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henri.melo00

Pushing a peripheral nation beyond

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I am currently trying to push the Irish Premier Division through the league ranking tables and I currently reached the peak of what I can accomplish alone, so now the nation coefficients will float like my team coefficients, mostly because, the other teams are sucking in their games (they lose games that they shouldn't).

I am following some guidelines that Cleon posted about maintaining the competitive in the league through the years. I already have played 12 seasons, won 11 times and I am on top in the final third of 13th season, but with solid competition. I am managing Shamrock Rovers aiming to develop the top tier in Ireland until a point that I can become a competitive force beyond CL group stage. I am already almost unstoppable in the playoffs, and have almost qualified for first knockout stage of Champions in 2 or 3 times, classified for EL knockouts stages the double of that, and in 1 time, reached the round of 16 after beating Fenerbahce.

I have already tried the same approach in FM 2014 (I am playing in 2017), but I didn't approached like I am doing now. I am insanely rich for Ireland (around 70 mi in bank right now and with a stadium expansion underway). I am proud of what I've achieved already, because I am trying to develop my own players, promoting the return of Ireland players and using my club as a hub for them to play in others Irish club, instead of using my financial prowess to increase the gap between me and the others clubs. I have good players, a lot of mid table Premier League interest around them and some of them are the best players that Irish has to offer in the game, but still isn't enough.

I am getting tired of being stomped by the giants in the CL Group Stage. I am at a point where I should be having a little more luck in the draw, but I am always handed with two giants (European terms) and intermediary to big teams. Watching the games, I felt that my players were losing a lot of balls in physical combat with other players, but I checked all the physical attributes before going in a physical recruitment process and they don't have low values (mostly around 13-15). I am thinking of using a more determined squad recruitment process, but the personalities right now are very positive.

I am not a hands-on manager when we talk about my behavior during a match (I watch mostly the key highlights), and I am not a fan of opposition instructions, they always break my team open. And when I analyze how I get the most results, I believed I luck out in 2 of 3 cases (won 2 times the 3rd position in the last game, with goals in the last minutes, thanks Atletico) and when I was drew with an accessible group, I flopped hard. In my last season I was so certain that I would lose that I used instant results and won 2 impossible games (8 x 2 against Atletico [I was using a 3-4-1-2] and 1 x 0 against City [using a 4-1-4-1 Contain] with the my only shot on target being the winning goal. Me and Atletico drew on points, but my 8 x 2 and their loss against City sealed my positive fate with a City goal in the last 15 minutes.

Right now, I am afraid that I am reaching the same place where I was during the last try, I am too big for Ireland, a recognizable force in playoffs, but I feel that I could do more. I already tried watching full matches, but it's not for me. The main problem is that doesn't matter if I play in my usual tactics or in my defensive tactics (mostly the usual in home games, and defensive in away games). 

So, someone has a new strategy to offer or any flaws in my reasoning? Because I am seriously considering go for the PSG approach, but I really don't want that, because the save is not only about my team accomplishments, I was so happy when another team classified for the EL group stage through being eliminated in CL Playoff and that they managed to get a win in one of the matches. However, without internal competition, the save will become boring.

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i think I mentioned this in another thread somewhere but managing in Norway I got back to back CL titles in 2020-21 on FM17 and my increased reputation increased the value of my players which seemed to rub off on other teams in the league - I hadn't had the focus on my own nation that you have, my best players were Czech, but I always prioritised selling in my own league and the overall increase in valuations in the league allowed them to further reinvest once they sold players abroad, I think when the save ended (2023 / 2023-4 european competitions) for two straight seasons in a row all norwegian teams that had qualification places had made it in the group stages of their respective continental competitions whilst I was a regular in the quarter / semi-finals. I guess what I'd done was more of a PSG approach that you mentioned? Also needed a bit of luck, not especially hands-on either. I played the same tactic without fail for 10 straight seasons, just marking players my AM suggested (always had to do it myself, if you click the button on the advice he always seems to put your most defensive central midfielder man-marking a striker which just ruins everything), just putting it on counter in big away games. 

 

So yeah, perhaps  abandon your principals for the overall good of the league? Bring in more foreign imports to compete with the Irish and drive the overall quality up which will then spill into increased revenues for your competitors whilst boosting you in Europe? Like I was bringing in the newgens super young and ended up with something like 60 players considered homegrown by my club scattered throughout Norway. Or maybe my save was just a freak, certainly back to back CL seems almost impossible on FM in normal circumstances. 

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20 minutes ago, zlatanera said:

i think I mentioned this in another thread somewhere but managing in Norway I got back to back CL titles in 2020-21 on FM17 and my increased reputation increased the value of my players which seemed to rub off on other teams in the league - I hadn't had the focus on my own nation that you have, my best players were Czech, but I always prioritised selling in my own league and the overall increase in valuations in the league allowed them to further reinvest once they sold players abroad, I think when the save ended (2023 / 2023-4 european competitions) for two straight seasons in a row all norwegian teams that had qualification places had made it in the group stages of their respective continental competitions whilst I was a regular in the quarter / semi-finals. I guess what I'd done was more of a PSG approach that you mentioned? Also needed a bit of luck, not especially hands-on either. I played the same tactic without fail for 10 straight seasons, just marking players my AM suggested (always had to do it myself, if you click the button on the advice he always seems to put your most defensive central midfielder man-marking a striker which just ruins everything), just putting it on counter in big away games. 

 

So yeah, perhaps  abandon your principals for the overall good of the league? Bring in more foreign imports to compete with the Irish and drive the overall quality up which will then spill into increased revenues for your competitors whilst boosting you in Europe? Like I was bringing in the newgens super young and ended up with something like 60 players considered homegrown by my club scattered throughout Norway. Or maybe my save was just a freak, certainly back to back CL seems almost impossible on FM in normal circumstances. 

Do you remember the starting position for Norway in the coefficients table and in the reputation leagues table? In my save I started behind Norway 2th tier and Norway was 22th place in coefficients table. So, the starting reputation of Norway clubs were bigger than mine in the same conditions. For instance, my club started with 2 star reputation and only after a lot of seasons, 11 or 12, I reached the 3rd star reputation. I was able to achieve the 4th star much earlier in FM 2014.

The league had rose a lot, I started in the 66th place and now I am in top 20 (I believe Championship is the only 2th tier division above us), oscillating between 15th and 20th, depending of the Irish performance in Europe. As for the coefficients table, Ireland was 41th place and now is 15th, but oscillating between 15th and 17th in the same terms of the league and of the other relevant countries performances in that level of the table (mostly Switzerland, Croatia and Ukraine). And to achieve the next tier of qualification places, I have to surpass a country doing around mostly 9 or 10 points than us and the other behind it.

I chose those principals because my last try in the same league was very flawed, and because the rest of the Ireland clubs couldn't do what I was doing in Europe. But I have seen good performances in some season for them, but they aren't able to maintain some winning consistency. When they lose for a big teams it's normal, but they are losing for teams they should be beating.

But thanks for the other tips about your tactical approach.

What was your strategy with newgens? Did you search through the World Transfers Youth Intake table or scouting?

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1 hour ago, henri.melo00 said:

Do you remember the starting position for Norway in the coefficients table and in the reputation leagues table? In my save I started behind Norway 2th tier and Norway was 22th place in coefficients table. So, the starting reputation of Norway clubs were bigger than mine in the same conditions

I chose those principals because my last try in the same league was very flawed, and because the rest of the Ireland clubs couldn't do what I was doing in Europe. But I have seen good performances in some season for them, but they aren't able to maintain some winning consistency. When they lose for a big teams it's normal, but they are losing for teams they should be beating.

But thanks for the other tips about your tactical approach.

What was your strategy with newgens? Did you search through the World Transfers Youth Intake table or scouting?

Yeah I'll be honest I had no idea what Ireland's reputation was - didn't realise it was that bad. Wasn't intending to disparage your achievements in any way. Do you find that they're absolutely atrocious in away legs in Europe? I think it took 5 years before Rosenborg managed to get a result away from home. 

I did the youth intake thing yeah. Looked through the leagues that I knew would be value - like Czech Republic (which was incredibly useful for me) and also Scandinavia because I'd started watching Vikings. Then I scrolled through the top divisions club by club on the facilities page to see who the best youth recruitment was, made a note of them then when it came to youth intake day I ordered alphabetically and only went for those clubs. I shortlist players for only three months too - usually its impossible to sign a newgen straight away but if they're generated in march I usually could get them by August. 

I don't know much about Shamrock's state, have you had the problem of the board accepting bids for players even though you yourself could get greater value? Took me 4 seasons before I had full control of transfers. Doing a project like this does really so much on luck though - for example the guy who scored the 120th minute winner for my first CL win only signed because Malmo had an absolute howler and missed out on Europe completely the year before, and Sparta Prague's finances took a turn for the worse meaning I got two outstanding prospects from them aged 16 (one scored 8 on his debut). 

Edited by zlatanera

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24 minutes ago, zlatanera said:

Yeah I'll be honest I had no idea what Ireland's reputation was - didn't realise it was that bad. Wasn't intending to disparage your achievements in any way. Do you find that they're absolutely atrocious in away legs in Europe? I think it took 5 years before Rosenborg managed to get a result away from home. 

I did the youth intake thing yeah. Looked through the leagues that I knew would be value - like Czech Republic (which was incredibly useful for me) and also Scandinavia because I'd started watching Vikings. Then I scrolled through the top divisions club by club on the facilities page to see who the best youth recruitment was, made a note of them then when it came to youth intake day I ordered alphabetically and only went for those clubs. I shortlist players for only three months too - usually its impossible to sign a newgen straight away but if they're generated in march I usually could get them by August. 

I don't know much about Shamrock's state, have you had the problem of the board accepting bids for players even though you yourself could get greater value? Took me 4 seasons before I had full control of transfers. Doing a project like this does really so much on luck though - for example the guy who scored the 120th minute winner for my first CL win only signed because Malmo had an absolute howler and missed out on Europe completely the year before, and Sparta Prague's finances took a turn for the worse meaning I got two outstanding prospects from them aged 16 (one scored 8 on his debut). 

I didn't thought that you were playing down my achievements, I only asked to have a notion of your start in comparison to mine. They are atrocious at home, they usually hold it very well away, but if it is the second leg, the damage was already done in the home game or if it's the first leg, they usually fail at home.

No, I don't have any problems with my board whatsoever. But the value of my star players are around 1-2 millions. When I want to load off some players that have capacity for playing abroad, I don't have problems in selling them using their transfer value. And I rarely have problems with players wanting to get out, because, Shamrock is a better option than the most clubs that want them, and when they want to go, I usually respect that wish when I receive a fair amount for them. I believe my highest received bid is less than 5 mi.

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Yeah Tromsø were newly promoted but there was enough talent to get the double in my first season with barely any signings. Well I can't really offer any more advice, hopefully other people will notice this thread and help you out. Good luck with it! 

Edited by zlatanera

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It might not hurt to bring in a little bit of top tier talent outside of Ireland just to ensure you can get a bit stronger finishes in the Champions League.

I ended up doing this with Norway (I ended up at Skeid in my game, and got them promoted and eventually won UCL with them).  For me it was largely about getting that league reputation up, as that helped me keep my stars without them getting upset (because the league was good!), and also greatly improved their development AND the development of players in the rest of the league.

After I won UCL I didn't keep playing (it was like my 15th or 16th season in that game and I had just moved on), but I had gotten Norway to I think 7th place.  Basically it meant that I was sending more teams to continental leagues which meant more of them were getting influxes of money. Once I had a few teams that could consistently make the UEL Group Stage, it meant they were pulling in a lot more money and just had more games that they could win/draw to help contribute to the coefficient score.

That said, there is an adjustment period once we had a 5th team show up.  Once I was no longer able to get easy coefficient points in the qualification rounds, and the coefficient being divided over 5 teams instead of 4, we did dip a bit because we weren't replacing abysmal coefficients with 5 years ago anymore (which you may have hit now).  But it's a slow process for sure.  I find a lot of it is based around money and I also sometimes would buy the odd kiddo from my league rivals just to save them from getting poached out of the country. It'd also be an influx of cash for my rival which they could hopefully do something with.

Good luck!

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8 hours ago, alanschu14 said:

It might not hurt to bring in a little bit of top tier talent outside of Ireland just to ensure you can get a bit stronger finishes in the Champions League.

I ended up doing this with Norway (I ended up at Skeid in my game, and got them promoted and eventually won UCL with them).  For me it was largely about getting that league reputation up, as that helped me keep my stars without them getting upset (because the league was good!), and also greatly improved their development AND the development of players in the rest of the league.

After I won UCL I didn't keep playing (it was like my 15th or 16th season in that game and I had just moved on), but I had gotten Norway to I think 7th place.  Basically it meant that I was sending more teams to continental leagues which meant more of them were getting influxes of money. Once I had a few teams that could consistently make the UEL Group Stage, it meant they were pulling in a lot more money and just had more games that they could win/draw to help contribute to the coefficient score.

That said, there is an adjustment period once we had a 5th team show up.  Once I was no longer able to get easy coefficient points in the qualification rounds, and the coefficient being divided over 5 teams instead of 4, we did dip a bit because we weren't replacing abysmal coefficients with 5 years ago anymore (which you may have hit now).  But it's a slow process for sure.  I find a lot of it is based around money and I also sometimes would buy the odd kiddo from my league rivals just to save them from getting poached out of the country. It'd also be an influx of cash for my rival which they could hopefully do something with.

Good luck!

Thanks for your input.

How was your recruitment process? I bring talents from other nations, I don't have a Irish or home-grown policy, It's just that I am not  spending the bucks required to bring the over-evaluated english players, because I know no one will be able to afford them in Ireland when they cease to be useful to my club.

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2 hours ago, henri.melo00 said:

Thanks for your input.

How was your recruitment process? I bring talents from other nations, I don't have a Irish or home-grown policy, It's just that I am not  spending the bucks required to bring the over-evaluated english players, because I know no one will be able to afford them in Ireland when they cease to be useful to my club.

Norway's home grown players is super strict so my recruitment process was very much find solid youth from all over europe so that I could get home grown status with them. It also let me loan them out to other teams to gain that home grown status.

I think I was also helped because I started with a smaller club, so some of the other more established clubs (Rosenborg, Molde, etc) were able to take advantage of increased club rep and the income from continental play.  Selling at a loss and/or loaning to rivals can help boost some of your league rivals as well.

I was able to consistently make knockout round which helped bring in money by selling out even things like cup games, which help smaller teams as well.  Best thing you can do is keep trying to make sure your team grows and your coefficient will probably oscillate a bit, but once you can consistently get to Champions League knockout it'll help keep your league reputation higher which has knock on positive effects for the rest of your league.

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I'm always developing my own players to the academy. The only 'downside' is that I also buy the best talents away from the other teams. But by selling the players that wont make the cut, I sell to teams that play for the spots 4-18 - I don't sell to direct rivals. Always improves the league - at least in my saves it always works well.

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7 hours ago, Rooks said:

I'm always developing my own players to the academy. The only 'downside' is that I also buy the best talents away from the other teams. But by selling the players that wont make the cut, I sell to teams that play for the spots 4-18 - I don't sell to direct rivals. Always improves the league - at least in my saves it always works well.

Do you find you need to sell at a loss or anything? I noticed I needed to be a bit charitable (which when you consistently make to knockout round in UCL, isn't that hard) in my time in Norway.

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12 hours ago, alanschu14 said:

Norway's home grown players is super strict so my recruitment process was very much find solid youth from all over europe so that I could get home grown status with them. It also let me loan them out to other teams to gain that home grown status.

I think I was also helped because I started with a smaller club, so some of the other more established clubs (Rosenborg, Molde, etc) were able to take advantage of increased club rep and the income from continental play.  Selling at a loss and/or loaning to rivals can help boost some of your league rivals as well.

I was able to consistently make knockout round which helped bring in money by selling out even things like cup games, which help smaller teams as well.  Best thing you can do is keep trying to make sure your team grows and your coefficient will probably oscillate a bit, but once you can consistently get to Champions League knockout it'll help keep your league reputation higher which has knock on positive effects for the rest of your league.

I always accept any offer that they make for my players, but if I start to paying huge wages, they won't be able to afford. I also prefer to loan them inside the country. But, I need that those clubs to bid, and if they can't pay, they won't try to buy my players.

I don't understand what you mean with selling out even things like cup games.

Money in Ireland is not a thing, the TV rights are ridiculous and the prize for winning started in 200k, and now is around 600k. So, the only moment a club had real money, besides me, was when one of them reached EL group stage.

 

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53 minutes ago, henri.melo00 said:

I don't understand what you mean with selling out even things like cup games.

Money in Ireland is not a thing, the TV rights are ridiculous and the prize for winning started in 200k, and now is around 600k. So, the only moment a club had real money, besides me, was when one of them reached EL group stage.

Yeah I think that money will always be a challenge, and getting those group stage appearances is what will need to happen.

I'm not sure how Cup games are in Ireland, but in Norway (and it seems Switzerland, where I am this season) the gate receipts for cup games were shared, and because I was getting successful and was able to jump my stadium size from like 15k to 40k, it meant that those games would be a nice influx for cash as well.  Not a big deal but as you say, money is tough tough tough.

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On 20/02/2018 at 17:20, alanschu14 said:

Yeah I think that money will always be a challenge, and getting those group stage appearances is what will need to happen.

I'm not sure how Cup games are in Ireland, but in Norway (and it seems Switzerland, where I am this season) the gate receipts for cup games were shared, and because I was getting successful and was able to jump my stadium size from like 15k to 40k, it meant that those games would be a nice influx for cash as well.  Not a big deal but as you say, money is tough tough tough.

I am getting those group stage appearances, regularly. In the last 8 seasons, I appeared 6 times in CL group stage and 2 times in EL group stage (one time because I finished second and another when the team wasn't so strong, in the beginning of the streak).

I also don't know how the Cup games work, where I can check (ingame)? I am playing in Aviva Stadium, the biggest stadium in Ireland this season (stadium expansion from 9k to 13,5k), and I can't put 20k regularly, only special matches, and even in great Champions matches, I can't break the 25k barrier.

 

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On 20-2-2018 at 17:53, alanschu14 said:

Do you find you need to sell at a loss or anything? I noticed I needed to be a bit charitable (which when you consistently make to knockout round in UCL, isn't that hard) in my time in Norway.

Well, talents that are under 100k, I sell very cheap to teams but with a 30%/50% sell on clause. When I'm around 5 seasons in and I am a powerhouse I usually bid more for players in my competition. This way - just as in England - the money stays in our league. 

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I had a Wexford Youths save back on FM 15 where I won the CL. The Irish league can be a real b*** when it comes to getting the other teams to do something.

I'd regularly give St. Pats or Dundalk a few million each and they'd still do absolutely NOTHING with the money. Maybe upgrade youth facilities once a year and sign nobody (or **** free transfers).

I'd bring in players from abroad with an aim to giving them to other teams in the league, but no player is ever interested in even going on loan to the other clubs.

It's a nightmare if you want them to improve in a 20 year period. This is a 100 year project. Don't get me started on the fixture scheduling in this league (4 game weeks anyone?)

Edited by JDeeguain

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8 hours ago, Rooks said:

Well, talents that are under 100k, I sell very cheap to teams but with a 30%/50% sell on clause. When I'm around 5 seasons in and I am a powerhouse I usually bid more for players in my competition. This way - just as in England - the money stays in our league. 

Yeah I ended up doing the same with Norway as well.

Doing something similar with Switzerland, though this game I'm not as committed to the league long term and I want to try a more journeyman career where I don't reject offers that no human would reject lol (I was approached for interviews by Preston and Derby County as they moved to the EPL that I accepted. Didn't get the job though).  Also since I just got promoted to the Super League, I'm still more focused on making sure my roster is as strong as possible to avoid relegation and push for continental competition.

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13 hours ago, JDeeguain said:

I had a Wexford Youths save back on FM 15 where I won the CL. The Irish league can be a real b*** when it comes to getting the other teams to do something.

I'd regularly give St. Pats or Dundalk a few million each and they'd still do absolutely NOTHING with the money. Maybe upgrade youth facilities once a year and sign nobody (or **** free transfers).

I'd bring in players from abroad with an aim to giving them to other teams in the league, but no player is ever interested in even going on loan to the other clubs.

It's a nightmare if you want them to improve in a 20 year period. This is a 100 year project. Don't get me started on the fixture scheduling in this league (4 game weeks anyone?)

I don't believe I can be stuck with a save for 100 seasons, I thought that was a 20-30 years project. Or maybe 40, but 100 never crossed my mind.

 

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I don't know if anybody knows this - does the performance of the national team affect the value of players? I would assume if a player performs well in an international tournament then they get an inflated value, but I'm thinking perhaps if you manage to get the Ireland job then perform miracles with them you might see some increased valuations for players throughout the league and more interest from foreign clubs? 

 

Just a theory though, anybody feel free to correct me if I'm way off base.

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On 23/02/2018 at 20:23, zlatanera said:

I don't know if anybody knows this - does the performance of the national team affect the value of players? I would assume if a player performs well in an international tournament then they get an inflated value, but I'm thinking perhaps if you manage to get the Ireland job then perform miracles with them you might see some increased valuations for players throughout the league and more interest from foreign clubs? 

 

Just a theory though, anybody feel free to correct me if I'm way off base.

I am currently managing Ireland too, I didn't see any difference in terms of inflation on the value or the offers of the clubs in my current international players.

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