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Naor5563

Long and mid range shots in the new ME. Let's talk about it.

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By 'from range' what do you mean ?

From whoscored last year messi scored 23% of his goals from outside the box...that doesn't necessarily constitute 'from range'

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Pretty interesting graphic from 2012 (all Messi goals that calendar year). Seeing this, that would be an amazing feature request... that same graphic to be displayed in each player's profile. So much in FM you rely on "gut feeling" and "perceptions", unless you would go through every match back to back to count / note a few things down yourself. Might even help development...

ewq4Y.jpg

ronaldo-gif.gif?resize=692%2C485


Opta collect this in more detail, as SI are connected to  STATS, they would hopefully access such research also for future releases / long-term ME development. I think you will find no research in the world that suggests that players significantly differ in their conversion of specific scenarios though. E.g. if the average guy converts in between 20-30 attempts from far outside the box, then the top guy betters that perhaps by a few decisive percent, but not be in an altogether different league. What's more, over the short to mid-term, the average guy can top the top guy, which is the impact of small sample sizes. e.g. if Messi's conversion over his career are above average, and they are, that tells more than somebody over the span of two seasons outconverting him. And if that "average" guy betters averages by huge margins, the numbers will go down long-term anyway guaranteed, or he's an alien. Top competitive sports is settled in margins, anything else is a fundamentally misunderstanding of how it works. Clubs spend millions in attempts to go a few extra percentages, and in real football, more often fail. There's naturally not only conversions, but also the shot accuracy as argued in this thread (amount of shots off-target, wildly or mildly), which should be researched individually. No less as superior technique may show here in particular.

Some stuff should be reasonably difficult to research in that regard, as realistically, real "skill" will only show over 100s repeats of an event (that sample size thing). This goes for events with finite successful outcomes in particular. Just an added goal or two completely warps it all (thinking of free kicks in particular). There's likely not a single player in professional/competitive football in particular who wouldn't be able to at all hit a ball  -- imagine if such a competitive footballer was to take free kicks for a season. It may not be the best guy at set pieces, but have a decent enough shot in the team. It's well documented that Ronaldo can / and did go a fully year without hitting anything but Lahm. Hardly outrageous to suggest that "makeshift" taker may score a goal every now and then, outconverting Ronaldo by 300% -- in the individual season. If you think that's wild, then you have a weird idea about competitive sports, imo. That FM will probably always be a tad limiting when it comes to individual finishing skill is naturally another limitation. Basically, outside of shooting decisions affected by PPMs, and possibly a bit by stuff like the "flair attribute" influencing adventurous decisions, this is more or less about success rates influenced by all that maths/numbers underneath.

That aside, I'd personally urge SI to not only look at their soak test data, but also how teams are actually being managed, in particular by AI...edit: Also a great site also showing how streaky this can be. This season Messi has scored zero from range so far (league anyway). That shouldn't be such a huge surprise. Those shots are typically "low probability attempts" in analysis for reason. Ronaldo this term is the Super Special One either way. :D

https://understat.com/player/2097
https://understat.com/player/2371

 

 

Edited by Svenc

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Updates if SEGA is aware of this and what's it doing about it or if they are reading this topic.

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22 minutes ago, Lexis said:

Updates if SEGA is aware of this and what's it doing about it or if they are reading this topic.

As previously explained - if there are issues, please report it with PKMs. SI can then review the report and make changes if necessary.

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Obviously not a issue otherwise, regardless of X players reporting it. Why would SEGA simulate a one year save game and check statistics indeed....or otherwise play their own game lol.

Edited by Lexis

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17 minutes ago, Lexis said:

Obviously not a issue otherwise, regardless of X players reporting it. Why would SEGA simulate a one year save game and check statistics indeed....or otherwise play their own game lol.

It's not Sega, it's SI. And they do test themselves too.

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On 01/04/2018 at 12:50, HUNT3R said:

Any updates on what?

A week after and it's still bothering me. Still high amount of long shots despite my tactic clearly ask not to. Player still go for shooting first even if he has a clear pass, even when he asked to dribble less, hold up ball, work ball into box, look for overlap and on slow tempo ( and have no opposite PPM ).

I want to hear SI developers opinion regarding the whole thread, about the impossible angles, the direct of the long shots ( still corner flag more likely to be hitted , still clear long shots from edge of area will go miles away etc etc) .

And still one path of playing ( middle, shot from distance etc etc ) is fully disable for me since high class players can't hit the target like in RL.

 

 

Edited by Naor5563

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10 minutes ago, Naor5563 said:

A week after and it's still bothering me. Still high amount of long shots despite my tactic clearly ask not to. Player still go for shooting first even if he has a clear pass, even when he asked to dribble less, hold up ball, work ball into box, look for overlap and on slow tempo ( and have no opposite PPM ).

I want to hear SI developers opinion regarding the whole thread, about the impossible angles, the direct of the long shots ( still corner flag more likely to be hitted , still clear long shots from edge of area will go miles away etc etc) .

And still one path of playing ( middle, shot from distance etc etc ) is fully disable for me since high class players can't hit the target like in RL.

 

 

If you have clear instances of players shooting when there are better options WITHIN your instructions and the player shouldn't be making poor or rash decisions (keeping in mind attributes and his body language) then it would be better to report those instances with PKMs. You'll directly get the SI testers to look into your reports and at best, have a hand in improving the game we all love and at worst, you'll get an explanation of why the player is shooting.

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I will try to submit some pkm's myself, as I believe this is a real issue since the 18.2 update. And I read one thing here some days ago, I fully agree. Would be very interesting (and maybe difficult to implement by SI) that we could make more detailed individual changes during games if we spot something we don't like. And the example is, if I see a player taking three long shots close to the corner flag, having good passing options, I should be able to tell him, don't take any more shots unless you are within a range of 5 mts to the goal and the net is open.

A real life manager can say to a specific player. I don´t want you to shoot, never! And unless he is Ronaldo or Messi, or wants to be substituted, he will obey.

Edited by shadster

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I think @El Payaso had uploaded a pkm with two decisions that clearly may look adressing. There was basically a shot taken from like 50, 60 yards going over the sideline. However, not everything I don't like will be a bug (same as not everything a real manager doesn't like about his side kicking it about can be explained that way... sadly for his). This is also perfectly highlighted in a more recent report. However, it also highlights that the added clue is oft in the match commentary, as purely on a visual level, things are a tad limited. As argued, you won't ever see a player losing balance much when running at pace and then firing his blast. Or much body contact when pushed leading to similar. FM clearly considers if a players is under pressure (defenders near), and also the pace of play. That was acknowledged some by the coders years and years ago already. However, how it displays it is another matter. In-game, this one would have looked as if Heskey was running at goal, and then just taking a dip that goes wayward. Feature request: Motion capturing animation of Miles falling on his ass recorded, please.
 



IIRC around FM2013ish there was an issue with long shots where it was acknowledged that regardless of tactics, to a degree the ME inherent support movement around the ball carrier was at fault, leading to added long shots. However anybody completely dismissing input (including AI) is not worth listening to imo. It may not be something obviously stupid, no less as the tactical UI can be still fairly opaque on a couple times (or the influence of player traits underrated). However, traits influence. Previously even the amount of woodword hits (places shots PPM).

Connected to this though, it might be worth if some of the few gurus may chime in, though their hands may be partly tied if involved in testing. It seems @Rashidi more recent pretty enjoys his sides, at least overall.

Edited by Svenc

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1 hour ago, Svenc said:

I think @El Payaso had uploaded a pkm with two decisions that clearly may look adressing.

From what I've seen, players are a little too cautious to play balls through the middle. This creates problems, because now players will look to play somewhere else rather and if there aren't options, they're going to shoot. Examples like that (hesitant to play balls through the centre and instead shooting) would be especially welcome.

I've also seen a report regarding poor long shots. It turned out to be that the players in most of the examples were shooting with their weaker foot, so might be worth checking a) if long shots with the weaker foot (how weak is also important) are too common and b) if the misses are too far wide to be deemed realistic.

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Guest El Payaso
2 hours ago, Svenc said:

I think @El Payaso had uploaded a pkm with two decisions that clearly may look adressing.

But you forget that my threads don't get reviewed. I actually have couple of worse examples from Wilfried Bony even though that shot from Oussama was a beauty. :D Bony managed to do the same inside the penalty area after he had made is way through the defenders. There seems to be an issue that players tend to shoot directly to the direction that they are running instead of aiming it to the goal. Like for example an IF cutting in and releasing too quickly and hitting it straight out the sideline.

https://www.premierleague.com/stats/top/clubs/att_obox_goal

Based on this long shots are an important way to score goals as Manchester teams have scored 10 and 9 from them and there are lot of clubs close to that. I would say the same based on my own experience: when looking at for example Match of the Day there are always goals from long range in Premier league. 

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22 minutes ago, El Payaso said:

But you forget that my threads don't get reviewed. I actually have couple of worse examples from Wilfried Bony even though that shot from Oussama was a beauty. :D Bony managed to do the same inside the penalty area after he had made is way through the defenders. There seems to be an issue that players tend to shoot directly to the direction that they are running instead of aiming it to the goal. Like for example an IF cutting in and releasing too quickly and hitting it straight out the sideline.

https://www.premierleague.com/stats/top/clubs/att_obox_goal

Based on this long shots are an important way to score goals as Manchester teams have scored 10 and 9 from them and there are lot of clubs close to that. I would say the same based on my own experience: when looking at for example Match of the Day there are always goals from long range in Premier league. 

Agree, in the game it seems impossible some time, nit matter if the player marked or not.

Player shoots bad even from inside the penalty area. I basically think that shots in the game overall are bad. Player with medium technique, which plays in the top 10th leagues in europe will shoot a dangerous shots if he is unmarked 25 meters from the goal ( or less ).

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, HUNT3R said:

From what I've seen, players are a little too cautious to play balls through the middle. This creates problems, because now players will look to play somewhere else rather and if there aren't options, they're going to shoot. Examples like that (hesitant to play balls through the centre and instead shooting) would be especially welcome.

Explains a few. In Rashidi's latest video he's basically scored the same goal twice, central through ball unleashing one of his forwards, which similar to his two ranged shots in the other vid from a few days ago, may be naturally coincidence. There's two sides of this coin anyways. Few players do this from experience, but on a prior release I personally used to range how much harder (than on FM 2012) it really became to do the opposite. Which is forcing sides to long shots. Partly connected to AI tactics, partly connected to there being fewer shots in general (matches being shorter in those releases), partly due to attacking movement -- it was really rather easy on FM 2012 to simply drop deep, stand off, and make even superior teams struggling to find any other options.

I had enjoyed back to back Cup upsets that way, and survived a CL group with Rosenborg containing Real, Milan and Lyon (who at that time where CL semis candidates on the occasion as some may remember). I personally hugely enjoyed that, though it was perhaps a tad unrealistic.


7AImcQe.jpg

Dvx4AXZ.jpg

However, there is that part. This is usually only possible if a side completely packs it, and it may be you. And if the attacking AI on its end can still make decisions like that... no words.  As said though, too bad that the game doesn't deal in graphics like that (though it technically could, as it records shots at least for individual matches), so we could easier compare (and the developers likewise). Naturally would take a few additional ressources/memory. What it does record though is how many ranged goals generally teams score, as it is displayed in each team's report upon having scouted them, at least. I admit I'm a getting panaroid on this, as too much that could be partially(!) fixed by a few more clever and somewhat realistic (AI) tactics may be entirelly thrown at the game. Something like that is begging for ranged attempts and poorer ones at that due to congesting all kinds of space. However, if those were to be fixed, AI may also be a bit harder to beat... And it's nothing entirelly new.

Point being, that's a far cry from Rashidi's here, who lets his side actually pick and pass opposition appart before the guy taking the shot from range can appear into actually space (19:00ish minutes mark, if the linking to one of the goals doesn't work). Basically, for all the promotion gigs about AI plotting your downfall, the state of AI management is at a point where it on occasion doesn't even respect common sense, let alone any kind of realistic "coaching" at any level of competitive football anywhere, and whilst there may be a good reason for it perhaps -- that's one part of the truth on the AI's end for sure.

 

Edited by Svenc

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Uploaded a bunch of pkm's.. the worse than can happen is to be ignored or they say to me how much I suck at making tactics. Hope that helps to clarify things!

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3 hours ago, shadster said:

Uploaded a bunch of pkm's.. the worse than can happen is to be ignored or they say to me how much I suck at making tactics. Hope that helps to clarify things!


Ideally you would write a short report on each match, marking the time the shots happen you want to see reviewed. From experience that has a bigger chance of getting reviewed, as the QA staff not only a) knows what to look for ... but b) when to look for it. As for tactics, they wouldn't do any such, however they may look what tactical factors may contribute. It's easy to predict for a start that the match may have one team sitting deep, for a start. I think the oft expressed assumption that Barcelona taking 11 long shots as such is flawed anyway. Even Celtic could force them to that, not one, not twice, they did it a couple times back then. And they also didn't concede their goals that way in these here, anyway (--> Chalkboard). We also have to assume that Barcelona were tactically rather well prepared, unlike the AI shenanigans posted by me above, completely playing into the hands of such teams. :D

https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/667812/Live/Europe-UEFA-Champions-League-2012-2013-Barcelona-Celtic
https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/667820/Live/Europe-UEFA-Champions-League-2012-2013-Celtic-Barcelona

But that's coming from someone who enjoys keeping things tight on his end myself, naturally. In the end, outside of fixing bugs and decisions, this will always remain a balance, if you ask me. And the core question of it is: How much does simply superior player quality unlock such a defense, and how regularly does it do such? However, an increase in long shots as such is a fairly common sense "symptom" of teams packing it tight -- and the attacking team struggling to find easy space on each attack thus. I can almost 100% guarantee that if SI coded defending to be tighter, you'd see an increase here all itself, depending on how the attacking sides "contribute" to it. Such has happened in the past, and there's definitely a BIG TIME overlap between player frustration and how hard/easy it is to score on each release respectively. Personally I tended to report the vice versa, such as on FM 2015, where throwing every player forward prior to the spring patch meant your worst forwards in the league completely smashed it up, but, too, that's me! :D

Edited by Svenc

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If they're not gonna want to look into this and potenially improve this ascept of ME, they should add an option to forbid a player from takikg shouts outside the box. I am the manager and if the players shoot when specifically told NOT to, I am going to have to force my hand. 

 

But of course this is just a problem with our tactic and players, not the ME.

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1 hour ago, TheMagician16 said:

But of course this is just a problem with our tactic and players, not the ME.

 Often times it's a bit of both -- this includes the opposition's tactics too, which are coded by SI.

Anybody either arguing:
- ME is fine, must be tactics 100%
or
- Tactics are fine, must be 100% ME

May be of finite use in this. The aforementioned kind of AI management would see some increase in ranged attempts for all the "right" reasons all itself on any release in such matches, though.

Edited by Svenc

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I kind of figured it out now , how to reduce the Long Shots .. I let them play more disciplined and all the players with shoot less often (of course) .  For me now , it is how @Svenc says , a mix of both . ME and Tactics . But imo there is definitely an Issue with where the long Shots are going to ... Shots from 15-20 Meters going to the Corner Flag , that is what bothers me a lot. When the Opponent parks the Bus . It helps to play with a faster Tempo to reduce the amount of Long Shots .  

 

Here an Example with my Barcelona Team and my "Valverde Tactic 4-4-2"

Won this Game 5-0 and had "only" 7 Long Shots ... i would say 3 of those weren't Long Shots but well ...

1.png

here the Shots (Same Match which i have completely dominated)  and one really strange one from Sevilla .. Those kind of Shots are happening quite often imo.

2.png

 

Imo SI should take care of where the Shots going to rather than the amount !? I really thought there is an Issue with the Amount, but i came to the conclusion that it can be fixed with instructions.  I would like to have a Button which Says "No Shots from outside the Box" tho :D

 

 

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1 hour ago, haffaz77 said:

I kind of figured it out now , how to reduce the Long Shots .. I let them play more disciplined and all the players with shoot less often (of course) .  For me now , it is how @Svenc says , a mix of both . ME and Tactics . But imo there is definitely an Issue with where the long Shots are going to ... Shots from 15-20 Meters going to the Corner Flag , that is what bothers me a lot. When the Opponent parks the Bus . It helps to play with a faster Tempo to reduce the amount of Long Shots .  

 

Here an Example with my Barcelona Team and my "Valverde Tactic 4-4-2"

Won this Game 5-0 and had "only" 7 Long Shots ... i would say 3 of those weren't Long Shots but well ...

1.png

here the Shots (Same Match which i have completely dominated)  and one really strange one from Sevilla .. Those kind of Shots are happening quite often imo.

2.png

 

Imo SI should take care of where the Shots going to rather than the amount !? I really thought there is an Issue with the Amount, but i came to the conclusion that it can be fixed with instructions.  I would like to have a Button which Says "No Shots from outside the Box" tho :D

 

 

You do right it's has a lot to do with our tactics. 

But still : A. What about AI shooting a lot of long shots from distance which been completely useless? ( what can we do now? ) B. What about the fact you can only win games if you'll shoot from close ranges (5-12 meters, otherwise world class players  shoot like lower league players )  because the other option completely useless? C. What about the fact that because of the high amount of shots being completely off target it turns the game to unenjoyable due to the fact it's impossible to watch the highlights on extended mode and see a lot of rubbish long shots going to the corner flag.

We can still win games . It's possible to succeed but we lose the joy along the way. I can allmost fully predict the way I will score or concede a goal. It's not so interesting when the game is highly predictable.

Edited by Naor5563

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Guest El Payaso
4 hours ago, Naor5563 said:

We can still win games . It's possible to succeed but we lose the joy along the way. I can almost fully predict the way I will score or concede a goal. It's not so interesting when the game is highly predictable.

Exactly this. SI should try to balance this. What I actually liked in the earlier builds of the ME this year was that for example crossing didn't seem to be like a "certain way" to create chances and score goals. Now that has changed and it's in the same levels. While in every version for example long shots or direct free kicks or a deep lying playmaker providing long balls to a striker are not certain ways to create chances and score. It's highly repetitive every year and doesn't seem to have much to do with players' attributes or style of plays. In real life for example Crystal Palace with fast wide players and Benteke up front have only scored 2 goals in Premier league through headers so far so even from this you can read between the lines that even with the right type of players crosses are not necessarily an effective way to score. Compare this to those top clubs in terms of goals from outside the penalty area: many teams with 10, 9 and 8 goals so far this season. So basically: for some teams long shots can be more effective way to score goals than for example crossing and for some teams long range through balls can be more effective way to score than crosses. The game needs lot more variation in this, not "every team scoring 40% of their goals from crosses".

When I take a look in my save on stats I notice that both on goals scored and assists the top 20 is filled with wide players, AMs and strikers while central midfielders are not represented there at all and this with City, Chelsea and United having lots of MCs that have the quality to assist and score regularly from deeper positions. And here is the list IRL:

https://www.premierleague.com/stats/top/players/goal_assist?se=79

Six players in top 11 are MCs when you look at assists and not a single striker in this list. 

https://www.premierleague.com/stats/top/players/goals

This also shows that a regular goalscorer is hard to find in real life while on current FM so many even mediocre teams have a striker scoring more than 0,50 goals per game and players like Benteke, Defoe and even Iheanacho going with more than 1 goal per game. This for me tells that the engine is highly repetitive: goals and assists (and chances created) falling to same positions' players while IRL there is a lot bigger variation.

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I'm uploading here only files from matches than I won. And opened the thread on bugs forum, so they can't say I'm only complaining but don't provide pkm. 

As can seen on the files I uploaded, I won all of that matches, and my Segundo Volante or Roaming playmaker, depending on game played, takes a lot of long shots. One of them, Arthur, doesn't have de PPM to shoot frequently. And what makes me think that's an issue, is that this only started after update. And to reduce the long shots, I started to play most of games on Standard instead of Control. But my team takes a lot more long shots then before the update on Control. All this games were played with work ball into box and shoot less on mildfield players. If is not a issue, why started after the update? My players didn't change that much, tactic is the same..

Screenshot 2018-01-06 19.59.37.png

Screenshot 2018-01-06 20.01.51.png

Screenshot 2018-01-06 20.05.46.png

Edited by shadster

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14 minutes ago, shadster said:

I'm uploading here only files from matches than I won. And opened the thread on bugs forum, so they can't say I'm only complaining but don't provide pkm. 

As can seen on the files I uploaded, I won all of that matches, and my Segundo Volante or Roaming playmaker, depending on game played, takes a lot of long shots. One of them, Arthur, doesn't have de PPM to shoot frequently. And what makes me think that's an issue, is that this only started after update. And to reduce the long shots, I started to play most of games on Standard instead of Control. But my team takes a lot more long shots then before the update on Control. All this games were played with work ball into box and shoot less on mildfield players. If is not a issue, why started after the update? My players didn't change that much, tactic is the same..

Screenshot 2018-01-06 19.59.37.png

Screenshot 2018-01-06 20.01.51.png

Screenshot 2018-01-06 20.05.46.png

Agree, and have full of examples like those as well. And the main problem is those long shots are useless! (The screen shots won't tell that most of these shots who went near the target, are high as hell like volleyball shot ). Don't matter if the player marked or not. Even clear shots are just irrelevant. 

 

Edited by Naor5563

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2 hours ago, El Payaso said:

Exactly this. SI should try to balance this. What I actually liked in the earlier builds of the ME this year was that for example crossing didn't seem to be like a "certain way" to create chances and score goals. Now that has changed and it's in the same levels. While in every version for example long shots or direct free kicks or a deep lying playmaker providing long balls to a striker are not certain ways to create chances and score.

Those aren't and shouldn't be ever ever ever "certain ways" to score as some chances are blatantly better ones wrong footing a defense and some aren't, and player quality won't change that by hugely much. F'r instance, a ball from out wider areas means the shot instantly has to change direction -- no matter what, that's a bigger challenge for any keeper than any shot off a through ball at no angle. Since you#re talking "every version", have you put that to the test? On FM 15/16 I edited every player to have long shots DFK technique 20 and saw a couple sides scoring 12+ direct free kicks -- by Decembre (and the average going up as high as 5 or 6, when from a normal database it was perhaps 2 by the end of the season). You also may never see such stats on any release as it requires setting up a side in such a way that the guys from range would be in space (similar to the above Rashidi vid), and so on. I'm no genius, but I love to experiment, usually.

I've meanwhile contacted a tactical mod as they seem to stay clear of these threads (probably for reason, wwfan for instance was abused in the past even when trying to help). And whilst as usual from these folk, none would argue the ME is without faults, the one I contacted thinks there isn't a huge issues with long shots as such. Similar to the above stupid AI choking all space, it's about creating it. On the AI's end from my side a lot can be fixed by fixing AI. This will have the inevitable effect of them getting a few more robust though.... Another step is setting up AI to actually focus on a certain kind of assist, but that's a long way coming if you ask me. The reason you see more or less the same kind of vanilla AI play isn't merely down to ME (which it is to a degree) -- but also because the AI is vanilla. To me, AI if broken down to its most simple simply goes more and less attacking, that's about it. All depending on the opposition it plays each week -- and how the current scoreline is in that specific match. Certain styles of play, as far as possible, if at all come limited into play.  @Naor5563 yup, completely that kind of shot that needs adressing. :D I think that was recorded by El Payaso too, players oft shooting straight into the direction they run etc. Which looks quite buggy.

This is Rashidi (wasn't the one I contacted) too scoring the same goal twice, actually working the space so that a defensive splitting through ball can at all come to pass. You can't just argue the game wouldn't offer anything to you without delving a bit deeper her yourself (and putting the AI under some scrutiny).
 

 

Edited by Svenc

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This is what annoys me a bit.. it was obvious that SI isn't considering this a issue, the way this was talked some posts above. Like on all foruns, people like me doesn't deserv any credit, and if some of most prestiged players consider that is not a issue, than it is not, period. All times I submit a bug, it is only considered if it is Portuguese Language or Portuguese League related. And I understand that they can't give credit to all reports, and to people like me with few posts, maybe it is normal to be ignored, but this thread should't be underestimated. Even if it was to prove us wrong.

11 minutes ago, Svenc said:



I've meanwhile contacted a tactical mod as they seem to stay clear of these threads (probably for reason, wwfan for instance was abused in the past even when trying to help). And whilst as usual from these folk, none would argue the ME is without faults, the one I contacted thinks there isn't a huge issues with long shots as such. Similar to the above stupid AI choking all space, it's about creating it. On the AI's end from my side a lot can be fixed by fixing AI. This will have the inevitable effect of them getting a few more robust though.... Another step is setting up AI to actually focus on a certain kind of assist, but that's a long way coming if you ask me. The reason you see more or less the same kind of vanilla AI play isn't merely down to ME (which it is to a degree) -- but also because the AI is vanilla. To me, AI if broken down to its most simple simply goes more and less attacking, that's about it. All depending on the opposition it plays each week -- and how the current scoreline is in that specific match.  @Naor5563 yup, completely that kind of shot that needs adressing. :D I think that was recorded by El Payaso too, players oft shooting straight into the direction they run etc. Which looks quite buggy.

 

 

 

Edited by shadster

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15 minutes ago, shadster said:

This is what annoys me a bit.. it was obvious that SI isn't considering this a issue, the way this was talked some posts above.

 


I haven't posted it isn't considered an issue. That was merely personal opinion from an individual person I consider to be "decent" at this game. It is an issue no less as recorded by some of the shots. One of the mods has argued there is issues too. What I'm trying to argue that it has some to do at least a few with the input too -- which goes for AI too, also how readily rigidly defensive it may set up. The reason I'm trying to argue this naturally is because somebody brought AI into play. City managed AI having like 80% off their shots from range. That is a non-argument. as that's going to be influenced by AI tactics for sure in that specific match, and the AI needs improvements alongside to the ME, or else it'S futile. To me in some of its decisions the AI has actually declined from FM13 (imo). Which personally I consider an issue itself, and it has let to bad shots before FM 18 was released. :)

Edited by Svenc

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2 minutes ago, Svenc said:


I haven't posted it isn't considered an issue. It is an issue no less as recorded by some of the shots. One of the mods has argued there is issues too. What I'm trying to argue that it has some to do at least a few with the input too -- which goes for AI too, also how readily rigidly defensive it may set up. The reason I'm trying to argue this naturally is because somebody brought AI into play. City managed AI having like 80% off their shots from range. Well, that's going to be influenced by AI tactics for sure in that specific match, and the AI needs improvements alongside to the ME, or else it'S futile. To me in some areas the AI has actually declined from FM13.

I quoted you, not to say that you don't consider an issue, I know you consider it, and make valuable contributions to understand both the issues and the game.

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Guest El Payaso
46 minutes ago, Svenc said:

Those aren't and shouldn't be ever ever ever "certain ways" to score as some chances are blatantly better ones wrong footing a defense and some aren't, and player quality won't change that by hugely much. F'r instance, a ball from out wider areas means the shot instantly has to change direction -- no matter what, that's a bigger challenge for any keeper than any shot off a through ball at no angle. Since you#re talking "every version", have you put that to the test? On FM 15/16 I edited every player to have long shots DFK technique 20 and saw a couple sides scoring 12+ direct free kicks -- by Decembre (and the average going up as high as 5 or 6, when from a normal database it was perhaps 2 by the end of the season). You also may never see such stats on any release as it requires setting up a side in such a way that the guys from range would be in space (similar to the above Rashidi vid), and so on. I'm no genius, but I love to experiment, usually.
 

Okay let's not say certain but let's say much more simple or much easier. And by that I mean that in my opinion it is much easier to for example score regularly from crosses (no matter what type of players you have) or with a 4-4-2 or other multi-forward system where the more deeper forward is regularly setting up the runner than it is to get for example a MC-position playmaker to create most of your goals or having the midfield runner as the main goalscorer. The AI is being fairly successful on the first ones but fail to do the second ones (getting midfielders providing assists and goals regularly) they are failing completely. 

I haven't played with any top quality teams in this FM either but for me it is so easy to get wide players and a deep lying forward to provide while the more 'creative' midfielders and players with long shooting ability either are performing really badly in the ME  or I am doing some terribly wrong. I do get them into positions where that high vision and passing ability could trigger things or that ability to shoot could pay out. If I would for example pick Chelsea now as my team on FM I bet that I could set for example Willian on the right wing to provide goals from crosses to both Hazard and especially Morata while this in real life is not happening. Setting someone like Azpilicueta and Morata or Cesc and Diego Costa partnership (regular assister from deeper and a goalscorer) would be a much harder task and these actually are scenarios that are happening/happened in real life.

Haven't had any tests but basing my opinions on memory and experiences. There are repeating sequences in the game that repeat year after year after year that have nothing to do with football or tactical selections and I have mentioned those already. Such things as a forwards being too involved and by that often being main creators, players being unmarked at the edge of the penalty area in set pieces and throw-in tiki-takas etc. None of them have nothing to do with real football and you actually cannot influence on those. 

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9 hours ago, El Payaso said:

Haven't had any tests but basing my opinions on memory and experiences. There are repeating sequences in the game that repeat year after year after year that have nothing to do with football or tactical selections and I have mentioned those already. Such things as a forwards being too involved and by that often being main creators, players being unmarked at the edge of the penalty area in set pieces and throw-in tiki-takas etc. None of them have nothing to do with real football and you actually cannot influence on those. 

Yup, there's a difference between that and arguing that on "any release" long shots etc. were useless regardles of player. That's like the guy a few months back making the "fake" argument he had edited all his players to have aggression dirtiness 20, and still he would get the amount of same cards. That guy was actually approved, whilst subsequently setting up a simple editor experiment completely debunked that entire thread approved of (sides with low agg/dirtyness barely being carded, vs vice versa the high agg/dirtyness sides collecting multiple the amount of cards). Which is astounding, as it's oversimplifying things and disregards the run of play to be influenced by tactics... hugely. As I did such experiments before, it didn't surprise me though. If anything, such extreme experiments would yield unrealistic results, as I don't consider a side scoring like up to 16 direct free kicks a season "realistic" (FM 16 experiment or thereabouts). However, as we don't have the number of attempts taken, it's hard to tell.

As argued, it's no much surprise that those who could provide something above "**** doesn't work at all" don't much contribute in general discussion anymore -- sadly. It may be revealing. I hope they're the ones most listened too though -- as they're the ones to look for to bring that AI some up to snuff. The crux of the matter is either way determining what is partly down to input, and what is ME inherent. It is utterly crucial in determining any future direction, both in terms of AI development, as well as ME. Considering those experiments, possibly even research. In particular if the process of researching doesn't cover simulations.

Edited by Svenc

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Guest El Payaso

I'm not saying that long shots or direct free kicks for example have always been ineffective. But that has been the case for the past few versions at least. One problem also is that the players also get (imo) too many good chances to score from long range and from direct free kicks but then the quality is usually just awful. It has gone to this that I am not anymore worried even though I have Kevin de Bruyne or someone taking tons of free kicks or long shots against me as the game has created an immersion that I don't need to be worried any then. And on the other hand all the problems with crossing and set pieces have made me basically hate every goal from them. That is also down to how they are scored: too many of them are just awful scenarios where an attacking player just escapes clearly from the freezing marker instead of actually beating him realistically to the ball. 

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14 hours ago, Naor5563 said:

Agree, and have full of examples like those as well. And the main problem is those long shots are useless! (The screen shots won't tell that most of these shots who went near the target, are high as hell like volleyball shot ). Don't matter if the player marked or not. Even clear shots are just irrelevant. 

 

I had this issue with one of my players playing in the SV role so I checked and he didn't have the long-shot PPM or anything so was at a loss. Swapped my DMs around and the other player does it hardly at all. With the first guy there were almost between 5-10 ridiculous shots per match but once I swapped them the other guy would do it occasionally which leads me to believe it might be decision/vision etc based rather than a PPM or hardcoded thing for the role.

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4 hours ago, El Payaso said:

I'm not saying that long shots or direct free kicks for example have always been ineffective. But that has been the case for the past few versions at least. One problem also is that the players also get (imo) too many good chances to score from long range and from direct free kicks but then the quality is usually just awful. It has gone to this that I am not anymore worried even though I have Kevin de Bruyne or someone taking tons of free kicks or long shots against me as the game has created an immersion that I don't need to be worried any then. And on the other hand all the problems with crossing and set pieces have made me basically hate every goal from them. That is also down to how they are scored: too many of them are just awful scenarios where an attacking player just escapes clearly from the freezing marker instead of actually beating him realistically to the ball. 

That's exactly the root of the problem. Long shots and cut backs play being so useless - so the game kind of 'forcing' us to play flanks football based on crosses (overlaps sometimes and attacking full backs with cross more often and from byline instructions) and at least two strikers in order to find the net.

Every chance to change these kind of tactics and exploiting the middle, more attacking MC's and / or shoot on sight kind of things just low our key chances and turn them into not purposful chances. 

Since it's not working properly and the majority of shots are awful and not threatning as they should be in my opinion, it leaves you only with minimum ways to succeed - which basically almost everything includes hardcore flanks play. Needless to say it's a bit easy to succeed that way and that's effect the fact it's a bit easy to be overachieaver. 

In the long terms, it makes the game boring and predictable.

I truely think the problems raised in this thread are really more than juat "too many long shots". It's effecting a lot of other aspects in the game. It turns strikers and full backs to more valued and more influential as well as wingers ( which I think it's unrealistic because there is no real wingers in the world nowadays - most of flanks players nowadays are inside forwards with opposite leg play, which are not so effective in the game if you play them as insides because their movment will lead to more useless shots from outside the penalty area ). 

 

 

Edited by Naor5563

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18 minutes ago, Naor5563 said:

so the game kind of 'forcing' us to play flanks football based on crosses (overlaps sometimes and attacking full backs with cross more often and from byline instructions) and at least two strikers in order to find the net.

If that's been your experience, fair enough.  But don't make the mistake of taking your experience and turning it into "that's how the game is".  If you want to set things up so that you score at least the same (if not more) goals through the middle rather than from the flanks/crosses, or not have two (or more) strikers, it's possible to do so.

Right back in your opening post you asked for "Tactical Recommendations".  If you want to head over to the Tactics forum and detail your system with the issues you've been seeing I'm sure someone will be able to help.

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13 minutes ago, herne79 said:

If that's been your experience, fair enough.  But don't make the mistake of taking your experience and turning it into "that's how the game is".  If you want to set things up so that you score at least the same (if not more) goals through the middle rather than from the flanks/crosses, or not have two (or more) strikers, it's possible to do so.

Right back in your opening post you asked for "Tactical Recommendations".  If you want to head over to the Tactics forum and detail your system with the issues you've been seeing I'm sure someone will be able to help.

Since im doing great job, overachiever every season and scoring a lot of goals ( which basically most of them coming from the same pattern )  - I don't see actual need of discussion in tactical forum. I kind of realize the main weakness in the game, I don't see reason to make my life harder just to make it harder. I know how to escape the maze, why would I get lost?

This thread is not critisize, because I do enjoy and appreciate your work. It's just a real concern of an old and addicted fan. But the game should be more challenging ( and the reason he is not stuck in long shots. Soon you know you can leave your opponent to shoot, and the AI will shoot a lot of useless shot, it's done).

 

Edited by Naor5563

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30 minutes ago, Naor5563 said:

Since im doing great job, overachiever every season and scoring a lot of goals ( which basically most of them coming from the same pattern )  - I don't see actual need of discussion in tactical forum. I kind of realize the main weakness in the game, I don't see reason to make my life harder just to make it harder. I know how to escape the maze, why would I get lost?

This thread is not critisize, because I do enjoy and appreciate your work. It's just a real concern of an old and addicted fan. But the game should be more challenging ( and the reason he is not stuck in long shots. Soon you know you can leave your opponent to shoot, and the AI will shoot a lot of useless shot, it's done).

 

No problem.  I'm simply saying that if you believe the game forces us to "play flanks football based on crosses" as you put it, then you absolutely can do things differently if you so desire.

One thing I'll add - you know "how to escape the maze".  But if you're looking for more of a challenge as you state, how about trying to escape that maze in a different way?

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2 hours ago, Naor5563 said:

That's exactly the root of the problem. Long shots and cut backs play being so useless - so the game kind of 'forcing' us to play flanks football based on crosses (overlaps sometimes and attacking full backs with cross more often and from byline instructions) and at least two strikers in order to find the net.

100% this. If you want to play like Martin O'Neill's Villa or Moyes' Everton, you're laughing and the game becomes absurdly simple. If however, you think that approach is anachronistic and dull so try to create through midfield, the game becomes maddeningly frustrating and your full-backs/wing-backs remain your most creative players.

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Guest El Payaso

I think that a good indicator also is the AI teams and their success. If we search for teams that regularly overachieve in the game I could quite easily name for example Atletico Madrid and Bournemouth. And on the other hand teams like Manchester City and Barcelona are struggling. This for me tells a clear story about what the ME seems to favor. After all the AI is vanilla like @Svenc mentioned.

And same goes to players: Defoe, Joshua King etc. are regularly performing better than Messi and Ronaldo as they play in a multi striker system which SI have not managed to get balanced and they still quite clearly are overpowering with quite simple settings. 

I don't know how satisfying passing based football you can create with those big teams as I haven't played with them but at least the AI is finding it much easier to set up a successful system that either uses multiple strikers or is heavily based on crossing. I bet that also my Swansea side would be better if I would ditch my current approach and would start spamming crosses in. David Moyes would have been a great asset for Manchester United also... 

I actually enjoy my Swansea save a lot otherwise but not for the AI that seems like a totally lame one. Seeing Bournemouth climbing up on the table along with Leicester and Barcelona throwing away almost certain title immediately after the AI takes over. Also every time I go to see the goals from AI matches it's so easy to just see like "oh it's this goal again" as there are maybe less than 10 scenarios repeating. 

Some small details that might play in advantage of cross-based success is that in my opinion even inside forwards and inverted wingers seem to act like wingers too often and they stay wide when in possession instead of coming inside where they are needed. The AI Barcelona was quite bummer to watch as for example Messi was not getting involved in the game too much as instead of roaming and coming inside to get the ball he was just hugging the touchline on right hand side when for example Dembele was holding the ball. You can see for example in Hazard's real life performances what roaming actually means: it means roaming and him coming a lot in the middle and even to the right flank when probably his position in the formation is AML. Roaming for me is a broken thing in the match engine and lack of that will certainly hurt teams like Barcelona, Real Madrid and Man City for example.

PS. Sven I was also about to leave the general discussion completely but decided that I will stay here because discussing is actually quite fun here even though we will not be able to change the game or improve it any way. Might as well play and write about (probably) my last Football Manager version in years or ever.

PPS. Totally off-topic but would hope that more users with influence here would make their statements in the game: like being disappointed with it and because of that not writing about it/continue buying it to add some pressure on SI to possible change the way the game has been going. Some have done that and I bet that there are more of us. 

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On 1/1/2018 at 19:11, rdbayly said:

The below screenshot is accurately representative of the vast majority of my matches this season. I've included shots off target from my team (Wolves) and the opposition (Derby).

image.thumb.png.b133d76dadc578a7aa18f78a636efbe4.png

 

I've personally never seen worse shooting on any version of FM, from both human and AI teams. International class footballers on FM18 are hitting the target from the edge of the area about 10% of the time. It unhinges your entire tactic; especially when the offending players possess all of the mental and technical attributes to pick a better option that is available (I repeat AVAILABLE).

The biggest deal-breaker is how wild and off target these shots are. The inside forward role has been destroyed as a result.

I don't think it can be addressed in this ME with an update. Seems to be part of its DNA now.

 

I have pretty much the same experience in all my games this season and the ****** long shots are one of the major reasons why breaking down very defensive teams is nearly impossible sometimes. Even players like Pogba who have long range shots 19 and technique 18 regularly hits the corner flag with his shooting. I had a look at my last 20 league games and there are 0 goals scored from outside the box for me and my opponents.

There were versions of the ME where the long range shooting was out of wack but never to such an extend.

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Guest El Payaso
1 hour ago, Flohrinho said:

I have pretty much the same experience in all my games this season and the ****** long shots are one of the major reasons why breaking down very defensive teams is nearly impossible sometimes. Even players like Pogba who have long range shots 19 and technique 18 regularly hits the corner flag with his shooting. I had a look at my last 20 league games and there are 0 goals scored from outside the box for me and my opponents.

There were versions of the ME where the long range shooting was out of wack but never to such an extend.

It is quite a big bummer that you don't have to worry about these players taking dozens of long shots/free kicks against you.

 

If we look at for example this game you can notice that the effect of long shots can be quite huge and the variation of chances created is much higher here than usually on FM. Long shots creating more than crosses, not a single one from throw-ins or poor clearance after set play or player being unmarked at the edge of the area. FM's ME wouldn't create either of these goals while you do see these at times in real life.

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Guest El Payaso
On 1/5/2018 at 17:45, Svenc said:

In Rashidi's latest video he's basically scored the same goal twice, central through ball unleashing one of his forwards.

 

Quote

This is Rashidi (wasn't the one I contacted) too scoring the same goal twice, actually working the space so that a defensive splitting through ball can at all come to pass. You can't just argue the game wouldn't offer anything to you without delving a bit deeper her yourself (and putting the AI under some scrutiny).

I never basically watch his videos but decided to watch these two goals. The first one is okay I guess. Okay the clearance from the full back is totally wrong and quality full backs should pick generally more intelligent option than trying to make a risky clearance to the middle like that . That happens at times in real life too though so that is something that can be accepted. Filipe Luis at the same time has drifted outside Kluivert which makes the IF favorite and by that he can get into the end of the through ball.

The second one though is shocking and especially from the Atlético midfielders' ineffective ball chasing when they have clear man advantage defending a slow tempo attack. Also most pundits would say goodbye and good luck back in Brazil before retirement days as that defensive performance would be bread and butter even for amateur footballers. A world class (in the game) wingback who is inside the IF when the pass is played lets the opposition player escape like that... Unacceptable. 

In the stoppage time there is another example of Kluivert escaping from Filipe Luis in quite basic defensive situation. It's a break yes but yet another mistake from Luis. At the same time Kluivert has no attributes to school Filipe Luis like that: quite poor intelligence with (off the ball and anticipation 12) and probably not even faster than Luis. Should be totally pocketed in games like this against players like that.

Tells quite sad story about midfield and full/wingback defending in the game currently (or more likely still). And still the world class AI teams with 3 midfielders somehow fail to exploit that man advantage in the middle and beat teams playing with 4-4-2. :( And by that making CMs score and assist. Bad AI or nerfed intelligence/vision? In my opinion both. 

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2 hours ago, El Payaso said:

 

I never basically watch his videos but decided to watch these two goals. The first one is okay I guess. Okay the clearance from the full back is totally wrong and quality full backs should pick generally more intelligent option than trying to make a risky clearance to the middle like that . That happens at times in real life too though so that is something that can be accepted. Filipe Luis at the same time has drifted outside Kluivert which makes the IF favorite and by that he can get into the end of the through ball.

The second one though is shocking and especially from the Atlético midfielders' ineffective ball chasing when they have clear man advantage defending a slow tempo attack. Also most pundits would say goodbye and good luck back in Brazil before retirement days as that defensive performance would be bread and butter even for amateur footballers. A world class (in the game) wingback who is inside the IF when the pass is played lets the opposition player escape like that... Unacceptable. 

In the stoppage time there is another example of Kluivert escaping from Filipe Luis in quite basic defensive situation. It's a break yes but yet another mistake from Luis. At the same time Kluivert has no attributes to school Filipe Luis like that: quite poor intelligence with (off the ball and anticipation 12) and probably not even faster than Luis. Should be totally pocketed in games like this against players like that.

Tells quite sad story about midfield and full/wingback defending in the game currently (or more likely still). And still the world class AI teams with 3 midfielders somehow fail to exploit that man advantage in the middle and beat teams playing with 4-4-2. :( And by that making CMs score and assist. Bad AI or nerfed intelligence/vision? In my opinion both. 

All of the cited examples above are symptomatic of the ME massively lacking variety and dynamism. As I understand it, results are calculated when you submit your team (of course tactical changes can influence said result) - But there are so few ways the ME can visually represent the goals scored, it resorts to nerfing quality players into making glaring errors. That is why time after time, individual battles are lost on the pitch when player attributes suggest this should be highly unlikely. I'm talking about:

- Small forwards dominating tall strong defenders in the air

- 1 v 1 foot races to loose balls being won by significantly slower players

- 50 / 50 tackles in midfield being won by weak players

(all of the above works both in your favour and against you I should add) 

Anyway back to the long shot issue. Another reason for their prevalence is static movement up front. If a wide player or striker is man marked in the box, they should be pulling away or running laterally / diagonally to try and shake them off. Look at Aguero's movement for that goal against Burnley where Gundogan back heeled it to him. Aggressive running from deep midfielders beyond the forward is notoriously hard to recreate in this ME.

This lack of movement makes the ball carrier resort to some wild effort like in my screenshot earlier in the thread. Pity such shots consistently fail to make the keeper even work and often end up closer to the corner flags.

Intelligence and variety make a match engine, a lack of it kills it dead.

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I'm not playing the game for about one week now and probably will only play when another update comes out. I was winning , but no fun playing it. No matter what I did, seeing so many nosense long shots, with better option around. If someone from SI watch highlights from pkms I submited on bugs forum and want to say if it's tactical problem, ok, if don't, perhaps next uptade kind of fix this, purposely or not.

 

Edited by shadster

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3 minutes ago, shadster said:

I submitted, watch highlitghts of those games will give plenty of examples, but still waiting for one of those two things you mention to happen..

1 - You didn't mention the clear instances in the matches or any of the other variables I mentioned.

2 - You submitted it on a Friday night, so you'd probably need to wait for normal working hours to hear something.

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7 hours ago, El Payaso said:

It is quite a big bummer that you don't have to worry about these players taking dozens of long shots/free kicks against you.

 

If we look at for example this game you can notice that the effect of long shots can be quite huge and the variation of chances created is much higher here than usually on FM. Long shots creating more than crosses, not a single one from throw-ins or poor clearance after set play or player being unmarked at the edge of the area. FM's ME wouldn't create either of these goals while you do see these at times in real life.


The question is, how huge is it. In each of those shots, the keeper edges them. You can't possibly balance this on highlight clips, either way. They're highlight reels for reason. Half the stuff is omitted. From watching a few, it seems to have gotten some worse, but equally to the above "shot maps", when does anybody follow such in football at such a frequency? I'm just saying this that whatever fixing is applied, you can't possibly base this on youtube clips. That's how the Fifa guys do it, as their matches are basically a reel of Youtube highlight clips / Nike adverts. Neat to look at, lots of nice touches, but at a rate that is complete fantasy. This is a sports where 90% of the stuff comes to zilch, and for some reason only the Yanks seem to get it.

Unless SI would release the research papers they take into account, they cannot "win" either way. I'm somebody that argues, the more realistic, the better. Problem is, realism is also massively frustrating, and in a sports such as football, includes a ton of randomness. If they'd aim for that, I can guarantee these forums would ex-plo-de, as it would draw players comparably powerless (and certainly not make them guarantee any overachievement if doing something "right) [and quite a few of it has always been in the game, obviously]. And everybody who for some reason wonders how he can go from winning against Real Madrid the one week to losing against that perennial "bottom of the table", same as their forwards suddenly going on massively on/off streaks, would worry doubly more. No longer would it also be possible at all to pretty much rise through the leagues / ranks in linear fashion, one season you may finish Europa League, suddenly the next you struggle to find a single win. The root cause of this? Matches being settled in key moments, and most of these key moments highly favoring the keeper to save / the forward to bottle it. Which is something fundamental to understanding any scoring and winning streak in football.

I think we can agree on that the game is, and likely never will replicate football as is, either way. The overall dynamics are important, and they're arguably the bigger thing in all of this. There's got to be a hierarchy of importance, no less due to the invariably knock-ons. Not much playing FM at the moment, but currently the scout reports show teams (by November) in the BL would average about 3, 4 goals from range. I'd expected that somebody would at least have run some editor experiments by now, but alas, this is GD... :)Realism is key, and it better not be based on Youtube highlight reels (and I agree that shots are too readily way wide, etc.)

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26 minutes ago, Svenc said:


The question is, how huge is it. In each of those shots, the keeper edges them. You can't possibly balance this on highlight clips, either way. They're highlight reels for reason. Half the stuff is omitted. From watching a few, it seems to have gotten some worse, but equally to the above "shot maps", when does anybody follow such in football at such a frequency? I'm just saying this that whatever fixing is applied, you can't possibly base this on youtube clips. That's how the Fifa guys do it, as their matches are basically a reel of Youtube highlight clips / Nike adverts. Neat to look at, lots of nice touches, but at a rate that is complete fantasy. This is a sports where 90% of the stuff comes to zilch, and for some reason only the Yanks seem to get it.

Unless SI would release the research papers they take into account, they cannot "win" either way. I'm somebody that argues, the more realistic, the better. Problem is, realism is also massively frustrating, and in a sports such as football, includes a ton of randomness. If they'd aim for that, I can guarantee these forums would ex-plo-de, as it would draw players comparably powerless (and certainly not make them guarantee any overachievement if doing something "right) [and quite a few of it has always been in the game, obviously]. And everybody who for some reason wonders how he can go from winning against Real Madrid the one week to losing against that perennial "bottom of the table", same as their forwards suddenly going on massively on/off streaks, would worry doubly more. No longer would it also be possible at all to pretty much rise through the leagues / ranks in linear fashion, one season you may finish Europa League, suddenly the next you struggle to find a single win. The root cause of this? Matches being settled in key moments, and most of these key moments highly favoring the keeper to save / the forward to bottle it. Which is something fundamental to understanding any scoring and winning streak in football.

I think we can agree on that the game is, and likely never will replicate football as is, either way. The overall dynamics are important, and they're arguably the bigger thing in all of this. There's got to be a hierarchy of importance, no less due to the invariably knock-ons. Not much playing FM at the moment, but currently the scout reports show teams (by November) in the BL would average about 3, 4 goals from range. I'd expected that somebody would at least have run some editor experiments by now, but alas, this is GD... :)Realism is key, and it better not be based on Youtube highlight reels (and I agree that shots are too readily way wide, etc.)

I don't think professional football is random in the way you say, if you've ever played or trained with pro's then you'll see that immediately. Especially at the highest level ,where the level of consistency and accuracy of the players is at it's peak ever in football history, it's far too simple to reduce it to a game of chance.

In this particular case, finishing and shooting in general is not a trait governed by chance. It is influenced by the player's ability and amount of training put into it, and these form a consistent base from which the player draws their skill. Shots are not put on target through randomness or luck, and you can generally see that as the more technically proficient players tend to be better at shooting. The reason why it seems so random is that teams usually play teams of a similar level, so the margins between these teams are small. However, if they are to play smaller teams where they will generally have more time and space and the goalkeeper is generally poorer, that's when you see how good they actually are.

Edited by Cap'nRad

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Guest El Payaso
38 minutes ago, Svenc said:


 

I know and that is why more than ten years ago stopped playing games such as NHL and FIFA as they don't have anything to do with something that I would enjoy as they are pure arcade games lacking most of the basics that ice hockey/football have. Controlling someone like Hazard and tapping some button to make perfect tricks in full speed while closed down by two or three etc. They don't have anything to do with football. 

The only reason for that YouTube clip from me was to point out that in some games the long range shooting can be the main source and actually make big difference while on some games it might be crossing (like West Ham had in the previous one where I think Carroll scored twice from crosses). But this kind of variation doesn't seem to exist on FM and most of the time crossing is the prime source for goals while for example direct free kicks and long range shooting are basically all the time harmless. I think Willian two seasons ago scored a direct free kick in 4-5 games in a row, Paulinho is scoring regularly for Barca from DM position, MC position players are providing most of the assists in Premier league etc. There is a bigger variation in real football while on FM you have those regular scenarios that don't even make any sense if and when you want to compare things to real life and these are like mentioned for example every team being able to regularly score from crosses, no-one learning to mark the outside of the area player in set pieces, strikers being two or three times more involved to passing than in real life etc.

I wouldn't go to real football with the engine as it would probably cause lot of whining like you said and also so often would be really boring to watch. The only thing I would ask is to have a lot better variation and more goals having logic in them. Currently these are in poor state and as many repeating scenarios are just random random occurances it makes it even more frustrating as you get the feeling that this has nothing to do with football or style of plays (aka making tactical errors or right decisions). And in my opinion a game like FM should make things like tactical choices even more significant than they actually are in real life as that is what we are aiming to see when we play it: our own clear hand mark when we manage a team.

But that's it from me on this discussion. I think I have pointed out my opinions and views. :)

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53 minutes ago, El Payaso said:

But that's it from me on this discussion. I think I have pointed out my opinions and views. :)

I think we're on the same page anyways. :) I've only (and in parts due to FM) become interested in digging a few deeper. It also sometimes helped me a bit understanding the results I tended to get a bit better. Also an interesting piece here, this is fundamental across all levels -- the margins in between the top and average are percentages, rather than miraclous differences.  Unlike direct free kicks, "ranged attempts" happen a bit more oftenly, which makes it all a bit more "measurably". Outside of the conversion, what is paramount, to "suspend disbelief" is naturally also getting the general play/dynamics to a point where you may look ad this and say, yeah that seems legit. If the majority of attempts would barely even at all test the keeper, even if the player wasn't actually under pressure and in loads of space, then that would be a problem. I don't know if such is feasible, but if possible I'd program outright "drill routines" for specific scenarios where they could test a couple things. E.g. a specific ME drill regime to test long shots (under pressure/no pressure) from various angles and areas, etc. So they could start that, and purely "stress test" scenarios, and "soak test" that. Also on different levels of attributes, etc.

 

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On 1/6/2018 at 00:21, Svenc said:

It seems @Rashidi more recent pretty enjoys his sides, at least overall.

The reason why I am not responding to this thread, is because I score the majority of my goals from inside the penalty area. I don't have long shots issues, I do score some blinders but I know that if I can get the ball out to my creative players they can do something like find the open person who can lay either a deadly ball through traffic or a great cross across the face of goal. I think there are more fundamental issues like the backs who follow their targets, which can be stopped with a role change. I just don't like the fact that I am forced into a specific role to stop a fullback from tracking someone across the penalty area. I can live with that, but as far as long shots are going and how people claim that this is an engine problem, imho its not.  

My tactics or rather super system, relies on 3 complementary systems that I use over the course of a season. I expect us to get a lot of goals from either crosses or from through balls, and our goals are mostly placed shots from inside the area. In the last 50 games we have scored 88 goals from inside the penalty area compared to 11 from outside the box. I can consistently produce systems that do not produce these long shot issues people are complaining about. 

 

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