The Current Match Engine Is Broken

[Lazaru5]

This is probably going to be a long post so I'll apologise now.

Why do I say the ME is broken? Because it is, that's why...

I'm no newbie to FM, I've played every iteration since it's inception up until FM11 when SI decided to force us to install Steam in order to play the game... I know (knew?) how to set up a tactic, how to manage squads, how to deal with training, how to get the best deals in contract and/or transfer negotiations (for the most part), how to take teams from the bottom rungs of the leagues to world domination, etc etc etc... Some of you may recall that with FM11 I only saved the game after every 15 matches (yes that is FIFTEEN), leaving the PC running for days on end and only saving it sooner if I had to reboot the PC, go away for a few days or if it was the end of the season so it's not as if I don't know how to play the game.

It has NEVER taken me THREE HOURS to play a single match on FM until last night! 3 hours! I kid you not. I find I now have to constantly micro-manage everything throughout the match, making umpteen number of minor tactical changes just to try and win a match. I did win the match, eventually, but only after making any number of minor tactical tweaks in order to try and stop my players doing stupid, nonsensical or completely illogical things - even though many of the changes didn't change anything.

In the past your assistant's feedback and the fix would be something like this:

misplacing too many short passes > pass it longer TI

misplacing too many long passes > pass it shorter TI

misplacing too many easy passes > lower tempo TI

our passes are not finding their targets whatever the distances > increase tempo TI

So last night in order to appease my assistant I ended up with maximum tempo and go route one but did that make any difference? Well, not really, certainly no positive difference. Even before changing anything my full-backs/centre-backs were hoofing the ball long even when there were apparently at least 3 good options for a simple pass. I was using a downloaded tactic that since I've downloaded it I've changed pretty much everything within except the roles (and even at least one of those I've changed) - the reason for using a downloaded tactic being the new TC is completely different to the sliders of old that I'm used to and I'm still learning it. Despite changing the TI's my full-backs were still hoofing it long despite there being a centre-back, centre-mid and a winger all within a fairly close proximity. I changed their passing lengths, still hoofed it unnecessarily. I changed their roles, still hoofed it unnecessarily. I changed their PI's, still hoofed it unnecessarily. And so on and so forth, it just made no sense whatsoever, no matter what I did the players did whatever they wanted. Before anybody asks, mentality/strategy was set to Standard so no obvious reason why they should be hoofing the ball.

But it didn't end there. Despite having corner takers assigned they were being taken by a player that had (in my eyes) completely unsuitable attributes for taking corners - one of which led to a conceded goal on the break as he tried to cross it to where HE was supposed to be... And talking of corners, oh my, where to begin...

First off let's go with defending corners. Because the training has also changed massively from the FM11 days I have my assistant set to manage training, do they not bother working on defending set-pieces unless told to do so? I'm guessing not which must be a real downer for new players to FM when they see their team totally ignore the instructions you set in the TC. Example: this is a corner we conceded from

 

the two players stood below the penalty spot are supposed to be 1. mark tall and 2. man mark and yet there are two players above the pen spot unmarked. The player to the left of the pen spot is set to mark tall and indeed he is my tallest player marking their tallest player BUT when the corner comes across, he follows the player until the other player told to mark tall "takes over" but as he is a good few inches shorter and (presumably) moving backwards and therefore unable to generate a jump the opposing player wins the header, nods it down to one of the unmarked players who belts it into the back of the net. Now yes my team haven't been told to focus on defending set-pieces prior to the match but the instructions are fairly simple, i.e. MARK SOMEONE! But obviously they don't...

Then as we approach the last ten minutes of the game winning 3-2 (only because of my afore-mentioned micro-managing of the match) I tell the team to take short corners, a routine for which I have already created and obviously loaded at the same time as changing the instruction to take them short. I'd also changed strategy/mentality to defensive and increased time-wasting to maximum. 

What happens? Well obviously we just keep firing the ball across the box, no short corner, no keeping the ball in the corner, just give the ball away to the opposition who have 7 players in the box to my 4... 

and this didn't just happen once, but at least twice more IIRC so it wasn't as if they needed to adjust to the new instructions, they just ignored them. I could go on about other issues re: corners, corner takers, corner routines, etc, but I think you get the point, corners are broken..

I've already mentioned in the Match Engine forum about low crossing seemingly not working since the hotfix and again, despite being told to use low crosses my players crossed one in ten low (if that many) all the rest were just bread and butter for the opposition defence and even those low crosses weren't towards any of my players

It's not like I can even tell my strikers where to aim their crosses anymore, it's an instruction that has been removed in the new TC, but as the low crosses that did come in were from my strikers you'd have thought they might try and find their strike partner, no? No.. obviously not, that would be too simple.

I haven't even touched on the defenders backing away from the ball instead of attacking it (something I thought had been fixed in the FM11.3 ME), the ball hitting players on the back when they should be facing it (I can't believe that this is STILL an issue), players passing it to the opposition when the simple pass is to a team mate (in fact, "simple passes" appear to be virtually impossible for my players to execute at all), players passing it out of play, players stopping the ball for the opposition player to collect even when it would be our ball if it went out of play, or the goalkeeper ignoring virtually all PI's and just hoofing the ball down the centre of the pitch.

It's more than just frustrating, it almost makes me want to cry, nothing seems to work like it used to or like you would expect it to and having to micro-manage each match for 3 hours at a time is not going to endear me to FM18 for very long.

I could go on and on and on about all the issues I faced in just this one match but as I hope my few examples demonstrates the title of this post is not hyperbole as some will try to say, the match engine truly is broken (as is the TC, training, and pretty much everything else to do with FM18).

It's not fun anymore, it's horrible, and when you have forked out over £165 in order to play the game it's downright disappointing.

 

N.B. £165 = £105+ for 2nd hand laptop cos Steam is not going anywhere near my main PC anytime before I die; £15+ for a new battery for the laptop and £45 for FM18 Limited Edition from GAME (£45!!!)

[sporadicsmiles]

Firstly, what on earth do you have against Steam? That seems like a pretty bizarre thing to be hung up on. It is not exactly some dodgy software that is going to infect your computer with nefarious software. You can even use it in offline mode if you do not want to have to worry about it tracking/monitoring you. But that is rather incidental.

I will not make any comments on the bugs (because I have honestly not played that much yet on FM18 so I cannot really comment on them). What I will say is that if you are coming from FM11 directly into FM18, do you not think that it is your own knowledge that is slightly outdated? In FM11 you could mess with sliders to find a way to exploit the match engine, in a way that is not really possible right now. Downloading a tactic is definitely not the best way to get used to how the tactical system works in FM18, because they often have massive numbers of instructions, and often use combinations of roles that are designed to exploit the ME in some way (not all). In any case, the best way to work out how to play is to build your own tactic from the ground up, that way you can learn what effect different instructions have in relative isolation.

I would also like to point out that it seems you are making changes blindly rather that with any sense of purpose or to combat anything specific. If your team is not doing well, and you are spending 3 hours to play a single match, how did you not spot what it is that is going wrong? There are so many reasons that are not the ME not working for your team playing poorly. Is the opposition side pressing you hard so passes are rushed and inaccurate (or pumped up the pitch in a panic). Are there no good passing options available? Are your players being man marked? Are you outnumbered? Are you playing in a one dimensional fashion? There is absolutely no point making a change to your tactic if you do not have a good reason to do so. I am in no way saying you do not understadn football, or cannot do things, but that you must learn how to translate what you see in the pitch into how you should change a tactic to nullify your opposition. That will take some time and some effort, since FM18 is basically brand new in this respect for you.I have played the game every year since FM08, and I have played enough to understand what I see and what I need to do so that often I can predict what I should do before a match. Took me ages to get to that point, and sometimes things still go horribly wrong for reasons I cannot see. That is just football sometimes/

[Tonton_Zola]

Wow - that escalated quickly...

Didn't quite go in the direction I imagined it might when I read the headline. 

For what it's worth, I do echo the wider sentiment that crosses remain unsatisfyingly potent, and - whether truth to life or not - the match engine could better express more 'different kinds' of goals etc.  

Clearly, there is also an issue with Direct FKs, which - again, all statistical verisimilitude aside - should not be served up to the user as often as they are in light of, well, what appears to be close-to-zero chance of success. (0 DF goals in four years with Newcastle from hundreds of 'highlights'? i know I am a bad manager, but bejeezus that feels tough on my user satisfaction levels! "Andreas Pereira stands over it...oh....(repeat x nauseam)"

 

More widely, an area of consideration for me would be quite how demanding the game now feels tactically. I am cool with the idea that only a handful of hyper-engaged, hyper-skilled tactical gurus will squeeze every last inch of potential out of their group (this will never be me!), but the flipside - where tactical miscalculations appear (in my view) almost crippling to your team's output can feel a little dispiriting. There may be managers who prefer the strategic (i.e. long term, macro view: focused on recruitment, philosophy, macro squad building etc) to the tactical (i.e. short term, reactive, micro view: a world of TIs and PIs, focus on opposition etc), and - purely for sheer playability's sake - would be cool for these guys to get oxygen too! I don't expect to do as well as guys like Cleon, tweaking away to respond to Barnsley's half-time inverted wingback tactical shift, but can I at least do okay with my fairly neutral, inoffensive 4-4-2 if I have good players? 

 

Just a thought. If the game is moving in that (hyper-tactical) direction, that is totally legitimate. But a notable shift so far (or at least as I perceive it) in terms of FM18 vs previous incarnations. 

 

[mack4ever]

What is your issue with Steam? Seriously, buying a second laptop just to avoid installing Steam on your main PC is nigh on ********.

[herne79]

1 hour ago, Lazaru5 said:

Why do I say the ME is broken? Because it is, that's why...

There's no arguing with those street smarts .

Joking apart, what you are experiencing is not a broken match engine but a completely different way of putting together tactics and a new user interface from what you are used to several iterations ago.  There's a whole forum that can help you with that.

[JamieTC13]

2 hours ago, Lazaru5 said:

This is probably going to be a long post so I'll apologise now.

Why do I say the ME is broken? Because it is, that's why...

I'm no newbie to FM, I've played every iteration since it's inception up until FM11 when SI decided to force us to install Steam in order to play the game... I know (knew?) how to set up a tactic, how to manage squads, how to deal with training, how to get the best deals in contract and/or transfer negotiations (for the most part), how to take teams from the bottom rungs of the leagues to world domination, etc etc etc... Some of you may recall that with FM11 I only saved the game after every 15 matches (yes that is FIFTEEN), leaving the PC running for days on end and only saving it sooner if I had to reboot the PC, go away for a few days or if it was the end of the season so it's not as if I don't know how to play the game.

It has NEVER taken me THREE HOURS to play a single match on FM until last night! 3 hours! I kid you not. I find I now have to constantly micro-manage everything throughout the match, making umpteen number of minor tactical changes just to try and win a match. I did win the match, eventually, but only after making any number of minor tactical tweaks in order to try and stop my players doing stupid, nonsensical or completely illogical things - even though many of the changes didn't change anything.

In the past your assistant's feedback and the fix would be something like this:

misplacing too many short passes > pass it longer TI

misplacing too many long passes > pass it shorter TI

misplacing too many easy passes > lower tempo TI

our passes are not finding their targets whatever the distances > increase tempo TI

So last night in order to appease my assistant I ended up with maximum tempo and go route one but did that make any difference? Well, not really, certainly no positive difference. Even before changing anything my full-backs/centre-backs were hoofing the ball long even when there were apparently at least 3 good options for a simple pass. I was using a downloaded tactic that since I've downloaded it I've changed pretty much everything within except the roles (and even at least one of those I've changed) - the reason for using a downloaded tactic being the new TC is completely different to the sliders of old that I'm used to and I'm still learning it. Despite changing the TI's my full-backs were still hoofing it long despite there being a centre-back, centre-mid and a winger all within a fairly close proximity. I changed their passing lengths, still hoofed it unnecessarily. I changed their roles, still hoofed it unnecessarily. I changed their PI's, still hoofed it unnecessarily. And so on and so forth, it just made no sense whatsoever, no matter what I did the players did whatever they wanted. Before anybody asks, mentality/strategy was set to Standard so no obvious reason why they should be hoofing the ball.

But it didn't end there. Despite having corner takers assigned they were being taken by a player that had (in my eyes) completely unsuitable attributes for taking corners - one of which led to a conceded goal on the break as he tried to cross it to where HE was supposed to be... And talking of corners, oh my, where to begin...

First off let's go with defending corners. Because the training has also changed massively from the FM11 days I have my assistant set to manage training, do they not bother working on defending set-pieces unless told to do so? I'm guessing not which must be a real downer for new players to FM when they see their team totally ignore the instructions you set in the TC. Example: this is a corner we conceded from

 

the two players stood below the penalty spot are supposed to be 1. mark tall and 2. man mark and yet there are two players above the pen spot unmarked. The player to the left of the pen spot is set to mark tall and indeed he is my tallest player marking their tallest player BUT when the corner comes across, he follows the player until the other player told to mark tall "takes over" but as he is a good few inches shorter and (presumably) moving backwards and therefore unable to generate a jump the opposing player wins the header, nods it down to one of the unmarked players who belts it into the back of the net. Now yes my team haven't been told to focus on defending set-pieces prior to the match but the instructions are fairly simple, i.e. MARK SOMEONE! But obviously they don't...

Then as we approach the last ten minutes of the game winning 3-2 (only because of my afore-mentioned micro-managing of the match) I tell the team to take short corners, a routine for which I have already created and obviously loaded at the same time as changing the instruction to take them short. I'd also changed strategy/mentality to defensive and increased time-wasting to maximum. 

What happens? Well obviously we just keep firing the ball across the box, no short corner, no keeping the ball in the corner, just give the ball away to the opposition who have 7 players in the box to my 4... 

and this didn't just happen once, but at least twice more IIRC so it wasn't as if they needed to adjust to the new instructions, they just ignored them. I could go on about other issues re: corners, corner takers, corner routines, etc, but I think you get the point, corners are broken..

I've already mentioned in the Match Engine forum about low crossing seemingly not working since the hotfix and again, despite being told to use low crosses my players crossed one in ten low (if that many) all the rest were just bread and butter for the opposition defence and even those low crosses weren't towards any of my players

It's not like I can even tell my strikers where to aim their crosses anymore, it's an instruction that has been removed in the new TC, but as the low crosses that did come in were from my strikers you'd have thought they might try and find their strike partner, no? No.. obviously not, that would be too simple.

I haven't even touched on the defenders backing away from the ball instead of attacking it (something I thought had been fixed in the FM11.3 ME), the ball hitting players on the back when they should be facing it (I can't believe that this is STILL an issue), players passing it to the opposition when the simple pass is to a team mate (in fact, "simple passes" appear to be virtually impossible for my players to execute at all), players passing it out of play, players stopping the ball for the opposition player to collect even when it would be our ball if it went out of play, or the goalkeeper ignoring virtually all PI's and just hoofing the ball down the centre of the pitch.

It's more than just frustrating, it almost makes me want to cry, nothing seems to work like it used to or like you would expect it to and having to micro-manage each match for 3 hours at a time is not going to endear me to FM18 for very long.

I could go on and on and on about all the issues I faced in just this one match but as I hope my few examples demonstrates the title of this post is not hyperbole as some will try to say, the match engine truly is broken (as is the TC, training, and pretty much everything else to do with FM18).

It's not fun anymore, it's horrible, and when you have forked out over £165 in order to play the game it's downright disappointing.

 

N.B. £165 = £105+ for 2nd hand laptop cos Steam is not going anywhere near my main PC anytime before I die; £15+ for a new battery for the laptop and £45 for FM18 Limited Edition from GAME (£45!!!)

i agree with every word you are saying mate and jesus it is nice to finally hear someone who nose what their on about with all the bugs and the terrible match engine their are just so many things wrong with FM18 it's unreal 

[warlock]

Each to their own, eh? My match engine isn't broken - it's working very well. Not perfect, but I've played every day since the beta launched and I'm having a great time.

Good rant, though.

[JamieTC13]

43 minutes ago, herne79 said:

There's no arguing with those street smarts .

Joking apart, what you are experiencing is not a broken match engine but a completely different way of putting together tactics and a new user interface from what you are used to several iterations ago.  There's a whole forum that can help you with that.

not a broken match engine are you for real the match engine is terrible 

[MarcxD]

3 hours ago, Lazaru5 said:

N.B. £165 = £105+ for 2nd hand laptop cos Steam is not going anywhere near my main PC anytime before I die

[Tony Wright 747]

Unfortunately there has been problems with the ME since FM14.  When SI fix or attempt to fix a particular problem it has a knock on effect and causes another problem, and fixing that causes another and so on.  Now this is understandable given the complexity of the operation, but what doesn't help is when people deny that there is a problem.  Of course the game can be enjoyed with a defective ME, but that does not alter the fact that the ME is not as good as it could be or indeed should be at this stage of the games development.

 

On the other point I can understand thet the OP does not want Steam on their main computer.   I use a dedicated PC for all my games and whilst I am quite happy for Steam to be installed on that, I wouldn't want it on the laptop I use for other purposes.

[Guest]

The steam stuff is strange but hey, each to their own opinion of that much discussed subject.

As for the ME I would but agree that’s it’s broken, I don’t like the limititations that persist from CM4 & the lack of challenge offered by AI managers through the tactics code means I no longer love FM is the way I once did but that doesn’t mean it’s fundamentally broken.

As others have already touched on it seems the OP & maybe others that agree are stuck in the past & long for the min/max slider interface that allowed for users to break the ME or download proven super tactics that would allow FM to be played without much thought outside of training & transfers as such tactics turned the match into an irrelevance because a win was all but assured.

[herne79]

2 hours ago, jckc221013jamie said:

not a broken match engine are you for real the match engine is terrible 

 

1 hour ago, Tony Wright 747 said:

what doesn't help is when people deny that there is a problem

What doesn't help is when people don't properly read what is being written.

The OP is struggling to come to grips with the updated tactical settings that he's used to, having not played the game for several years.  It's a whole new world and he doesn't understand it which is why the ME is getting the blame, hence me suggesting he visits the Tactics forum.

Is the ME perfect?  No of course not.  Is it "broken"?  No of course not as well.  Can it be improved?  Yes absolutely.  But I do think it might be worth both of you visiting the Tactics forum as well as you clearly both have issues.

[lemeuresnew]

i agree with you on the corners issue. a man not marking properly, i can just about put up with. being a Liverpool supporter, i am used to seeing defenders do nothing they are told. but when it is as simple as taking a short corner to keep possession and waste time, and they continually ignore you? yeah, that feels more bugged than something that happens irl

[Tony Wright 747]

On 03/01/2018 at 21:31, herne79 said:

 

What doesn't help is when people don't properly read what is being written.

The OP is struggling to come to grips with the updated tactical settings that he's used to, having not played the game for several years.  It's a whole new world and he doesn't understand it which is why the ME is getting the blame, hence me suggesting he visits the Tactics forum.

Is the ME perfect?  No of course not.  Is it "broken"?  No of course not as well.  Can it be improved?  Yes absolutely.  But I do think it might be worth both of you visiting the Tactics forum as well as you clearly both have issues.

No I dont have issues with my tactics, I have had successful saves with various editions, but this does not distract from the fact that there have been more issues with the ME post FM14 than pre FM14

[Guest El Payaso]

I think that the goal variation in this match engine might be the worst that FM has ever created. Especially when I look at AI matches the goals are always like copies of each other with very few scenarios: throw-in tiki-taka, a set piece and attacking side collecting the loose ball and eventually whipping a cross in which is scored, a striker setting up someone from edge of the penalty area or just run down the flank and a cross. Would say that 70-80% of the goals that I have seen from the AI have been from crosses and players like Hazard, Alexis etc. are scoring them. While players like Silva and Fabregas are playing with zero goals and assists.

I haven't seen a single goal from for example a playmaker playing a long creative through ball, a goal from direct free kick or a good counter attack goal. This engine simply is really boring to watch and I simply don't see much that could happen in real football when I watch it. That's why I have been playing with only commentary for a while as in terms of statistics it's a good game. The so called football that they are able to produce is simply awful looking to me. 

Really small percentage of the goals for me have anything to do with football or style of plays/tactics creating certain scenarios and really few goals scored actually make any sense.

[sporadicsmiles]

7 hours ago, Tony Wright 747 said:

No I dont have issues with my tactics, I have had successful saves with various editions, but this does not distract from the fact that there have been more issues with the ME post FM14 than pre FM14

Have you gone back and played an older version of the game recently? It is horrible compared to the current match engine. The newer versions of the MEs have been far, far superior to the old. Of course, implementing new code for this can cause issues, and I am definitely not saying there are not things that could be improved. Overall, however, there are no game breaking bugs.

Also, if you say you never have issues with tactics you are just plain wrong. Everyone has issues with tactics at times. Those games where things go to hell for reasons we do not understand. That is almost always tactical.

[forameuss]

On 1/3/2018 at 16:24, Lazaru5 said:

It has NEVER taken me THREE HOURS to play a single match on FM until last night! 3 hours! I kid you not. I find I now have to constantly micro-manage everything throughout the match, making umpteen number of minor tactical changes just to try and win a match. I did win the match, eventually, but only after making any number of minor tactical tweaks in order to try and stop my players doing stupid, nonsensical or completely illogical things - even though many of the changes didn't change anything.

I've never understood this.  Some seem to be adamant that you absolutely have to micro-manage, when I've never had to. Honestly, I play the game in a pretty dumb way.  I set out how I want to play (badly), auto-pick my team (changing a player or two in if I disagree, which is rare) and then only avoid hitting the instant result because I haven't got around to putting a skin on with that enabled.  When I'm watching the match, the only changes I make tactically are subs (if I remember to do them) or changing the mentality to overload or contain depending on results.  If you're taking three hours to play a match, that isn't a problem with the game, that's a level of OCD that means that playing a game like this is likely not for you.  And that's not a "lol filthy casuals" remark - realising that you don't enjoy the game and deciding not to play it is absolutely fine, and a stage I've been through several times with the game.

On 1/3/2018 at 16:24, Lazaru5 said:

So last night in order to appease my assistant

This is another odd comment.  Assistant advice lacks any sort of context, and is probably best ignored.  Are you applying everything they're saying?  

On 1/3/2018 at 16:24, Lazaru5 said:

N.B. £165 = £105+ for 2nd hand laptop cos Steam is not going anywhere near my main PC anytime before I die; £15+ for a new battery for the laptop and £45 for FM18 Limited Edition from GAME (£45!!!)

Sorry, but that's mental.  I echo the curiosity over what Steam has done to you that's so abhorrent, and if you're going to the lengths of spending three figures just to avoid that then...well, it's a bit odd.

On 1/3/2018 at 19:46, Tony Wright 747 said:

Unfortunately there has been problems with the ME since FM14

...

No I dont have issues with my tactics, I have had successful saves with various editions, but this does not distract from the fact that there have been more issues with the ME post FM14 than pre FM14

There has been problems with every single ME they've ever done, that's the nature of things.  It's hardly some new phenomena.

And the second part is just ridiculous.  You really believe that the ME now has more issues than "buy-a-fast-player-and-clean-up" FM12 and whatever engine made the Diablo tactic essentially a cheat code?  

 

6 hours ago, El Payaso said:

I haven't seen a single goal from for example a playmaker playing a long creative through ball, a goal from direct free kick or a good counter attack goal. This engine simply is really boring to watch and I simply don't see much that could happen in real football when I watch it. That's why I have been playing with only commentary for a while as in terms of statistics it's a good game. The so called football that they are able to produce is simply awful looking to me. 

Really small percentage of the goals for me have anything to do with football or style of plays/tactics creating certain scenarios and really few goals scored actually make any sense.

Doesn't mean they don't exist.  I've seen several examples of all three of the types you've mentioned.  Direct free kick goals are rare, but I've scored some and conceded some, and I've specialised in counter-attacking football with the side I'm managing.  I've managed to build a team with a distinct style of play - wonderful to watch going forward and absolutely woeful going in the other direction.  

[Tony Wright 747]

1 hour ago, sporadicsmiles said:

Have you gone back and played an older version of the game recently? It is horrible compared to the current match engine. The newer versions of the MEs have been far, far superior to the old. Of course, implementing new code for this can cause issues, and I am definitely not saying there are not things that could be improved. Overall, however, there are no game breaking bugs.

Also, if you say you never have issues with tactics you are just plain wrong. Everyone has issues with tactics at times. Those games where things go to hell for reasons we do not understand. That is almost always tactical.

I play FM12 and FM16, mostly FM12 because I prefer it and no I never cheat and exploit the ME, I just use tactics that I would in a real game and not a game

[forameuss]

1 minute ago, Tony Wright 747 said:

I play FM12 and FM16, mostly FM12 because I prefer it and no I never cheat and exploit the ME, I just use tactics that I would in a real game and not a game

It was nigh-on impossible not to exploit the FM12 ME.  There wasn't one particularly strong tactic, but the "right" way to do things (ie being successful in-game) was a much, much larger area than the "wrong" way to do things, purely down to how it was built and the lack of any collision detection.  

[Tony Wright 747]

23 minutes ago, forameuss said:

I've never understood this.  Some seem to be adamant that you absolutely have to micro-manage, when I've never had to. Honestly, I play the game in a pretty dumb way.  I set out how I want to play (badly), auto-pick my team (changing a player or two in if I disagree, which is rare) and then only avoid hitting the instant result because I haven't got around to putting a skin on with that enabled.  When I'm watching the match, the only changes I make tactically are subs (if I remember to do them) or changing the mentality to overload or contain depending on results.  If you're taking three hours to play a match, that isn't a problem with the game, that's a level of OCD that means that playing a game like this is likely not for you.  And that's not a "lol filthy casuals" remark - realising that you don't enjoy the game and deciding not to play it is absolutely fine, and a stage I've been through several times with the game.

This is another odd comment.  Assistant advice lacks any sort of context, and is probably best ignored.  Are you applying everything they're saying?  

Sorry, but that's mental.  I echo the curiosity over what Steam has done to you that's so abhorrent, and if you're going to the lengths of spending three figures just to avoid that then...well, it's a bit odd.

There has been problems with every single ME they've ever done, that's the nature of things.  It's hardly some new phenomena.

And the second part is just ridiculous.  You really believe that the ME now has more issues than "buy-a-fast-player-and-clean-up" FM12 and whatever engine made the Diablo tactic essentially a cheat code?  

 

Doesn't mean they don't exist.  I've seen several examples of all three of the types you've mentioned.  Direct free kick goals are rare, but I've scored some and conceded some, and I've specialised in counter-attacking football with the side I'm managing.  I've managed to build a team with a distinct style of play - wonderful to watch going forward and absolutely woeful going in the other direction.  

Yes I believe that there have been more issues with the ME post FM14 than before and I think the forums will bear me out on this and no I dont use exploits as I believe thats cheating, I try and play the game as if it was real.

[Tony Wright 747]

4 minutes ago, forameuss said:

It was nigh-on impossible not to exploit the FM12 ME.  There wasn't one particularly strong tactic, but the "right" way to do things (ie being successful in-game) was a much, much larger area than the "wrong" way to do things, purely down to how it was built and the lack of any collision detection.  

Not sure I agree with this forameuss, the way I play the game I don't find FM12 any easier/harder than FM16, yes I could cheat, but what's the point of that I would only be cheating myself.

[forameuss]

Just now, Tony Wright 747 said:

Not sure I agree with this forameuss, the way I play the game I don't find FM12 any easier/harder than FM16, yes I could cheat, but what's the point of that I would only be cheating myself.

The only way you could reliably avoid exploiting the issues FM12 had was to completely avoid buying forwards with any kind of pace.  Or playing Kanu.  Anyone with decent standards in those key attributes would ghost, quite literally, through defenders on their way to consistently great goal hauls.  Great fun, but that doesn't shield it from criticism in terms of how good the engine was.  But I don't expect some to agree given it seems bugs are only GAMEBREAKING or HORRENDOUS when things go against you.  An engine with a glaring problem that makes things "easier" is certainly better than one that makes things less enjoyable, but they're both still flawed.

10 minutes ago, Tony Wright 747 said:

Yes I believe that there have been more issues with the ME post FM14 than before and I think the forums will bear me out on this and no I dont use exploits as I believe thats cheating, I try and play the game as if it was real.

We hadn't reached the golden age of entitlement and people getting raging at the smallest thing, and communities were far less toxic.  And far less people would use them.  It doesn't matter what you believe the forums were like, every single match engine has had their significant issues, and I'd imagine PaulC would agree with that.

[Tony Wright 747]

3 hours ago, forameuss said:

The only way you could reliably avoid exploiting the issues FM12 had was to completely avoid buying forwards with any kind of pace.  Or playing Kanu.  Anyone with decent standards in those key attributes would ghost, quite literally, through defenders on their way to consistently great goal hauls.  Great fun, but that doesn't shield it from criticism in terms of how good the engine was.  But I don't expect some to agree given it seems bugs are only GAMEBREAKING or HORRENDOUS when things go against you.  An engine with a glaring problem that makes things "easier" is certainly better than one that makes things less enjoyable, but they're both still flawed.

We hadn't reached the golden age of entitlement and people getting raging at the smallest thing, and communities were far less toxic.  And far less people would use them.  It doesn't matter what you believe the forums were like, every single match engine has had their significant issues, and I'd imagine PaulC would agree with that.

As I said, the results I get in FM12 are the same as I would expect to get in FM16.  When buying players I look at all attributes, not just pace and study the scouting reports to help my judgement.

 

I think the forums are a lot less toxic than they were in the early days, the mods are certainly more aggressive than they used to be and threads get closed down more often.  I think that there was more debate allowed in the early days.   I didn't say that there were no issues with the ME in earlier builds, just that they seemed less than recent builds.

[themadsheep2001]

1 hour ago, Tony Wright 747 said:

As I said, the results I get in FM12 are the same as I would expect to get in FM16.  When buying players I look at all attributes, not just pace and study the scouting reports to help my judgement.

 

I think the forums are a lot less toxic than they were in the early days, the mods are certainly more aggressive than they used to be and threads get closed down more often.  I think that there was more debate allowed in the early days.   I didn't say that there were no issues with the ME in earlier builds, just that they seemed less than recent builds.

It didn't matter how you looked at a player. Any pacy forward would simply pass through the defender on their way to goal. Couple that with far more through balls than real life and it was a goal fest

Respectfully Tony, you joined in 2016, so you're didn't see that the"debate" was mostly abuse, the forums were horrendous. As of October, which is when Neil last mentioned it, there were objectively less bugs in FM18 than in any previous editions 

[Tony Wright 747]

1 hour ago, themadsheep2001 said:

It didn't matter how you looked at a player. Any pacy forward would simply pass through the defender on their way to goal. Couple that with far more through balls than real life and it was a goal fest

Respectably Tony, you joined in 2016, so you're didn't see that the"debate" was mostly abuse, the forums were horrendous. As of October, which is when Neil last mentioned it, there were objectively less bugs in FM18 than in any previous editions 

 

1 hour ago, themadsheep2001 said:

It didn't matter how you looked at a player. Any pacy forward would simply pass through the defender on their way to goal. Couple that with far more through balls than real life and it was a goal fest

Respectfully Tony, you joined in 2016, so you're didn't see that the"debate" was mostly abuse, the forums were horrendous. As of October, which is when Neil last mentioned it, there were objectively less bugs in FM18 than in any previous editions 

Respectfully I take your point on your opinion of FM12.   I joined the forums in the early 2000's under a works log in (I can't even remember what my username was now, ) and rejoined in 2016 under a different log in after my retirement, so I well remember what the forums were like in those days.  As for bugs I am not sure the issues with the ME are actually bugs and as I said in an earlier post, I appreciate the difficulty SI would have in addressing these issues, but I am still dissapointed in the recent progress of the ME.

[themadsheep2001]

1 hour ago, Tony Wright 747 said:

 

Respectfully I take your point on your opinion of FM12.   I joined the forums in the early 2000's under a works log in (I can't even remember what my username was now, ) and rejoined in 2016 under a different log in after my retirement, so I well remember what the forums were like in those days.  As for bugs I am not sure the issues with the ME are actually bugs and as I said in an earlier post, I appreciate the difficulty SI would have in addressing these issues, but I am still dissapointed in the recent progress of the ME.

I would say there are certainly issues in the ME that fall under "buggy" behaviour or need more work (splitting hairs really, as either way  they need addressing). I'd agree the game needs another ME update. I think it's walking on a tightrope where its not quite where it should be, but a solid ME update could make it brilliant.

[Tony Wright 747]

26 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

I would say there are certainly issues in the ME that fall under "buggy" behaviour or need more work (splitting hairs really, as either way  they need addressing). I'd agree the game needs another ME update. I think it's walking on a tightrope where its not quite where it should be, but a solid ME update could make it brilliant.

I would certainly agree with that

[JordanMilly]

17 hours ago, El Payaso said:

I haven't seen a single goal from for example a playmaker playing a long creative through ball, a goal from direct free kick or a good counter attack goal. 

Where as I get a fairly accurate number of direct free kick goals a season with Coutinho at Liverpool (a few a season), and a significant proportion of my goals come from counter-attacks and through balls from playmakers, because that's what I set my tactics up to do. If you aren't putting your squad/formation/tactics together to do anything other than playing wide and scoring from crosses, don't be surprised if those are the vast majority of the goals you see.

[Guest El Payaso]

2 hours ago, JordanMillward_1 said:

Where as I get a fairly accurate number of direct free kick goals a season with Coutinho at Liverpool (a few a season), and a significant proportion of my goals come from counter-attacks and through balls from playmakers, because that's what I set my tactics up to do. If you aren't putting your squad/formation/tactics together to do anything other than playing wide and scoring from crosses, don't be surprised if those are the vast majority of the goals you see.

I'm not controlling every club on my save. 

City for example have Silva and de Bruyne in midfield in 4-1-2-3 DM and neither of them is getting hardly any assists or goals, same goes with Barcelona with Rakitic and Paulinho (whom I have tweaked to match more his form/level in real life), Chelsea (Fabregas and Kante) and Real Madrid (Modric and Kroos). All of these midfielders are having probably much more of the ball than they usually do in real life (well at least my midfielders are passing the ball around at least two times more than in real life) and still not doing anything with it in terms of goals and assists. At the same time Hazard has for example scored more goals from crosses (and deflected crosses) in two games than in his entire career at Chelsea. Assists mainly are coming from strikers and wide players and this makes multiple striker formations flourish and even mediocre strikers being profilic goalscorers: Defoe and Benteke for example are scoring more than goal per game as the engine is clearly favoring their style of play: lots of goals from crosses and with the Bournemouth one of the strikers constantly setting the other one up. 

[akkm]

12 hours ago, forameuss said:

It was nigh-on impossible not to exploit the FM12 ME.  There wasn't one particularly strong tactic, but the "right" way to do things (ie being successful in-game) was a much, much larger area than the "wrong" way to do things, purely down to how it was built and the lack of any collision detection.  

Nonsense. It was very easy to not exploit it

Your confirmation bias against FM12 escalates by the post...what did it do to you...you seem to have FM12 trauma in how you react to it

[forameuss]

31 minutes ago, akkm said:

Nonsense. It was very easy to not exploit it

Your confirmation bias against FM12 escalates by the post...what did it do to you...you seem to have FM12 trauma in how you react to it

Nah...not very convincing.

FM12 was enjoyable, it was quite easy to be successful in it.  It's just amusing how high a pedestal people see to put it on, how it's somehow this example of being a brilliant ME.  Purely because the bugs went in the users favour.

[Cap'nRad]

13 hours ago, forameuss said:

The only way you could reliably avoid exploiting the issues FM12 had was to completely avoid buying forwards with any kind of pace.  Or playing Kanu.  Anyone with decent standards in those key attributes would ghost, quite literally, through defenders on their way to consistently great goal hauls.

Playing fm12 right now, it's not like this at all.

[akkm]

7 minutes ago, forameuss said:

Nah...not very convincing.

FM12 was enjoyable, it was quite easy to be successful in it.  It's just amusing how high a pedestal people see to put it on, how it's somehow this example of being a brilliant ME.  Purely because the bugs went in the users favour.

i know what you mean

The flip side though is anyone using that exploit to get enjoyment and hold it on a pedestal as a result is the reason you dismiss it as folly...so the reality is both you and whoever got enjoyment from that exploit are forming an opinion of the match engine based on a specific element of the engine...so your conclusions are drawn by exercising confirmation bias which is overriding rational assessment of it on the whole...the bias just falls either side of it 

There was a lot more to it than that exploit...it's as simple as that

[Los_Culés]

12 hours ago, Cap'nRad said:

Playing fm12 right now, it's not like this at all.

I am playing FM11 (pretty much same engine as FM12) and I agree with you. 

I use tactics based on real life and I really do not have feeling that I exploit anything. I get realistic results and lot of fun (my striker with pace 9 has more goals than the other one with pace 15). The game is not just about pace, also the pace argument is getting quite old. Yes, pace is a bit overpowered, no doubt, but the pace works for the opposition in the same way as for the player. If somebody wants to exploit something, it can be done in every version of CM/FM.

[Tony Wright 747]

4 minutes ago, Los_Culés said:

I am playing FM11 (pretty much same engine as FM12) and I agree with you. 

I use tactics based on real life and I really do not have feeling that I exploit anything. I get realistic results and lot of fun (my striker with pace 9 has more goals than the other one with pace 15). The game is not just about pace, also the pace argument is getting quite old. Yes, pace is a bit overpowered, no doubt, but the pace works for the opposition in the same way as for the player. If somebody wants to exploit something, it can be done in every version of CM/FM.

Well said, I 100% agree with this.

[Tony Wright 747]

13 hours ago, forameuss said:

Nah...not very convincing.

FM12 was enjoyable, it was quite easy to be successful in it.  It's just amusing how high a pedestal people see to put it on, how it's somehow this example of being a brilliant ME.  Purely because the bugs went in the users favour.

You are right, it is on a high pedestal, in most polls for the best FM it is usually in second place behind the current release.  It would be natural for any current release to be in first place, but I dont believe FM12 being in second place is due to the ME being in the user's favour, but more to do with FM12 ME being the peak of the "old" ME before the overhaul with the bias being more on player roles.

[Guest]

The irony I see with FM12 being so highly regarded is that it is that version which saw me finally start posting in the bugs forum whenever I saw something that was not right.

By the end of that version’s cycle I must have had close to a thousand bug forum posts. The game was riddled with flaws & I can only assume that 7 years of community perfected tactics & training strategies made the game enjoyable plus it was the only FM released with the same ME as the previous version so there was no need to adapt from FM11 due to ME code improvements.

[themadsheep2001]

1 minute ago, Barside said:

The irony I see with FM12 being so highly regarded is that it is that version which saw me finally start posting in the bugs forum whenever I saw something that was not right.

By the end of that version’s cycle I must have had close to a thousand bug forum posts. The game was riddled with flaws & I can only assume that 7 years of community perfected tactics & training strategies made the game enjoyable.

Yep, that was what got me into bug reporting too. Still don't understand how many people failed to see the broken defensive positioning  of Centre mids back then

[forameuss]

21 hours ago, akkm said:

i know what you mean

The flip side though is anyone using that exploit to get enjoyment and hold it on a pedestal as a result is the reason you dismiss it as folly...so the reality is both you and whoever got enjoyment from that exploit are forming an opinion of the match engine based on a specific element of the engine...so your conclusions are drawn by exercising confirmation bias which is overriding rational assessment of it on the whole...the bias just falls either side of it 

There was a lot more to it than that exploit...it's as simple as that

I'm not dismissing anything actually.  I'm not saying anyone that used it was some kind of terrible person, or that they were necessarily wrong to take enjoyment out of it.  I only disagree with those that swear blind that there was no exploits, and that it was a good match engine quality-wise.  It wasn't, from a purely technical standpoint at least.  Was it filled with easily exploitable holes?  Absolutely.  Was it enjoyable to play?  Indeed it was.

And I don't see what's biased about any of what i said, it's largely facts.  There was no collision detection.  Fast players ghosted through the opposition.  It was extremely easy as a result.  That's perfectly rational and perfectly true.

[Tony Wright 747]

4 minutes ago, forameuss said:

I'm not dismissing anything actually.  I'm not saying anyone that used it was some kind of terrible person, or that they were necessarily wrong to take enjoyment out of it.  I only disagree with those that swear blind that there was no exploits, and that it was a good match engine quality-wise.  It wasn't, from a purely technical standpoint at least.  Was it filled with easily exploitable holes?  Absolutely.  Was it enjoyable to play?  Indeed it was.

And I don't see what's biased about any of what i said, it's largely facts.  There was no collision detection.  Fast players ghosted through the opposition.  It was extremely easy as a result.  That's perfectly rational and perfectly true.

Yes, we know that there was exploits, there is in every ME, if everyone used those exploits is another matter.  I still believe it was a good match engine quality wisethat has stood the test of time.

 

As you are so knowlegable about match engines it would be interesting to hear which ME you think is/was the best.

[forameuss]

1 minute ago, Tony Wright 747 said:

Yes, we know that there was exploits, there is in every ME, if everyone used those exploits is another matter.  I still believe it was a good match engine quality wisethat has stood the test of time.

 

As you are so knowlegable about match engines it would be interesting to hear which ME you think is/was the best.

Usually the latest one they release, that's consistently the best from a technical perspective, obviously.  No match engine bugs have ever bothered me enough as they seem to with others anyway.  Didn't enjoy FM15 or FM17 as a whole experience, 16 was OK.

[Tony Wright 747]

13 minutes ago, forameuss said:

Usually the latest one they release, that's consistently the best from a technical perspective, obviously.  No match engine bugs have ever bothered me enough as they seem to with others anyway.  Didn't enjoy FM15 or FM17 as a whole experience, 16 was OK.

I would agree with your last sentence, would absoulutely disagree with your first sentence and and am somewhat surprised with the middle one, as the ME is the most important part of the game

[forameuss]

30 minutes ago, Tony Wright 747 said:

I would agree with your last sentence, would absoulutely disagree with your first sentence and and am somewhat surprised with the middle one, as the ME is the most important part of the game

I've had a word with myself, and I think I'll just about get over you disagreeing with me.

[Svenc]

8 hours ago, Barside said:

The irony I see with FM12 being so highly regarded is that it is that version which saw me finally start posting in the bugs forum whenever I saw something that was not right.

It's not an irony insofar as that was the "end of the rope" for a development cycle. One that was considered balanced enough after iterating that SI basically didn't change a thing in two versions. Narrow and wide formations all worked equally, and so on. Plus with the "collision avoidance", similar to many discussions on these baords, that only became a "big thing" when it entered the public perception. I don't know about you, but I had only seen the extent of which this influenced matches when I was aware of what to look for. As that is mainly off the ball movement oft far from there ball currently is on the pitch, and most in-game cameras don't even display much of the fault of it... If you knew, it was like that moment when Roddy Piper in "They Live!" put on those glasses though. Actually, the moment you first start "noticing" major flaws in any release can be compared to such. When I started out, the game was flawless magic. Ever since, it's never quite the same. Simply looking for inevitably flaws on any release can suck all the fun out of it.

The reasons why I wouldn't go back to FM12: Defensive shapes such as this. If currently you may rant about the defensive behavior of forwards, that doesn't compare. Depending on which, the entire AMC stratum would be reluctant to much get back behind the ball, and teams basically "split in halves". Which was only fixed subsequently AFAIR as it was (naturally) considered to influence the amount of goals scored, which is one of the most influential things to balance, if not the most influential -- given that football in this game is eventually about goals. Additionally, matches being a good 30 minutes short, attacking movement that sees limited shifting (basically: players running forward, whereas playmakers in more recent editions can make themselves available all over the pitch etc). Plus, and this is of no debate, even the extreme passing settings not producing the extremes you would expect. Ever since a few iterations, simply fielding a target man up top sees more balls swung back to front than maxing out any sliders on FM12 and previous, etc. Outside of the game there's also the easier scouting, weaker AI, and a few other stuff, naturally. Nothing wrong with thinking it to be a more fun game at all though.

That said, the career of several of the most influential "tactical mods" started with a "match engine is broken" post, reportedly. Go for it!

[xxsasxx]

I myself are finding the same issues with the  match engine for FM18. too many penalties no matter what i use stay on feet or stuck in 3-5 a game is stupid. There are way too many silly results such as 9-2, loads of 7-2's and 5-5's. No marking of players even if set up to mark, I do like the look but I think the match engine for 2016 is way better as the results are more realistic and not stupid and generally the play is better. I am big fan of FM and have been for years but FM18 when it comes to watching the games, I am not enjoying FM18 as much as i thought I would and wont hesitate to go back to playing FM16 which was far more enjoyable when it comes to watching the matches.

[Tom8983]

Wow, all of this and nobody thought to point out the level the OP was playing at? I don't think the players at Macclesfield or Solihill Moors are going to be good enough to implement all of that micro managing somehow, do you? Even basic instructions are going to be difficult for them to do well. So the fact that they were so awful is, if anything, ultra realistic!  

[Guest]

Tutoring in the lower leagues is a good errand, trading & recovery time is precious so allocating any of it to a long term individual development project is fairly pointless because by the time the benefits come through you could had moved on to a new club or up to a higher division where the player is replaced due to not being good enough.

Much better to spend time on team tactical training & post match recovery to keep every fit.