Are green/red circles for roles and duties meaningless?

[MBarbaric]

i think you are too much fixated on circles. what is really important is:

a) what a player can do

b) what you are asking him to do

What isn't important:

a) circles

 

Maybe I'll explain better with an example.

I wanted to switch from 3-5-2 to 4-4-2. The gameplan in both formations was the same:

get the CMR to make advancing runs into the box and scoring goals. Within 3-5-2 I didn't have enough through balls to the CMR as both other CMs were on his left side (CML and CM).

So switching from 3-5-2 (with CML_CM_CMR)  to 4-4-2, I decided to leave the CML alongside CMR and put my CM in MR position (so ML_CML_CMR_MR). I already knew my CM is a good playmaker able to hold onto the ball and play quick passes as well as through balls. I only moved him from CM to the RM so the CMR would have one playmaker by each side (in 4-4-2) instead of two on his left side (in 3-5-2).

CM was already 29yrs old and only had CM and DM as natural positions. When he was moved to MR he wasn't really consistent with wide playmaker role. He wouldn't come inside when we were in possession and he would frequently be out of position when we were defending. However, he slowly became awkward=>Unconincing=>Competent...all the way to natural. It took about a season to get him there but with each step he was doing more consistently what he was supposed to as a wide playmaker. he is now full green circle in position and in role familiarity.

I did the same thing with his 25yrs old cover when he was CM. he went through the same process with same symptoms. I think it took him longer and while he is natural in RM position he isn't full green in wide PM role. and I don't expect him to get there as he isn't as good. It also takes a bit of luck since players need adaptability.

I did this with numerous players (CF to LM/LW, LW to LB, DM to RB...) and I don't remember a player wouldn't be able to at least cover the position after a season or two.

 

 

 

[Primez]

16 hours ago, petertr said:

Yep, this is what I thought it must be.  I had thought "natural" meant 20, but it must not. And that's what the change is that I've been seeing.

 

As for the second point, I wonder if you get the same message when the attribute spread changes in such as way that the circles change to full green.  Hard to check that one without an editor, and comparing to an old save.

Yep, "Natural" is >18 

AFAIK, his foot quality can improve as well, improving circles (like the Role Ability star ratings).

[Andros]

I was thinking about this yesterday whilst I was making a spreadsheet to analyse players (something that I enjoy doing).  It occurred to me that perhaps this level of analysis is the kind of thing I would like FM to do in game.  What I mean is there could be an element of customization in the information it gives you when analyzing your players.  It could be interesting to be able to say to your assistant manager and your scouts that for a player to play in a particular position, I am looking at a particular set of attributes.  Now I want you to compare my players based on those attributes (and give a visual, say a green/red circle based on that comparison) and also maybe a different circle for comparison to the league as a whole.  Then if was able to further customize the comparison I could ask the assistant manager to compare all players, not just players in that position so that I could look at retraining.  Finally, being able to get customized scout reports that explain to the user which of your customized position requirements this player is suitable for, and what weaknesses he has in playing in your system.  Also, taking PPMs into consideration in the red/green circles would help (especially if you can customize that).  Obviously this would mean that I would be looking for just 1 type of player in each position, and that has flaws.  Also, I am aware that the information is there and I could change my screens to see the information (well, it might require switching between a few screens to get all the information) and that it can be argued that it is my job to analyse the players.  And to those that say that I say: fair enough, you are right.  But this kind of feature would be beneficial for me in those time when I want to find people suitable for my tactic.  I am just thinking out loud here.

[AlexJames]

Based on this thread - and others - I understand not to put too much value in the green circles, however there is something that bothers me on the subject.

I took over a team in the Championship 2 seasons ago and identified a player who was a natural as a CM(A) with full green circles.

My tactic needed a BBM, and I quite fancied this guy as one - he had half yellow circles for the role. 

For two full seasons I have trained him in the role and played him only as a BBM. 

He is still a natural CM(A) with full green circles and still has only half yellow circles for BBM.

Will this ever change? Surely after 2 full seasons he'd be somewhat approaching natural in the role?

 

[HUNT3R]

5 hours ago, alexclack said:

he'd be somewhat approaching natural in the role?

Players are already natural in any role. You're looking at role suitability. It's an indicator that gives you an idea of what a player's suitable roles could be.

5 hours ago, alexclack said:

He is still a natural CM(A) with full green circles and still has only half yellow circles for BBM.

That role suitability is based on the player's attributes. There could be one attribute that's a bit low for a BBM and he could have a better balance of attributes deemed important for a CM/A.

[AlexJames]

I understand that, just I assumed - perhaps incorrectly - that after 2 years of playing and training exclusively in one particular role that they would become MORE suitable to that role and LESS suitable to any other role.  This hasn't seemed to happen much, and in fact looking at their development, attributes that this particular player has improved in are mostly those unrelated to BBM.

Perhaps it takes longer, I dont know

Edited August 29, 2020 by AlexJames

[H_a_a_k_o_n]

Found this topic after posting a thread in tactics. Have anyone concluded anymore here, and can say yes or no to my question in bold? If I have understood you right, it will be no? A 15 year who is orginally a center midfielder (support) with half yellow will never be a whole green one? Still after lets say 5 years of practice in that specific role?

 

I am aware that this is just cosmetic.

What drives me "nuts" is players not having a solid green in the position they play. And my players are not getting to play where they are at their best, but have to adjust my precious formation.

Its my way or the highway.

That means i have to force a lot of players to play in unknown places. I am only playing LLM and youth challenge, so sometimes a lot have to play where they are not familiar. Its not always a bad thing, my 27-year old target man who is 3rd choice is excellent as center midfield. Even as he has only a small red figures on the position. He rocks actually in that position.

Trying youth challenge for the first time i am thinking that now, yes now, i can finally get those green in all my places. 

But will I?

If i train a a 15-year old midfielder who is let say half yellow on Central Midfields (support). And I on position traning  choose central midfield (support). Will he then get a solid green on Central Midfield (support) in a year, or two? or three? Or is that not the way it works?

[JordanMilly]

This is why it was changed in FM21 to have stars for the role suitability. This is because you can't train role suitability, only positional. You can train someone to be able to play CM, and their suitability for the position will impact how well they play, but their suitability for any particular role (CM Support, Mezzala, etc) will come down to the player's attributes.

[HUNT3R]

1 hour ago, H_a_a_k_o_n said:

If i train a a 15-year old midfielder who is let say half yellow on Central Midfields (support). And I on position traning  choose central midfield (support). Will he then get a solid green on Central Midfield (support) in a year, or two? or three? Or is that not the way it works?

 

I don't have FM20 installed anymore, but just as an example - lets say a CM/S has tackling, passing, positioning and decisions listed as key attributes. Lets say the player has 12, 8, 12 and 12. He's clearly lacking in one area, so won't be deemed as suitable and maybe more suited to a BWM, though that's of course not to say that you won't be able to get good performances out of the player as a CM/S.

So, say you now focus on him learning that role. It's going to focus all the attributes associated with that training schedule. All the attributes are going to get an equal focus. So you could be in a position in 2 years, where the player now has 15, 11, 15 and 15 for the four attributes. Still clearly lacking in one area, so will still probably be deemed more suitable for a BWM like role instead. In this case, focusing on passing would get that suitability for the role better as you're focusing on a reason he's not deemed as suitable.

 

[H_a_a_k_o_n]

7 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

 

I don't have FM20 installed anymore, but just as an example - lets say a CM/S has tackling, passing, positioning and decisions listed as key attributes. Lets say the player has 12, 8, 12 and 12. He's clearly lacking in one area, so won't be deemed as suitable and maybe more suited to a BWM, though that's of course not to say that you won't be able to get good performances out of the player as a CM/S.

So, say you now focus on him learning that role. It's going to focus all the attributes associated with that training schedule. All the attributes are going to get an equal focus. So you could be in a position in 2 years, where the player now has 15, 11, 15 and 15 for the four attributes. Still clearly lacking in one area, so will still probably be deemed more suitable for a BWM like role instead. In this case, focusing on passing would get that suitability for the role better as you're focusing on a reason he's not deemed as suitable.

 

Yes, its FM19. Should have mentioned that. 

Okay, so training him in exaclty that position over 10 years wont help. The game mechanic still train those 4 attributes equally. Thats not my kind of logic, but i have to accept it. Will be hard to get them all green then. 

Edited December 15, 2020 by H_a_a_k_o_n

[HUNT3R]

6 minutes ago, H_a_a_k_o_n said:

Yes, its FM19. Should have mentioned that. 

Okay, so tranining him in exaclty that position over 10 years wont help. The game mechanic still train those 4 equally. Thats not my kind of logic, but i have to accept it. Will be hard to get them all green then. 

It's something that shouldn't be taken as the be all and end all. Attributes matter most. Positional familiarity has some impact. If there's any way you can find to get past the issue of needing green circles, definitely do that. I can't recommend it enough. You can use it as a rough guide, but not more than that, imo.

I don't think you would have ever been able to watch me play earlier FMs.  Red, yellow and orange circles everywhere. In FM19 and FM20 especially, I never took notice of them at all. They were still there, but probably the least important piece of information on the screen.