ME loophole

[Svenc]

27 minutes ago, Loversleaper said:

Svenc - quite an amazing screenshot and must admit I haven't rally seen anything like that (especially if that happened only after 46 minutes of the game). What are the details/circumstances surrounding that game, if I may ask?

This is going to be a bit long, Loversleaper. This was naturally taken off such  a "super tactic", already argued that I have experience. The ones from last year that exploited how the wide midfielders defended. They sat out wide (exclamation mark) and didn't much help the central midfielders, so the central zones were easily overloaded. Those tactics all played super narrow to exploit this, but could come badly unstuck if an AI plugged the middle a few. For instance, with a back five plus a few CMs/DMs shielding in front of them. The central midfielders could still be dragged all over the pitch some -- but with 3 central defenders there's at least a spare man to cover. Naturally, as would happen playing super narrow on a football pitch too, the players were ridiculously easily crowded out and pushed or fouled for rushed attempts and set pieces, plus deflections for a corner. Marked red is basically the "zone" the defenders have to mark. As everybody is kept so narrow, and also pushed up, it's ridiculously small. Whoever receives the ball next is immediately under pressure, as defenders simply have no distance to run to get to the next man.

Part of the flaw with FM here is, AI is just not smart. This happens purely by chance -- and research. Every AI manager has several formations edited into his profile he's likely to use, for instance. Most AI is simply exploited over and over. You may agree with me that if a side ever played this extreme in football, every single opponent would just sit deep and do the same to them. So, if you're unlucky, this can happen at the worst possible moments. The irony is, should the AI concede a 1-0, it may open up. AI reacts to goals it concedes, or it would lose the match. So the same match can either end in such brutal stalemates, or in a 6-0 whopping. In league matches, point drops may not matter much. In knock-out competitions meanwhile...

You may point out those curious shot volumes, and you are right. Arguably such shot volumes shouldn't happen. To me this in parts has to do with that the closing down is quick enough to pressure the ball carrier. However not quick enough to stop a few shots from happening altogether. The most extremes have been those 60 shots no goals matches.... this is never due to there being much quality shots in there. If FM has it accurate, you have to take into account that even some of the biggest open play chances are at best roughly 40/60 or 50/50 chances. In other words, they are missed too. Naturally, the game flags the forwards "frustrated" from so many misses quite quickly, which can further impact a little.

This is all a big part of the reason why I'm for an FAQ here in the download sections. Again, not to scare people away, or lessen the testing work that goes into it all. Nor to claim this would be an inferior way of playing, or anything. But the drawbacks are pretty obvious, and they've apparently been the exact same ever since lord knows how many releases. As Rashidi points out, the 3 central forwards can be defended some too -- and AI is able to do it likewise on occasion. At least, some.

[Loversleaper]

6 minutes ago, Svenc said:

This was naturally taken off such  a "super tactic", already argued that I have experience.

So, what you are saying basically is that the screenshot is from a created 'super tactic' that you used in a match in FM 2018 and you produced those match stats (and in 46 minutes of game time)? I am trying to paint a picture here.

[Svenc]

4 minutes ago, Loversleaper said:

So, what you are saying basically is that the screenshot is from a created 'super tactic' that you used in a match in FM 2018 and you produced those match stats (and in 46 minutes of game time)? I am trying to paint a picture here.

The 46 minutes mark is a bit confusing, that was due to rewinding to a highlight. That was full match stats, sorry. And in this case FM17. What I am saying is this:

If you try to break the match engine/exploit the AI, no matter the release, random crap can and will happen at any given minute. In particular if you don't understand your own exploit (which, from experience, even the more popular providers oft don't). And that's naturally just in the matches.
 

[Loversleaper]

1 minute ago, Svenc said:

The 46 minutes mark is a bit confusing, that was due to rewinding to a highlight. That was full match stats, and in this case FM17. What I am saying this:

If you try to break the match engine/exploit the AI, no matter the release, random crap can and will happen at any given minute. In particular if you don't understand your own exploit (which, from experience, even the more popular providers oft don't). And that's naturally just in the matches.
 

FM 17 was really short lived in my case and that's kind of why I asked about the circumstances surrounding that screenshot. Balancing the AI decision making is a weird one - where do you kind of draw the line between being too hard or too easy. You can please some people some times but you can't please all the people all the time - as good old Bob would say.

 

 

[Loversleaper]

45 minutes ago, Svenc said:

You may point out those curious shot volumes, and you are right. Arguably such shot volumes shouldn't happen. To me this in parts has to do with that the closing down is quick enough to pressure the ball carrier. However not quick enough to stop a few shots from happening altogether. The most extremes have been those 60 shots no goals matches.... this is never due to there being much quality shots in there. If FM has it accurate, you have to take into account that even some of the biggest open play chances are at best roughly 40/60 or 50/50 chances. In other words, they are missed too. Naturally, the game flags the forwards "frustrated" from so many misses quite quickly, which can further impact a little.

This is all a big part of the reason why I'm for an FAQ here in the download sections. Again, not to scare people away, or lessen the testing work that goes into it all. Nor to claim this would be an inferior way of playing, or anything. But the drawbacks are pretty obvious, and they've apparently been the exact same ever since lord knows how many releases. As Rashidi points out, the 3 central forwards can be defended some too -- and AI is able to do it likewise on occasion. At least, some.

Compared to FM 17 - I, personally, feel that the AI decision making this time has become slightly better which was really needed, because as you are pointing out, that is one of the main reasons behind some of the issues you are addressing (and good on you for that). One of the main issues I have in this version of FM is, strangely enough, surrounding the Set-Pieces reality where they (your players) get jumbled up during the game and causes quite a lot of havoc if you are not aware of the fact that positions get shifted around (or left open). It's not a huge one and will be time consuming to fix during matches, but if you are not paying attention at all you might get punished freakishly...

[Svenc]

13 minutes ago, Loversleaper said:

FM 17 was really short lived in my case and that's kind of why I asked about the circumstances surrounding that screenshot. Balancing the AI decision making is a weird one - where do you kind of draw the line between being too hard or too easy. You can please some people some times but you can't please all the people all the time - as good old Bob would say.

Good point. My personal stance has always been that it's the engine code itself that needs to balance this. No matter if it's the three forwards, those central midfields easily overloaded on FM17 in most formations, the flanks being free for all on FM16 -- this is space gifted to players and to be exploited that on a football pitch would not exist. There's been a long-term complaint around some quarters that on FM, "tactics would/could be too influential or too important". And to a degree, in particular if approached that way, that is totally true. I'd be really curious though how the reaction was if tactics in FM would really do no less or more than in football long-term. Tactics certainly don't cause player quality, transfers and development  to be almost irrelevant... which such an exploit does.

[alanschu14]

5 minutes ago, Svenc said:

I'd be really curious though how the reaction was if tactics in FM would really do no less or more than in football long-term. Tactics certainly don't cause player quality, transfers and development  to be almost irrelevant... which such an exploit does.

It's interesting because as someone that came from Eastside Hockey Manager, the minutiae of dealing with tactics was almost a huge turn off for me.  I was very much "let me manage the team roster like an NHL GM, and the coaches can do their thing." (I didn't fully appreciate the differences though.

I had to do some heavy duty research for the tactics though and it's been fun enough but it was a super rough go.  I know they recommend tactics on a game per game basis, but part of me wouldn't mind (unless I'm blind!) a way to delegate tactical decisions to assman or someone else on the primary tactics screen, so that you get tactics that the staff feel are well suited for your team for the whole season (and I'm not being recommended to play in formations by which I have zero tactical familiarity half way through the season).

[Svenc]

8 minutes ago, alanschu14 said:

I had to do some heavy duty research for the tactics though and it's been fun enough but it was a super rough go.  I know they recommend tactics on a game per game basis, but part of me wouldn't mind (unless I'm blind!) a way to delegate tactical decisions to assman or someone else on the primary tactics screen, so that you get tactics that the staff feel are well suited for your team for the whole season (and I'm not being recommended to play in formations by which I have zero tactical familiarity half way through the season).

Imo proper tactical assistants are the way forward for this in FM also. Take the match plans on FM Touch, so much untapped potential in there too. However, unlikely they would be coded to "exploit stuff" for record breaking results... which the Barca assistant on FM 16 did, btw (simply go holiday from day 1 and come back at the end of the season, he would score like 5+ goals per match for you -- always played 3 central forwards, btw). They may however allow you to focus more on the stuff you enjoy/try to be an "expert" in. There's evidence that managers delegate a few stuff in football too -- plus not every manager is known for his particularly tactically nous. Some are perceived to be successful wheeler dealers, others experts at keeping their squad motivated,... On Eastside Hockey I'd probably be lost myself.

[shizzo]

On 04/03/2018 at 20:47, DiStru_ said:

Can someone post an example of that 4-3-3? What sort of roles are being used and how do you cope with such attacking approach as a weaker team? Surely bad sides would struggle down the flanks?

asking for a friend 

[alanschu14]

33 minutes ago, Svenc said:

Imo proper tactical assistants are the way forward for this in FM also. Take the match plans on FM Touch, so much untapped potential in there too. However, unlikely they would be coded to "exploit stuff" for record breaking results... which the Barca assistant on FM 16 did, btw (simply go holiday from day 1 and come back at the end of the season, he would score like 5+ goals per match for you -- always played 3 central forwards, btw). They may however allow you to focus more on the stuff you enjoy/try to be an "expert" in. There's evidence that managers delegate a few stuff in football too -- plus not every manager is known for his particularly tactically nous. Some are perceived to be successful wheeler dealers, others experts at keeping their squad motivated,... On Eastside Hockey I'd probably be lost myself.

On the one hand, there's something fundamentally balancing by having the game use similarish tactics against each other. Though at the cost of having fun experimenting with stuff.  Fortunately I'm now reasonably proficient (thanks to many here on the forum) for understanding my tactics to the point of at least ensuring I have decent balance on the pitch and from time to time even take advantage of something I see and get the big win.

My favourite part of the game is bar none developing youth though. Giving players opportunities and seeing them grow into excellent players is my kind of jam . But that said, learning and understanding the tactical game does make me appreciate it more. I even started going to local FC Edmonton (Canada) games with a friend and I know enough about bigger league football that I have to swear at Wenger a lot for reasons I'm sure are valid but not quite certain as to why lol.

Way back in 2011 I wanted power fantasy and in that game I did exploit some tactics IIRC.  But I do agree with your general thesis in this thread that there is a genuine cost towards making sure players can't just go on a 3 forward attack for an "easy mode" in terms of the players understanding the game. Anecdotally I do think the game is more enjoyable now that I better understand what I'm doing when I set that role from a Support one to an Attacking one, for example.

[herne79]

8 hours ago, shizzo said:

asking for a friend 

Try the Tactics forum downloads section.

[Rashidi]

9 hours ago, shizzo said:

asking for a friend 

Just go to the training and tactics forum or check on youtube, quite a number of us have put up videos as well, including myself.

[LCpl]

18 hours ago, RBKalle said:

The moment such a huge flaw can easily and unintentionally be exploited, the whole learning curve goes out of the window and you can have plenty of completely "inept" players winning  everything and thinking they're awesome, while in truth they've merely discovered a real time editor

Another reason, aside from three narrow strikers on a pitch being completely unrealistic, is that almost everything else on the forum is subject to the taint of editing. Whether it be score-lines, tactics, records or even player performances and best regens, it's been a long time since such examples or shares were free from a strong suspicion of manipulation.

[Toonrock]

On ‎04‎-‎03‎-‎2018 at 21:47, DiStru_ said:

Can someone post an example of that 4-3-3? What sort of roles are being used

The formation consists of:   3 lazy Fishermen and 7 hard-working football players

[Rashidi]

30 minutes ago, LCpl said:

Another reason, aside from three narrow strikers on a pitch being completely unrealistic, is that almost everything else on the forum is subject to the taint of editing. Whether it be score-lines, tactics, records or even player performances and best regens, it's been a long time since such examples or shares were free from a strong suspicion of manipulation.

Agreed I have yet to see a proper test of a so called manipulative tactic that runs a holiday test for a few seasons, using generated players. For me to take these assertions seriously they need to show they have acted as managers who merely sign players and leave the assman to play the tactic on its own. A 10 game winning run is hardly cause for someone to come out and say its manipulative.

[Svenc]

11 hours ago, alanschu14 said:

Way back in 2011 I wanted power fantasy and in that game I did exploit some tactics IIRC.  But I do agree with your general thesis in this thread that there is a genuine cost towards making sure players can't just go on a 3 forward attack for an "easy mode" in terms of the players understanding the game. Anecdotally I do think the game is more enjoyable now that I better understand what I'm doing when I set that role from a Support one to an Attacking one, for example.

Reminds me of on old RPG game of the 90s. It had turn based combat, and being in my early teens, I didn't really understand it at the start.... it looked complicated, and I wasn't all that interested --  all the movement points, the hit dice, bla bla bla. There was a nice option on every combat sequence to let the computer calculate the entire combat in like 20 seconds. To an extent, that is a bit like what the assistant managers currently can do already if you holiday, etc.. Initially I played that game exclusively like that, and solely enjoyed the exploration, the quests, and dungeons and stuff. Only later I sat down with the manual a bit to tinker, and from then I didn't turn back. It's naturally preference. I think any game is richer if you develop a bit of an understanding of it. Why you may get a particular kind of result, why the players perform the way they do in FM, etc. Breaking the game breaks all of those links. There is no understanding gained, as goals will be there no matter what.

I think you brought up a good point here, which is the "micro" and the "Macro" aspects of tactics. I think that is what a tactical assistant proper could do, too. For instance, you making the decision what roughly kind of football to play. Or what result to target in a specific match: "Target a draw, a stalemate, a big convincing win, simply not to get humiliated". Perhaps in-match also giving him orders to "play for another goal" or "protect what we have". And the assistant would put that all into action. The macro could be yours, the micro, "minutae details" to carry it all out the assistant. To an extent, this is already impleneted in the FM Touch Mathc Plans. But it's simplistic, and has never been very much expanded. It would arguably also need improved AI.. and improved AI long-term SI hopefully develop anyways.

1 hour ago, Rashidi said:

Agreed I have yet to see a proper test of a so called manipulative tactic that runs a holiday test for a few seasons, using generated players. For me to take these assertions seriously they need to show they have acted as managers who merely sign players and leave the assman to play the tactic on its own. A 10 game winning run is hardly cause for someone to come out and say its manipulative.

You can download the most popular tactics every year to check yourself. They vastly overperform and break all records even if you don't make any substitutes or anything. I'm personally on text commentary, max xpeed, not doing a thing. Still happening. Players don't matter. Scoring at least 3 goals average with crap teams is the norm (oddly, complaints about "broken finishing" you find even amongst in such threads) . Nothing much matters. As said, I don't suscribe to the notion that this would be "easy mode". It's "Break the game" mode. Which is 100%  fine, in particular for fantasy saves -- but there is a few drawbacks and inherently randomness/frustration and nonsensicals to this when you do such, which seems rarely understood / anticipated. Only a few former mods seemed to really "get it". @Cleon seemed around such discussions too.

[Rashidi]

On 3/5/2018 at 04:47, DiStru_ said:

Can someone post an example of that 4-3-3? What sort of roles are being used and how do you cope with such attacking approach as a weaker team? Surely bad sides would struggle down the flanks?

Alright I have one system at this point of the video I was using my strikers in a narrow pattern. this is not a 433, but uses the same attacking patterns. Mine however don't deploy them as 3 AFs

When I noticed that Barca were playing with attacking wingbacks in an attempt to get the equaliser we switched to a straight 3 man attack here:

I have linked the points in the video at exactly the points where we either look like we are taking advantage or not. Here my plan was simple, if Barca were going to play with attacking wingbacks I was going to punish them and take the risk of being hit myself. Our defensive instructions were solid enough not to feel any pressure.

@Svenc

After this match, I believe I may have settled on a crazy ass scoring machine of a tactic, problem is...it can work both ways.

 

 

 

 

[onionbag]

Good videos, I like your style.

[Toonrock]

... 3 lazy Fishermen and 7 hard-working football players ... 

[MBarbaric]

 

 

 

 

 

1took some time to to  get through these two goals. First, we have a 4-3-3 (blue) against 3-4-3 (red) . None of 3 red attackers drops deep to help the team in build-up which should hamper the red team theoretically as they are already in 3v2 disadvantage in the central corridor.

Above you can see the ball on the left side with the blue team controlling the middle with 4 players against only 1 red. For some reason it is the blue left winger (#14) that was pressing red #6 and proceded to press #5. While it is unusual it isn't unheard of. However, the blue team completely fails to shift towards the ball and continue to mark the center of the pitch where they have 4v1 advantage while the right flank is completely unprotected. Once the ball is passed to the red #26, the blue full back needs to step out of the back line and cover since all the central midfielders and the winger are in the central corridor.

As blue #7 stays central and full back #19 closes down, a huge gap appears in the channel and the red team quickly goes from 4v1 advantage into 3v3 disadvantage where the red score. 

The second example above shows the blue team in 3v2 advantage on the flank but despite that the red team is able to keep the possession.

Here we see them safely transferring the ball through the middle despite the 4v2 disadvantage. Despite having less players they reach the left flank and ping a delightful ball towards the weak flank where red #28 cuts inside and crosses for another goal.

If you pay attention, you will see that 3 red strikers never participate in play and they all stay high occupying the blue back line. This, somehow, doesn't hamper the build-up despite the blue team having twie the numbers in the central zone. To me, it says the defending team in the central zone is either instructed to let the opposition control the possession, or there's something wrong with their aggression, closing down, pressure...

Even more disturbing is the first goal conceded where the defending team doesn't do anything to protect the flank despite numbers to do so relatively easily.

@Rashidi "When I noticed that Barca were playing with attacking wingbacks in an attempt to get the equaliser we switched to a straight 3 man attack here:"  I wonder, how does exactly this tactic exploit attacking wingbacks? in both examples they are in position. As I see it, the reason for both goals isn't the exploitation of the attacking wingbacks, but a) poor defensive behaviour in first example where the team fails to shift ball side and b) inability of the defensive team to pressure the red team in the center despite having the numbers.

[Svenc]

42 minutes ago, Toonrock said:

... 3 lazy Fishermen and 7 hard-working football players ... 

The "fisherman's friend" never fails to crack me up. But making a graphic out of it, I'm in tears. Just wanted to post a thanks.
Btw, on FM2015 before the first patch, you could have up to "8 fishermen". All the advanced players (2x AMRL+3xAMC+3xFWD)given an aggressive duty would love to hug the halfway line. For a change in narrative, the forums were flooded not with "strikers are useless" posts. But "keepers and defenders were useless" posts. Every second attack -- on both ends of the pitch -- was a goal. Wonder why.

[Rashidi]

15 minutes ago, MBarbaric said:

I wonder, how does exactly this tactic exploit attacking wingbacks? in both examples they are in position

It specifically exploits a counter press. My players should already be in attacking positions, so when the AI shifts into attack its wingbacks will spring forward, if we win the ball at the right time I rip into their flanks. And in every example you have shown I am forcing them to overload, so they commit more against my team which has players in position to recirculate the ball.  So here, whenever it plays a wingback I win. I remember a match I played against Sheffield United with Kingstonian, we weren't using the same tactic, instead a 4123, here my IWB waited to be closed down by the Wingback, the moment he did, he released the ball to the Winger on attack on the same flank to deliver a cross.

I wanted to play these matches this way more as a means to show people how it can be done, and what I would do defend their vulnerabilities. Funny thing, I give this tactic to Kingstonian and they are very "holey".

[Rashidi]

5 minutes ago, Svenc said:

The "fisherman's friend" never fails to crack me up. But making a graphic out of it, I'm in tears. Just wanted to post a thanks.

As you can see from your screenshot, this system has vulnerabilities if one exploits my undefended flanks

[Svenc]

23 minutes ago, Rashidi said:

As you can see from your screenshot, this system has vulnerabilities if one exploits my undefended flanks

I agree! Which is also where part of the rage quits come from on fansites dominated by such tactics. They are simply getting mass downloaded, and both users and their creators then attribute it to a "crappy game", "that's just FM", when an opposition completely tears them a new one down the flanks. As only happens by "chance", as AI is not smart. But when it happens...This was mostly just a honest appreciation of the inventiveness at display. I love that name given to the "3 forwards just hanging there waiting for the ball to be hoofed their ways" kind of behavior.

edit: Here is a pretty decent explanation of the generally exploitive nature of it all (against most standard AI approaches either way). https://www.fmscout.com/a-unstoppable-attacking-fm18-tactic.html

[shirajzl]

People seem to question the validity of "3 up front OP" claims. I don't need more proof than my own save, where I just plugged in one of the downloadable tactics (343 formation) and signed pacey players (which is OP in itself, but that's a story for another day).

In my first PL season when I finished 12th, I literally had League 1 players, because my reputation hadn't caught up. The first title win came with a mixture of  top Championship/lower PL players.

 

Edit: This just in. CL final.

 

[MBarbaric]

3 ore fa, Rashidi ha scritto:

It specifically exploits a counter press. My players should already be in attacking positions, so when the AI shifts into attack its wingbacks will spring forward, if we win the ball at the right time I rip into their flanks. And in every example you have shown I am forcing them to overload, so they commit more against my team which has players in position to recirculate the ball.  So here, whenever it plays a wingback I win. I remember a match I played against Sheffield United with Kingstonian, we weren't using the same tactic, instead a 4123, here my IWB waited to be closed down by the Wingback, the moment he did, he released the ball to the Winger on attack on the same flank to deliver a cross.

I wanted to play these matches this way more as a means to show people how it can be done, and what I would do defend their vulnerabilities. Funny thing, I give this tactic to Kingstonian and they are very "holey".

The exploit tactic posted by Svenc describes very well how this tactic exploits the counter press and three Fishermen's friends. The goals you show, though, are something else.

As you see above, they are both positional attacks. Therefore, the opposition is in their defensive shape and there is no counter attack that exploits the blue wingback being caught high up the pitch due to his role.

Therefore, we come to the second problem which isn't related to fishermen's friends camping high up the pitch. In two goals you show we have a clear example of the ME being unable to deal with the opposition in the central zone. despite numerical advantage, the defending team lets two opposition cm's dominate the middle (just look those two screenshots). The thing that happened in last few years. The ME simply doesn't penalize this style of play that in real couldn't happen apart in an off match.

The ME isn't dealing with these situations in a way a football team would. Yours, and the exploit tactic are basically the same regarding exploiting the wing backs that push high. Numerous teams do that but the problem in FM is that you are given a free ticket by the ME to leave these three strikers up the pitch. This doesn't happen in real which makes it harder to pull that kind of move in real.

The difference is that you present it as a way to deal with a real football problem while the person that did the exploit tactics clearly explains why it works and where it breaks the engine. I find disappointing that such a prominent member of the community as yourself doesn't see this. 

I don't even have a problem with Fishermen's friends  as that is an obvious flaw. I find the inability of the ME to deal with the opposition in the center more concerning because:

a) people don't see it as a flaw
b) prevents the ME from getting better

[Rashidi]

1 hour ago, MBarbaric said:

The difference is that you present it as a way to deal with a real football problem while the person that did the exploit tactics clearly explains why it works and where it breaks the engine. I find disappointing that such a prominent member of the community as yourself doesn't see this. 

The issue I have is this : What my definition of an exploit is.

If you can take the exploit tactics and make them work all or nearly all the time with the assman in charge, without you even bringing any players in, then I feel its a major me bug. However if it only does that because you found the best players you could for each position then I disagree. I never said these systems weren't strong, and I explained that we overloaded them to take advantage of the fact that wingbacks were being used. I never once said these tactics were not strong.  Yeah and I am one of those guys who sends these pkms in to the devs when I see something is an issue.

If a side that goes in with default players can overachieve with this tactic then fine. When I used the same tactic with Swansea in a holiday test they lost 18 games that season. 18. When I built the super tactics that were match engine busters, I used DEFAULT teams to do it, no signings, nothing. I just took the team and ran with the tactic. Even without the ideal players for each position they hardly even lost more than 5-8 games. This one lost 18, and believe me I have ran these holiday tests a lot. I actually set a team up give the assman the tactic and spends hours waiting to see what happens. I do believe SI are having a challenge

trying to balance the match engine with real world stats, and I do believe that there are loads of tactics out there that use 3 striker systems that take advantage of one fundamental flaw, how certain things work together to create a knock on effect. 

People are always going to look for engine busting tactics, believe me, I do it every season. And I report them. Is there a way for someone to defend against these. Yes. At the moment, this tactic of mine got wiped off the ground by City, Liverpool Arsenal, West Ham and Spurs and they all did one thing in common.  Diablo and Scramjet didn't even need you to go out and get the right players. If you are getting the right players in for the right position to create the right effect, then you are doing something the AI hasn't achieved yet. And, this will continue to happen so long as we have all these wonderful options. 

Don't get me wrong, I believe 3 striker systems are very strong. If you don't want to use them fine, but people will always find some way to create a really good tactic and go out there and win 100% of the times and therein lies the perpetual challenge we have had since 2001.

[MBarbaric]

38 minuti fa, Rashidi ha scritto:

The issue I have is this : What my definition of an exploit is.

If you can take the exploit tactics and make them work all or nearly all the time with the assman in charge, without you even bringing any players in, then I feel its a major me bug. However if it only does that because you found the best players you could for each position then I disagree. I never said these systems weren't strong, and I explained that we overloaded them to take advantage of the fact that wingbacks were being used. I never once said these tactics were not strong.  Yeah and I am one of those guys who sends these pkms in to the devs when I see something is an issue.

If a side that goes in with default players can overachieve with this tactic then fine. When I used the same tactic with Swansea in a holiday test they lost 18 games that season. 18. When I built the super tactics that were match engine busters, I used DEFAULT teams to do it, no signings, nothing. I just took the team and ran with the tactic. Even without the ideal players for each position they hardly even lost more than 5-8 games. This one lost 18, and believe me I have ran these holiday tests a lot. I actually set a team up give the assman the tactic and spends hours waiting to see what happens. I do believe SI are having a challenge

trying to balance the match engine with real world stats, and I do believe that there are loads of tactics out there that use 3 striker systems that take advantage of one fundamental flaw, how certain things work together to create a knock on effect. 

People are always going to look for engine busting tactics, believe me, I do it every season. And I report them. Is there a way for someone to defend against these. Yes. At the moment, this tactic of mine got wiped off the ground by City, Liverpool Arsenal, West Ham and Spurs and they all did one thing in common.  Diablo and Scramjet didn't even need you to go out and get the right players. If you are getting the right players in for the right position to create the right effect, then you are doing something the AI hasn't achieved yet. And, this will continue to happen so long as we have all these wonderful options. 

Don't get me wrong, I believe 3 striker systems are very strong. If you don't want to use them fine, but people will always find some way to create a really good tactic and go out there and win 100% of the times and therein lies the perpetual challenge we have had since 2001.

i really don't care about 3 striker formations or 2,4 whatever...  I don't care about people using them nor do I care about those that look for flaws to bust the engine. If anything, I appreciate these people as they help the game grow (providing the SI listens).

However, a year ago there was a huge debate about the defensive behaviour and there was so much nonsense where people defended the ME despite the obvious flaws. The same thing happens now with fishermen's friends. Personally, I hear it the first time now from you that there might be something wrong with it after all. If anyone, you should be more clear about these things within the ME but that is only my opinion. 

Anyway, I don't think the fishermen's friend are as much of a problem overall. The AI rarely uses it and human can deal with it. If one wants to abuse that and play 3 striker formations to attack the channels it is fine with me.

Where the ME really breaks down is the defensive phase. Precisely what happens in these two goals you've shown above. The inability of the defence to deal with the opposition even if they have the numerical advantage. Complete lack of pressure, the physicality that prevents that thing in football.

That, combined with lack of proper zonal marking is the real problem and that is present in all formations and affects the football the ME is able to present in general. It also defines how the offensive phase plays out. In those two goals you've posted you see that 3 strikers are not even involved in anything, their contribution is zero as they don't drop deep nor move wide. They just sit there until the ball is crossed to one of them for a tap in. Just the fact that two central midfielders are able to control the middle without the help from strikers, while being shorthanded, should have a big neon sign flashing the word WRONG all over the ME.

[Loversleaper]

Okay, looking down at my feet I can clearly see that the shoe is on the other foot. There was that brief look last night where I was trying to paint a picture, and due to some of the explanations from some of the people in this thread, I did go a little further into the matter at hand. Initially, there were a few mixed bag of results where it seemed that things varied causing a 'mixed bag' of results where sometimes I would even get fired or oppositely did very well - but that was only until you start to zoom in on the core elements of what a lot of you with concerns are expressing. Running through the workings of the 'super tactics' started to give me an idea of which of the tactical structures really damage the ME - and then I started using these 'super tactics' over a really broad base where I used multiple leagues and multiple teams and the conclusion is pretty clear... I think it is time that the people expressing their concerns can grab that sat-com and call Houston...

 

These 'super tactics' is tied to a (simple) formation - like the one @shirajzl showed in his screenshot of the CL final - and added extreme PI's. The ME can't cope with it playing in real time game (watching matches on full) or even on 'holiday' mode - the results turn pretty similar. The strike forces did at no point score under 75 goals and had some trios up over 115 goals between them (all tests no transfers no training regimes no nothing - just place the tactic, place the current players and then holiday mode). Watford beating Spurs 7-2, Gunners 6-1, City 6-0 and this happened at alarming frequencies. and not only in that part of the save, but simple all across the board. Burton and Barnsley (predicted 24th and 23rd) ran away from the league with absolute no adjustments. I used a good 24 teams from across Europe and multiple times, iirc I did around 13 seasons (all first season of course and then retried creating a whole new save) just to see how it varied - mainly I used two different versions of the same formation - and there is a clear and undisputed pattern all across the board, we are facing a 'super tactic' reality in lines of that game breaking Diablo tactic from 2005 or 2006 (I don't remember anymore).

 

I also went around and contacted people that are playing online games, and as @Svenc kind of mentioned, this is where it gets really unfortunate. That online reality seems to have been heavily effected, again - this is mentioned in this thread, and I can see why voices are coming up and they should be heard. My voice is going to also back up the voices that say "why on earth wasn't this picked up on?" - someone had to have known, why are we on the 3rd patch and this reality hasn't been addressed? Yeah, you can argue that the game isn't broken unless you decide to break it but who is fooling who here?

 

The most unfortunate part of this is that you have people who do a lot of work in trying to help people understand the game and something like this undoes all that in seconds. All the so-called tactical gurus and their work will get thrown straight out the window... and people, in general, who are trying to help others will run into a reality of being unreliable because hey - just throw 3 people up front and you will be fine...     

[penza]

has 18.3 reduced this in any way? some users are posting that its less effective?

[Svenc]

@Loversleaper This year's exploits are particularly effective, but in tendency you have this every season.   There's always been two schools of playing any CM/FM: a) exploit/break it b) don't. The truly Diablo isn't doable anymore though. It relates to unrealistic positioning tools that haven't been in the game anymore for a good ten years. Exploiting them meant you were likely to score every single time going forward, as your players could not be marked anymore. Naturally I share some of your concerns.

13 hours ago, MBarbaric said:

The ME isn't dealing with these situations in a way a football team would.

Interesting analysis. I think there is two perspectives to this:

- Playabilty / balance (is it playable? How do various AI sides in-game perform)
- Realism / robustness ("would not happen in football")

Not sure whether you had seen my post in that other thread. But it's the same perspectives. There is always stuff happening in FM that "would not happen on a football pitch". I personally highlighted the lack of pressure on the deepest midfielders in that post. It could be anyting though. [btw, intendency, that is also always were a possible exploit originates from]. I did not initially report this as a big issue as such., but realistically, it is. The above kind of analysis (and understanding) is beyond the scope of AI, it's also beyond the scope (and likely interest) of a good portion of FM's SI'S playerbase. Therefore, in particular if you are playing against any such systems, they lead to frustration. They also make the AI less robust, as it would need be hard-coded counter measures. Even from a purely "balancing" perspective thus, such issues are not desirably. Ideally, the ME itself would deal with such situations in "realistic" ways. Easier written than put into action, naturally, and if he is at all reading, PaulC may nod with a sigh.

Take this from the "casual player" perspective. He watches football, so as anybody comes with a few expectations:

- He takes Barcelona and expects that at home against West Ham, West Ham are unlikely to "dominate possession", unless he does something stupid. In FM, depending on the release, they perfectly easily can -- all depending how West Ham lines up.
- He may find it unlikely that a significantly weaker opponent is going to stage a comeback with 3 goals down, even if he doesn't keep his full backs from bombing forward. In FM, that opposition on occasion easily can, via the three fisher men (or if somebody remembers, the 4-2-4 AI switch of old...)

This always boils down to one thing and one thing primarily, imo. On a modern football pitch, there is little to zero space. Simple formational switches don't usually turn the match dynamics of matches upside down from one minute to the next. Some of the gaps appearing on FM's pitches would be dealt with dynamically and by common sense, arguably too. However, at the moment, FM probably cannot replicate this. It's still important to see this perspective also, no matter whether the game strifes for "100% realism" or not. At some point, this gets all thrown back at SI -- even by the more "casual" FM player. He may not be interested into the finer micro details. But he may expect the thing to play out a bit like footie all the same.

[Loversleaper]

@Svenc: I don't know where you draw the line where the severity determines when it can be warranted to be classified as a Diablo tactic. But one thing I did see is that this screenshot below was total common place throughout multiple saves:

 

 

This is, as mentioned, with absolutely no adjustments at all rendering everything in the game basically obsolete, and that reality has to be hooked to @Rashidistatement that "If you can take the exploit tactics and make them work all or nearly all the time with the assman in charge, without you even bringing any players in, then I feel its a major me bug."

- I mean, seriously, this is exactly where we are at...

 

Now, I am kind of wondering what would happen if we, for example, take a game like Counter Strike and for the online gamers they were in a situation where their opponents were constantly using a major and relatively easy exploit that made them basically unstoppable - well, unless you started to use the same exploit of course just to be in the game...?

[forameuss]

 

35 minutes ago, Loversleaper said:

Now, I am kind of wondering what would happen if we, for example, take a game like Counter Strike and for the online gamers they were in a situation where their opponents were constantly using a major and relatively easy exploit that made them basically unstoppable - well, unless you started to use the same exploit of course just to be in the game...?

Well, no.  Not even close to a decent comparison given that Counterstrike is an online game, often competitive too.  FM is a single player game for the most part.  You may as well compare it to someone having robot arms in real life.

[masno]

20 minutes ago, forameuss said:

 

Well, no.  Not even close to a decent comparison given that Counterstrike is an online game, often competitive too.  FM is a single player game for the most part.  You may as well compare it to someone having robot arms in real life.

Like CS, FM have patches to balance the game and some mechanics that maintain OP for years,and after some period of time,both need big changes so their games will look "New".

FM is more comparable with competitive games rather other singleplayers games. Of course the AI can't act like a human,but we can still exploit them and get wins because of this. 

[forameuss]

Just now, masno said:

Like CS, FM have patches to balance the game and some mechanics that maintain OP for years,and after some period of time,both need big changes so their games will look "New".

FM is more comparable with competitive games rather other singleplayers games. Of course the AI can't act like a human,but we can still exploit them and get wins because of this. 

FM is in no way comparable to games like Counterstrike, especially in the way that was hinted at in the post I replied to. 

[Rashidi]

1 hour ago, Loversleaper said:

Now, I am kind of wondering what would happen if we, for example, take a game like Counter Strike and for the online gamers they were in a situation where their opponents were constantly using a major and relatively easy exploit that made them basically unstoppable - well, unless you started to use the same exploit of course just to be in the game...?

Once again I will try and explain. 

There are countless exploits in counterstrike, dota and league of legends in solo gameplay mode. When you are 1v1 these exploits can be mitigated, but they aren't game breaking to allow one team overall superiority with minimum tools, which is why they make excellent esport games, unlike FM.

In FM in solo play there are exploits, match engine and non match engine related when you play against the AI. These have been around for ages, however in order for you to take advantage of them you need to do several things, and you need to get the best players you can based on certain attributes to take advantage of certain situations which may or not happen all the time. Can a team designed with attributes in mind always out perform other teams? Yes this has been the case since the game was first out. No surprises there. Are these game breaking is another question.

In on line VERSUS mode - and I don't mean online network saved games where you have to play the AI, and you don't get a chance to go head to head in real time - this is not an advantage, because the online manager who knows how to counter them will.  So if you want to compare counter strike online play with "live" opponents, please make an apple to apple comparison.

Scramjet and Diablo were two of the only tactics in the history of the game which were game breaking to the point where attributes didn't even matter because they took advantage of a match engine flaw that was bad. In every case these tactics could be holidayed for seasons on end and you didn't even need to sit in front of the computer. All you needed was an assman.

[Loversleaper]

48 minutes ago, forameuss said:

 

Well, no.  Not even close to a decent comparison given that Counterstrike is an online game, often competitive too.  FM is a single player game for the most part.  You may as well compare it to someone having robot arms in real life.

 

Counterstrike can be played in single player and online.... guess what, FM can be played in single player and online. Now if that is what some people would consider to be "apple and oranges" and others consider that to be in the "same ball park" then it can be down to how the individual interprets the case - you're right, why should someone else's interpretation be more accurate than the other person. It's semantics at best...

 

25 minutes ago, Rashidi said:

Scramjet and Diablo were two of the only tactics in the history of the game which were game breaking to the point where attributes didn't even matter because they took advantage of a match engine flaw that was bad. In every case these tactics could be holidayed for seasons on end and you didn't even need to sit in front of the computer. All you needed was an assman.

 

Like the screenshot I showed above (an untouched 16th predicted team), if that doesn't kind of fall into line of how you interpret when it can be determined to be a flaw - then may I ask what will it take? What scenario would you personally characterize where it falls into the category of being a, and I quote you, major ME bug/flaw that warrants action?

 

 

[forameuss]

3 minutes ago, Loversleaper said:

 

Counterstrike can be played in single player and online.... guess what, FM can be played in single player and online. Now if that is what some people would consider to be "apple and oranges" and others consider that to be in the "same ball park" then it can be down to how the individual interprets the case - you're right, why should someone else's interpretation be more accurate than the other person. It's semantics at best...

 

Counterstrike is a predominantly online game, FM is a predominantly single-player game.  If you want to describe it as otherwise to fit your argument, fair enough, but it doesn't make it any stronger.

[shirajzl]

2 hours ago, Loversleaper said:

 

People are often hung up on the umber of goals the three strikers scored here, but the number of assists they got is as alarming to me. It's because I know a vast majority of those came from crosses. Even when those three don't outnumber the defence (like on counter attacks), they freely cross to each other with centrebacks reacting neither to the ball nor the forwards.

[MBarbaric]

7 ore fa, Svenc ha scritto:

I did not initially report this as a big issue as such., but realistically, it is. The above kind of analysis (and understanding) is beyond the scope of AI, it's also beyond the scope (and likely interest) of a good portion of FM's SI'S playerbase. Therefore, in particular if you are playing against any such systems, they lead to frustration.

2

For me, the real problem is that the ME doesn't reproduce life-like defensive phase. As a knock on effect, it can't really reproduce the attacking phase either. Despite this fact, the ME produces stats that closely match the real stats. This tells me that the ME has to shoehorn the stats into the game of football it plays out. 

Ultimately, that is why with each ME we have a patch that, solving one problem, reveals another weakness of the ME. It reminds me of a guy on a boat with more holes than he has hands to plug them. There is always water leaking from somewhere. 

I agree with @lovesleaper that his test save shouldn't happen in the game and is a huge blow to what SI tries to do. That being said, maybe none of this matters and SI is perfectly happy as long as the game sells. More likely, they will plug that hole for the next year and wait 3 months til people realize there's another one. And again, maybe that isn't really a problem. Very few AI teams play with 3 narrow striker formations (i'd say AM and two SC's produce the same result, but whatever) so the player isn't really penalized. On top of it, those who want to win everything with just anyone, can go use fishermen's friends and do as they please. Everybody wins. 

And if that is the case, then who cares if the defensive phase doesn't work, who cares if two Ajax CM's can boss the midfield against Barcelona?

I don't like that approach and had stopped buying the game after FM16. However, I wonder what would happen if SI decided to implement proper zonal marking?

Zonal marking in football is literally drilled into teams. It could be said it is hard coded behaviour. There's little creativity in it (compared to offensive phase). It is virtually as close as human collective can get to machine behaviour therefore ideal for computer code to be hard coded into the engine (here's how Sacchi used to do it and it is an interesting watch to anyone who has minimal interest in football )

If this was implemented, the majority of players wouldn't know the difference compared to what we have at the moment. However, the attacking phase would need to be completely redone. And only then the SI might be forced to challenge themselves to bring into the game what it is missing. Proper ball circulation, play from the back, off the ball movement... It would create the need of recreating the proper possession based tactics that are lacking in the game. It isn't really surprising that these type of tactics aren't really in the game. They were developed to combat the zonal marking. So, if there is no zonal marking in the game, there is no need to make proper possession.

In the end, as @Svenc says, it all boils down to what is possible to do and where SI wants to take the game. 

10 minuti fa, shirajzl ha scritto:

a vast majority of those came from crosses. Even when those three don't outnumber the defence (like on counter attacks), they freely cross to each other with centrebacks reacting neither to the ball nor the forwards.

indeed

[Svenc]

5 hours ago, Loversleaper said:

@Svenc: I don't know where you draw the line where the severity determines when it can be warranted to be classified as a Diablo tactic. But one thing I did see is that this screenshot below was total common place throughout multiple saves

 

I agree with that. However, if you've looked around the wider FM communities, you have similar on every release. The most popular downloads here always draw everything moot, as by the end of each release cycle, it's discovered what exploits the game the most and what doesn't. http://www.fm-base.co.uk/ [Places like these are also FM Myth Central -- you rarely learn anything of much use here, and some of the popular providers even seem to argue that you shouldn't bother with any "thinking" -- just break the game and let it flow. There is at least one popular contributor who argues "playing football" would be a waste of time, and is naturally listened to due to the results he can deliver to his userbase]. The specialty of Diablo was that you could be thouroughly outplayed start to finish, however little time you went at all forward gave you a reasonably big chance to score. Basically, nothing made sense at all to a player using such. I think the first time this was apparent to SI was when FM Live was released. In an online environment, as you found too, you'll see that there's always players who just go with what brings the results. I think that's a viable style of playing, mind.

However, I'm on your side. The exploits ever since in general have been very similar. When Rashidi argues you could holiday -- well you don't even need to substitute players with any of those ever too. Player attributes mean zilch every year. Significantly better opposition doesn't stand a chance. Your management is a placebo. I think @Rashidi may see this a little differently as his Scramjet was a major exploit itself, in other words, he's historically been an exploiter too. That may also be the reason why he views the dynamics within the ME match play differently. I mean this in a neutral way: To an extent, this can be semantics. At which point are you simply being smart -- and at which point does the exploit start? An exploit from my end lets you score loads of goals no matter what opposition and own players, and that applies to every popular download any version. There is players who have never really "learned" how the game worked ever since the first CMs. Soon to approach thirty years of no hurt and still clueless, so to speak.

@shirajzl Did you try to sell a few of those League 1 level players, and what kind of offers did you get? Was one of your players ever considered for any of the awards? And can you post a screenshot of the team report statistics screen by the end of a season, out of interest?

@MBarbaric The problem may not be whether SI want to have proper zonal  defending. It may be that it's hard to code anything like that in-game and/or the current engine technology doesn't yet allow for it. This can be hard coded, but it's still about 10 players acting as units proper, all players being "aware" of what the others are doing. That's Artificial intelligence 2.0 right there! There isn't yet a proper collision possible between players too, so the more simple sides of physical defending (the shoulder charging, etc) aren't much present yet too.

 

[MBarbaric]

37 minuti fa, Svenc ha scritto:

The problem may not be whether SI want to have proper zonal  defending. It may be that it's hard to code anything like that in-game and/or the current engine technology doesn't yet allow for it. This can be hard coded, but it's still about 10 players acting as units proper, all players being "aware" of what the others are doing. That's Artificial intelligence 2.0 right there! There isn't yet a proper collision possible between players too, so the more simple sides of physical defending (the shoulder charging, etc) aren't much present yet too.

well, my coding skills are non existent so you might be right there. I have no idea what i am talking about in that regard. However, in some instances the ME already has much more intelligent behaviour than what is needed for zonal marking. In real, some teams use ropes to tie together their players to be in right distances/positions when training the defensive phase. It is really very mechanical and straight forward with two main references - position of the ball and team mates. There is exact rule where each of the players has to be in relation to the ball at all times. Admitedly, I have no idea about coding, but to me it sounds as mechanical as you can get, thus perfectly doable in a computer code to produce perfect defensive unit. The hard part, i think, is to make it less perfect. The hard part is to simulate real behaviour and represent players attributes (positioning, anticipation, concentration...) within the defensive system to make it possible to break it down. All coaches in the world would kill to have 11 robots while the opposition has the ball. That would allow them to place the robots exactly where they need to be all the time. THe tricky part is to do that with humans as they misjudge, they are lazy... Creating perfect defensive unit should be the easy part. Making them do the mistakes in human-like way is difficult. 

Of course, I have no idea about coding and could be way off, maybe someone with more experience could shed some light here. Anyway, if that is indeed possible, only then the real problem for the SI starts. They would need to code the offensive phase properly. Compared to defensive phase, that is way more creative and would really mean that SI needs to know what they are doing football and coding- wise. And that part, I am affraid, would be indeed inferior to the ME we currently have. I imagine it would be immensely more complicated to do the ME that is able to produce proper attacking phase and maintain life like stats in the game. 

As far as @Rashidi goes, I believe he monetizes his youtube channel so I can understand his stance on tactics and the ME in that regard.

[Loversleaper]

56 minutes ago, Svenc said:

I agree with that. However, if you've looked around the wider FM communities, you have similar on every release.

 

 

Yes, but this one seems pretty major - especially if we are going by @Rashidi's standard because in terms of 'boundaries' that boundary is clearly breached. Now, it would be interesting to know where SI stands in terms of their 'boundaries' where some flaw/bug would warrant immediate action - because with the evidence that I have seen, I am wondering if we haven't surpassed those boundaries as well...

[callamity]

im not sure monetizing anything has anything to do with determining what is and what isnt an exploit.

 

I have sat and ran tests with different 3 up top tactics, with swansea and not once did I see the squad perform to the point i would call it an exploit. getting a high of 9th, no signings and left in full charge of the assistant,  a true exploit would have walked the league with swansea and that is the type of thing the old scramjet and diablo could do. Granted in my tests not once did the 3 strikers score less than 60 goals between them and they obtained the majority of the assists which does show the 3 up top being powerful, but it is not game breaking, ive had strikers in my own saves score 40 goals in the prem in conventional tactics with a winger getting 35 assists aswell.  

 

Give me a tactic that walks the league with swansea conceding very few goals and then I will believe that fm18 can be properly exploited. 

[MBarbaric]

3 minuti fa, callamity ha scritto:

im not sure monetizing anything has anything to do with determining what is and what isnt an exploit.

but it does, if you sell the content then you really don't want that content being labelled as an exploit. Similarly, if you are financially tied to a product, from a business perspective, it would make little sense to openly criticize that product. Not saying Rashidi does that, if he did it, it wouldn't really be in his best financial interest. 

7 minuti fa, callamity ha scritto:

Give me a tactic that walks the league with swansea conceding very few goals and then I will believe that fm18 can be properly exploited. 

back to topic though, the problem isn't just the blatant exploits like fishermen's friends as you can always choose to avoid using things that break the ME.

More subtle deficiencies in the ME (such as midfield not being able to control the center despite the numerical advantage, or poor defensive positioning) are those that ultimately prevent the ME being more life like. These affect all formations and the way the ME plays out the football match for a much bigger audience. While these aren't widely acknowledged, they still breed frustration. 

[callamity]

1 minute ago, MBarbaric said:

but it does, if you sell the content then you really don't want that content being labelled as an exploit. Similarly, if you are financially tied to a product, from a business perspective, it would make little sense to openly criticize that product. Not saying Rashidi does that, if he did it, it wouldn't really be in his best financial interest. 

back to topic though, the problem isn't just the blatant exploits like fishermen's friends as you can always choose to avoid using things that break the ME.

More subtle deficiencies in the ME (such as midfield not being able to control the center despite the numerical advantage, or poor defensive positioning) are those that ultimately prevent the ME being more life like. These affect all formations and the way the ME plays out the football match for a much bigger audience. While these aren't widely acknowledged, they still breed frustration. 

i get what you are saying

[Svenc]

Try this.

Or this.



This is the key to getting ho-hum sides top of the table either way, goes every year.  No subs, no management, holiday in between matches, matches text commentary, no transfers etc. However, it's nothing inherently new as such.

[callamity]

2 minutes ago, Svenc said:

Try this.



This is the key to getting ho-hum sides top of the table either way, goes every year.  No subs, no management, holiday in between matches, matches text commentary, no transfers etc. However, it's nothing inherently new as such.

I actually holidayed the full season never played any of the matches,  but i will give that one a run out in my test after the next one i'm doing 

[shirajzl]

2 hours ago, Svenc said:

At which point are you simply being smart -- and at which point does the exploit start?

I was thinking about this yesterday. The line between "good tactician" and "ME exploiter" on FM could be finer than we think. When people who have deep understanding of the ME spot a tactical issue, they don't always necessarily think "I'll do this to fix it because it makes real football sense", but more something along the lines of "I'll plug this problem that way because that's the way this problem should be plugged on this ME". There's no deliberate exploiting there, but it's inadvertently threading on the edge.

 

2 hours ago, Svenc said:

 

@shirajzl Did you try to sell a few of those League 1 level players, and what kind of offers did you get? Was one of your players ever considered for any of the awards? And can you post a screenshot of the team report statistics screen by the end of a season, out of interest?

Can't show you the SS since I've long moved on in the save.

Regarding players getting offers and awards, the answer is a long standing FM problem; reputation and CA/PA rule the world. My players broke all kinds of records, goals, assists, average ratings through the roof but I never once got any offer for them. Equally disappointing, they didn't feature in any awards. My strikers, for example, weren't even considered in ten top goalscorer prediction charts, even though they had scored 30 odd goals the season before.

Their reputation was simply too low, as well as CA/PA and the game didn't recognize them as relevant.

 

[callamity]

3 hours ago, Svenc said:

Try this.

Or this.



This is the key to getting ho-hum sides top of the table either way, goes every year.  No subs, no management, holiday in between matches, matches text commentary, no transfers etc. However, it's nothing inherently new as such.

 

 

 

 

This first one you linked is the first out of all of them to see my manager fired, he was fired on the 16th of december prior to two victories.  I'm quite impressed to see those screenies you posted doing so well

the second one has 2 tactics in the main thread, which one are you using? one of the guys at end of thread won 38 out of 38 with ac milan using V2 i will run that through

 

 

 

the second one performed to the average of the 3 striker formations getting up to 9th.