Is Harry Kane represented correctly in the game?

[mchbitil]

I'm in Feb 2019 on my save and Kane has scored 4 goals in 22 games for Tottenham in 18/19 - feels extremely low, he should be closer to 20. His CA is 167, which also seems low.

Interestingly, if I compare him to Lukaku, the chart shape is almost identical, though in reality their styles are quite different.

I feel Kane should be much stronger.

[Smurf]

I know this won't go down well but... He has never won a trophy - not the league or anything else. He is basically open to develop one of two ways - a great player or an average player. It's unknown if he will continue his scoring streaks IRL.

Is he represented accurately in the game - I think so. 

Spurs are not a top club in the World of football, so his development maybe stiffled at a club with a low rep in both the game and IRL.

[lemeuresnew]

18 minutes ago, Smurf said:

I know this won't go down well but... He has never won a trophy - not the league or anything else. He is basically open to develop one of two ways - a great player or an average player. It's unknown if he will continue his scoring streaks IRL.

Is he represented accurately in the game - I think so. 

Spurs are not a top club in the World of football, so his development maybe stiffled at a club with a low rep in both the game and IRL.

then the Premier League should have no strikers with a CA of 167? because if the top scorer in the league for 3 SEASONS isn't that good, who is?

that argument has come and gone mate. not a fan of his by any means, but facts are facts. 3 years is not a flash in the pan. 4 years a 20 a season goal scorer is a third of a players career. stop pretending he is anything other than world class. you know better than that and just make yourself look foolish. and i am trying to assume you are not just trolling the guy 

[Smurf]

Absolutely not trolling and that's an awful thing to suggest.

He has not won a single trophy, that's a fact. I can't change that. Spurs have not won any major trophies, I cannot change that.

167 is a pretty decent rating in the game.

 

He's a brilliant striker and will probably go on to great things. He has had a fantastic 2 seasons and going on to 3 seasons as a top goalscorer. 

 

I hope he goes on to do even better.

But he's accurate in the game - as I said, in the game he can 1 of 2 ways, really great or an average player.

It just so happens in your game he has gone the other way.

Players CA will rise until the age of 28 - so there's no reason why he won't go on to make better in the game. 

In the game, he is going the other way - and it's entirely plausible that will happen in real life - but not likely.

 

 

[HUNT3R]

1 hour ago, mchbitil said:

His CA is 167, which also seems low.

Interestingly, if I compare him to Lukaku, the chart shape is almost identical, though in reality their styles are quite different.

I feel Kane should be much stronger

You're assuming that it has to do with Kane and his ability (CA means nothing here, but rather his attributes and attribute spread) when it may not be the case at all. There are other factors too, like how well the team is doing as a whole - so their management and tactical setup and how Kane fits/doesn't fit into this and how Kane is being used.

[lemeuresnew]

6 minutes ago, Smurf said:

He has not won a single trophy, that's a fact. I can't change that. Spurs have not won any major trophies, I cannot change that.

 

i dont see why that matters? do you think Coutinho for Liverpool has developed badly because he hasn't won a trophy in 6 years, and Barcelona are wrong to think he is good enough to improve there team? you cannot judge players on trophies like that if they are playing out of the top teams of a league, else only 2 or 3 teams could possibly have world class players in a league

[enigmatic]

Kane's two-footedness means that he's better in the game than it might appear from comparing his visible attributes directly with others. And he really doesn't have any pace, which is a big deal for CA and striker performance in FM. But if there's anyone in the game that deserves 19 or 20 finishing it'd be him, and I think the "but giving him higher attributes just makes him score a goal a game" ship sailed a while ago...

As for people posting that who's scored 31, 28, 35 and 24 from 24 in his last three and a half seasons in the PL and Europe might be having his development stifled so he turns out to be an average player.  

If it's an awful thing to suggest that they're trolling, perhaps we should give them the benefit of the doubt and assume they are instead unfortunate enough to have the worst football knowledge of anyone posting on these forums. 

[RBKalle]

If Messi and C.Ronaldo can't seem to score more than 20 goals for the AI, (while absolutely RUBBISH strikers can go double-digits), it's hardly surprising that Kane hasn't been coming close to his real-life figures.

CA and attributes can be spot-on, but unfortunately they don't really translate as well in the ME, especially at the hands of the AI managers

[sc91]

53 minutes ago, Smurf said:

I know this won't go down well but... He has never won a trophy - not the league or anything else. He is basically open to develop one of two ways - a great player or an average player. It's unknown if he will continue his scoring streaks IRL.

Is he represented accurately in the game - I think so. 

Spurs are not a top club in the World of football, so his development maybe stiffled at a club with a low rep in both the game and IRL.

Bet David May was insanely brilliant off that logic.

[lemeuresnew]

4 minutes ago, enigmatic said:

If it's an awful thing to suggest that they're trolling, perhaps we should give them the benefit of the doubt and assume they are instead unfortunate enough to have the worst football knowledge of anyone posting on these forums. 

you can tell he is a clever enough guy, hence the suggestion. i just struggle to believe, same as yourself, anyone can say something about him like that and mean it 

[s1111]

Only 9 strikers start the game with a higher CA than Kane and most of them have rightly better physicals which eat a lot of CA. He's also got the PA to grow to be better or at least as good as 6 of them. He's got good hidden attributes too.

If he's not performing it's down to bad AI management and the fact that strikers without high pace and acceleration can struggle in the ME. 

[Spurs08]

The fact he's at Spurs and they haven't won trophies should if anything justify higher attributes. He's not been thriving due to chances made by world-class teammates, and is averaging around a goal per game at the top level regardless. When's the last time someone actually did that consistently without playing for a team that's even winning titles, let alone dominating leagues like Barca and Madrid often manage?

[Swindon69]

He seems to be going ok in my save 250 goals scored over 10 seasons.

[Rashidi]

When people say a player should be doing better, he will if he is in the right system surrounded by players playing the right roles. In my save game Harry Kane is blistering the English premier league and leading the goal scoring charts, and has the highest average rating in the league. So maybe this AI got the mix right. 

Now just because his attributes are good, that does not mean he should be scoring a lot of goals. It just means that he could score a lot if he was managed correctly. Ultimately we should not judge a player's potential performance  simply by his attributes. To do so would be very short-sighted.

[Bigpapa42]

I'll have a look at one or two test soaks I've run to see how the AI has done with him. But if he was consistently underperforming for the AI, that would like have been spotted in testing. If he's prolific in some saves and not as prolific in some others.... that's rather realistic. So much comes down to how a player is used and supported. I had Callum Wilson break the single-season Prem scoring record on an FM17 save and he's not an amazing striker. Morale and confidence will play a role as well.

For those who think he's not good enough in game.... what should be improved? What skills are unrealistically low? I don't see a lot that looks out of line. I think his Off the Ball and maybe his Anticipation could be up a point or two, but both are relatively high. And I'm not sure knocking them up 1 to 2 points each makes that much difference in how he performs as a whole.

[Smurf]

As I said, I'm sure he's fine in other saves and doing just fine in the scoring charts - seems to be have been proven here already. 

Glad my footballing knowledge got me this far ... 

And I don't know what I said that was so wrong - I've always said I admire Kane and he's a great striker. Best I've seen for a long time.

I'm not English, and I'm aware I'm on a forum dominated by England fans, but I don't have anything against Kane. 

From an outside perspective I think he's wasting his talent at Spurs and from my point of view hope he goes to a world class club.

The point about Coutinho - don't get the reference. Liverpool should have sold him to Barca, don't think it was fair on Coutinho at all, but Barca were knockin at Liverpools door, not Spurs' door. 

[Rashidi]

38 minutes ago, Bigpapa42 said:

I'll have a look at one or two test soaks I've run to see how the AI has done with him. But if he was consistently underperforming for the AI, that would like have been spotted in testing. If he's prolific in some saves and not as prolific in some others.... that's rather realistic. So much comes down to how a player is used and supported. I had Callum Wilson break the single-season Prem scoring record on an FM17 save and he's not an amazing striker. Morale and confidence will play a role as well.

For those who think he's not good enough in game.... what should be improved? What skills are unrealistically low? I don't see a lot that looks out of line. I think his Off the Ball and maybe his Anticipation could be up a point or two, but both are relatively high. And I'm not sure knocking them up 1 to 2 points each makes that much difference in how he performs as a whole.

His attributes are already looking overpowered to me, he hardly needs upping.

[Atarin]

1 hour ago, Smurf said:

As I said, I'm sure he's fine in other saves and doing just fine in the scoring charts - seems to be have been proven here already. 

Glad my footballing knowledge got me this far ... 

And I don't know what I said that was so wrong - I've always said I admire Kane and he's a great striker. Best I've seen for a long time.

I'm not English, and I'm aware I'm on a forum dominated by England fans, but I don't have anything against Kane. 

From an outside perspective I think he's wasting his talent at Spurs and from my point of view hope he goes to a world class club.

The point about Coutinho - don't get the reference. Liverpool should have sold him to Barca, don't think it was fair on Coutinho at all, but Barca were knockin at Liverpools door, not Spurs' door. 

Couldn't disagree more. How is he wasting his talent? He's a Spurs fan, came up through the system and is at a team on the up. Brand spanking new stadium on the near horizon, gaining experience and confidence in the Champions League and Spurs haven't been that far away from the Premier League title in recent seasons. Still a way to go but Spurs are hardly also rans (okay to be fair everyone is also rans this season but that's just because Man City are playing on cheat mode). Why would anyone want to see the best players keep disappearing off to Barca & Madrid anyway? It just makes football boring. If you want to watch that kind of All-Star rubbish go and play FIFA.

[Smurf]

Ah right so he's the next Matt Le Tissier - thanks for confirming.

[Showerman]

Smurf is definitely trolling

24 year old 2 golden boots, challenged for the title in 2 out of his first 3 full seasons, playing for a club on the up, playing in the champions league.

If he gets to 27/28 with no medals and spurs not looking like they have a chance of winning major honours, then it would be time for him to leave.

Kanes major problem in game is lack of pace, which i dont think is a hindrance for him in real life because with his strength he can keep defenders at bay, plus he is quicker with the ball running at goal then he looks.

[Atarin]

1 minute ago, Smurf said:

Ah right so he's the next Matt Le Tissier - thanks for confirming.

lol. Are you seriously comparing the perennial relegation candidates Southampton with Champions League last 16 team Tottenham Hotspur? or maybe the Dell with the new Spurs stadium? or Francis Benali with Danny Rose? Ken Moncou with Jan Vertonghen or maybe Jim Magilton with Mousa Dembele?

I should also say that your mentioning trophies that players have won as some sort of indicator of their quality is just bizarre. Cruyff never won a world cup, must be rubbish. Maradona never won a European Cup, must be rubbish. Lionel Messi hasn't won a world cup, must be rubbish. John O'Shea won numerous Premier League titles, must be world class. Angelos Charisteas has a European Winnners medal, must be a world class striker. Ridiculous. 

[tajj7]

32 minutes ago, Atarin said:

lol. Are you seriously comparing the perennial relegation candidates Southampton with Champions League last 16 team Tottenham Hotspur? or maybe the Dell with the new Spurs stadium? or Francis Benali with Danny Rose? Ken Moncou with Jan Vertonghen or maybe Jim Magilton with Mousa Dembele?

I should also say that your mentioning trophies that players have won as some sort of indicator of their quality is just bizarre. Cruyff never won a world cup, must be rubbish. Maradona never won a European Cup, must be rubbish. Lionel Messi hasn't won a world cup, must be rubbish. John O'Shea won numerous Premier League titles, must be world class. Angelos Charisteas has a European Winnners medal, must be a world class striker. Ridiculous. 

To be fair Matt Le Tiss himself is just a great example of how the 'winning trophies' thing is complete rubbish. Trophies are about teams, average players in good teams win trophies, they are still average players. Amazing players have won nothing but still were amazing players.

Matt Le Tiss and Alan Shearer being two examples of that, their teams were not great, but they were still amazing players. When you have someone like Xavi saying this about Le Tiss -

Quote

'This guy, Le Tissier, is outrageous and he never goes to a big team. He stays at Southampton. It's incredible. He could play for anyone.’

You know that trophies and who you play for is not that important. 

Personally I think Kane is due an upgrade in the main patch.  I'd expect him to be more in the 175 - 185 CA region.  But how he does in game is more to with AI management and the match engine (which IMO favours pacey strikers over others) 

[mchbitil]

5 hours ago, s1111 said:

Only 9 strikers start the game with a higher CA than Kane and most of them have rightly better physicals which eat a lot of CA. He's also got the PA to grow to be better or at least as good as 6 of them. He's got good hidden attributes too.

1

His PA is 175, so nowhere to grow.

[Guest]

PA is surprisingly low, fairly reasonable argument to be made for it to be 10-15 points higher although 175 would be spot on for a player that you think would never be more than a focused #9 which is where I suspect the smart money is on Kane's projected career path.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Atarin said:

I should also say that your mentioning trophies that players have won as some sort of indicator of their quality is just bizarre. Cruyff never won a world cup, must be rubbish. Maradona never won a European Cup, must be rubbish. Lionel Messi hasn't won a world cup, must be rubbish. John O'Shea won numerous Premier League titles, must be world class. Angelos Charisteas has a European Winnners medal, must be a world class striker. Ridiculous. 

The commenting on the lack of trophies is even more ironic considering the player who set the Premier League scoring records that Kane is already resetting has a trophy cabinet which contains a single Premier League winners medal as part of a then expensively assembled dream team.

I'll freely admit to being part of the rather sizeable group who questioned whether Kane was a flash in the pan 1-2 season hit who would tail off into mediocrity but for smurf to link ability with trophies in a team sport is baffling based on all the evidence of Kane's ability & continued improvement since those days of being tagged as a one season wonder.

[tacticsdude]

What makes Kane special is his style of play, and particularly so under the Spurs style. I've only watched him play a couple times in the CL, and already it is clear to see that guy is top talent- there's no denying he's going to be scoring goals. There is no way his development will "stifle", he's already there. The only way to stifle him is to sell him in an unfortunate scenario to a club that will bench him or try to play him on the wing or some other weird stuff (say Mourinho buys him on a whim).

But, if in your FM save he remains at Spurrs and plays under Pochettino, Kane is going to be dominating defenses for a long time to come.

11 hours ago, mchbitil said:

Kane has scored 4 goals in 22 games for Tottenham in 18/19

If Pochettino is still the manager, then IMO there's something off with the engine.

[GreenTriangle]

20 hours ago, mchbitil said:

I feel Kane should be much stronger.

He IS strong and no need more CA. But he is used in a wrong way by AI. Because AI thinks Kane is a good AF and uses him as AF. Is Kane a good AF with a mediocre dribbling attribute and an average acceleration attribute ? NO.

[Lucas_26_7]

Have never seen the 'not won any titles' used to talk about any player besides Harry Kane. He is the top scorer and has been three years in a row, anyone arguing he isn't world class simply doesn't understand football and gets their football knowledge from Soccer Memes.

[RBKalle]

29 minuti fa, Lucas_26_7 ha scritto:

Have never seen the 'not won any titles' used to talk about any player

Not as extreme as Smurf's take on Kane, but Totti's career has often (and not without merit) been criticized for his lack of "courage" in terms of choices.

[Lucas_26_7]

1 minute ago, RBKalle said:

Not as extreme as Smurf's take on Kane, but Totti's career has often (and not without merit) been criticized for his lack of "courage" in terms of choices.

And this view is silly as well, people bemoan the loyalty of modern day footballers then guys like Kane stay at Spurs for a few years and they are constantly pushed by the media to move to a 'world class club'. Was particularly funny when they were suggesting he move to Man United in the summer despite us consistently finishing above them the past few years.

[RBKalle]

6 minuti fa, Lucas_26_7 ha scritto:

And this view is silly as well, people bemoan the loyalty of modern day footballers then guys like Kane stay at Spurs for a few years and they are constantly pushed by the media to move to a 'world class club'. Was particularly funny when they were suggesting he move to Man United in the summer despite us consistently finishing above them the past few years.

We can debate about how loyalty is a construct from a bygone era, and it shouldn't maybe apply to World Class players anyway.

Football is an individual sport after all, and it's a bit of a waste having the (alleged) best domestic player of a generation stay at a quasi-Top Club. I see fans will love that, but from a neutral standpoint, it was frustrating watching Totti play for a Coppa Italia here and there, while his talent could have brought him to Champions League glory. Or, in a different scenario, would have seen him flop horribly, and we'd been spared years of "Totti's the best Italian player ever".

Man United ARE a bigger team than Spurs, regardless of their recent form, so it makes sense for the neutrals (and the media) to want Kane move away from a club that, at the moment, is still not ready to become a serious title challenger, and will likely never be one.

[Lucas_26_7]

33 minutes ago, RBKalle said:

We can debate about how loyalty is a construct from a bygone era, and it shouldn't maybe apply to World Class players anyway.

Football is an individual sport after all, and it's a bit of a waste having the (alleged) best domestic player of a generation stay at a quasi-Top Club. I see fans will love that, but from a neutral standpoint, it was frustrating watching Totti play for a Coppa Italia here and there, while his talent could have brought him to Champions League glory. Or, in a different scenario, would have seen him flop horribly, and we'd been spared years of "Totti's the best Italian player ever".

Man United ARE a bigger team than Spurs, regardless of their recent form, so it makes sense for the neutrals (and the media) to want Kane move away from a club that, at the moment, is still not ready to become a serious title challenger, and will likely never be one.

Well it isn't, not sure how you've come to that conclusion.

 

And of course United are a bigger club than Spurs, but in terms of the past few seasons Spurs have challenged for titles regularly and United haven't, simple as that. This year United have probably been better, but lets be honest neither are challenging for the title as it is a City procession.

[RBKalle]

3 minuti fa, Lucas_26_7 ha scritto:

Well it isn't, not sure how you've come to that conclusion.

It's not an individual sport like, say, tennis, but the single player can still be more important than the team.

That's why the average fan still knows about Pelé and Maradona, but you'll need to find a very dedicated (or older) one to name a few of their teammates at Santos or Napoli...

A Top Player needs to play for a Top Club in order to truly become "Top". Otherwise he'll be just another big fish in a small pond.

3 minuti fa, Lucas_26_7 ha scritto:

And of course United are a bigger club than Spurs, but in terms of the past few seasons Spurs have challenged for titles regularly and United haven't, simple as that. This year United have probably been better, but lets be honest neither are challenging for the title as it is a City processio

The thing is Spurs are having their best run in decades, which is marginally better than United's WORST...

Neither will challenge City this year, but United has much more potential to bounce back and mount a challenge, while Spurs are a couple of outgoing transfers (or injuries) away from being back to midtable anonymity

[Lucas_26_7]

25 minutes ago, RBKalle said:

It's not an individual sport like, say, tennis, but the single player can still be more important than the team.

That's why the average fan still knows about Pelé and Maradona, but you'll need to find a very dedicated (or older) one to name a few of their teammates at Santos or Napoli...

A Top Player needs to play for a Top Club in order to truly become "Top". Otherwise he'll be just another big fish in a small pond.

The thing is Spurs are having their best run in decades, which is marginally better than United's WORST...

Neither will challenge City this year, but United has much more potential to bounce back and mount a challenge, while Spurs are a couple of outgoing transfers (or injuries) away from being back to midtable anonymity

I'm sorry, but the team IS more important than any individual. This is why people fill seats to watch THEIR team, players come and go, but the shirt they're wearing is what is important. The average person also knows about the biggest teams in the world such as Barcelona and Real Madrid, but they won't know all of their players or what position they all are because the player is never bigger than the club. Lionel Messi is probably the best footballer of all time, and has created a legacy where he is bigger than pretty much any club, but only the greatest of all time do that. If a player needs to play for a top club, then is Pele not one of the best of all time because he only played for Santos? If a player's talent was measured by title won, are John O'shea or Anderson a Premier League greats? Is Jeffrey Schlupp better than Danny Rose because he won a league title? No, they aren't. And if you think Spurs are worse place than United for the next few years, than sure that is your opinion but I disagree. Pochettino is one of the best managers in the world and Mourinho has a reputation for only lasting 3 years at a club. Spurs have a young squad which is only getting better as time goes on. They are close in ability so I don't understand by how Kane moving to a team of a similar ability he becomes a top player. He is a top player because he has outscored literally every player on the planet this year while playing in the hardest league in the world, if anything that is more impressive that he is doing it for Spurs rather than Real Madrid. It's not like he is playing for Lincoln City, Spurs are probably in the top 15-20 best clubs in the world.

[s1111]

17 hours ago, mchbitil said:

His PA is 175, so nowhere to grow.

It's 177, so he has 9 points to grow into which is reasonable for a 24 year old.

There are only 5 players at the start of the game with more than 179 CA, two of the best players of all time, one of the best goalkeepers of all time, the most expensive player of all time (and Luis Suarez). I've always liked him and knew after that first 20 goal season that he was going be good but Kane is not on that level.

[RBKalle]

33 minuti fa, Lucas_26_7 ha scritto:

I'm sorry, but the team IS more important than any individual. This is why people fill seats to watch THEIR team, players come and go, but the shirt they're wearing is what is important.

The shirt is important, but who wears it is important too.

That's why successful clubs with "no tradition" have more fans and supporters than historically important sides that haven't done a thing in a century.

33 minuti fa, Lucas_26_7 ha scritto:

 If a player needs to play for a top club, then is Pele not one of the best of all time because he only played for Santos?

Different times, but let's just say that Pelé's scoring record is disputed for very valid reasons. He was amazing with Brazil in the World Cup, but at club level, the quality of his opponents in Brazil didn't make his legacy any favour.

 

33 minuti fa, Lucas_26_7 ha scritto:

If a player's talent was measured by title won, are John O'shea or Anderson a Premier League greats? Is Jeffrey Schlupp better than Danny Rose because he won a league title? No, they aren't.

I've never said they are...

I simply stated the obvious: an alleged Top Player can't prove his full worth if he's not playing at the highest possible level.

Also, you're proving my point about individuals being as important as the team. Milan's GK Giovanni Galli won every major trophy, but nobody'd consider him the best Italian keeper of his generation, probably not even Top3. So we judge players based on how much they brought to the table for their team AND in the bigger picture.

If the Team is the ultimate entity in football, we'd not care about WHO was part of a winning team...

 

33 minuti fa, Lucas_26_7 ha scritto:

And if you think Spurs are worse place than United for the next few years, than sure that is your opinion but I disagree. Pochettino is one of the best managers in the world and Mourinho has a reputation for only lasting 3 years at a club. Spurs have a young squad which is only getting better as time goes on. They are close in ability so I don't understand by how Kane moving to a team of a similar ability he becomes a top player. He is a top player because he has outscored literally every player on the planet this year while playing in the hardest league in the world, if anything that is more impressive that he is doing it for Spurs rather than Real Madrid. It's not like he is playing for Lincoln City, Spurs are probably in the top 15-20 best clubs in the world.

 

Pressure, expectations and patience are key factors. Spurs aren't Lincoln City, but a 4th place would still be regarded as a good finish. At United, a couple of such seasons would be, and have been indeed, perceived as disappointments.

As said: Spurs are enjoying a bit of a Golden Age, courtesy of a few hot prospect turned great, but I don't think they have enough potential to become actual and consistent title contenders. United, even in relatively crappy seasons, have been able to attract top players and are still a bigger household name.

[tacticsdude]

2 hours ago, RBKalle said:

It makes sense for the neutrals (and the media) to want Kane move away from a club that, at the moment, is still not ready to become a serious title challenger, and will likely never be one.

I don't know about that. Spurs have looked Madrid's equal quite easily this year. I think the club is ambitious and has top talent now. If things stay the course I think in a year or two Spurs might be a fixture of the CL semi finals.

And on the other point, IMO the team is far, far more important than the individual. Look at Atletico Madrid and tell me their success in recent years is not the result of a team deciding to work together and leave it all on the pitch. You could sell their top 2 or 3 stars (as they have: Turan, Costa) and they would not drop at all. And BTW, that's exactly what Spurs looks like to me now but even better, with young top players like Kane and Alli playing their hearts out with so much of their careers to look forward to, and a young manager that looks every bit one of the top managers in the game today.

[Robioto]

On 28/12/2017 at 10:57, Smurf said:

I know this won't go down well but... He has never won a trophy - not the league or anything else. He is basically open to develop one of two ways - a great player or an average player. It's unknown if he will continue his scoring streaks IRL.

Is he represented accurately in the game - I think so. 

Spurs are not a top club in the World of football, so his development maybe stiffled at a club with a low rep in both the game and IRL.

This isn't the first or even the second post I've read of yours that points to your limited knowledge of real world football. Stick to Football Manager advice.

[Lucas_26_7]

1 hour ago, RBKalle said:

The shirt is important, but who wears it is important too.

That's why successful clubs with "no tradition" have more fans and supporters than historically important sides that haven't done a thing in a century.

Different times, but let's just say that Pelé's scoring record is disputed for very valid reasons. He was amazing with Brazil in the World Cup, but at club level, the quality of his opponents in Brazil didn't make his legacy any favour.

 

I've never said they are...

I simply stated the obvious: an alleged Top Player can't prove his full worth if he's not playing at the highest possible level.

Also, you're proving my point about individuals being as important as the team. Milan's GK Giovanni Galli won every major trophy, but nobody'd consider him the best Italian keeper of his generation, probably not even Top3. So we judge players based on how much they brought to the table for their team AND in the bigger picture.

If the Team is the ultimate entity in football, we'd not care about WHO was part of a winning team...

 

 

Pressure, expectations and patience are key factors. Spurs aren't Lincoln City, but a 4th place would still be regarded as a good finish. At United, a couple of such seasons would be, and have been indeed, perceived as disappointments.

As said: Spurs are enjoying a bit of a Golden Age, courtesy of a few hot prospect turned great, but I don't think they have enough potential to become actual and consistent title contenders. United, even in relatively crappy seasons, have been able to attract top players and are still a bigger household name.

Well we don't care about who is part about of a winning team as much as what team it is. The World Cup and the Champions League are the two biggest prizes in football, not the Balon D'or.

And with the line 'top player can't prove his full worth if he's not playing at the highest level', Kane is at the highest level. He is playing in the Champions League and scored 5 in 6 in the Group stage, on track to be the top goalscorer of the Prem for a third straight year, there isn't a higher level. There are higher clubs sure but not a higher level.

Re Spurs: 4th place wouldn't be regarded as a good finish for us nowadays, 2nd or 3rd is probably where we should be finishing, I would be disappointed with 4th and Pochettino even said so  in a recent press conference.

 

[Spurs08]

1 minute ago, Lucas_26_7 said:

Well we don't care about who is part about of a winning team as much as what team it is. The World Cup and the Champions League are the two biggest prizes in football, not the Balon D'or.

And with the line 'top player can't prove his full worth if he's not playing at the highest level', Kane is at the highest level. He is playing in the Champions League and scored 5 in 6 in the Group stage, on track to be the top goalscorer of the Prem for a third straight year, there isn't a higher level. There are higher clubs sure but not a higher level.

Re Spurs: 4th place wouldn't be regarded as a good finish for us nowadays, 2nd or 3rd is probably where we should be finishing, I would be disappointed with 4th and Pochettino even said so  in a recent press conference.

 

Normally I'd agree but 4th this year without a home ground while also competing in the CL would be a very good achievement. 

[Lucas_26_7]

Just now, Spurs08 said:

Normally I'd agree but 4th this year without a home ground while also competing in the CL would be a very good achievement. 

It'd be on par IMO, but I personally wouldn't regard it as a 'good finish' as I feel we are better than Arsenal, Liverpool and United. Probably Chelsea too when we are at our best but we have been a bit patchy this season.

[Smurf]

His current stats capture him perfectly. 

I appreciate the backup and the debate. 

 

You can compare him to Shearer, and Fowler, and McManamin, and Owen, etc. but only one of them stayed in the prem. 

Maybe it is best he stays at Spurs. However, I still think that Vardy should have went to Arsenal. I fear the same fate for Kane, Europa leauge or no European football at all. 

Kane's attributes spot on - PA is still world class. And finishing, positioning, work rate etc. spot on - not much to complain about.

 

The fact the he's English I think is being made a big deal. 

He's a great striker for a team that finishes outside the top 4. 

 

Why not go abroad? Almost 100% of the England team play football in England. And where has that got them??? Spain their players all over the world, France, Germany, Italy, etc. all have their players in leagues all over the world. 

This is the prime reason England don't do well internationally, the English players need to go abroad and prove themselves on the World stage. 

 

 

[Tiger666]

11 minutes ago, Smurf said:

Why not go abroad? Almost 100% of the England team play football in England. And where has that got them??? Spain their players all over the world, France, Germany, Italy, etc. all have their players in leagues all over the world. 

This is the prime reason England don't do well internationally, the English players need to go abroad and prove themselves on the World stage. 

Hasn't England youth won just about everything in the past 12 months?

[JordanMilly]

47 minutes ago, Tiger666 said:

Hasn't England youth won just about everything in the past 12 months?

Aye, Liverpool's youth especially seems to be brilliant this season, especially in youth international football.

[Ant26587]

He's been either the top or second top scorer in the premiership every game I've played. Occasionally gets the golden boot, so I'd say he's perfectly representative.

[Dingusen]

I do agree that his Finnishing attribute should be 20, as should his composure. However, appart from that we are talking about a player that is quite limited compared to Messi, ronaldo, Neymar: Kane will never be that kind of player so while his attributes could have been bumbed in the above mentioned areas, others could just as well been nerfed. IMO his CA/PA, attribute spread and general discription is almost spot on. If he were to receive a bumb in the comming update I would not agree.

[Chief Scout]

I think Kane's attributes are accurate. But more important is the system that surrounds that player.

For example, if you put a tactics with 5 defenders, 4 defensive midfielders and Kane up front all alone, he may as well have all attributes of 20 but the system will not allow him to play.

Second example in my Dortmund save would be Andre Schürrle. His attributes ar not excellent but in the system he playes like crazy. In 17 appearances he scored 21 goals and made 16 assists, with average rating of 8.54 (or 9.10 in the last 5 games).

In FM 17 I had problems with my Arsenal save as I couldn't fit Sanchez in my system. He has excellent attributes but just couldn't score regularly and had poor ratings.

[Atarin]

10 hours ago, Smurf said:

His current stats capture him perfectly. 

I appreciate the backup and the debate. 

 

You can compare him to Shearer, and Fowler, and McManamin, and Owen, etc. but only one of them stayed in the prem. 

Maybe it is best he stays at Spurs. However, I still think that Vardy should have went to Arsenal. I fear the same fate for Kane, Europa leauge or no European football at all. 

Kane's attributes spot on - PA is still world class. And finishing, positioning, work rate etc. spot on - not much to complain about.

 

The fact the he's English I think is being made a big deal. 

He's a great striker for a team that finishes outside the top 4. 

 

Why not go abroad? Almost 100% of the England team play football in England. And where has that got them??? Spain their players all over the world, France, Germany, Italy, etc. all have their players in leagues all over the world. 

This is the prime reason England don't do well internationally, the English players need to go abroad and prove themselves on the World stage. 

 

 

 

Where are you getting this rubbish from?

Why is Kane going to be playing Europa League? Spurs may be sat in 6th currently but they have two games in hand on Liverpool in 4th. Win both of those (against lowly Swansea & West Ham) and Spurs will be in 5th and just 1 point behind Liverpool with the majority of the second half of the season to go (which as the last few seasons has proved is when Spurs really start to motor).

Kane's Englishness has got nothing to do with it. Anyone that had scored the amount of goals he has over the last three seasons, with the amount of hatricks.etc in the most competitive and quality packed league in European football would be described as an incredible striker. 

As for Englishmen playing abroad, that's a product of the financial rewards available in England. This is where the big money is. Even useless players get mega bucks here. Why would a Harry Kane go to Spain, other than for Madrid or Barca? Where would he get the exposure, sponsorships, media attention and competition that he gets here? he's not going to go to Italy is he? Terrible league. He's not going to France. He's not going to Portugal. He's not going to go to Germany for anyone other than Bayern who probably couldn't afford him and wouldn't pay it if they could. Spurs will never sell Kane to a rival in England. They no longer have to.

England players haven't always stayed in England. I remember the 1990 England squad where you had Gary Stevens, Terry Butcher, Chris Woods and Trevor Steven all playing for Rangers (who were a big deal in Europe at the time). Chris Waddle playing for Merseilles and Gary Lineker having just signed for Spurs from Barca.

Then you had the 1996 Euro squad with Paul Ince at Inter, Gazza who had signed for Rangers after a spell with Lazio, David Platt who had recently signed for Arsenal from Sampdoria, Steve McManaman was a couple of years away from leaving Liverpool for Real. Les Ferdinand had a spell in Turkey.

The point is that neither side won anything. Yes both reached semi-finals and only narrowly went out to Germany both times on penalties, but by your black and white criteria they were still a bunch of also rans.

As someone else mention English youngsters are increasingly leaving home and going abroad with Germany a particular destination. German clubs recognise the quality we're producing whilst also recognising that because of the money in the league and the ability to buy ready made players, our own youngsters are not being given opportunities.

 

So, in a nutshell. You're wrong on just about all of what you said.

[Mons]

11 hours ago, Smurf said:

His current stats capture him perfectly. 

I appreciate the backup and the debate. 

 

You can compare him to Shearer, and Fowler, and McManamin, and Owen, etc. but only one of them stayed in the prem. 

Maybe it is best he stays at Spurs. However, I still think that Vardy should have went to Arsenal. I fear the same fate for Kane, Europa leauge or no European football at all. 

Kane's attributes spot on - PA is still world class. And finishing, positioning, work rate etc. spot on - not much to complain about.

 

The fact the he's English I think is being made a big deal. 

He's a great striker for a team that finishes outside the top 4. 

 

Why not go abroad? Almost 100% of the England team play football in England. And where has that got them??? Spain their players all over the world, France, Germany, Italy, etc. all have their players in leagues all over the world. 

This is the prime reason England don't do well internationally, the English players need to go abroad and prove themselves on the World stage. 

 

 

I'm a Liverpool supporter but this is absolute balderdash. He's scored 93 Premier League goals in 3 and a half seasons. Those are the statistics of a great striker plain and simple, and not just of a great striker for a team that finishes outside the top 4. For sheer consistency, he's one of the top 3-5 strikers in the world, and only a fool would try to argue otherwise, or somebody on the wind-up...

[Atarin]

Can we also just address this "finishing outside the top four" stuff, as well. Out of the last 8 seasons Spurs have finished in the top four, four times. That's 50%.  In the last two seasons (during which time Kane has come to the fore) Spurs have finished 2nd and 3rd.

So...yeah.