Broken Promises

[tacticsdude]

Player has been asking for way more money than I was willing to pay for his quality. Towards the end of the season he hits very nice form and starts delivering the performances we need. In the middle of playing cup finals he asks for a new contract, so I tell him I agree he deserves a new contract and we'll deal with it at the end of the season (in a few weeks) so we can focus on the games at hand.

Season is over, so I call his agent to negotiate and now he's decided to nearly double his previous request. I try top bring him down to something manageable, lots of bonuses and such, but the negotiation fails.

 

Now the promise fails too, and the options available are pure nonsense. What do you do in this situation?

 

What I want to say to him is:
Your demands are out of line. You are asking for more than three times as much as the next largest contract, and your performance is not that of an irreplaceable player like you think (7.13 avg, 15 goals in 36 games). I do believe you deserve a new contract and we are ready to sign, but you don't get to set these exaggerated terms, and until you come down to earth we are not going to make any progress. If that means you want out, that's fine by me as well, I'll put you on the market any time you request. Decide what you want and let me know.

 

BTW, this is why I abhor the promises system and try hard to stay away from it. I only fell into it this time for trying to show respect to the player because he had earned his place, instead of just telling him no deal and renegotiating later.

[tacticsdude]

Also, if I try to open negotiations again his agent turns me down due to the recent break down.

I clicked on option #2 'bugger off until I call you' for now, but I wonder what happens in a week or two when he comes back.

I'm going to try to use the editor to remove this promise from the save.

Looks like after that interaction the promise is not there anymore. So option 'go suck a lemon' at least makes the thing go away.

[Spurs08]

The phrasing is very poor - when it says offer a new contract, what it actually means it agree a new contract. That's why he refers to the lack of a "suitable" offer, and from there an option to say "your demands were too high" is pretty redundant - that goes without saying, if they weren't too high it would have been agreed. 

What should probably happen is that when deciding whether to make the initial promise, you get a rough indication of what the player is looking for - "in line with key players at the club", or "similar to other top players in the league", or even "at least as much as Interested Club X are playing their first-teamers". That way you don't get into this sort of situation where you make the promise in good faith without realising how much he wanted.

[sporadicsmiles]

The promise fails because you did not give him a new contract like you agreed you would. That his offer is too high in your opinion is not really relevant here. You made the promise of a new contract, and you would have had some idea of what kind of money he was going to request (at least your post says so). Therefore, he would have assumed that you would offer him what he wanted, and try to get the deal done. So there is no real issue there except the making of the promise in the first place. 

[tacticsdude]

10 hours ago, sporadicsmiles said:

The promise fails because you did not give him a new contract like you agreed you would.

Thank you for your opinion. I think you are closer to the real interpretation of FM, my problem is that this interpretation (the FM one) makes no sense.

You can't agree to a contract until you've seen and signed the contract. It is only at the end of a negotiation when you can actually agree to something. Until then you've only agreed to talk about it. It seems that FM doesn't see it this way - the game is treating it like you've signed a blank check the moment you tell the player he can send his agent over for a conversation- any less and I've made empty promises.

Nothing in life works that way. There is no contract in this world that is negotiated that way. That is not what the word agreement means.

 

In reality, all that happened during our conversation was a meeting of the minds about whether the player should stay at the club. He said he wants to stay with the club and deserves a better contract, I said I want him to stay at the club and I want to give him a better contract. We then have to establish what 'staying at the club' and 'better contract' actually mean (in negotiation). If negotiation fails, we are both jaded with each other, and it is both our faults for not coming to an agreement. He is right to ask for more money given the other league salaries, and I'm rightly saying I won't pay 3 times more than the next key player.

So maybe we can't get on the same page. But he doesn't get to say I broke my word anymore than he broke his word to me. Actually, neither of us promised anything, we were just talking about how we want to work together and we hoped to get on the same page about his contract. He is now getting sold and we are both disappointed at the outcome, but nobody broke any promises.

 

NEW RULE:

Every time you make a promise in FM, the word PROMISE has to be in there. You can't promise something by just saying:
The new season is coming up and I'd like for us to review your contract

This is a promise: I promise you will have the contract that you want, I won't lose you.

There's room for both those situations. FM assumes the first situation = the second.

 

Broken Promises, Broken Interactions

IMO as a user, the only way to handle the FM promises system is to avoid it. I've figured out the negative options in the dialogs ('no, and  go away'), and I only choose those to prevent further agony. That means that the promises system is not only broken in itself, but it breaks the interactions with players because it hijacks many of the dialog options (without any notice).

So because of the promises system I'm also blocked from having meaningful interactions with my players. It's always:

Player: I have a concern because _______  and I feel that I deserve ______
Manager: No, and go away

 

[tacticsdude]

So now we are here:

 

Because he won't sign a new contract with me (his agent shuts me down) and he is starting to talk to other teams (he has a release clause lower than his market value), I thought to preempt the situation and sell him at a time and deal that's convenient to me, so I sent an offer on the wire for him.

Now he wants to know why I'm selling him. I'd be happy to explain:
I feel we are not going to get on the same page and I think you are already considering other clubs. I won't stand in the way of your career and this is the perfect time to find you a transfer (June 29th). But if I'm mistaken and you still want to stay at the club, then please send your agent over with more reasonable terms because, as you know, we still want you here and would much prefer to give you the improved contract you deserve.

Which of those dialog options even remotely resembles what's actually happening here?

 

[lemeuresnew]

11 minutes ago, tacticsdude said:

So now we are here:

 

Because he won't sign a new contract with me (his agent shuts me down) and he is starting to talk to other teams (he has a release clause lower than his market value), I thought to preempt the situation and sell him at a time and deal that's convenient to me, so I sent an offer on the wire for him.

Now he wants to know why I'm selling him. I'd be happy to explain:
I feel we are not going to get on the same page and I think you are already considering other clubs. I won't stand in the way of your career and this is the perfect time to find you a transfer (June 29th). But if I'm mistaken and you still want to stay at the club, then please send your agent over with more reasonable terms because, as you know, we still want you here and would much prefer to give you the improved contract you deserve.

Which of those dialog options even remotely resembles what's actually happening here?

 

unfortunately, the second to bottom. just a simple 'if you want to stay sign a contract' would be ideal.

it is like the player forgets every other conversation before hand. if a player refuses to sign and doesn't understand that leads to being sold, he should be sent to the medical department for head scans. has he recently suffered any concussions? 

[The Enforcer]

I've read about a number of manager responses where something is lost in translation to FM-speak. I've tried to pull these together below, I'm sure there are others that can be added:

1. Offer a new contract = agree a new contract no matter how unreasonable the player's demands

2. Give youth players a chance in the first team = promise to play youth players developed from own academy

3. Will make play-offs = remain in play-off positions all season

4. Promoted in two years = achieve automatic promotion in two years

5. Sell player at end of next season = sell player in two weeks

6. Give player playing time next season = must make more than 31 appearances next season

7. Assign as a free-kick taker = must take all free-kicks

8. Use player in preferred position/role = use player in preferred position/role with no changes to default player instructions whatsoever

9. Give first team football = ensure plays in all matches a few weeks before promise deadline

10. Sell influential player because he wants to leave = lie about why he was sold to other players because correct reason is not available

[Baodan]

On ‎18‎-‎02‎-‎2018 at 11:51, The Enforcer said:

I've read about a number of manager responses where something is lost in translation to FM-speak. I've tried to pull these together below, I'm sure there are others that can be added:

1. Offer a new contract = agree a new contract no matter how unreasonable the player's demands

2. Give youth players a chance in the first team = promise to play youth players developed from own academy

3. Will make play-offs = remain in play-off positions all season

4. Promoted in two years = achieve automatic promotion in two years

5. Sell player at end of next season = sell player in two weeks

6. Give player playing time next season = must make more than 31 appearances next season

7. Assign as a free-kick taker = must take all free-kicks

8. Use player in preferred position/role = use player in preferred position/role with no changes to default player instructions whatsoever

9. Give first team football = ensure plays in all matches a few weeks before promise deadline

10. Sell influential player because he wants to leave = lie about why he was sold to other players because correct reason is not available

Haha this is just too true! The wording really could be a lot better, and sometimes a translation saying what you're actually promising, would be greatly appreciated.

SI hire this man to help with translations for the next game.

[tacticsdude]

On 2/18/2018 at 02:17, lemeuresnew said:

it is like the player forgets every other conversation before hand. if a player refuses to sign and doesn't understand that leads to being sold, he should be sent to the medical department for head scans. has he recently suffered any concussions? 

It really hurt when you brought that up. The player took a nasty hit to the head exactly a month ago. The physios wanted him rested for 2 weeks but we had the CL final 5 days later so he played. I asked him how he was feeling and he said fine but I should know better because players always say that, particularly to play a final.

Now I'm worried I did this by not taking the injury more seriously.

[WorcesterLegend]

hace 1 hora, tacticsdude dijo:

It really hurt when you brought that up. The player took a nasty hit to the head exactly a month ago. The physios wanted him rested for 2 weeks but we had the CL final 5 days later so he played. I asked him how he was feeling and he said fine but I should know better because players always say that, particularly to play a final.

Now I'm worried I did this by not taking the injury more seriously.

you sir have the best history in FM ever, forget San marino being world cup champions and San Marino Calcio WInning the Champions league, this is the best i have ever seem in year xDD

 

now being serious, thats actually true, the only things you should promise is prefered role, sell player and maybe reinforce x place of the squad, i loss a wonderkid for half his market value because i promised him to be the Penalty taker, bad luck rises when he gets an 3 month injury and then a 2 months injury after 4 games, in total he just took 1 chance to shoot a penalty and misses (lol) he then was angry because of that when i wanted to say "you were injured more than half of the season, how could i make you take more penalty shoots?"...good think he was cheap (only 34.500 $...) and sold for 5M when i could get more than 10M if he wasnt mad at me and started to talk trash to the other player

[Sunstrikuuu]

On 2/18/2018 at 02:46, tacticsdude said:

Broken Promises, Broken Interactions

IMO as a user, the only way to handle the FM promises system is to avoid it. I've figured out the negative options in the dialogs ('no, and  go away'), and I only choose those to prevent further agony. That means that the promises system is not only broken in itself, but it breaks the interactions with players because it hijacks many of the dialog options (without any notice).

I think it was FM 2015 where I showed that the 'accept a bid', 'accept a reasonable offer' and 'accept a bid after replacement' promises actually all led to identical outcomes.  As with so many parts of the game, it's a good idea that's not had the time or resources it needs.  It gets implemented, has a few very rough edges sanded off over time and is mostly abandoned.  Eventually it will be completely overhauled and get new rough edges in the same version that some major feature or rebuild is introduced, and the cycle will start again.

[The Enforcer]

On 19 February 2018 at 14:23, WorcesterLegend said:

i loss a wonderkid for half his market value because i promised him to be the Penalty taker, bad luck rises when he gets an 3 month injury and then a 2 months injury after 4 games, in total he just took 1 chance to shoot a penalty and misses (lol) he then was angry because of that when i wanted to say "you were injured more than half of the season, how could i make you take more penalty shoots?"

11. Assign penalty taker = must take all penalties even if unable to walk.

[The Enforcer]

On 18 February 2018 at 10:51, The Enforcer said:

10. Sell influential player because he wants to leave = lie about why he was sold to other players because correct reason is not available

I've refined this one:

10. Sell influential player because he wants to leave = forced to make additional promises to appease angry teammates, because not possible to give correct reason for sale

[The Enforcer]

12. Perform much better on the pitch and improve club's standing = if you don't win all competitions you're fired with no warning on a match day