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On 29/03/2018 at 16:18, themadsheep2001 said:

So attached is the Team Setup:

GK: Sweeper Keeper (Defend): Distribute Quickly, Distribute to Full Backs

RB: Right Fullback (Support): N/A

CB: Centre Back (Defend): N/A

CB: Centre Back (Defend): N/A

LB: Left Wingback/Complete Wingback (Attack): N/A

DM: Defensive Midfielder (Support): Dribble Less (to bypass press can add more direct passes, or become a deep lying playmaker. This position changed frequently, depending on player)

RM: Right Winger (Attack): N/A

MCL: Roaming (or Advanced) Playmaker (Support): More Direct Passes. You could use the other support roles, as happened with different players used (Fletcher etc), but as with those, you lose the ability to spray passes across the pitch

AML: Inside Forward (Attack): N/A  Roaming, Mark Tighter, Stay Wider (this can change again, depending on whether you wanted him to spear through the middle or isolate the full back)

AMCR: Shadow Striker (Attack): Mark Tighter, Roaming.

CF: Complete Forward (Support): Mark Tighter, Roaming

 

With the roaming, you'll frequently find your all action trio interchanging positions

20180329153126_1.jpg

 

Early days, but this is how it stands. As with the real life emulation your left flank is ultra attacking, and can be prone to counters. Your left back is a key purchase, as with Evra he needs to be able to cover the entire flank, and have recovery ability.

20180329155903_1.jpg

Nice to see you finally posting bits about this, as we've had a lot of discussions on Twitter in the past 2-3 years about the Arsenal and Man Utd sides. It's evolved quite a lot over the years too :)

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3 hours ago, Cleon said:

Nice to see you finally posting bits about this, as we've had a lot of discussions on Twitter in the past 2-3 years about the Arsenal and Man Utd sides. It's evolved quite a lot over the years too :)

Yeah, figured i should get off my arse and do it.

I've actually got an Arsenal one going, but I don't think I'll get to it for a while in my season. Realistically it needs a flat 4-4-2, so I'll need to train up Martial and Lingard for that Freddie role. Also if i have to do a mirror version ill need to sign a much more aggressive right back.

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8 hours ago, themadsheep2001 said:

Yeah, figured i should get off my arse and do it.

I've actually got an Arsenal one going, but I don't think I'll get to it for a while in my season. Realistically it needs a flat 4-4-2, so I'll need to train up Martial and Lingard for that Freddie role. Also if i have to do a mirror version ill need to sign a much more aggressive right back.

And Arsenal one is more of a 4411 for me. Bergkamp was more of a Treq in the end of his career. The new IW role just fits Freddy to a tee, as well :D

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17 minutes ago, Jean0987654321 said:

And Arsenal one is more of a 4411 for me. Bergkamp was more of a Treq in the end of his career. The new IW role just fits Freddy to a tee, as well :D

See I'm think 4-4-1-1, but the strike duo offset. I'm not sure if Bergkamp was a treq or a shadow striker. He definitely modified his game. 

And definitely right about the IW, to go along with the wide playmaker for Pires 

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15 hours ago, themadsheep2001 said:

See I'm think 4-4-1-1, but the strike duo offset. I'm not sure if Bergkamp was a treq or a shadow striker. He definitely modified his game. 

And definitely right about the IW, to go along with the wide playmaker for Pires 

I tried out Bergkamp as a DLF (S). It worked well for me. At times he was a attacking mid and also a striker. He is a good example of a 9 and a half, like RVP at Man Utd.

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18 hours ago, goqs06 said:

I tried out Bergkamp as a DLF (S). It worked well for me. At times he was a attacking mid and also a striker. He is a good example of a 9 and a half, like RVP at Man Utd.

Not even in the slightest. When RVP came here, he was a classic 9. Bergkamp was easily a Treq during the Invicibles season. RVP succeeded him in that role for a bit at Arsenal until his injuries converted him into a true 9

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4 hours ago, Jean0987654321 said:

Not even in the slightest. When RVP came here, he was a classic 9. Bergkamp was easily a Treq during the Invicibles season. RVP succeeded him in that role for a bit at Arsenal until his injuries converted him into a true 9

Bergkamp was also capable of playing behind a lone striker, where he essentially functioned in the number 10 role as a playmaking attacking midfielder or deep-lying forward, due to his ball skills and creative ability, which enabled him to drop deep between the lines and link-up play. A quick, elegant, intelligent, and technically gifted player, his excellent first touch, quick feet, dribbling ability, and change of pace enabled him to beat defenders in one on one situations, while his attacking movement, physique, balance, and close control allowed him to hold up the ball and create space for teammates; his vision and passing range with both feet, despite being naturally right-footed, subsequently allowed him to provide assists for on-running strikers. Bergkamp often stated he preferred playing in this deeper role, as he derived more pleasure from assisting goals, rather than scoring them himself.

I think this kinda supports what you say about Bergkamp being a Treq. Inclined to agree with you now.

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On 29/03/2018 at 21:00, themadsheep2001 said:

Weigl DM

Saul playmaker 

Pogba AMC 

Herrera cover for Saul 

I'm tracking both of them long term. Fallen out a but with Herrera, would sell him for Saul if I get a decent offer 

Given this a go, with Saul as the RPM. Turns out a high creative freedom role, with ‘more dribbling’ as a hard-coded PI mixed with a player who has ‘runs with ball often’ as a PPM = lots of running with the ball into defenders rather than being an actual playmaker. 

Will give him a go with a different role that doesn’t have ‘more dribbling’, maybe AP or DLP support. May also try him wide as well, cutting in from the right onto his left foot.

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4 minutes ago, howard moon said:

Given this a go, with Saul as the RPM. Turns out a high creative freedom role, with ‘more dribbling’ as a hard-coded PI mixed with a player who has ‘runs with ball often’ as a PPM = lots of running with the ball into defenders rather than being an actual playmaker. 

Will give him a go with a different role that doesn’t have ‘more dribbling’, maybe AP or DLP support. May also try him wide as well, cutting in from the right onto his left foot.

Yeah PPMs will make a difference.

AP support is a good alternative

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1 minute ago, themadsheep2001 said:

Yeah PPMs will make a difference.

AP support is a good alternative

Have you tried Pogba in the RPM role yet? If not, what made you steer away from it? He certainly has the technical ability to do it...

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12 hours ago, howard moon said:

Have you tried Pogba in the RPM role yet? If not, what made you steer away from it? He certainly has the technical ability to do it...

I've played him there a couple of times, but not a consistent run. 

Basically, regardless of whether this emulation was successful or not, I had always planned to buy Savic, as he's a top quality mid of a kind I was missing (Saul or Koke other good targets). Pogba's ability to dribble, and fight through with his feet, make him and Sanchez great alternatives to Tevez, and Sanchez is easily my best right wing so Pogba plays that AMC role

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3 hours ago, themadsheep2001 said:

I've played him there a couple of times, but not a consistent run. 

Basically, regardless of whether this emulation was successful or not, I had always planned to buy Savic, as he's a top quality mid of a kind I was missing (Saul or Koke other good targets). Pogba's ability to dribble, and fight through with his feet, make him and Sanchez great alternatives to Tevez, and Sanchez is easily my best right wing so Pogba plays that AMC role

Have you signed anyone to replace Matic in the Carrick role? Trying to find someone to play DLP that brings some control to the game, looked at Kroos but struggle to justify the spend on wages.

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Think Kroos is more of a replacement for Scholes, Carrick was never the primary playmaker in this team. In my FM 2017 save I have Weigl and he’s good in that holding role. 

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58 minutes ago, simonbyrneno.4 said:

Have you signed anyone to replace Matic in the Carrick role? Trying to find someone to play DLP that brings some control to the game, looked at Kroos but struggle to justify the spend on wages.

I had a falling out with Herrera, so I've got Strootman in. 

Saul would be my next target 

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3 hours ago, themadsheep2001 said:

I had a falling out with Herrera, so I've got Strootman in. 

Saul would be my next target 

Mind if I suggest Diawara or Jorginho or even Lucas Torreira. Very cheap especially the latter

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3 hours ago, Jean0987654321 said:

Mind if I suggest Diawara or Jorginho or even Lucas Torreira. Very cheap especially the latter

Got 175m for next season so Sergi Roberto is definitely my next big target. Will be my starting RB but can play the midfield roles. 

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You could retrain Lindelof to be a midfielder if needed, has the attributes to be one of the best in the game, and if I recall rightly no ppms at the start of a save so mouldable for whatever role is needed. 

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On 4/7/2018 at 07:05, zlatanera said:

You could retrain Lindelof to be a midfielder if needed, has the attributes to be one of the best in the game, and if I recall rightly no ppms at the start of a save so mouldable for whatever role is needed. 

Ruben Neves too... or you could try moulding and developing Puigmal from the U18 team

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On 07/04/2018 at 07:05, zlatanera said:

You could retrain Lindelof to be a midfielder if needed, has the attributes to be one of the best in the game, and if I recall rightly no ppms at the start of a save so mouldable for whatever role is needed. 

He would work as a great dlp or anchorman

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On 27/03/2018 at 17:28, Ji-Sung Park said:

I do feel that @felley nailed it though. I was raised a Man Utd supporter and having read the books and watched countless of games, we have to say that Ferguson was not a very tactically oriented manager - with micromanagement on player movement etc. He let the players play freely and to their strengths = very few TI/PI settings. He would go crazy if players took too many long shots or missed obvious passing opportunities, but that doesn't always mean he worked the ball into the box for instance.

I agree. Contrary to current Man Utd gaffer Mourinho's heavy dictation and control of players with PIs, SAF took a more minimalistic approach.

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Quick scan through this thread and I can't see one post suggesting that Utd ever played on an Attacking team mentality. By this stage of his career Ferguson's team's had become more sophisticated especially in the Champions League, of course, and away against top four Prem League opponents.  But there was still a lot of games when they just said, right we're Man Utd and you're going to cop it.  The speed of their transition (to coin a trendy turn of phrase) was very quick with a young Rooney, Nani and Ronaldo.  I'd definitely say there was room for an Attacking version in their tactical arsenal.

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1 hour ago, Robson 07 said:

Quick scan through this thread and I can't see one post suggesting that Utd ever played on an Attacking team mentality. By this stage of his career Ferguson's team's had become more sophisticated especially in the Champions League, of course, and away against top four Prem League opponents.  But there was still a lot of games when they just said, right we're Man Utd and you're going to cop it.  The speed of their transition (to coin a trendy turn of phrase) was very quick with a young Rooney, Nani and Ronaldo.  I'd definitely say there was room for an Attacking version in their tactical arsenal.

I would agree. I think the issue might be that with 10 years remove from the last great United side (arguably dismantled too soon) its hard for people looking for recreations to find enough in-depth tactical analysis, particularly as from 2008 onwards Pep Guardiola was single-handedly funding about 1,000 armchair tactics maestros' writing careers with the brilliant football he was playing. The closest I've come in the tactics creator to something with those lightning transitions is an Attacking / Fluid tactic with "Pass Into Space" and "Play Out Of Defence" (and, incidentally, Ronaldo brought back). 

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Along those lines @zlatanera yep.  Maybe a debate on shape as that could leave them over exposed on that mentality but otherwise there was a lot of attacking intent, tempo, width etc.  I know its a bit of a Fergie soundbite also to say that he always sent his sides out to win a game - and I also realise playing on Attack is neither a win or goalscoring button in FM - but his sides did have that forward playing intent, and a lot of the time.  I just can't imagine one of his sides being told to play on "standard".  Of course that last sentence begins to blur FM, the computer game, with his personality in a way that doesn't fully make sense but hopefully you know what I mean.  :)

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On 19/06/2018 at 06:37, Robson 07 said:

I just can't imagine one of his sides being told to play on "standard".

My take on SAF's choice of mentality over the last few years:

2006-2009: Attacking / Counter

2009-2013: Control / Counter

 

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In the 2007-08 season I would say they attacked the majority of games at the structured end of shape.  The formation is always hard to pin down because the wide players were attacking perhaps making their position starting position seem higher than it was on a chalkboard.  Also when playing two strikers the 2nd striker invariably dropped on a support role.  A 442 or a 4411 could also look like a 4231.

This was the time when Ronaldo was becoming a powerhouse superstar that we see today.  Such was his direct style and the pace of the forwards that Utd could go from defence to attack faster than just about anyone.  There were a number of counterattacking goals scored but not necessarily as a result of Utd playing on what FM would deem as counter mentality.

When playing, lets call it their European game, I would say it most resembled FM's 4123DM formation.  This was United perhaps in Control mode and a different shape and style.  My recollection is that this is when Park and Fletcher would come in.  I always remember Park playing from the left actually because his game was so hard working that it allowed Evra to attack whilst Brown on the right did so a lot less as he was a converted centre half anyway.  Fletcher equally just did a lot of selfless running up and down the middle.

Sometimes Rooney, Ronaldo and Tevez switched positions.  Sometimes Nani would swap flanks.  I guess Carrick was the holder, always in position and breaking up play with interceptions.  And although Carrick had great passing range of his own he tended to keep his game simple and just gave the ball to Scholes when he was in the side.  By now Scholes was in his early 30's and arguably had peaked - I think Anderson had been signed as his long term heir - but he was still the real playmaker at Utd.

That's my 2p. :cool:

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The speed of he counter/ transition was probably best summed up by Ian Dowie: "They can hit you so fast on the break that every time WE got a corner I was s##ting myself!"

Different era I know but it was always one of Fergie's signature styles.

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В 06.01.2018 в 18:34, goqs06 сказал:

 

Sir Alex Ferguson 07/08 Tactics

1200px-Alex_Ferguson.jpg

"I've never played for a draw in my life." - Sir Alex Ferguson
 

10 years ago - the 2007–08 season was Manchester United's 16th season in the Premier League, and their 33rd consecutive season in the top division of English football. The season was regarded as a success; despite the team's slow start in the league, they won their 10th Premier League title (their 17th top division title overall, just one behind Liverpool's record of 18 but no premier league titles) and beat Chelsea on penalties in the 2008 UEFA Champions League Final to claim the European Double.

This thread examines how Sir Alex Ferguson set out his squad (tactics), and how key players, Cristiano Ronaldo, Wayne Rooney and Paul Scholes, helped the team achieve that feat.

Manchester United did not use a specific formation in their amazingly from 2006 - 2009.  Sir Alex Ferguson had used a variety of formations – 4-3-3, 4-4-2, 4-5-1, 4-2-3-1, 4-4-1-1 – and probably a few others.

 

missioncopym_817593d.thumb.jpg.32a0f5c200a51e802986461dfb5939fa.jpg

 

Analysis

During the 07/08 season, United always featured a back four with two deep midfielders, Carrick and Scholes. Ferguson generally used an additional midfield player, with a fluid front three of Cristiano Ronaldo, Wayne Rooney and Carlos Tevez.
 

They (were):

  • highly versatile
  • wonderful understanding in and around the penalty area
  • understood their defensive responsibilities.

Other key components included there being no real striker (4-6-0 formation) and consisted of hard-working defensive players like Park and Hargreaves.

Characteristics of the Team / Style / Play:

  • Pressing (a bit)
  • Slightly deep defensive line
  • Defending wide
  • Fast and direct
  • Playing out of defence 
  • full-backs (Brown and Evra) providing width
  • interchanging roles and squad rotation (Nani, Giggs and many others getting rotational game time)

 

man-utd-chelsea-tactics-champions-leaguefinal-2008.thumb.jpg.6c4ccfe228b28bac2f566d53efe0f25b.jpg

An example a hybrid 4-4-2 / 4-4-3 ish formation utilized in the Champions League.

(Note that Ronaldo played on the left in Europe, and the right in the league; additionally Scholes played higher up in the EPL)

 

Tactics

1.thumb.PNG.66ee6bd93bbb34903cf00f33f022206b.PNG

 Champions League   

 

2.thumb.PNG.9cb0b5fe42e22a7a08aee83f20295624.PNG'

Premier League        

   

3.thumb.PNG.39178329605920771772d32d97fddc49.PNG

  Other formation used                                                                                                                                                                 

 

  • More Direct Passing + Higher Tempo (fast and direct football)
  • Pass Into Space
  • Play out of Defence (starting play from the back)
  • Work Ball into Box (play patiently, put balls into the box)
  • Play fairly wider (stretching play & defending wide)
  • Drop slightly deeper

 

  • G: nil
  • FB (S): Hold Position, Fewer Risky Passes
  • CD (D): Mark Tighter
  • BPD (C): Mark Tighter, Pass it Shorter
  • IWB (A): nil (interchange iwb/wb on att duty, at times evra would either underlap and overlap ronaldo in certain games)
  • DLP (D) / A (D): Tackle Harder, Mark Tighter
  • CM (S) / DLP (S): More Direct Passes, More Risky Passes
  • WM (S): Roam from Position, Cross More Often
  • IF (S): Close Down More, Mark Tighter, Roam from Position, Get Further Forward
  • SS (A): Roam from Position
  • DLF (S): Shoot Less Often, Roam From Position, Move into Channels

Enable player swap with Tevez/Rooney roles

  • DW (S): Get Further Forward, Roam From Position, Sit Narrower (Park Ji Sung Role)

 

Conclusion

There is a perception amongst some journalists that Ferguson is not a great tactician, but the more time that passes, the less this seems true. Away in Europe over the past couple of years, United have been devastating, and the way United set out against Arsenal at the Emirates by beating them 8-2 in 2011 shows that Ferguson is able to adapt to changing times and adopt new tactical formulas for success. He has utilised formations like 4-4-2, 4-3-3, 4-2-3-1, 4-5-1, 4-1-2-1-2 and much more during his long tenure as United boss from 1986 to 2013. However, one principle idea has not changed in the evolution of his tactics - the thirst and desire for attacking and entertaining football.

I've decided to make this post a more short one compared to my previous works in order to make it simple and concise.

Thank you so much... please follow my account if you like more of this content!

why did you use the 3 formation?

 

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On 08/08/2018 at 10:02, Jean0987654321 said:

Thats not the 07/08 team tho. Thats the 12/13 team which is a different beast on it's own

Wouldn’t mine giving the 12/13 side a shot here though, @Jean0987654321

Edited by goqs06

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On 07/08/2018 at 12:31, kpsia518 said:

https://eplindex.com/29894/scouting-report-manchester-united-stats-depth-tactical-analysis.html

EPL INDEX > EPL INDEX FEATURED ARTICLE > SCOUTING REPORT: MANCHESTER UNITED | STATS & IN DEPTH TACTICAL ANALYSIS

 

On 08/08/2018 at 10:02, Jean0987654321 said:

Thats not the 07/08 team tho. Thats the 12/13 team which is a different beast on it's own

image.thumb.png.99ba236a3fed05a55a4eee10f64e9292.png

My take on the 12/13 side.

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On 29/03/2018 at 16:18, themadsheep2001 said:

So attached is the Team Setup:

GK: Sweeper Keeper (Defend): Distribute Quickly, Distribute to Full Backs

RB: Right Fullback (Support): N/A

CB: Centre Back (Defend): N/A

CB: Centre Back (Defend): N/A

LB: Left Wingback/Complete Wingback (Attack): N/A

DM: Defensive Midfielder (Support): Dribble Less (to bypass press can add more direct passes, or become a deep lying playmaker. This position changed frequently, depending on player)

RM: Right Winger (Attack): N/A

MCL: Roaming (or Advanced) Playmaker (Support): More Direct Passes. You could use the other support roles, as happened with different players used (Fletcher etc), but as with those, you lose the ability to spray passes across the pitch

AML: Inside Forward (Attack): N/A  Roaming, Mark Tighter, Stay Wider (this can change again, depending on whether you wanted him to spear through the middle or isolate the full back)

AMCR: Shadow Striker (Attack): Mark Tighter, Roaming.

CF: Complete Forward (Support): Mark Tighter, Roaming

 

With the roaming, you'll frequently find your all action trio interchanging positions

20180329153126_1.jpg

 

Early days, but this is how it stands. As with the real life emulation your left flank is ultra attacking, and can be prone to counters. Your left back is a key purchase, as with Evra he needs to be able to cover the entire flank, and have recovery ability.

20180329155903_1.jpg

This is great and I've been playing around with something very similar with my rbl side. I've struggled with replicating the away setup where he would sacrifice and striker for another midfielder, I've not been able to get the extra stability and counter attacking threat utd would pose (arsenal away springs to mind). How would adapt the tactics to achieve this?

Edited by mj_1985

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On ‎02‎/‎04‎/‎2018 at 07:06, Jean0987654321 said:

Bergkamp was easily a Treq during the Invicibles season.

No role can capture the brilliance of Bergkamp.

Trequarista "the third quarter" ... Bergkamp did float around outwide and on the edge of the box ... but he also came deep and got in the box etc.

I'd say he's an AMC with PPM 'comes deep to get the ball', 'plays killer balls', 'plays one twos', 'arrives late in the opponents area'

PI - roam from position, move into channels, more risky passes

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On 06/11/2018 at 15:04, blehq12 said:

@goqs06 could you do your tactics on FM 19 and see how it goes?

image.thumb.png.fe272ff226dd0589472b063de71e1b24.png

This is my initial take on it ...  will make improvements necessary soon! @felley and @sherifdinn_, do you think a simple 4-4-2 suits better with 2 banks of 4, rather than an asymmetrical setup?

Edited by goqs06

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I'd also be very interested in this given we've now returned to playing this style of football. 

 

Would be interested to see your take on Solskjaer's 4231 formation

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On 13/08/2019 at 14:26, Igahlo_sweep said:

Any FM19 update Roles, instructions and PPMs you could share?

I'm playing around with  themadsheep2001 's  great tactic. Pure joie de vivre.

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13 minutes ago, poma said:

What tactic? Can't find any...

You can find the tactic on page 3 in this thread. Cleon also quoted it on the first post on page 4.

CJDPiCE.png

Here is a screen of my usual lineup. In the first transfer window I brought in Depay and De Ligt and sell Darmian (Lyon) and Rojo (Watford).
Pogba scored already 21 goals, Rashford (injured cruciate ligament ruputre) scored 14 and Rom 9. Martial with 11 assists.

Edited by Bahamontes

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