Let's talk about the midfield

[Guest El Payaso]

Was watching some Match of the Day type of highlights from TV today and what I noticed that once again in this round of fixtures really many goals came from quick breaks where teams either win the ball back high up the pitch or lower and then with quick breaks exploit the spaces that the team that has lost possession is now leaving. In FM I simply don't see those type of goals because for me it's extremely rare to see teams actually win the ball back in any other way but some stupid passing decision by the other team. This stupid passing decision usually is an overly optimistic switch to another flank which is easily intercepted. When I watch some slow tempo build-ups in the ME it seems that the midfield defending is really ineffective: multiple players shifting to close down the ball carrier, leaving spaces to other players and by that never winning it back. 

What I have noticed with Swansea City that building from the back seems to be really easy as you can reach the halfway line with really much ease. The goalkeeper plays the ball to centre backs, who find the DM and he can once again pass it to the more advanced midfielders. This basically happens without any resistance as there isn't a high block closing down in the game and also the opposition midfielders don't seem to be interested to even mark those more advanced midfielders at the halfway line. My players are constantly summing up more than 100 pass attempts with more than 90% success rate and I have even seen Alaves' midfielders doing that against Barcelona while Katai (off the ball and aticipation around 13) is so calledly marked by Sergio Busquets. I think that for example Silva and de Bruyne sum something between 60-80 per game in real life so I don't think that teams fighting against relegation should clearly exceed those numbers as City in real life are one of the most possession based teams in the world.

What also is worrying about this is the fact that even though the midfield looks like an open highway the CMs are still lacking goals and assists. Paulinho and Dele Alli for example (I have edited Paulinho to be an excellent attacking minded CM) scored zero goals in my first season in about 20 league games, Pogba got zero too in the Premier league and Fabregas had 0 assists and 0 goals too and so on. Also watching teams like Manchester City play was really uninspiring as de Bruyne and Silva didn't seem to have anything to do with how they created chances. Fabregas had lot of the ball against me but that was the only thing I could see from him. They are just playing basic passes and never rushing forward while in real life that is vital for Manchester City. Also players like Yaya Toure and Frank Lampard etc. were really active getting inside the opposition penalty area in their day and Dele Alli especially is continuing that tradition. 

4-4-2's dominance in terms of the AI also tells you a story that even world class teams playing with 3 midfielders in the middle cannot exploit that man advantage that they have. I have seen Bournemouth destroying teams like Liverpool and Arsenal with a 4-4-2 and Atlético doing the same in CL for Barcelona and PSG whom they beat 5-1 at Madrid. Surely teams should be able to take advantage of that man advantage that they get in the middle of the park as in 4-4-2 the strikers do not drop into the midfield to defend.

Surely the midfield should be more dynamic and better balanced? I can post some examples when I have time to do it. Meanwhile you can find my thread of midfield defending from the bugs area. Let's make this a conversation like there was with the long shots so that this might actually wake SI up and realize that this is a big issue within the game.

[Guest El Payaso]

I uploaded this .pkm of my first league game of the season and still the same laws apply here. Especially Newcastle midfield is summing absolutely huge amount of pass attempts with more than 90% success rate. The teams are incredible good at playing the ball along the floor in "tight" spaces (that the midfield defending cannot recreate). The only turnarounds basically come from those few missed passes and once again the midfield is basically unable to take advantage of that free space. In real life I have seen games where there might be 3-4 turnarounds in the midfield during one minute while in this game I struggle to find that amount in 90 minutes. And once again especially for Newcastle all chances are created from crosses.

Newcastle v Swansea.pkm

[RBKalle]

I really admire your determination (and your optimism)...

I've noticed too an abundance of pointless passes in midfield. Whether there is space to exploit or not, CMs on any role/duty will still prefer to play it safe or to add an extra pass or two. I guess we're back to the old "why players don't do what TI and PI tell them to?" debate, with the equally usual touch of "that's what the ME favours this year/build" in terms of redundant short passing.

BTW, did you notice slower players, e.g. Fabregas, being less effective and even more of a hindrance to a quick transition from defense to attack? I haven't signed or played a player with single-digits Acc and Pace in like 7-8 years of FM, but I was wondering if this possession-heavy iteration may be a bit more forgiving toward aging, slow but technical players...

P.S. What about "we're being seriously overrun in midfield" Ass-man advice?! I've had it with a DM + 3CM setup...

[Guest El Payaso]

I guess it never hurts to have a conversation but I'm not actually being optimistic or even determined. Not after everything I have experienced as a tester. 

I haven't really noticed a difference as the midfielders aren't actually doing anything. Saw couple of runs forward from Alli but even on comprehensive highlights I didn't see anything from Pogba or Fabregas as all of the AI teams just bombard the ball in from the flanks and the midfielders are having a cup of tea or something together. 

The midfield of course influences on crossing too as the midfielders are just able to wait for the overlaps and then find the wide players and there is no fear of getting caught in possession. Well "luckily" the excessive amount of offsides from full backs 'balances' this. 

[robbo877]

Let me preface this by saying this is by no means a 'it's your tactics, mate' post - I'm just going to offer some anecdotal evidence from my current save.

I found similar issues to you, I was playing 4-3-3 and 4-4-2 variations for a few saves and generally found my striker would score almost all the goals and all the assists would come from the wingers or full backs from crosses.

I was searching for an attractive brand of football that could score different types of goals spread around the whole team. 

I finally found it in a 4-5-1 with the following setup:

--------------------CF(s)-------------------------

IW(a)--AP(a)--BWM(d)--BBM(s)--IW(a)

FB(s)--------CB(d)------CB(d)--------FB(s)

Playing on standard and fluid. I'll post screenshots later when I'm on the other laptop of the formation and the player stats if you are interested but the following things happen with this setup:

- We dominate possession (average 55%)

- We score lots of goals through the middle

- We're a threat on the counter - the BBM and BWM win the ball back quite often and start a transition

- Goals and assists are spread really evenly through the team - particularly the IW and BBM surging late into the box and scoring

- The AP(a) is the heartbeat of the team, playing deeper he has lots of passing options but can also run with the ball - has a lot of assists

I guess what I am saying is that I completely agree with your points and was having the same struggles but found a point solution. I think the key is a deeper formation with multiple attack duties which I believe is how a lot of top teams play IRL but I'm certainly no tactics guru. I think a lot of people would try and set Man City up to mirror real life as a 4-3-3 with high wingers when actually it would be a deeper 4-1-4-1 but with lots of attack duties and probably KDB as a RPM.

[Guest El Payaso]

55 minutes ago, robbo877 said:

I guess what I am saying is that I completely agree with your points and was having the same struggles but found a point solution. I think the key is a deeper formation with multiple attack duties which I believe is how a lot of top teams play IRL but I'm certainly no tactics guru. I think a lot of people would try and set Man City up to mirror real life as a 4-3-3 with high wingers when actually it would be a deeper 4-1-4-1 but with lots of attack duties and probably KDB as a RPM.

I'm basically doing the same and the 4-1-4-1 that I play with I would say that 80% of my goals make sense and I think that my MC(A) is the main creator within the team. Probably if I would use someone like Pogba or Alli in this role they would create and score decent amount. But what the AI does is not anywhere near that. For example Paulinho, Dele Alli, Pogba and Fábregas did nothing during that half a season that I managed. With Paulinho I edited him heavile: creating close to Yaya Toure at his prime type of player with traits like 'gets into opposition area' and with high off the ball, anticipation and finishing+composure. The movement from the CMs, the pass variation and the shooting quality of course play a role here as for example on Monday Paul Pogba got two more assists to increase his tally to 9 in the Premier league and both of those goals that he got the assists on were not even HCs but nice finishes: Valencia with his weaker foot just inside the area and Martial from long distance. 

In midfield defending the easiest way to see the problems is to use the short delivery option from the goalkeeper as that will basically show you how easy it is to build from the back and reach the halfway line and even more advanced areas without any resistance. That would be easily made harder by some basic marking in the halfway line but the CMs and FBs are not interested in doing that and I guess that SI don't find that important as they have ignored my examples on those issues for several versions of the game. Same goes with the 'prevent short delivery' tactical instruction which maybe worked last time in FM 2013 or 2014. Why add that tactical instruction in the game when it does nothing (and same goes with for example tight marking)?

Same issues by the way seem to influence also if the AI uses MR/MLs instead of AMR/AMLs. I have taken 4-2-3-1 completely out as a formation from the AI and this has for example stopped Salah scoring completely and same goes with for example Juanmi (Real Sociedad player regularly scoring in real life) and players like Muniain. I am also seeing that in Jonathan Viera and Ayew as they are quite passive running into the channels that they could run into and by that get more chances to score and assist more. In previous versions I basically always had my WM(A) even as my main goalscorer but it seems that their movement nowadays is much more passive on regular basis.

This on the other hand is good example of midfielders pushing forward aggressively. You can see that the Barcelona midfielders are really aggressive rushing inside the penalty area especially on quick breaks and they even get higher than the attacking duo Messi and Suarez on many occasions and same goes with the wingbacks too and Marcos Alonso is also a good example of this (if players is told to roam then he should roam and if the player is told to be aggressive getting forward then he should). Also Canales is quite involved in terms of getting chances don't you think...

[Toonrock]

On 14/1/2018 at 19:54, El Payaso said:

4-4-2's dominance in terms of the AI also tells you a story that even world class teams playing with 3 midfielders in the middle cannot exploit that man advantage that they have. I have seen Bournemouth destroying teams like Liverpool and Arsenal with a 4-4-2 and Atlético doing the same in CL for Barcelona and PSG whom they beat 5-1 at Madrid. Surely teams should be able to take advantage of that man advantage that they get in the middle of the park as in 4-4-2 the strikers do not drop into the midfield to defend.

I so much agree with you - Well-written ..The AI 4-4-2 is exaggerating good against strong competent teams, my Lazio side (with through-out decent players and a very good otherwise performing 3-5-2, got their a** kicked 6-0 by Red Bull Leipzig and a standard 4-4-2... (All the games I played that season, I got scored against very rarely).

Really needs tweaking

[Guest El Payaso]

5 minutes ago, Toonrock said:

I so much agree with you - Well-written ..The AI 4-4-2 is exaggerating good against strong competent teams, my Lazio side (with through-out decent players and a very good otherwise performing 3-5-2, got their a** kicked 6-0 by Red Bull Leipzig and a standard 4-4-2... (All the games I played that season, I got scored against very rarely).

Really needs tweaking

But the question is: do SI find it important/possible to tweak as the support forward overpower has been in the game at least since FM 2015... I have posted more than enough examples on that issue too without a response. Could even upload my save for them to take a look at Bournemouth and Atlético Madrid especially. Both team struggling especially with their attack in real life and Atlético beating someone like Barca and PSG with 5-1 is totally absurd as in real life their only way to beat them would be through excellent defensive performances.

[Toonrock]

3 minutes ago, El Payaso said:

But the question is: do SI find it important/possible to tweak as the support forward overpower has been in the game at least since FM 2015... I have posted more than enough examples on that issue too without a response. Could even upload my save for them to take a look at Bournemouth and Atlético Madrid especially. Both team struggling especially with their attack in real life and Atlético beating someone like Barca and PSG with 5-1 is totally absurd as in real life their only way to beat them would be through excellent defensive performances.

I really think you should do this, uploading the PKM(s) in the Match Engine-bugs forum.

[Guest El Payaso]

14 minutes ago, Toonrock said:

I really think you should do this, uploading the PKM(s) in the Match Engine-bugs forum.

They are there, just not reviewed. 

[Guest El Payaso]

Dele Alli

Paul Pogba

Mesut Özil

Paulinho

Assists

Chances created

Probably for example SI this tells nothing but for me this tells a really sad and repetitive story about the state of the engine. Midfielders and even some AMs being way off from their real life stats while even poor wingers and strikers are being really successful. At the moment for example Nakhi Wells and Troy Deeney are going with goal per game pace. Of course for example in Spanish La Liga wide players are strong in the assists charts but you also have to look at how they get their assists as Spanish football in general is different compared to the English in real life. Teams are finding it too easy to get into crossing positions and to the edge of the area to pass the ball around and that is where the wingers AMs and STs shine while MCs are not doing anything.

 

[shadster]

This is what I really don't understand here. It seems it's better to make some rant threads, they will get more attention and answers, than threads by some users, with some valid points, that could result in good discussions. For me, ME has evolved so much, became the great part of the game and has so room to improve, that this kind of threads should be valued. Don't know if there is stuff in the past, but I find really hard to undertand why this @El Payaso threads get so ignored by mods and other people, that usually contribute to very good discussions.

 

About the subject, I always saw the game, specially last few years as you describe, it's a great trend to flanks football. But I like that way, and I'm very limited at tactic setup. I'm sure people like Rashidi and Cleon and many others can arrange or force their teams to have the heart of play on center. I never saw my teams do that. My working mildfielders usually have great games and classifications, My center creative players, not so much, as the core game don't go through them.

[Guest El Payaso]

4 hours ago, shadster said:

but I find really hard to undertand why this @El Payaso

[MBarbaric]

3 ore fa, shadster ha scritto:

I find really hard to undertand why this @El Payaso threads get so ignored by mods and other people,

i think it is because the topic has been discussed in length and depth over years and, basically, lot has been said without a response. despite the length and the depth of discussion, the ME is basically the same regarding these issues. that is the best and most valid response one can get.

[HUNT3R]

27 minutes ago, El Payaso said:

Because to "them" I am just a person who "raises every defensive mistake he sees. Even though defenders make mistakes in real life". (almost a direct quote from one of the staff members from SI. Pretty insulting claims though...)

El Payaso, if you have an issue with someone, take it up with them personally. This isn't the place. We mods aren't ignoring you.

You've raised very obviously valid points.

[Guest El Payaso]

46 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

El Payaso, if you have an issue with someone, take it up with them personally. This isn't the place. We mods aren't ignoring you.

You've raised very obviously valid points.

I'm not blaming any of the mods for anything but for me it's quite clear that all of my threads are ignored by SI. I don't have any interest in going insulting people with private messages just wanted to make it clear why my threads are ignored by the SI team. But I won't mention it again as you are right: this is not the place. My apologies. 

[RBKalle]

6 ore fa, shadster ha scritto:

I'm very limited at tactic setup

 

The thing is you shouldn't be a Cleon or a Rashidi (ie. incredibly dedicated and competent people who have spent countless hours on honing their tactical skills) to pull off a basic "play through the middle" gameplay.

And anyway, the "it's your tactic" excuse doesn't work here because those are AI managers! So if most AI managers, even the best ones, can't seem to get the best out of their players and to replicate a PASSABLE (I say passable, not picture-perfect) version of their real-life counterparts, while mediocre wingers can become key players despite their limitations, it means there's something deeply wrong with how the ME handles tactics.

 

I can be the most useless FM player on this planet, BUT, if in FM Messi scores as much (as little...) as Ade Akinbiyi, while Joe Whatshisface can suddenly start to pull off Beckham-quality crosses despite being an all-aroudn mediocre player.
That, and/or FM-Guardiola can't seem to enjoy the same possession % and pass completion rate that the real Pep has. While relegation candidates still play unrealistically attractive attacking football, or can counter any side to death while worldclass strikers struggle to find space because there's not a thing such a "patient build-up"... It's either "shoot from 30 yards" or "cross as soon as there's a chance for that".

[Svenc]

1 hour ago, RBKalle said:

because there's not a thing such a "patient build-up"... It's either "shoot from 30 yards" or "cross as soon as there's a chance for that".

It's blanket statements like this that sees you getting "ignored" from my experience, btw.

 

To elaborate:  Build-up play has loads of stages for a start. Posting "This and that is nothing like football" under a few different guises is not going to lead anywhere, let alone be much of a base for debate. It's oft even distracting from issues, and killing debate before it can start. The aforementioned "no build up" statement for instance is vital to (arguably) remaining AI issues too -- the way they can or could line up until recent, they couldn't possibly have much of a patient build-up. On occasion, they couldn't even shift the ball out wide/r to release pressure as they have no players there, consequently are easily dispossessed and pegged back in their half again.

As much as some quality critique above "game sucks" should be welcomed, there is really not much in here that hasn't been raised in some form a dozen times as of yet, and it's mostly regulars here that know this perfectly well. Some of the mods have hinted at that there may be some bigger overhauls in the works (though they may take their time). The coders aren't chiming in much anymore either way, that ship has sailed long ago, and I would attribute it to some things on display here to an extent too. The main guys may know the code inside out anyway, including its limits, as it is of their doing. And may also sometimes view things differently. In parts as some of it is subjective; in parts because they may know their code's limitations; in parts as their research may run a little deeper than highlight reels. Sometimes we may need to accept that.

That's how I would view it from their end. And as a member of this comm,  likewise (no less as I would hope that they know their stuff, and have a long-term plan of their own). It's OT, but as has been brought up... I've nothing else to add as I don't see anything new here so far (and don't have time nor motivation to collect some myself), so carry on.

[RBKalle]

35 minuti fa, Svenc ha scritto:

It's blanket statements like this that sees you getting "ignored" from my experience, btw.

Well, I don't have nor the time nor the desire to watch 1000 matches to give a proper breakdown of every situation, but is it so outlandish to say those tendencies are common enough to be a problem?

 

Besides, I've never said I was "ignored", simply because I'm offering my very limited competence in terms of tactical development, but based on years of non-obsessive observation of said things as a dedicated, but CASUAL, player.
So, if some issues are glaring to me, who don't spend hours watching every pre-season friendly to fine-tune everything, I wonder how bigger and worse they can look to someone (like El Payaso) who is actually paying a lot of attention to details.

And again, look at those assists and chances... That's AI at work, not us trying to "play the ME" or anything.

[shadster]

3 hours ago, RBKalle said:

 

The thing is you shouldn't be a Cleon or a Rashidi (ie. incredibly dedicated and competent people who have spent countless hours on honing their tactical skills) to pull off a basic "play through the middle" gameplay.

And anyway, the "it's your tactic" excuse doesn't work here because those are AI managers! So if most AI managers, even the best ones, can't seem to get the best out of their players and to replicate a PASSABLE (I say passable, not picture-perfect) version of their real-life counterparts, while mediocre wingers can become key players despite their limitations, it means there's something deeply wrong with how the ME handles tactics.

 

I can be the most useless FM player on this planet, BUT, if in FM Messi scores as much (as little...) as Ade Akinbiyi, while Joe Whatshisface can suddenly start to pull off Beckham-quality crosses despite being an all-aroudn mediocre player.
That, and/or FM-Guardiola can't seem to enjoy the same possession % and pass completion rate that the real Pep has. While relegation candidates still play unrealistically attractive attacking football, or can counter any side to death while worldclass strikers struggle to find space because there's not a thing such a "patient build-up"... It's either "shoot from 30 yards" or "cross as soon as there's a chance for that".

Problem for me is, and I talked about it on another thread, I started, as always, a save with Benfica. As I wanted to play with a player at AM, to explore good players and prospects Benfica has on that position, I played a 4231 formation. My vision was to have to IF that would play inside, opening space for wing backs to help on attack, as I had one excellent player to do that, Grimaldo. Played for months, and never was able to do that. But the results were good, so was not a major problem. I started recently a save with Man United, and to try someting different, tried a 433 formation. I almost never use that one, as I like to play with attacking wingers. But my 433 formation, with 3 strikers started to play right away like I wanted my 4231 formation to play.

So, I don't know for sure if it is intirely my fault, as I aknowledge my limitations and perhaps my lack of patience to learn the game as I should. But the ME surely has those trends and limitations you talk, and has a lot of room to improve, as well the ability to implement a more personal style of game. For me it would be the major step that's missing, the ability to built up a tactic and a style of play, setting up attack and defence on separate screens and then transitions, etc... easier to speak than do and implement it, I know.