ULTIMATE LEGENDS & STARS 1880 - 2018

[Fenech]

12 hours ago, Weezer said:

Looks amazing. Will increase the difficulty from hard mode to 'are you ****ing kidding me' mode.

I have sent you the link. Enjoy!

[izagooner]

 

Vitor Silva is English mate

 

Edited August 23, 2018 by izagooner
mistake

[Fenech]

2 hours ago, izagooner said:

 

Vitor Silva is English mate

 

Well spotted mate, I have changed this now, I have also move kaiserslautern into a higher division... let me know if you require the updated one .. 

Edited August 23, 2018 by Fenech

[Weezer]

Have you added any new legends to the new db?

[izagooner]

1 hour ago, Fenech said:

Well spotted mate, I have changed this now, I have also move kaiserslautern into a higher division... let me know if you require the updated one .. 

no its okay I can change it myself. just thought id let you know 

[Fenech]

52 minutes ago, Weezer said:

Have you added any new legends to the new db?

yes a few new legends are there and ill be adding plenty more

[Weezer]

Just running a holiday game to make sure there are no glaring issues before committing to a proper save (no offence, I've had issues with super leagues in the past!) and a couple of things of noticed so far in the first couple of months.

The rogue CSKA Sofia I mentioned before is still there, they signed Kepa for £16 million but you can't click on the club's name. Though Kepa is still there and you can view his profile. The other CSKA Sofia is still functioning as normal.

Also, there is very large gaps between league games. For example there is a 25 day gap between the 2nd Super League game of the season to the 3rd. And although the is a Champions League group game sandwiched between those 2 matches there is still a significant 3 week gap with no competitive football. It seems to level out to a game a week as the season goes on but there are some odd gaps between games and then several games within a short space of time. Though tbf this is most likely an issue with the game's scheduling rather than anything you've done.

[Fenech]

4 hours ago, Weezer said:

Just running a holiday game to make sure there are no glaring issues before committing to a proper save (no offence, I've had issues with super leagues in the past!) and a couple of things of noticed so far in the first couple of months.

The rogue CSKA Sofia I mentioned before is still there, they signed Kepa for £16 million but you can't click on the club's name. Though Kepa is still there and you can view his profile. The other CSKA Sofia is still functioning as normal.

Also, there is very large gaps between league games. For example there is a 25 day gap between the 2nd Super League game of the season to the 3rd. And although the is a Champions League group game sandwiched between those 2 matches there is still a significant 3 week gap with no competitive football. It seems to level out to a game a week as the season goes on but there are some odd gaps between games and then several games within a short space of time. Though tbf this is most likely an issue with the game's scheduling rather than anything you've done.

That is probably because there are more teams in all the other divisions so the scheduling probably makes the other divisions play more games early on , i did notice that myself, the season for all divisions start and end on the same date, so the reason the super league is slow to start, is to allow the other teams to catch up with games. I could fix this but putting an extra 4 teams in the super league.

As for the rogue sofia, they have been deleted, so it must be hard coded that they remain and this is because SI changed the name and left the old club in the database as extinct instead of removing them.

I know this because when i search for the club, they are no longer there, but if I go to any player and put him at a club, they come up as an option and shows the unique id is 344.... so i go club and search for unique id 344 and it isnt there. so i have deleted it but it is still there as a club players can join, which is strange as the club is deleted. so if they are being rogue, its just something we will have to put up with. 

Edited August 23, 2018 by Fenech

[Weezer]

Okay. Maybe I’ll try starting the top league a week or two after the lower leagues (like the Football and Premier League) to see if the fixture list balances out?

I've also started shuffling a few teams around. I’m guessing you just sorted teams by reputation? This obviously means that a few teams with legends are not involved in the super league structure at the expense of teams with no legends and therefore weaker squads (but obviously higher club rep). A lot of the Hungarian teams were missing out for crappy Chinese and 2nd division French clubs for example. Also, for example again, clubs like Radnicki and RW Essen have a bunch of legends which gives them a much stronger squad than a lot of lower league teams but they’re still stuck in their now defunct domestic leagues.

 I holidayed a season with your original db and everything went well though so hopefully a few tweaks will not cause any issues.

[Fenech]

1 hour ago, Weezer said:

Okay. Maybe I’ll try starting the top league a week or two after the lower leagues (like the Football and Premier League) to see if the fixture list balances out?

I've also started shuffling a few teams around. I’m guessing you just sorted teams by reputation? This obviously means that a few teams with legends are not involved in the super league structure at the expense of teams with no legends and therefore weaker squads (but obviously higher club rep). A lot of the Hungarian teams were missing out for crappy Chinese and 2nd division French clubs for example. Also, for example again, clubs like Radnicki and RW Essen have a bunch of legends which gives them a much stronger squad than a lot of lower league teams but they’re still stuck in their now defunct domestic leagues.

 I holidayed a season with your original db and everything went well though so hopefully a few tweaks will not cause any issues.

I am going to add 4 more teams to the super league and i am adding a super cup 

This should balance out the fixture problem. If you tell me which teams should be added in and taken out, I am happy to adjust that too. and then send you the update

Edited August 24, 2018 by Fenech

[Jorgen]

For an even distribution of the clubs, I would suggest using a combination of  the president day coëfficients/reputation AND what they did in football history, with a maximum of 3 or 4 clubs from one nation in the initial season, for the highest 2 or even 3 levels, to avoid only English, Italian and Spanish teams in the upper regions of the pyramid.

Real Madrid is easy. The most succesfull team present day, but also won the league and Champions League multiple times in the past.
Manchester City is another case. Very high rep present day, but not so much in the past. They should not be in the highest league of your structure I guess.
Ajax is the other way around. Having a very high rep based on their history, but not so much succesful the last years (with only 1 continental final), however based on their history, I would say they deserve a spot in the highest league.

For every 24 teams, I selected 15 European; 5 North+South American and 4 teams from OFC / CAF / AFC.

 

 

Edit:

1. Feyenoord and PSV are most probably far better than Auckland City; as are Man City, PSG and Benfica, but as Auckland City won the OFC a lot of times, they deserve a place in the top level as best/most succesful Oceanian team ever.
2. I choose Benfica, City and PSG in D2 over some more succesful clubs in D3, because they are just far bigger teams right now or have been in football history than some other teams that I therefor moved to D3 and D4.
3. Although some teams numbered 16 through 24 are not as good as teams 1 through 15, I feel the distrubion over the continents and (inter)continental club competitions is pretty even right now.

Edited August 24, 2018 by Jorgen

[Weezer]

First thing I did was take City out of the top league  

[Weezer]

7 hours ago, Fenech said:

I am going to add 4 more teams to the super league and i am adding a super cup 

This should balance out the fixture problem. If you tell me which teams should be added in and taken out, I am happy to adjust that too. and then send you the update

So far I've added MTK, Honved and Vasas from the Hungarian league. Also added Dynamo Moscow, Auxerre (because Cantona!), RW Essen, Vejle, River Plate(Uruguay), Dinamo Tblisi, First Vienna, Dukla Prague and Radnicki Nis so far. All these teams have a handful of legends making them much stronger than a lot of the teams towards the bottom of your pyramid. Been slowly going through the leagues to see if any other legend filled clubs lower down the pyramid deserve to be swapped with lesser squads in higher divisions.

Can't remember specifically the teams I replaced so far but most were European 2nd tier sides that had no legends (Paris FC for example) or Chinese and Japanese sides.

Not a fan of @Jorgen's plan of placing teams in the top divisions based on their relative continental success. I mean sure it's inclusive and all that but teams like Auckland and Pohang would get murdered by the other legend filled teams in the division and would drop like a stone through the divisions.

[Jorgen]

@Weezer I didn't say it was perfect   i'll try to refine it a bit, 'cause you're probably right, that it would be crazy hard for them to survive.  

Where would you put the best Oceanian side ever?
 

 

[Weezer]

11 minutes ago, Jorgen said:

@WeezerWhere would you put the best Oceanian side ever?
 

 

Well, when it comes to a db of legends like this I'd put them below nearly every single European and South American team  

Because of the nature of the db the Asian, African, North American and Oceanic teams just can't compete at the higher levels, or even the mid-levels. On the original db it would be hard, when they're competing with 1000s of legends it's nigh on impossible.

[Weezer]

Found a few players wrongly given English nationality whilst exploring the db:

Luis Eyzaguirre
Ernst Kuzorra
Coen Moulijn
Aldo Olivieri
Gaizka Mendieta
Rogelio Dominguez
 

[Jorgen]

I understand that. It would be nice  though, if teams like Al-Ahly, Zamalek, NY Cosmos and Auckland City wouldn't only be at the "obscure levels" of this pyramid.

I'll think of another way of distributing the clubs  What about this:

(Blue = Europe; Green = Americas; Red = Africa, Asia & Oceania)

Edited August 25, 2018 by Jorgen

[Fenech]

9 hours ago, Weezer said:

Found a few players wrongly given English nationality whilst exploring the db:

Luis Eyzaguirre
Ernst Kuzorra
Coen Moulijn
Aldo Olivieri
Gaizka Mendieta
Rogelio Dominguez
 

Well spotted! I have done a thorough check and there were a few who changed nationality when i did the update for the super league, this was automatic, i have no located those who were not born in england and never played for england, but with an english nationality, including those above, there were not very many, but if you find any more, no need to update as i have already change them. As before if you want the updated version, let me know. 

Edited August 25, 2018 by Fenech

[Fenech]

15 hours ago, Weezer said:

So far I've added MTK, Honved and Vasas from the Hungarian league. Also added Dynamo Moscow, Auxerre (because Cantona!), RW Essen, Vejle, River Plate(Uruguay), Dinamo Tblisi, First Vienna, Dukla Prague and Radnicki Nis so far. All these teams have a handful of legends making them much stronger than a lot of the teams towards the bottom of your pyramid. Been slowly going through the leagues to see if any other legend filled clubs lower down the pyramid deserve to be swapped with lesser squads in higher divisions.

Can't remember specifically the teams I replaced so far but most were European 2nd tier sides that had no legends (Paris FC for example) or Chinese and Japanese sides.

Not a fan of @Jorgen's plan of placing teams in the top divisions based on their relative continental success. I mean sure it's inclusive and all that but teams like Auckland and Pohang would get murdered by the other legend filled teams in the division and would drop like a stone through the divisions.

All those clubs have now been added on.

I have taken out clubs with no legends mainly from asian countries . Not Chinese because they have shedloads of money which will be good for the economy of the league.

However i found plenty of Japan clubs with no players!

I have corrected all the nationalities.

Any club with 3 or more legends is now in the super league.

The other legends will be distributed to other clubs they played for who are in the league, in the case they never played another club, they will be moved to the club geographically closest to the club they played for or to the place of their birth who are in the super league.

The result is all legends and stars will be in the super league. I will also take the Medias advice on which teams should be in which divisions as the bookies are normally quite clever and adjust their thinking on a daily basis, e.g. odds on promotions or relegation changes in the game every time a club buys or sells a new player, so i trust their judgement in this regard and this will ensure that teams are in the correct divisions starting off.

On top of this, I have added 4 teams to the Super League and also added a Super Cup between the winners of FIFA FA Cup and FIFA World Champions League - if one team wins both, then the Winners of the Super League will play instead.

Once I have completed this, I will release the new update and anyone who was kind enough to make the donation to the charity, will be able to get this update for free.  Your support and help with this is greatly appreciated.

Edited August 25, 2018 by Fenech

[Weezer]

Gaetano Scirea, Miguel Bianqetti, Artur Correia, Vitor Silva, Andres Mazali, Erich Juskowiak, Bixente Lizarazu are also down as English.

Easily done as for some reason the editor automatically classifies any player you create as English.

[Fenech]

2 hours ago, Weezer said:

Gaetano Scirea, Miguel Bianqetti, Artur Correia, Vitor Silva, Andres Mazali, Erich Juskowiak, Bixente Lizarazu are also down as English.

Easily done as for some reason the editor automatically classifies any player you create as English.

I know, i have fixed them all now. they are not english in the original legends database. it just happened that some of them changed to english when i merged the super league with the legends database

Edited August 25, 2018 by Fenech

[Ernest166]

In my humble opinion, Juninho should definitely be part of Lyon squad. One of the best Lyon player's and one of the top free kick takers in history.

[Jorgen]

@Weezer I now looked at the national trophies + international trophies + all time rankings (Oosterpark, etc) and modern day reputations. What do you think of the leagues now?

@Fenech

I've looked at your division tables. It must be crazy hard to play in those leagues and certainly a lot of fun.  

If I may:

My suggestion for the D1 would be:

1. Real Madrid
2. Barcelona
3. Juventus
4. AC Milan
5. Inter Milan
6. Manchester United
7. Liverpool
8. Chelsea
9. Bayern
10. Dortmund
11. Marseille
12. Ajax
13. Feyenoord
14. PSV
15. Celtic
16. Benfica
17. Porto
18. Anderlecht
19. Steaua
20. Dinamo Kiev
21. Boca Juniors
22. Independiente
23. River Plate
24. Sao Paulo

My suggestion for the D2 would be:

1. Atletico Madrid
2. Sevilla
3. Napoli
4. Arsenal
5. Manchester City
6. Schalke 04
7. PSG
8. Rangers
9. Sporting Lissabon
10. Club Brugge
11. Red Star
12. Galatasaray
13. Zenit
14. Rapid Wien
15. Ferencvaros
16. Sparta Praag
17. Olympiakos Piraeus
18. Spartak Moscow
19. Roma
20. HSV
21. Club America
22. Penarol
23. Nacional (Uruguay)
24. Santos

Did you create legends and star players for AFC / CAF / OFC / MLS teams?
It would be nice to see powerhouses from other continents have a try to win the leagues too. Al-Ahly, TP Mazembe, Zamalek, ES Sahel, Raja, Al-Hilal, Pohang, Guangzhou, Espérance, NY Cosmos, LA Galaxy, etcetera. 

 

Hope this helps. Keep up the good work!  
 

Did I understand correctly that you are make two databases? One with only the legendary players and one that is a combination of the players + de superleague?
Why not keeping them seperated? Did it gave you too many players that were not in the superleague?

Edited August 26, 2018 by Jorgen

[Weezer]

12 hours ago, Jorgen said:

My suggestion for the D1 would be:

1. Real Madrid
2. Barcelona
3. Juventus
4. AC Milan
5. Inter Milan
6. Manchester United
7. Liverpool
8. Chelsea
9. Bayern
10. Dortmund
11. Marseille
12. Ajax
13. Feyenoord
14. PSV
15. Celtic
16. Benfica
17. Porto
18. Anderlecht
19. Steaua
20. Dinamo Kiev
21. Boca Juniors
22. Independiente
23. River Plate
24. Sao Paulo

My suggestion for the D2 would be:

1. Atletico Madrid
2. Sevilla
3. Napoli
4. Arsenal
5. Manchester City
6. Schalke 04
7. PSG
8. Rangers
9. Sporting Lissabon
10. Club Brugge
11. Red Star
12. Galatasaray
13. Zenit
14. Rapid Wien
15. Ferencvaros
16. Sparta Praag
17. Olympiakos Piraeus
18. Spartak Moscow
19. Roma
20. HSV
21. Club America
22. Penarol
23. Nacional (Uruguay)
24. Santos

That certainly looks better than the previous suggestion at first glance.

Though personally I would remove Chelsea from the top league as they don't have the history of some of the teams below them and individually their legends aren't as strong as other squads. Maybe replace them with Santos (Pele), Napoli (Maradona) or Arsenal? I would also have Austria Vienna somewhere in the top 2 divisions. Also I know there is an abundance of English teams in the top league of Fenech's original file but most of them deserve to be there. I think it would be harsh for teams like Sunderland and Preston maybe to not be in Div 2. Most of this is subjective though.

[Jorgen]

Yes, it is very subjective.

In my humble opinion:

1. Chelsea: I thought of placing Chelsea in D2 and Arsenal in D1, as Arsenal has won more prizes in total, but Chelsea is more succesful in recent years and is one of very few teams that have won all 3 major UEFA tournaments.
2. Napoli: Maradona en Pele are obviously some of the greatest players that ever played, but Napoli isn't really that succesful. They are in D2 purely because of them being a big club nowadays (like City, Atletico, PSG and Roma) but not because of there trophies. Actually, apart from Juve, AC Milan and Inter, all major Italian clubs lack a big trophy cabinet. Though it would be a shame not seeing Maradona in D1 or D2, Napoli actually fits better lower instead of higher, if you ask me.
3. Santos: Santos did win an awful lot and could certainly be in D1, that is true. But, Boca, River and Independiente all won a lot more (both continental and national). The only non-European team I could swap them with is Sao Paulo, but they also are more succesful. Having more teams from the Americas in the D1 could be an option ofcourse, but that would mean a swap with Anderlecht, Marseille, Steaua, or Dinamo Kiev in my opinion. In which case, Marseille did win a UCL, but won far less domestic leagues.
4. Austria Wien: Both Austrian clubs have a lot of trophies, but no major European titles, other than Mitropa. Austria Wien won more major tournaments (league, cup, supercup and Mitropa) but Rapid won the most league titles. If I put Austria Wien in D2, for me it would mean Roma loses its place and relegate to D3 and that probably does fit Roma better.
5. Sunderland and Preston: Why should they be so high in the pyramid? Preston has only 2 Premier League titles and Sunderland has 6. That is far less than any of the other teams. It makes no sense to put them in D5 or higher, I guess.

Edited August 26, 2018 by Jorgen

[Weezer]

I was going more on the strength of their squads in this db rather than the club's trophy cabinets tbf though. 

Austria Vienna are 30/1 in game to win the top division whereas Roma are only 40/1 to win the 2nd tier. That would suggest to me that Austria Vienna have a stronger squad.

Independiente might have a more impressive continental trophy cabinet but in their current division (8th tier I think) they're 40/1 to win the title whereas Hungarian club Ferencvaros, in the same division, who have no major European trophies are as short as 5/2. They are far stronger.

Teams packed with legends like Celtic and Red Star Belgrade are 1000/1 to win the top division, which means a squad like Independiente's that has, what, 4 legends maybe, in this db would probably be 2000/1 and get destroyed.

Sunderland have a very strong squad in this db, whether you agree with that status or not they often finish top 4 in the Prem in my tests.

Appreciate what you're going for though, I just think to do it your way you would have to add 100s more legends to the teams on the periphery of the top tier for them to stand a chance. Which is a gigantic task not just in time spent editing but actually finding the information too.

[Weezer]

Spent the weekend making a few tweaks and editing an all-time legends squad, can't wait to get started.

Just a couple of things that could be universal changes rather than just ones of my own preference @Fenech:

1. I deleted all the old past winners from the divisions that had histories (the top 5 iirc) so they are treated as brand new competitions. Annoyed me that it showed Chelsea as current holders for example  

2. Change the sub rules to 3 from 12 rather than 3 from 7, this means more legends in the match day squad. Better options for the user and possibly less chance of legends kicking off at not even making the bench week in week out.

I've made a lot of changes to the league structure in terms of club's places in the pyramid and although I've probably missed a lot and there's weaker teams higher than they should be it's been a lot of hours (serious respect to all your work!) and frankly I just want to get on and play the thing now  

[Weezer]

Btw @Jorgen hope that didn't come off as too argumentary or dismissive, was just meant to be positive discussion  

[Jorgen]

18 minutes ago, Weezer said:

I was going more on the strength of their squads in this db rather than the club's trophy cabinets tbf though. 

Austria Vienna are 30/1 in game to win the top division whereas Roma are only 40/1 to win the 2nd tier. That would suggest to me that Austria Vienna have a stronger squad.

Independiente might have a more impressive continental trophy cabinet but in their current division (8th tier I think) they're 40/1 to win the title whereas Hungarian club Ferencvaros, in the same division, who have no major European trophies are as short as 5/2. They are far stronger.

Teams packed with legends like Celtic and Red Star Belgrade are 1000/1 to win the top division, which means a squad like Independiente's that has, what, 4 legends maybe, in this db would probably be 2000/1 and get destroyed.

Appreciate what you're going for though, I just think to do it your way you would have to add 100s more legends to the teams on the periphery of the top tier for them to stand a chance. Which is a gigantic task not just in time spent editing but actually finding the information too.

It is a very hard task to make everything exactly right. @Fenech has done an excellent job so far, that's for sure. And yes, it would be very hard to find the right balance between modern day real life reputation, historical reputation, trophies won, fan base, rich bank accounts and legends strength.

I do not have Fenech's db at my disposal, so I cannot check where all the talents are. I do think that if you make a superleague, perhaps you should not only look to the squadstrength right now, but also to the things I mentioned above. And if a powerhouse like Independiente has about 4 legends, should they not have got a few more?  Here is a very nice blogpost about Independiente: https://soccerfootballwhatever.blogspot.com/2017/01/ca-independiente.html

Edited August 26, 2018 by Jorgen

[Jorgen]

1 minute ago, Weezer said:

Btw @Jorgen hope that didn't come off as too argumentary or dismissive, was just meant to be positive discussion  

No it wasn't. But thanks for saying this!

[Weezer]

1 minute ago, Jorgen said:

It is a very hard task to make everything exactly right. @Fenech has done an excellent job so far, that's for sure. And yes, it would be very hard to find the right balance between modern day real life reputation, historical reputation, trophies won, fan base, rich bank accounts and legends strength.

Yeah, in an ideal world you would make the legends' ability relative to the club's historical reputation. So Independiente would have a full squad of legends that would have a higher average CA than say for example, West Brom's squad of legends to establish them as a stronger club in the game. Unfortunately this would be a Herculean task first trying to sort the list of 100s of clubs in this pyramid into some sort of subjective order, and then editing the players in such a way that the more successful legends are significantly better than the lesser legends.

For example, just off the top of my head, Fabio Grosso the Italian journeyman left back has been given an astronomical CA of 193, whereas fellow legendary Italian defenders Cannavaro and Franco Baresi only have 187. Now that's what Fenech has decided and fair enough, this is his baby, but to go with your idea you would have to edit the abilities in the db to make clear that Baresi and Cannavaro are significantly better than Fabio Grosso. And you would then have to do it for the 1000s of legends in the db.

I can only imagine how much work Fenech has put into this db already, this would add months and months of solid work to that.

[Jorgen]

I get what you mean, but that is really not necessary and not what we are looking for to achieve. You'll end up with a database that gets messed up, because players will be measured by club reputation, instead of player performance. If Fenech has done it the way, I think he did, already some (probably a lot of) players of Real Madrid are better than some of West Brom, but still West Brom can have a few players that never played for a world class team, but are amongst the best in the legendary database. That is how it is in real life too. 

All players must be rated at how good they were in their time, compared to the rest of the players in that period and/or in football history. So Pele can be the best player in the world before everyone else, and still play for a team that is not the best in the world ofcourse. Look at Maradona. Compared to Pele at Santos and Cruijff at Ajax, Maradona won next to nothing club wise. Still he is considered to be a great player, no matter what club you put him at. Modern day football stars Antoine Griezman and Eden Hazard have not been at the elite teams like Real and Bayern, but are still considered elite players. Their attributes should reflect that and not be weakened because Chelsea is no Real Madrid and Atletico is no Bayern. Cristiano Ronaldo is arguably the best player in the world but his CA should not be decreased, because Juventus did not won a European Cup recently. Do you understand what I mean?

So my idea is find the right balance (which can be quite hard) between modern day real life reputation/performance and historical reputation/performance to fill the leagues. If a team that makes it to the superleague has not enough stars and legendary players, than fill the missing gaps, so that all powerhouses can be in it and reflect their strength in history. Derby, Sunderland, Preston or Sheffield Wednesday could have 25 legends, where Independiente has 4 right now. That still does not make those four a better club than Independiente.  

I am no native speaker, so if this reads like mumble jumble, I'll try to clarify it  

 

I did hundreds of suggestions for the Dutch leagues and other missing legends, and am happy to help again if I can.

Edited August 26, 2018 by Jorgen

[Weezer]

6 minutes ago, Jorgen said:

I get what you mean, but that is really not necessary and not what we are looking for to achieve. You'll end up with a database that gets messed up, because players will be measured by club reputation, instead of player performance. If Fenech has done it the way, I think he did, already some (probably a lot of) players of Real Madrid are better than some of West Brom, but still West Brom can have a few players that never played for a world class team, but are amongst the best in the legendary database. That is how it is in real life too. 

 All players must be rated at how good they were in their time, compared to the rest of the players in that period and/or in football history. So Pele can be the best player in the world before everyone else, and still play for a team that is not the best in the world ofcourse. Look at Maradona. Compared to Pele at Santos and Cruijff at Ajax, Maradona won next to nothing club wise. Still he is considered to be a great player, no matter what club you put him at. Modern day football stars Antoine Griezman and Eden Hazard have not been at the elite teams like Real and Bayern, but are still considered elite players. Their attributes should reflect that and not be weakened because Chelsea is no Real Madrid and Atletico is no Bayern. Cristiano Ronaldo is arguably the best player in the world but his CA should not be decreased, because Juventus did not won a European Cup recently. Do you understand what I mean?

So my idea is find the right balance (which can be quite hard) between modern day real life reputation/performance and historical reputation/performance to fill the leagues. If a team that makes it to the superleague has not enough stars and legendary players, than fill the missing gaps, so that all powerhouses can be in it and reflect their strength in history. Derby, Sunderland, Preston or Sheffield Wednesday could have 25 legends, where Independiente has 4 right now. That still does not make those four a better club than Independiente.  

I am no native speaker, so if this reads like mumble jumble, I'll try to clarify it  

Well, my point was that it has resulted in some players being stronger than they probably should be, eg Grosso being better than Baresi.

I think you've misunderstood me slightly. I wasn't suggesting that if you played for a smaller club you should automatically be rated worse than a lesser player that played at a bigger club. It needs to be done on a legend by legend basis, and this will result on average with the result you desire, the stronger historical teams will be the stronger squads because they've naturally had a higher number of top players play for them. But coming up with that kind of formula for rating players and then implementing it would be an epic task.

[Jorgen]

Aha, yes than we are on the same page  

Still think Independiente belongs in the D1 with River and Boca   
Perhaps I should get this db too, to see it for myself. Now I have to guess which teams are fully packed, and which only have a few legends.

Is there a way of seeing in game who is a star, and who is just part of the normal SI-database?
I.e. legends having a (*) between their name. (which would kill scouting by the way, when I think of it)

Edited August 26, 2018 by Jorgen

[Weezer]

4 minutes ago, Jorgen said:

Aha, yes than we are on the same page  

Still think Independiente belongs in the D1 with River and Boca   
Perhaps I should get this db too, to see it for myself. Now I have to guess which teams are fully packed, and which only have a few legends.

 Is there a way of seeing in game who is a star, and who is just part of the normal SI-database?
I.e. legends having a (*) between their name.

Not without checking their profile but if you do that it's pretty obvious who the legends are. They're all elite players so they will have very strong stats and if you install the facepack their pics will be a dead giveaway (unless you want to do a fair bit of modifying you will have to remove the faces from every non-legend.)

It's worth it though, it's a very unique take on the FM experience. @Fenech's done a great job.

[Fenech]

1 hour ago, Weezer said:

Yeah, in an ideal world you would make the legends' ability relative to the club's historical reputation. So Independiente would have a full squad of legends that would have a higher average CA than say for example, West Brom's squad of legends to establish them as a stronger club in the game. Unfortunately this would be a Herculean task first trying to sort the list of 100s of clubs in this pyramid into some sort of subjective order, and then editing the players in such a way that the more successful legends are significantly better than the lesser legends.

For example, just off the top of my head, Fabio Grosso the Italian journeyman left back has been given an astronomical CA of 193, whereas fellow legendary Italian defenders Cannavaro and Franco Baresi only have 187. Now that's what Fenech has decided and fair enough, this is his baby, but to go with your idea you would have to edit the abilities in the db to make clear that Baresi and Cannavaro are significantly better than Fabio Grosso. And you would then have to do it for the 1000s of legends in the db.

I can only imagine how much work Fenech has put into this db already, this would add months and months of solid work to that.

Fabio Grosso is not a 193. it just appears that way. he is actually only 179... which is about right for him. maybe he could be 175/6 on reflection. The reason he has gone up to 193 is purely because of the amount of positions he plays. the game has decided that if a player can play multiple positions then it increases his ability. so he was made a 179 with only 2 positions, once the extra multiple positions he could play were added on, he went up to 193.... but his value very much reflects a player of 179 and his ability in the game, in terms of his stats is only 179 too...

I had to do this for all players who played multiple positions because you get players like di stefano and cruyff who would be high but the stats were poor, as pointed out earlier in this thread. So in this version the players were made with only 2 positions first to get their real ability and then the other positions they could play added afterward but the value remained real and the ability in game remains real as the stats in game are only of a player with 179 ability.

In reality the likes of baresi and cannavaro are much better in the game because they are really 187 e.g despite only playing one or two positions... hope this helps.

Therefore it will look alot like some players are massively overrated now, but in fact they are not at all.... just ask yourself can this player play multiple alot of positions and then you will the reason why they look higher in the editor.... the editor figure represents the ability plus the amount of positions they play - but in the game they will still only be players of the lesser ability without the positions. its just they are much more versatile and therefore the editor adds the value on but the ability to play on the pitch is exactly of a player with the lesser ability before the positions were added on... in grosso case a 179...

I would have to be mental to think grosso was a better player than cannavaro or baresi 

Edited August 26, 2018 by Fenech

[Weezer]

2 minutes ago, Fenech said:

Fabio Grosso is not a 193. it just appears that way. he is actually only 179... which is about right for him. maybe he could be 175/6 on reflection. The reason he has gone up to 193 is purely because of the amount of positions he plays. the game has decided that if a player can play multiple positions then it increases his ability. so he was made a 179 with only 2 positions, once the extra multiple positions he could play were added on, he went up to 193.... but his value very much reflects a player of 179 and his ability in the game, in terms of his stats is only 179 too...

I had to do this for all players who played multiple positions because you get players like di stefano and cruyff who would be high but the stats were poor, as pointed out earlier in this thread. So in this version the players were made with only 2 positions first to get their real ability and then the other positions they could play added afterward but the value remained real and the ability in game remains real as the stats in game are only of a player with 179 ability.

In reality the likes of baresi and cannavaro are much better in the game because they are really 187 e.g despite only playing one or two positions... hope this helps.

I'm didn't think the game works like this but I could be wrong. Pretty sure the game will consider Grosso as a 193 rated LB (his natural position).

Incidentally Cruyff is one of the few players you created that I edited myself, I didn't like the fact that the huge amount of positions he played diluted his stats too much. I took away all his defensive positions and made him purely an attacking midfielder meaning I could boost his attacking attributes to more realistic levels. I know you wanted to recreate his versatility but it would be absolute madness for anybody to use one of the greatest attacking players of all time as a central defender or full back so I felt they were wasted attribute points that could be used better elsewhere.

[Fenech]

A former attacking midfielder, Grosso was a physical, quick, and energetic player, who was sound both defensively and offensively, due to his work-rate, attacking prowess, and stamina. A versatile footballer, regarded as one of the top Italian full-backs of his generation, he was also adept with accurate crossing ability, which even allowed him to be deployed as a winger or as an attacking wing-back on either flank throughout his career, despite being naturally left-footed. Unusually for a defender, he was also a free kick, penalty and corner kick specialist, responsibilities usually held by a striker or midfielder

[Fenech]

3 minutes ago, Weezer said:

I'm didn't think the game works like this but I could be wrong. Pretty sure the game will consider Grosso as a 193 rated LB (his natural position).

Incidentally Cruyff is one of the few players you created that I edited myself, I didn't like the fact that the huge amount of positions he played diluted his stats too much. I took away all his defensive positions and made him purely an attacking midfielder meaning I could boost his attacking attributes to more realistic levels. I know you wanted to recreate his versatility but it would be absolute madness for anybody to use one of the greatest attacking players of all time as a central defender or full back so I felt they were wasted attribute points that could be used better elsewhere.

It does work like that because i checked it out and tested it. His stats remained exactly the same , of a player with 179 ability when i loaded the game. Exactly this was the conversation we had earlier in the thread. lol

I think you will agree now that cruyff and di stefano stats are now reflection of their true ability in this version because i stripped them down and got them to the ability i wanted with only 2 positions and only added the positions on afterwards. hence why they are both now 200 ability. they are not quite that but with the positions added on of course they are and again i loaded the game and seen that the game stats are exactly the stats i put in for them, so the game remains true to all the stats they were given... as you know that no stat is left to chance and every stat given is carefully thought out based on the research and each player is fully tested before release into the game. 

Edited August 26, 2018 by Fenech

[Weezer]

I finished my all-time legends team, added them all to Sheffield Wednesday and moved the club to the top division. It's more of a mix of my favourite legends than it is a definitive list of the best 23 players ever.

[Fenech]

Just now, Weezer said:

I finished my all-time legends team, added them all to Sheffield Wednesday and moved the club to the top division. It's more of a mix of my favourite legends than it is a definitive list of the best 23 players ever.

Awesome team

[Weezer]

5 minutes ago, Fenech said:

A former attacking midfielder, Grosso was a physical, quick, and energetic player, who was sound both defensively and offensively, due to his work-rate, attacking prowess, and stamina. A versatile footballer, regarded as one of the top Italian full-backs of his generation, he was also adept with accurate crossing ability, which even allowed him to be deployed as a winger or as an attacking wing-back on either flank throughout his career, despite being naturally left-footed. Unusually for a defender, he was also a free kick, penalty and corner kick specialist, responsibilities usually held by a striker or midfielder

I think that write up is fairly generous though tbf. He was a good player that was elevated to Italian icon pretty much on the basis of that World Cup goal. He wasn't even in the team when the tournament started. That's not to say he is less deserving of any other player of being in your db though.

This is a great write up on Grosso's career - https://thesefootballtimes.co/2018/06/13/how-fabio-grosso-became-an-unlikely-italian-icon/

[Fenech]

5 minutes ago, Weezer said:

I think that write up is fairly generous though tbf. He was a good player that was elevated to Italian icon pretty much on the basis of that World Cup goal. He wasn't even in the team when the tournament started. That's not to say he is less deserving of any other player of being in your db though.

This is a great write up on Grosso's career - https://thesefootballtimes.co/2018/06/13/how-fabio-grosso-became-an-unlikely-italian-icon/

but he did amass 48 caps as well. Which to me is a good international standard, he was a good international player at the very least and for a country like Italy as well who at that time were very very good. And remember I have re coded the whole stats, my stats ratings are completely different from fm's, so therefore they can't be compared to the fm ratings system, as i have my own ratings system which I prefer and that is why in this version the best modern players were brought into line with my ratings system... and for me about 175 is a good international player, maybe the world cup goal and the fact he nearly had 50 caps put him up slightly but i think he is at least 175/176 according to my ratings system.

Edited August 26, 2018 by Fenech

[Weezer]

11 minutes ago, Fenech said:

Awesome team

Can't wait to unleash it.

Although the likes of Chilavert, Hagi and Stoichkov might not neccassirly make everybody's all-time best squads the first World Cup I remember with any kind of significant clarity is USA 94 (I was 14, I remember Italia 90 too but not so specifically, and I have no recollection of watching 86 at all), so players like Stoichkov and Hagi became my all time favourites. And despite the presence of Pele and Maradona I personally consider Zico as the best, just.

I made a few minor changes to the players ages too to make them slightly more senior and experienced. I'm not bothered that this shortens their career really as I haven't had a save go more than 6 seasons for years!

[Fenech]

3 minutes ago, Weezer said:

Can't wait to unleash it.

Although the likes of Chilavert, Hagi and Stoichkov might not neccassirly make everybody's all-time best squads the first World Cup I remember with any kind of significant clarity is USA 94 (I was 14, I remember Italia 90 too but not so specifically, and I have no recollection of watching 86 at all), so players like Stoichkov and Hagi became my all time favourites. And despite the presence of Pele and Maradona I personally consider Zico as the best, just.

Yes I remember thinking Hagi was amazing. they are the all the players i remember too, i was only 10 in 1986 but of course all i remember is watching a little argentine show off. lol

[Fenech]

Also you have to take into account that Grosso won titles with 3 different clubs, three championships as well as the world cup.. 

[Weezer]

I've always preferred Maradona to Pele. I like a bit of character, Pele's too 'teacher's pet' for me. I like my greats to have a bit of edge to them. It's safe for FIFA to acknowledge Pele as the best player ever over Maradona. Can you imagine the disasters if that guy was an ambassador for FIFA?  

Although I was 6 and have vague memories of life at that time I'm sad I can't remember anything about that 86 tournament. I don't think I even watched it, I didn't really get into football properly until I was 9-10.

[Weezer]

2 minutes ago, Fenech said:

Also you have to take into account that Grosso won titles with 3 different clubs, three championships as well as the world cup.. 

Tbf one of those titles was for a dominant Lyon side and another was as back-up for Maxwell in the Inter side. And then in the final one he made just two appearances as Juventus won the title so I'm not sure you can even give him that one  

He also didn't even make the squad for the next World Cup after his winning exploits in '06.

But anyway, I don't hate him! He's just one of those good, solid players that was elevated to legendary status pretty much for one specific moment in his career.

[Fenech]

5 minutes ago, Weezer said:

Tbf one of those titles was for a dominant Lyon side and another was as back-up for Maxwell in the Inter side. And then in the final one he made just two appearances as Juventus won the title so I'm not sure you can even give him that one  

He also didn't even make the squad for the next World Cup after his winning exploits in '06.

But anyway, I don't hate him! He's just one of those good, solid players that was elevated to legendary status pretty much for one specific moment in his career.

yes good point, but 48 caps for italy would put him at a good international level for me anyway, so if anything he is a 175ish so 179 isn't far from the mark :P

[Jorgen]

@Fenech

Do you have a list of all teams that have full squads of legendary players and teams that have only some?