation there rather than needing any role or duty changes

In the middle i have 2 DMs, but both attack minded. I love the Segundo Volante role and an attack duty gets him right up there in and around the strikers, feeding them and feeding off them - remember my team needs to succeed here, not just the poacher. The RPM alongside i might tinker with, but he will supply balls from deep to both strikers and the winger. Although both roles and duties are quite aggresive, the formation means they will also provide good defensive cover.

At the back i have been playing around with ST / Co lately and liking what i see. I wanted to include a BPD to ping the odd long one for the poacher to get in behind. Probably ideally he would be the Cover DC, but player types mean it was better to put him in the Stopper role. 

 

Run out of time on write up, but more later!

 

The "TRIES FIRST TIME SHOTS" is useful for when the wingers get to the byline and do a pull back. 

The "STATIC TARGET MAN" is definitely the old "PENALTY BOX PLAYER".

 

So in my Roma save i have set up a formations with a poacher trying to recreate the Totti/Montella/Batistuta partnership. I have a 33 year old Messi and a 19 year old D'Amico in the Totti role and Cavani in the Montella/Batigol role with a 19 year old striker with blistering pace and finishing with "beats the line" ppm.

 

At the moment its set up as

cb cb

wb dm wb

cm cm

am

cf cf

its going ok but could be better, i need to decide if sitting deeper allowing them to push up on me if they would of course would be better. OR going as i am on attacking mentality  and making my "poacher" a box "poacher" ala Van Nistelrooy. 

 

As for great Poachers I will add to the list:

 

Montella

Fowler

Romario

three of my favorite number 9s of all time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 hours ago, juusal said:

Ah the classic small man big man combo! Is it 1980 in Scotland again?

Your assumptions seem to be :)

No big man. The TM is 6 feet, and has jumping and heading of 12 (Stefan Payne). As a TM of course, he gets alot of balls played in to him, many in the air, and he gets his head to a fair few. I like the TM combo alongside a poacher, because then the side is less likely to look for the poacher as the outlet, he's the second man, and that leaves him free to do what poachers do. Alongside a TM he doesn't need to create, or link or provide an outlet. He just ghosts around the box looking for throughballs square balls, knockdowns and second balls. The cushioned header is a perfect example of this. the winger or central mid plays a lofted ball in to the box, the TM knocks it down and the poacher uses his anticipation and OTB to be in the right place and smashes it home.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

https://www.theanfieldwrap.com/2017/11/liverpools-facilitator-poacher-firmino-salah-forming-perfect-partnership/

While reading this article, got inspired to experiment with a classic 4-4-2 for Liverpool. Salah as poacher and Firmino as a deeplying forward "facilitator". Its bound to be interesting because both players are probably the best examples of each role at the start of the game, a perfect partnership. And they are both 25 y.o so would like to see how much hardware we can win in 5 years while they are at the top of their game. 

 

170812-190-Watford_Liverpool.jpg

Edited by crusadertsar

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Feeding the Beast

This thread isn't just about the Poacher.  You can have the best Poacher in the world but unless he's supplied effectively he won't do his job - which is scoring goals.

So how to set that up?  There are many different ways and will largely depend on the style of football you want to play and the personnel you have available.  Here's what onionbag says above:

3 hours ago, onionbag said:

I like the TM combo alongside a poacher, because then the side is less likely to look for the poacher as the outlet, he's the second man, and that leaves him free to do what poachers do. Alongside a TM he doesn't need to create, or link or provide an outlet. He just ghosts around the box looking for throughballs square balls, knockdowns and second balls. The cushioned header is a perfect example of this. the winger or central mid plays a lofted ball in to the box, the TM knocks it down and the poacher uses his anticipation and OTB to be in the right place and smashes it home.

Absolutely spot on, the classic Target Man / Poacher combo and if I were playing, say, West Ham then Hernandez / Carroll could be an awesome duo.

But I'm not West Ham, I'm Dortmund, and if there is one thing that Dortmund lacks it's a Target Man.  So I'm choosing a different way - creativity and variety.  Have a look at my assists locations from the last 15 matches:

aZSWHLE.png

Assists primarily though the centre, but still options from out wide as well.

I've mainly been playing my 4-4-2 set up above (with the odd switch to a 4-2-3-1).  That 4-4-2 is all about options and variety:

- A Trequartista as the #10 playmaker who'll get into dangerous positions and play killer through balls;

- An attacking left wide midfielder as a kind of inside forward / raumdeuter hybrid (depending on who I play there) who'll work the channels / dribble at the defence and make crosses or through balls;

- A supporting right wide midfielder who behaves more like a winger, primarily focused on crossing but again depends on who I play there (I'm actually using Whipped Crosses to take advantage of PEA's pace);

- A B2B through the centre who also has great technical ability (Weigl / Sahin) and PPMs you may more usually associate with a Deep Lying Playmaker;

- An attacking fullback who will also make use of crosses, but typically earlier crosses from deeper positions which gives a different angle of attack.

My tactical instructions are pretty neutral - Standard / Structured, Shorter Passing, Push Higher Up, Close Down More, Dribble Less, Whipped Crosses.  A few PIs as well, mainly to change how each Wide Midfielder plays.  (I've written about most of that before in the Developing my 4-4-2 Thread so I won't go into detail again).

Lots of variety, therefore if one route of attack is shut down we have other options to try.  So far this season my TQs (Gotze as main, Kagawa as backup) have helped themselves to 18 assists.  My 4 wide midfielders (who I play in a variety of roles to give me alternative options for how the roles play out) have 19 assists.  PEA has scored 27 goals so far, and I'm not yet at Christmas.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, herne79 said:

Feeding the Beast

This thread isn't just about the Poacher.  You can have the best Poacher in the world but unless he's supplied effectively he won't do his job - which is scoring goals.

So how to set that up?  There are many different ways and will largely depend on the style of football you want to play and the personnel you have available.  Here's what onionbag says above:

Absolutely spot on, the classic Target Man / Poacher combo and if I were playing, say, West Ham then Hernandez / Carroll could be an awesome duo.

But I'm not West Ham, I'm Dortmund, and if there is one thing that Dortmund lacks it's a Target Man.  So I'm choosing a different way - creativity and variety.  Have a look at my assists locations from the last 15 matches:

aZSWHLE.png

Assists primarily though the centre, but still options from out wide as well.

I've mainly been playing my 4-4-2 set up above (with the odd switch to a 4-2-3-1).  That 4-4-2 is all about options and variety:

- A Trequartista as the #10 playmaker who'll get into dangerous positions and play killer through balls;

- An attacking left wide midfielder as a kind of inside forward / raumdeuter hybrid (depending on who I play there) who'll work the channels / dribble at the defence and make crosses or through balls;

- A supporting right wide midfielder who behaves more like a winger, primarily focused on crossing but again depends on who I play there (I'm actually using Whipped Crosses to take advantage of PEA's pace);

- A B2B through the centre who also has great technical ability (Weigl / Sahin) and PPMs you may more usually associate with a Deep Lying Playmaker;

- An attacking fullback who will also make use of crosses, but typically earlier crosses from deeper positions which gives a different angle of attack.

My tactical instructions are pretty neutral - Standard / Structured, Shorter Passing, Push Higher Up, Close Down More, Dribble Less, Whipped Crosses.  A few PIs as well, mainly to change how each Wide Midfielder plays.  (I've written about most of that before in the Developing my 4-4-2 Thread so I won't go into detail again).

Lots of variety, therefore if one route of attack is shut down we have other options to try.  So far this season my TQs (Gotze as main, Kagawa as backup) have helped themselves to 18 assists.  My 4 wide midfielders (who I play in a variety of roles to give me alternative options for how the roles play out) have 19 assists.  PEA has scored 27 goals so far, and I'm not yet at Christmas.

I think you could perhaps use Schurle and Aubameyang as a pairing as defensive forward and poacher.

Not that you need to change anything if youre winning 5-0 v Bayern though

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@herne79

I like the variety you write about. But I'm curious why so few assist from the left side compared to the other zones? Is it because the TQ is on the right hand side and attracts the ball there more? The LM is more selfish player? What would happen if your WB-S was instructed to cross more often and to the near post, aiming for the Poacher? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@herne79From your experience does the trequartista in striker position drop back far enough to draw the defenders out and make space for the poacher? I'm hesitating between which role to give Firmino. DLF, False9 or Trequartista? Or maybe even Targetman with PIs for more creative freedom? I want him to have full freedom in order to create space for Salah beside him, sorta like is described in the article above.

"...Firmino is about so much more than simply sticking the ball in the back of the net — even if that is conventionally seen as the primary job of a centre forward. Firmino consistently displays intelligent movement, pulling defenders into zones they don’t want to be, opens up spaces for his teammates to exploit. He also directly created 76 chances last season, bettered only by Lionel Messi (78) and more than double the likes of Cristiano Ronaldo and Robert Lewandowski (both 30).

His off-the-ball numbers last season showed his exceptional defensive contribution in making 41 tackles, which is considerably more than any other forward in Europe and more even than top level Premier League centre backs such as Gary Cahill (40) and Jan Vertonghen (33). His interception and aerial duel stats also mark him out as unique in comparison to any other forward on the continent, all of which is essential to his function in Liverpool’s counter-pressing system."

Sounds almost like he is the side's primary playmaker. I do not want to stick him in the attacking midfield position though. As a striker, I visualize him working really hard, dropping very deep almost into midfield or drifting to sides, or move into channels vertically, etc. Basically  being unpredictable roaming thorn in the side defenses. So also in a way he needs to be a play-maker so most attacks are channeled through him and then to the poacher. Maybe I should set him as Targetman (he has decent jumping) with roam more and move into channels selected

Edited by crusadertsar

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
28 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

Maybe I should set him as Targetman (he has decent jumping) with roam more and move into channels selected

It's worth a shot. Juusal made the quip about 1980s Scotland, but I think we need to see a target man as more than the traditional behemoth there to collect high balls. For me, in FM anyway, the target man is exactly that-- the target for the balls played to the strikers. But that can be done with low balls too. As mentioned my TM is a player called Stefan Payne. He's a good all-round player, but with no exceptional traits. Many of his attributes are around 12-14 with jumping and heading at 12. I don't see him as the second coming of Luca Toni. I just want HIM to be the one the deeper players send the ball forward to, or cross to, whether it's in the air or not.

Edited by onionbag

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...