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FM18 - The community formation experiment

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Last year I got a 442 sweeper and failed miserably.

This time is going to be different! Count me in!

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Well at the Winter Break I must admit I am rather pleased how it is going . . . 

TRtXPKX.png

Now I'm not a tactical genius so unfortunately I am not going to have any amazing insights of how I have got the 5-2-2-1-0 DM working but to my basic eye I think what has worked is the fact that I have set the back 5 to be just that, a back 5, no attacking fullbacks looking for overlaps. Nope. They are defenders and that is what they are there for (in this tactic) though I am set to Fluid so there is at least some 'co-operation' between the defensive/creative/attacking elements.

This then to me is where we have done well and where we lack at the same time. Individuals. We depend on them way to much. Don't get me wrong at times we play some lovely football. Possession. Pass. Move. Switch the play. BUT. Its all because we are so inherently deep in the opponents half even thought I have the DL as far up as it can go we always seem to be playing in front of the opposition defence and relying on bits of magic (mainly Clemens and Bittencourt) to unlock a defence or get a goal which is great that I have players able to turn a game but I feel success is resting far more in individuals that tactical success. Though counter the that its the tactics base that allows them to turn games instead of chasing comeback draws.

Our biggest failing. Defending Set Pieces. My god we are awful !! And nothing I try works !!

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4 hours ago, Jambo98 said:

@seanDCFC - 541

I've got a start on this and preseason went very well, this formation is unsurprisingly very solid defensively and I'm going with this tactic -

Capture5.thumb.PNG.24c61c7bb60f8600db1d111df96bf581.PNG

  Preseason went very well, winning all games and conceding none.  Hopefully it will continue like this in the competitive games. 

Capture3.thumb.PNG.f1c15d2246a2fa6623b521e3bbde158a.PNG

For my transfers I decided I needed more creativity in midfield so bought Praet and wanted another quickish CB so loaned Bonifazi and I went a bit weird with my other signing Cahill but I think he could work out well in this system.

 Capture4.thumb.PNG.c6b4a322111624bbdc24225566ca8d5a.PNG

Edited by seanDCFC

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2 hours ago, Scrench said:

Last year I got a 442 sweeper and failed miserably.

 

I know that feeling! I've now failed on my third attempt at getting that formation to work and it was getting so depressing I've returned to the Dafuge Challenge with Margate for something a bit easier :rolleyes:.

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5-3-2 WB

After playing through pre-season and getting the impression things were working I pushed ahead and played the first 5 league games of the season.

qMguVBv.png?1

I usually play youth only challenges so I am out of my depth making transfers. I ended up picking up an MC and FW capable of playing in the first team. I decided this was the most sensible approach as we will need plenty of options in these positions.

 

EHzwkaw.png

I have had success using the Mezzala role, so I wanted to base my approach around these key players. Because of this I am asking very little of my wing backs, they need to be solid defensively and be tidy in possession. The DLP acts as a pivot, linking the back three, wing backs and mezzalas, whilst covering the large gap between midfield and defence.

'Exploiting the middle' is used in most circumstances, I remove it against 2 DMs though.

I am using the attacking mentality to encourage, fast direct football, capitalising on transitions. This has played out quite well and whilst we foot the table in terms of % possession, we are creating plenty of chances.

kCwz1CI.png?1

Our performances so far have been above my expectations. Even against Bayern we had plenty of opportunities, but squandered 6 decent chances. My only frustration so far is that Timo Horn has missed 10 weeks through injury so far and is yet to play.

 

 

 

Edited by Sanno11

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5 minutes ago, warlock said:

I know that feeling! I've now failed on my third attempt at getting that formation to work and it was getting so depressing I've returned to the Dafuge Challenge with Margate for something a bit easier :rolleyes:.

Yeah that formation is clearly bugged. I might raise in the bugs forum.

Not many formations left, but you are welcome to take another draw if you want 

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56 minutes ago, Jambo98 said:

Not many formations left, but you are welcome to take another draw if you want 

Hate to admit defeat but, yeah, if there's one left - or a duplicate possibly - I'm willing to try.

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Cheers, mein herr. At first sight that looks like something I can work with - although I'll need to find a couple of extra CBs from somewhere!

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3 hours ago, Jambo98 said:

@Lufcberg22 - 4412 DM 

 

 

Part of the ethos of this thread is to give exposure to some lesser lights in the world of formations but I think that's pushing it :D

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3 minutes ago, Fosse said:

Part of the ethos of this thread is to give exposure to some lesser lights in the world of formations but I think that's pushing it :D

:D  slight typo....

@Lufcberg22 - 4411 2 DM  :D 

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Would like to take the last spot if it's still available! 

 

Noooo hadn't read above fully, missed it :(

Edited by liam9sufc

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6 hours ago, liam9sufc said:

Would like to take the last spot if it's still available! 

 

Noooo hadn't read above fully, missed it :(

 

No worries, we can just go round all the formations again, no issue if 2 people are doing the same setup. To be fair, of the 50 who have signed up, im pretty sure less than half have actuall posted since so.....

Gimme 5 and il wipe down the list and start again for ya 

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5-2-1-2 WB

Into November and we're still inconsistent. When it works, it's playing almost exactly like it should (allowing for this not being the original Herrera formation, and for 50 years of evolution since). This goal against Braunschweig in the cup was pretty much exactly what I'd hoped for:

goal.thumb.jpeg.2f4282313de6208efdc2fcda0579c62d.jpeg

Some head tennis after their goal kick sees our IWB(a) - #17 (Clemens) - steal the ball off their right mid and immediately lay it off to the BPD - #3 (Heintz) - in centre defence. He passes it out to the DCL #4 (Mere),  while Clemens starts moving on the attack. Mere knocks it up to him and he takes a couple of touches before laying it off to the DLP(d) - #6 (Hoger) - while still on the move up the pitch. Hoger pauses a moment before passing it to the BBM - #14 (Hector) - and from here's it's one-touch passing. Hector hits it long to Clemens, who ignores their wing back running at him and tucks it infield first time to the F9 - #13 (Osako) - who's dropped off deeper into space in front of Braunschweig's back three. When the ball heads for Osako, two of the three DCs run to close him down, leaving one back in position to play our #9, Cordoba, onside. Osako plays a lovely first-time through ball for him to run onto. First time shot and a great goal. (Easier to show in video/gif form, of course, but FM's highlight recorder seems to be bust, on mine at least.)

But too often we're pedestrian coming forward - the IWB(a) and the WB(d) on the opposite flank aren't hugely dissimilar in their movement - and somewhat prone to shooting early and shooting wide, with or without Work Ball Into Box. Defensively, we're mostly OK, but while switching to a SS breaking through two deeper forwards seems to have improved things, we're vulnerable to the narrow and frustrating 1-0 loss because our attacks are too often wayward. P10 W4 D2 L4 F7 A6 in the league (with four of our seven coming in the last three games) tells its own story.

On the upside, 10th place is still better than Bayern are doing...

Edited by cregan

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Does anyone have any decent defensive set piece set ups? Especially corners?

Although its not actually tactic related in terms of what the thread is about it is currently my single biggest point of frustration with where I am at the moment with this challenge.

Edited by reerdo

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Yeah i am getting murdered by corners goals :( That and goals from crosses are literally ruining this save for me 

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We just absolutely dominated Dortmund all round. Actually it was one of our best displays all seasons and yet again I lose to a damn corner being one of their only attempts on goal. I wish I had of kept a full tally of the number of times its happened where conceding set pieces has resulted in a loss or a would be win becoming a draw. I must be nearly at double figures.

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33 minutes ago, reerdo said:

Does anyone have any decent defensive set piece set ups? Especially corners?

Although its not actually tactic related in terms of what the thread is about it is currently my single biggest point of frustration with where I am at the moment with this challenge.

From memory, I have:

  • Both WBs (or whatever you have) on the posts.
  • Three DCs (and/or bigger defensive guys) zonally marking the near post centre, centre, far post centre.
  • Two MCs and the bigger ST (whoever's left from everything else) set to go back/whatever the non-man-mark instruction in the box is.
  • AMC (or main creative outlet) on the edge of the box to cover for someone lurking on the edge, or to start a counter.
  • One ST (preferably someone quick, able to chase down a long ball, and/or tall) staying forward as an outlet.

I've used variants throughout FM18 (occasionally with one of the three 'back in the box' guys set to cover the short corner) and it seems to do pretty well, all things considered. I don't think I've conceded any at all from corners this save, though that's probably more a factor of not conceding many at all; on my main save with a much more attacking system, I've conceded a few but generally not enough to think I need to change.

Free kicks I quite often shift one ST/advanced player out of the wall and tell them to stay forward, again as an outlet, but otherwise leave those on default.

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19 minutes ago, cregan said:

From memory, I have:

  • Both WBs (or whatever you have) on the posts.
  • Three DCs (and/or bigger defensive guys) zonally marking the near post centre, centre, far post centre.
  • Two MCs and the bigger ST (whoever's left from everything else) set to go back/whatever the non-man-mark instruction in the box is.
  • AMC (or main creative outlet) on the edge of the box to cover for someone lurking on the edge, or to start a counter.
  • One ST (preferably someone quick, able to chase down a long ball, and/or tall) staying forward as an outlet.

I've used variants throughout FM18 (occasionally with one of the three 'back in the box' guys set to cover the short corner) and it seems to do pretty well, all things considered. I don't think I've conceded any at all from corners this save, though that's probably more a factor of not conceding many at all; on my main save with a much more attacking system, I've conceded a few but generally not enough to think I need to change.

Free kicks I quite often shift one ST/advanced player out of the wall and tell them to stay forward, again as an outlet, but otherwise leave those on default.

Cheers Cregan, going to give that a go now will report back once I have had a few games.

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1 hour ago, reerdo said:

Does anyone have any decent defensive set piece set ups? Especially corners?

Although its not actually tactic related in terms of what the thread is about it is currently my single biggest point of frustration with where I am at the moment with this challenge.

Try this, haven't conceded a corner this season so far. I didn't create this btw.

Capture9.thumb.PNG.b44c78e3ee99a5b0fd4d0ad2b2dd20fe.PNG

 

Edited by seanDCFC

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1 hour ago, reerdo said:

Does anyone have any decent defensive set piece set ups? Especially corners?

Although its not actually tactic related in terms of what the thread is about it is currently my single biggest point of frustration with where I am at the moment with this challenge.

I don't have anyone at the posts, one guy at the near side of the six yard box, one on the far side, center backs marking tall, three players go back, a playmaker or a pacy winger just outside the box and two strikers/attacking players upfront. Sometimes I seem to score more goals from their corners than they do since it can be really deadly on the counter.

Another main point for me is that the guys at the posts rarely save anything, even when the ball goes near them, so I find them pretty useless. I'd rather have them winning headers.

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Have managed to reach the mid point in our season. Winter break and exactly 17 of 34 games played in the league, plus Europa Group Stage complete.

The Results

8095d77de35a89dce332efc7a44cce66.pngbb5bcb08fe73887f0d24790afc79d64f.png

4d474dbab875f05ad9857e2fc7f3ee43.png

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So overall got to be pleased with things. In the top 4, through in the Europa and still in the cup. 

The Performances 

eb47b59133cd5e162a22e815479783d0.png

 

The attacking players have been outstanding. The DLF(a) / DF(d) combo has worked brilliantly with Bendetto an absolute goal machine and Cordoba doing great as a link man. He is a big fella and scored a good few headers but his key passes stat and his 8 assists are pleasing. The W(a) who roams has also worked out really well, with both players (Bittencourt and Clemens) performing great, although both have missed chunks due to injury. Jojic in the WP(s) role has also been consistently good, lots of key passes, not many assists but often the instigator or involved.  Jonas Hector with 6 assist from LB also is lovely, although at a price.

On  the flip side, defensively we are poor, which on the face of things is surprising, since visually the low block with 4 men works really well. We seem to have gotten over our initial issues at RB by making him FB(d) and although the LB is very attacking, we have 2 DMs. So why so poor? Well, lets see.....

The tactic - analysis 

First thing is to take a look at the assists map: 

ee2423947db7cf37103958cefe3204c0.png

Well, lets start on the defensive side, since i have no concerns on the attacking side (interesting note - we scored 22 from crosses, but only 15 assists from the flanks - we score some goals from one striker to the other cross types / cut backs from within the box -nice)/

2 things jump out at me:

1)  We have conceded an eye-watering 13 goals from set pieces. Out of 33 total that is simply a shambles of Liverpool-esque proportions. I have tried to address recently by looking at my defending set-piece setup and hopefully we can start to improve that. Otherwise we risk being sunk by something which has little or nothing to do with the tactic

2) We are clearly vulnerable to crosses from our LB area. This is not a huge surprise since we are attacking on that flank, but watching back the goals, the WP is as much the issue as the WB. The WP does not do much defensively, is often drifting in-field when we dont have the ball which gives no cover to Hector. I do not want to sacrifice the WP, as he adds so much to us, and i doubt i can do much with PI. I could use specific man marking or OI on opposing wide men and will think about that. The other option is to consider whether the left sided DM could have his role changed to help this situation. I have some thoughts on that i might play around with.

 

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Look who we got in the quarter finals . . . . 

dItHWLj.png

. . . . and that will be the end of our European adventure.

@Jambo98 I love reading your updates. I wish I had the vision and in game knowledge to have such good updates.

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On 1/30/2018 at 11:34, cregan said:

There seem to be two main issues with the system itself so far.

One is at WBL, where the inverted wing back doesn't seem to do anything like as much inverting as I'd hoped, even playing right-footed wingers (Clemens, who even has the PPM for it, or Bittencourt) there. The only time that position has contributed anything is one cross from Rausch late on against Erndtebruck in the cup, and that's hardly something to shout about. Most of the key play seems to come through the AMC, which on the one hand is good, but on the other hand hasn't been good enough.

The IWB role seems to play pretty much like a regular WB when he is the only player covering his flank. He will play a bit narrower, but you won't really see him tucking into midfield ahead of your DLP-D.

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13 hours ago, joshhimself said:

The IWB role seems to play pretty much like a regular WB when he is the only player covering his flank. He will play a bit narrower, but you won't really see him tucking into midfield ahead of your DLP-D.

Yeah, that does seem so. It's a shame - I last had a stab at a catenaccio system I think in FM15, back when there was no IWB but you could tell CWBs to cut inside et al., and the Facchetti role, with no one ahead of him on the left, worked really well, particularly with a right-footed left back. 

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5-3-2 WB

Here is my mid-season update, I would have been much less inclined to do this had our results been rubbish!

Results

BWUAj8p.png?1oZoHulr.png

XrKrlxv.png?1

I am shocked by how well we are doing. That isn't me being modest, I really haven't spent much time trying to understand why it is working as well as it is. Our simple set up hasn't changed from my opening post. I find that the majority of our goals come from fast counter attacks. The set-up really allows direct forward passing and despite the speed at which we attack, I find that players are rarely isolated. I don't expect this to be the picture after the last game, so I thought it's best to post this now and at least I will always have this.

We have drawn Athletic Bilbao in the next round of the Europa.

Performances

PNrVJWJ.png

 

In my ignorance of the Koln squad I have just been sticking with players who perform well. I feel bad for players like Bittencourt, Clemens and Risse who I have shunned in favour of the more defensive wing backs, Klunter and Hector.  Cordoba has been in great form and just scored his 20th goal of the season so far.

 

Edited by Sanno11

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Well that's season 1 in the books for the enigmatic 5-2-2-1-0 DM, and I am actually rather please with how things turned out

ARJmU7f.png

I know it means we miss out on Europe but that is no bad thing as I hated Thursday night games as it really ruined freshness for the weekend fixtures. Talking about European football though, all I can say is the lads done me proud

tuHI1CS.png

After topping our group we went on to beat Nice and Ajax in the first two knockout rounds before being drawn against the mighty Real Madrid in the Quarter Finals. I wasn't confident and was worried the trouncing we would receive would ruin confidence for the league but do you know what, we lost but my god the lads done me proud, we were never the dominated underdogs I expected us to be and we had a few more chances ourselves that if only we converted !! Annoyingly the 3-1 flattered them as that was in the 94th minute when I was pushing for an equaliser !!

HuOAURm.png

To round up a few other bits we done a bit in the transfer market across the season but not loads, the major happening was Hector leaving for £39million to Man City

or0cw8g.png

I'm really excited about Emre Ozalp who I just signed on a free and is only 14 and to me looks amazing for his age

INVfstK.png

I have mentioned previously that this tactic lives and dies by the talent of the plays and isn't some wonder formation that will get any old team playing with the main two in my eyes that have shouldered the responsibility the most being Bittencourt and Clemens and I think the below shot pretty much sums it up

QQ9olw1.png

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31 minutes ago, Sanno11 said:

Here is my mid-season update

Very well done! And I'm impressed with the performances you're getting from the defenders - they've been more or less rubbish for me.

I think I'm doing better with the 343dm formation, although some of our performances cast doubt on that. Some random observations:

1. None of the strikers seems to thrive as a lone forward. While I was getting decent or very good performances from all of the strikers in a pairing, only Cordoba has produced any quality on his own, and Pizarro has been downright awful.

2. I'm only half-a-dozen games into the season, but results have been mixed. Once again, pre-season was a walk in the park. Then from the opening league games we lost to Dortmund and Bayern, but beat Hamburg and BMG. Then in an appalling display we lost to bottom-of-the-table Augsburg - immediately followed by a brilliant 2-0 victory over RBL. :idiot:

3. I'm amazed at the lack of quality in this squad. We're among the worst in the league for first touch, passing, dribbling and technique. Well below average for decisions, vision and anticipation (we are best in the league for heading and throw-ins!) My main save is with Wolves and I have to say that very few of this Koln team would have made it into the Wolves Championship squad, and certainly not now that we're in the Premiership.

4. Having said all that, I think with the right tactical setup they are capable of winning another Europa League spot. It's a question of getting the whole to be greater than the sum of the parts. It's interesting that Sanno11 is succeeding with an attacking mentality, because that's what I'm trying now and it delivered the wins against BMG and RBL, although it failed utterly against Augsburg. Contrarily, a more cautious counter approach against Dortmund and Bayern was toothless going forward and inadequate in defence. But it's probably too early to say which of those six results is a fair reflection of the reality, and which - if any - were random results. Time will tell.

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On 30/01/2018 at 23:03, Jambo98 said:

Yeah that formation is clearly bugged. I might raise in the bugs forum.

Not many formations left, but you are welcome to take another draw if you want 

How is it bugged?

It's a really specialised formation that no team uses in real life, it's not supposed to be good.

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15 minutes ago, juusal said:

It's a really specialised formation that no team uses in real life, it's not supposed to be good.

You're saying it's not bugged, it's deliberately useless? Okay.

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2 minutes ago, warlock said:

You're saying it's not bugged, it's deliberately useless? Okay.

Well maybe it shouldn't be on the formation list, but not every formation should work in the game, it's meant to be a simulation of football and if something does not work IRL it shouldn't work in the game. It doesn't work, so what? It's a bad formation, maybe excluding some very specific squads/situations, it is not meant to work, very well at least.

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Its bugged because it leads to 2 defenders standing on top of each other, with no way to change that. 

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1 minute ago, Jambo98 said:

Its bugged because it leads to 2 defenders standing on top of each other, with no way to change that. 

The formation is literally two defenders on top of each other? If you don't want that, don't put two players on top of each other, but them side by side?

Yes, the formation should probably be removed from the list of formations as it's not realistic. Yes, you should be able to have a midfielder step out into the midfield like a libero, especially in back threes. Yes, center backs should be much smarter when covering spaces in behind, so many issues with that I don't even want to get started. But those are not formation specific issues, and the formation in itself would most likely have similar issues in real life than in FM.

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19 hours ago, reerdo said:

To round up a few other bits we done a bit in the transfer market across the season but not loads, the major happening was Hector leaving for £39million to Man City

or0cw8g.png

 

 

On 1/20/2018 at 17:25, Jambo98 said:

General Principles 

[...]

  • Inward transfers limited to 2 permanent signings, one loan signing (a bit arbitrary, but its how i vaguely remember the original thread)

*delicate cough* Level playing field, and all that... *delicate cough*

That said, still impressive work with a formation that looked like an absolute dog to get clicking together, and Ozalp looks ridiculously good for his age. :thup:

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5-2-1-2 WB

Halfway point in the season - just a game against Hertha in the cup to go before the winter break - and I'm mostly happy with progress. The current form of the standard tactic seems to be mostly working except against wide, aggressive teams - and we notched up thoroughly pleasing wins against then-table toppers Mainz 3-0 and Bayern 2-1. The latter was particularly pleasing; we were 1-0 up and they hadn't threatened when Ozcan was sent off on 60 minutes. We promptly went 2-0 up, Cordoba playing in Clemens at WBL for a classic counter goal. Bayern pulled one back on 83 minutes, but we easily kept them at bay; they only had 3 shots on target all match and barely even touched the ball in our area.

The football is gloriously hideous, though we have started to leak more goals than before; a slight concern, despite still having the joint second best defence in the league.

leaguehalfway.thumb.jpeg.31ccf4b0331b8d60caf89472b7d4cf80.jpeg

I've also settled on an alternative approach that keeps to many of the same core principles for when we need to be more aggressive and chase a game. 2-0 down at half time against Dortmund, barely having had a foot on the ball, the switch pulled us back to 2-2 and threatening a winner before they got a lucky breakaway in the 89th minute to beat us 3-2.

tactics-chase.thumb.jpeg.63ca89dc2c6074b891d476f1b4713633.jpeg

The switch to Attacking/Much Deeper D-Line instead of Defend/Higher D-Line makes us noticeably quicker on the transition and able to draw the counter, while the switch to the WB roles and duties gives more width and adventure down both flanks, and I've dropped passing down a notch to Mixed to account for the naturally increased tempo compared to our usual grind. It's not as tight at the back, obviously, but because we're still Highly Structured it's not completely gung-ho.

Risse keeps getting injured, but is otherwise proving an excellent SS (3 goals, 5 assists in 11(3) apps), while Guirassy picked up a four-week injury in our last game to thankfully coincide with the winter break; his pace, height and power make him an ideal partner to Cordoba in a counter-based system and he's got 9 goals, 2 assists in 12(4) apps. The other three strikers - Pizarro, Osako and Zoller - aren't cut out for it at all

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57 minutes ago, cregan said:

 

*delicate cough* Level playing field, and all that... *delicate cough*

That said, still impressive work with a formation that looked like an absolute dog to get clicking together, and Ozalp looks ridiculously good for his age. :thup:

Oops I totally missed that. Ah now I feel like I have slightly cheated. Going to reload this and start again fresh and do it properly. 

Thanks for pointing it out. 

Note to self, bloody read things properly. 

Edited by reerdo

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343dm December 2017

So the halfway point of the season and things are looking up in Koln.

BVQc2Cf.png?1

Sitting in fifth place, although I'm slightly disappointed because we sat in fourth for most of November and then two defeats in our most recent three matches have cost us valuable points. As expected, Bayern are running away with the league, but we're only three points off second place (and equally three points off ninth!)

After a mixed start to the season, October saw us take off an a brilliant run of nine league games without defeat, and wins in the German and Europa Cups. A final home win over Athletic Bilbao saw us clinch top spot in our Europa group and we have a knockout round against Everton to look forward to.

6FhiYL5.png?1

And here's the tactic:

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It doesn't take a tactical genius to spot that empty acreage between the DM and AM lines, hence the use of two Segundo Volantes. Together with the two WBs on support, they do a good job of patrolling that space as well as being well-placed to recycle possession if our attacks run out of steam. The WBs drop back in defence forming a solid bank of five while the SVs harrass the opposition midfield. I've tried the AMs on support duty to encourage them to defend when necessary, but it leaves us woefully underpowered in attack so I've settled on leaving them on attack (the RMD is a recent experiment - jury's still out). We're still vulnerable to a diagonal ball behind the WBs and the resulting cross into the box. You'd think three CBs could deal with that, but they can't, and it's cost us a lot of goals.

The two big issues (which I don't think are related to the tactic or formation) are the shocking inability of these players to pass the ball, and inconsistency. We currently rank absolute bottom of the league for pass completion, and second bottom for possession. Despite playing with a lower tempo, shorter passing and work ball, we regularly 'enjoy' 40-45% possession stats. As for the consistency, Bittencourt's last four appearances saw ratings of 9.7, 6.8, 8.0, 6.1. For Cordoba it's 6.3, 7.1, 6.6, 9.1. And it's the same across the team. The result is that we rarely play well as a unit - when someone shines, someone else is rotten, when the defence perform we can't score, and when the front three play well we can't defend.

But as the basis for a good tactic, I think this formation has a lot going for it. It's like a slightly deeper version of Conte's 343 at Chelsea playing as a 523 in the defensive phase, and a 334 in attack. With better players it could do very well indeed. Speaking of players, I made no transfers of any kind in the first window but I'm hoping to do some business in January. The board have upped the budget to £4m, and Osako is listed and drawing interest, which should bring in a few million more. I'm hoping that a decent CB, and someone who's at least accomplished in the SV role, should help us push on and cement a top four finish. 

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On 02/02/2018 at 16:31, juusal said:

The formation is literally two defenders on top of each other? If you don't want that, don't put two players on top of each other, but them side by side?

Yes, the formation should probably be removed from the list of formations as it's not realistic. Yes, you should be able to have a midfielder step out into the midfield like a libero, especially in back threes. Yes, center backs should be much smarter when covering spaces in behind, so many issues with that I don't even want to get started. But those are not formation specific issues, and the formation in itself would most likely have similar issues in real life than in FM.

That’s not the point of this challenge though. The point is to play the default formation, so he can’t move the defenders.

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1 hour ago, craiigman said:

That’s not the point of this challenge though. The point is to play the default formation, so he can’t move the defenders.

Of course, nothing wrong with the challenge. My point is purely that just because a formation doesn't work, it doesn't mean that it is bugged, simply because some formations are not good or require very high specialisation.

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Just now, juusal said:

Of course, nothing wrong with the challenge. My point is purely that just because a formation doesn't work, it doesn't mean that it is bugged, simply because some formations are not good or require very high specialisation.

Right, but surely the formation shouldn’t play out as it does? It makes no footballing sense to have both defenders stand on top of each other, as this leaves the half-spaces on both side completely vacant, hence why the formation is bugged. One would think the ME would understand this aspect of football and compensate for the starting positions of the central defenders, allowing them to move laterally and cover the spaces.

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13 minutes ago, jc577 said:

Right, but surely the formation shouldn’t play out as it does? It makes no footballing sense to have both defenders stand on top of each other, as this leaves the half-spaces on both side completely vacant, hence why the formation is bugged. One would think the ME would understand this aspect of football and compensate for the starting positions of the central defenders, allowing them to move laterally and cover the spaces.

How should it play then? I agree that there is not footballing sense, hence why I think the formation is bad. The formation literally IS two defenders on top of each other. I also agree that central defenders (and all other players as well tbf) do not cover properly laterally, and we should at least have the option to tell them to do so. Overall we have way too few tools at our disposal for defensive positioning, compared to all sorts of different things that are possible to do to the attacking shape.

Anyway, my point is that if you place two defenders on top of each other and they play on top of each other, it does not mean that there is a bug. Especially that this specific formation would be bugged, as I think the issue is the same with any SW-CD combo. Rather the issue is the lack of features in the game to adjust your defensive shape. 

 

Edit. Just to add, both the sweeper and the central defender play the way they are designed to play, so it's not a bug. You can say it's a badly done feature in the game though, in which case I agree, but it's not restricted to this specific combo or formation.

Edited by juusal

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