Pace and Power

[Deserter28]

I've just about survived season 1, with a 4-4-2 dour defensive tactic, that has saved AFC Wimbledon from relegation (just). Now I want to upgrade to a proper tactic, based on a few existing players and a bunch of new ones that fit how I want to play. Basically I want to stick with 4-4-2, with a tactic that relies on us counter attacking with pace and power. When the opposition have the ball I want us organised, with 9 men behind the ball, being patient and keeping them out of the box. When we have the ball I want us to explode, utilising attacking wide men and strikers, through balls that will have slower league one defenders turning, and creating space behind those defences.

My keeper and centre backs are sorted, tactically; the goalkeeper will be an orthodox, commanding keeper, and the CBs will defend (other than set pieces). But I'm not clear about the mentalities of my wide men. When we attack I want the full backs to have licence to get forward, on the overlap or underlap. I'll need new fullbacks on either side, with decent defensive skills, but also good fitness and crossing / technical skills. In front, I'll have wide midfielders who can get up and down, and will look to attack as soon as we get the ball. 

So if I put my full backs on attacking mentality, does that mean they will disappear off up the pitch and leave the defending to others, which is not what I want? Or is it relative, in that defenders will always look to defend first, but an FB on attacking mentality will look to get forward only when the opportunity arises? Similarly, if I want my wide midfielder to defend reasonably deep but move into attack mode the moment we get the ball, do I want support, automatic or attacking mentality?

[juusal]

1 hour ago, Deserter28 said:

I've just about survived season 1, with a 4-4-2 dour defensive tactic, that has saved AFC Wimbledon from relegation (just). Now I want to upgrade to a proper tactic, based on a few existing players and a bunch of new ones that fit how I want to play. Basically I want to stick with 4-4-2, with a tactic that relies on us counter attacking with pace and power. When the opposition have the ball I want us organised, with 9 men behind the ball, being patient and keeping them out of the box. When we have the ball I want us to explode, utilising attacking wide men and strikers, through balls that will have slower league one defenders turning, and creating space behind those defences.

My keeper and centre backs are sorted, tactically; the goalkeeper will be an orthodox, commanding keeper, and the CBs will defend (other than set pieces). But I'm not clear about the mentalities of my wide men. When we attack I want the full backs to have licence to get forward, on the overlap or underlap. I'll need new fullbacks on either side, with decent defensive skills, but also good fitness and crossing / technical skills. In front, I'll have wide midfielders who can get up and down, and will look to attack as soon as we get the ball. 

So if I put my full backs on attacking mentality, does that mean they will disappear off up the pitch and leave the defending to others, which is not what I want? Or is it relative, in that defenders will always look to defend first, but an FB on attacking mentality will look to get forward only when the opportunity arises? Similarly, if I want my wide midfielder to defend reasonably deep but move into attack mode the moment we get the ball, do I want support, automatic or attacking mentality?

Attacking fullbacks often drive forward when your team has the ball, supporting the attacks. Of course this also depends on the team mentality, if you play with the attacking mentality they are more aggressive, and with defensive they are more reserved with their runs. Of course, as they push forward, they leave space behind and you might be vulnerable to counter attacks so be wary. In a 4-4-2 formation it's a bit more difficult to cover this space as there is no defensive midfielder on that side, or a back three, but you if you have an attacking fullback on the same side with the midfielder that has a defensive duty, the midfielder helps a bit to cover the space. You could use only one attacking fullback, leaving the other to help out with the defence. Or Use a fullback on support, but add the gets further forward - player instruction.

The best way to see how it works is to obviously try it out yourself, and if too many gaps appear for your liking, go for a more reserved option. I would also consider changing these depending on your situation, for example using support duties when you are leading to avoid risks, and when you are behind and need to get a goal then push them on attacking to provide a bit more punch in the attack.

[Deserter28]

Thanks jusaal. I think what I'm wrestling with is how to do a genuine counter attacking style. As I understand it the counter mentality just means the team take fewer risks than on standard. What I want to get to is a team that is patient and organised without the ball, but is ready to pour forward when in possession. So we attack with 7 or 8 players with full backs looking to overlap and get crosses in or underlap and look to get around the box. And then if we lose the ball we work hard to get back behind the ball, focussing on being hard to break down rather than pressing. Maybe automatic \ further forward with the wide midfielders dribbling more?

 

[isignedupfornorealreason]

59 minutes ago, Deserter28 said:

As I understand it the counter mentality just means the team take fewer risks than on standard. What I want to get to is a team that is patient and organised without the ball, but is ready to pour forward when in possession. So we attack with 7 or 8 players with full backs looking to overlap and get crosses in or underlap and look to get around the box. And then if we lose the ball we work hard to get back behind the ball, focussing on being hard to break down rather than pressing.

Sounds pretty much exactly what the counter mentality does. 

[juusal]

1 hour ago, isignedupfornorealreason said:

Sounds pretty much exactly what the counter mentality does. 

Not really, counter mentality is really reserved on the attack, it's more defensive than standard mentality. Obviously mentality is not the only thing affecting it so you can make it work with aggressive roles and TIs.

@Deserter28 Depending on which one you value more, the defensive organisation or the aggressive attacks, you can go with a lower (like the counter mentality) and use fullbacks on attack duty, higher tempo and mixed or direct passing. However, if you prefer the attacking side more, I would try a more aggressive mentality like control or attacking, but combine it by sitting slightly deeper and closing down less. Make sure one of your midfielders is more defensively minded in order to control the space in front of your defenders. If you want your fullbacks to overlap, you can try inverted wingers or wide playmakers as your wide roles as they cut inside more, leaving space for the fullback to overlap.

[isignedupfornorealreason]

14 hours ago, juusal said:

Not really, counter mentality is really reserved on the attack, it's more defensive than standard mentality.

Erm... Did you just completely ignore everything else he wrote so you could nitpick on one element? 

 

Quote

On the Defensive and Counter mentalities, players will be slightly more inclined to attempt to launch these rapid counterattacks, though against opponents that keep numbers behind the ball, opportunities to break forward will be few and far between. In those cases, a team will have to either settle for a more patient attacking build-up to break them down or increase the risk of losing possession to quickly get the ball into advanced positions.

 

^Taken directly from the excellent Lines and Diamonds.

Counter suits what he's asking for, since he wants his players to consolidate behind the ball and be patient in defence. And once he counter attacks, he will see his players 'pour forwards' as he so wishes when the opportunity arises.

[Deserter28]

OK, so I've made a start. We have two games to play this season, and are safe from relegation so I can experiment I think. We're away at Wigan who are fourth, while we are 17th, so for this game I'm focussing on the defensive side:

I've got the full backs getting further forward and staying wide, while the wide midfielders will sit more narrow. I prefer to play a wider game with right footed players on the right and vice versa so I haven't gone with the inverted wingers; I may yet go down the wide playmaker route, or even defensive wingers. 

I haven't really got the personnel yet, so I'm expecting a beating, but will try and analyse whether the players are doing what I want them to do. I'll let you know how I get on...

[Deserter28]

Could have been worse...

Lost to an 80th minute own goal. They have 30 shots, but very few troubled the keeper. We had decent chances on the break; their defence was very quick, but we managed to find holes. I had to put the wide midfielders on automatic as they didn't really get into position when we lost the ball, which worked better, but in the second half they (playing a narrow 4-2-3-1) kept finding space down the flanks with their full backs, which is where the goal came from eventually. Definitely something to work on.

[RodentofDoom]

You could swap the duties on your FB(s)/WM(a) to FB(a)/WM(s) .. with your MC(d) on that side of the pitch it has a little more cover to enable a rampaging FB and the MW(s) will still track back defensively more than the WM(a) will. FB(a) combined with the WM in support mode they will both be more forward looking, enabling more passing/goal opportunity chances than with only the WM going forward aggressively. 

a few more games will see those partnerships continue to develop, it does seem to make a good difference when those connections between players are green

 

defensively, it looks like you have it mostly working well (the + opposition long shots feedback), but offensively it seems they are doing the same to you and limiting your offensive options to mostly long shots. CM(s) is a decent default, but a more creative/visionary role but still with a support duty could help things, see what your squad can offer that's exciting

imo with the ai managers being more reactive now it seems that a single static tactic is far less robust than it used to be, tinkering & adjustments to meet the changing opposition is now definitely a thing

 

 

[edit]

I just had a quick re-read through Cleons "what makes a goalscorer"

Advanced Forward

You can only have an attacking duty with this role. The role makes the advanced forward the focal point of attacks and he will also chase down balls and look to put pressure on the opposition’s keeper and defence from high positions on the pitch. He stays very high and doesn’t really drop back to link the midfield.

This kind of role works best in a system that has people capable of creating chances from behind the striker or in a strike partnership with a more creative striker like listed above. If you use this role then you’d expect him to be one of the primary goalscorers in the side. If not, then you have a serious supply and support issue.

Is your DLF(s) getting marked/shut down a lot ?

 

[Deserter28]

In the Wigan game we had two CCC's to their zero, so although the strikers were more isolated than I had hoped they did get some joy. My dlf has had a great season, scoring 25 goals in a struggling side; his major weakness has been getting caught offside. He has the beats offside trap as a trait, which I'm trying to train out of him, and when I initially played him as an advanced forward more or less every attack was brought to a halt by the linesman's flag. 

 

I will try the fullback \ wm switch in my next game at home to Bury who are 8th but nothing special  - I will try and be more positive in that one and focus on the attacking side a bit more.

[juusal]

On 10/02/2018 at 17:46, isignedupfornorealreason said:

Erm... Did you just completely ignore everything else he wrote so you could nitpick on one element? 

 

 

^Taken directly from the excellent Lines and Diamonds.

Counter suits what he's asking for, since he wants his players to consolidate behind the ball and be patient in defence. And once he counter attacks, he will see his players 'pour forwards' as he so wishes when the opportunity arises.

On counter attacks yes, but when the team is not on the counter they play much more pragmatically than with higher mentalities. From what I understood the aim is not to be a pure counter attacking side, but rather an attacking side on the ball and defending deep and tight when the opponent has the ball.

[permanentquandary]

Try this.

Few basic ideas:
-Very high mentality to get players forward quickly
-Very deep defensive line to defend as solidly as possible. you can add sit narrower PIs on the full backs for more solid d-line.
-1 FB on defend duty to keep 3 players back and the formation becomes 3-4-3 in attack. not too aggressive with roles and duties because you need to be solid and account for 442's weakness.
-MR player stays deeper to keep space open for STR. beckham. add in a stay wider PI here too.
-ML player drifts in to help/overlap the DLF. ryan giggs. notice how it corresponds with the holding midfielder opening space for him
-Both strikers on attack duty to maximise runs in behind from pass into space, both move into channels and dribble more,  but one drops off and holds up the ball too
-DLP(S) is a holding midfielder but on support duty to provide maximum versatility in supporting both attack and defence - can use a CM(S) here with hold position though. this is your paul scholes.
-BWM(S) to get up and down and harrass like a madman and lay it off to a wide player or the DLP - roy keane. might be worth adding less risky passes/shorter passes here
-keep a flexible shape to ensure players largely keep to their positions but also help support each other as needed, and they take risks when the time is right

i suggest editing the defensive line to be less risky in the pass

 

against teams who overlap full backs, use the clear ball to flanks shout.
 

[permanentquandary]

i made that tactic up in about 5 mins.

this is a typical end phase of my attacks. we're in blue.

[permanentquandary]

as expected. high number of opposition shots, but ineffectual. and we absolutely wrecked them on the break.

 

they were playing a deep 4231 btw

 

two of the goals came from midfielders.

[Deserter28]

Thanks PQ and Jursaal - with the BWM, does that not find him caught out of position a lot as he goes chasing the ball? I've tried BWMs before, but they have made 4-4-2 less solid; if the other team move the ball quickly  it ends up with him being by-passed. I've also always avoided extremes in mentality, almost never before FM18 starting a game on anything other than counter, standard or control; should I be braver?

My final game of the season had mixed results. A 3-2 defeat, with two superb counter attacking goals; but my slow and ageing Centre back, in the side because of injuries, gave away a penalty, missed an interception for the 87th minute winner and then picked up a second yellow. His contract is not being renewed...

Now into the close season and the battle is on to get the personnel in. I've found the perfect striker, out of contract, but he's asking for double what my top earner is getting. I'm hoping this might drop drastically (it's still May), as only Yeovil from the division below have him in their sights.

[johnnyyakuza78]

Firstly I think you need to consider the attributes of the players you are trying to fit into your tactic. Attacking fullbacks can work really well if you have the right player. But I've found them hard to come by in LLM, without retraining a winger or something. If you are looking to counter quickly then your fullbacks will have a lot of work to do to get forward, that time might mean you miss the counter opportunity. Personally I would keep them on support or defend in order to keep it tight.

The second thing to think about when creating counter tactics that rely on pace and power is that it relies quite a bit on the opposition giving you space behind them to exploit. That stops happening so often when you start rising up the league as teams defend deeper against you. 

I usually go with 2 tactics depending on the opposition. One concentrates on keeping shape and counter attacking, the other concentrates on creating space and attacking the opposition.

 

[Deserter28]

Thanks Johnny. I have not yet had to deal with any problems brought about by rising up the league   

[Deserter28]

Right, pre-season is nearly over. I've experimented a bit, and as with any proper experimentation, had mixed results. Played Fulham, from the division above, and tried to park the bus, giving up possession to get behind the ball and frustrate and hit on the break. All worked about from the hitting on the break bit - we lost 2-0, with the second one in the 89th minute, but in truth if not for my new keeper it could have been 4 or 5. Then played Wrexham from the Conference, was more positive and won 5-0.

I am wondering if team mentality is more important than I thought, and if I need to be more decisive with it. I have almost never started a game on anything other than counter, standard or control. Against Wrexham I started on counter, moving up to Standard, but my full backs and wide midfielders weren't really getting forward as much as I wanted. It was only moving to attacking that it really started to happen. Permanentquandary suggests that should be the starting point, but I wonder if that will work as well in a league game rather than a PSF. How do others decide what mentality to start with?

[jc577]

I think you need to decide whether you want to play a pure counter-attacking game (using the counter mentality), which is reserved in possession and means you’re more reliant on AI generated counter-attacks (unless you add ‘more direct passing, higher tempo etc), OR you can take the route @permanentquandary suggested and use an attacking mentality, which is inherently more risky but has much quicker transitions. 

I’m currently playing as Bournemouth, finished 6th first season using a set-up similar to PQ’s after using a counter mentality during the first part of the season and boy did things click after we made the change. The transitions are absolutely deadly, and a lot of our goals come from fast breaks. It’s a lot of fun. 

[Deserter28]

Thanks jc, high-speed transitions are the absolute key, so I might need to be braver and follow your / pq's advice. I've completed pre-season now, and I think shorter passing into space with high tempo is closer to what I want to achieve, and also playing out from the back; otherwise what I've been getting is my centre backs whacking the ball into space but with my front two isolated. I'm not using a target man and it's not an aerial game; I want the opposition turning against my quick attackers, using the space behind them.

My first game is a tricky one away at Oxford; we're 1000-1 to win the title and evens to go down apparently, and they're one of the better sides, so I think I will take a cautious approach to that one, and compare it to the following game, a Carabao cup match at home to Portsmouth. I can attack in that one and if it goes wrong, we weren't going to win that cup anyway.

 

[permanentquandary]

2 hours ago, Deserter28 said:

Thanks jc, high-speed transitions are the absolute key, so I might need to be braver and follow your / pq's advice. I've completed pre-season now, and I think shorter passing into space with high tempo is closer to what I want to achieve, and also playing out from the back; otherwise what I've been getting is my centre backs whacking the ball into space but with my front two isolated. I'm not using a target man and it's not an aerial game; I want the opposition turning against my quick attackers, using the space behind them.

My first game is a tricky one away at Oxford; we're 1000-1 to win the title and evens to go down apparently, and they're one of the better sides, so I think I will take a cautious approach to that one, and compare it to the following game, a Carabao cup match at home to Portsmouth. I can attack in that one and if it goes wrong, we weren't going to win that cup anyway.

 

i think you might be in error about the short passing. the problem that 442 has of having gaps between the lines is not only defensive, but offensive too, and you need a certain level of directness to get the ball between the lines enough and quickly.

442 relies primarily on wide players to create the chances, not the central pairing, and you need to find a way to unlock them, get them into space and pass it sometimes long to them when switching flanks etc.

i feel short passing in this system blunts the attack and struggles, particularly when so often you are outnumbered in midfield and they find it therefore easier to intercept your play when you are building attacks slowly. some direct passing negates their extra man.

and playing a fast tempo with it places a lot of burden on the technical and mental ability of your players, and you have to ask if they can cope, because they need strong off the ball, composure, technique, first touch and passing to be effective at this, not to mention the fact they need to be quick, tireless and agile physically compared to their opposition.

you dont need to go more direct passing as such, but keeping it default will do the job, and you can think about recruiting better aerial players in the long run as i did with my 442, getting in players like jackson irvine and roberto gagliardini. having wide players with good jumping is always beneficial too, especially when more often than not the opposition wide players are small of stature.

[Deserter28]

Thanks PQ, I did think initially to go more direct, but the ball was getting to the forward line so quickly that the midfield were too deep and the attacks kept fizzling out before we even got out of our half. Part of the principle is that you move the ball quicker by passing it than running with it, so shorter passes but more of them was hopefully going to mean that we can move the ball quickly and attack with numbers. Maybe I need to push the midfield further forward (FBs are already on further forward so can't do more with them). I will look at the next couple of games and refine.

[Deserter28]

Wow. The attacking plan has worked. Actually the whole thing has worked - 4 games, 3 wins and 1 draw, 14 goals for and 6 against, while playing 3 of the best teams in the division (had to play Portsmouth twice). I went on the counter mentality in game one, and that was pretty good, winning 3-1 vs Oxford. Then I went gung ho, beat Portsmouth 4-2, Burton 6-2 and then drew away at Portsmouth and but for a missed penalty would have had a 100% record. My new signings are superb, my young players up from the U-23 have goals and average ratings around 7.50 and my star striker has got 7 goals in four games.

I have slightly modified, with a solid CB - CB - CM core on defensive mentality, with one full back looking to attack and one in support; having both on attack did overdo it. I've got them playing out of defence as the back four were too keen to just hoof the ball forward aimlessly; playing out of defence but keeping them on on pass into space / mixed passing means that the ball is more often moved to the wide midfielders where I want it.

I am aware that this is not a signal that the tactic has "worked" - I thought at one stage last year, after beating Rochdale 10-0, that I had aced the game first time, before falling back into the relegation zone by February. I think you need six months of consistent performances before you can say that the tactic has bedded in and can be the basis of 2-3 seasons. But it's a decent start.

[juusal]

5 hours ago, Deserter28 said:

Wow. The attacking plan has worked. Actually the whole thing has worked - 4 games, 3 wins and 1 draw, 14 goals for and 6 against, while playing 3 of the best teams in the division (had to play Portsmouth twice). I went on the counter mentality in game one, and that was pretty good, winning 3-1 vs Oxford. Then I went gung ho, beat Portsmouth 4-2, Burton 6-2 and then drew away at Portsmouth and but for a missed penalty would have had a 100% record. My new signings are superb, my young players up from the U-23 have goals and average ratings around 7.50 and my star striker has got 7 goals in four games.

I have slightly modified, with a solid CB - CB - CM core on defensive mentality, with one full back looking to attack and one in support; having both on attack did overdo it. I've got them playing out of defence as the back four were too keen to just hoof the ball forward aimlessly; playing out of defence but keeping them on on pass into space / mixed passing means that the ball is more often moved to the wide midfielders where I want it.

I am aware that this is not a signal that the tactic has "worked" - I thought at one stage last year, after beating Rochdale 10-0, that I had aced the game first time, before falling back into the relegation zone by February. I think you need six months of consistent performances before you can say that the tactic has bedded in and can be the basis of 2-3 seasons. But it's a decent start.

Just be careful when deciding on whether it worked or not. In FM form can be very streaky, at some points everything seems to work and suddenly it all goes downhill. I'm currently on a four match losing streak (I'm predicted to get relegated so it's fine though) after winning the last seven games in a row comfortably. My point is, don't worry if during that half a season to a season you are analysing you have a few bad runs as that happens quite often in FM regardless of your tactics.