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jackob

Please re-assure me - positions 'matter' right?

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Terrible confession - I did something shameful and childish. Desperate to retain my Newcastle job just to give me a little longer to build something, I resorted to a crime my 15 year-old-self last committed on CM97: I Added Manager and hijacked/sabotaged the next AI team I was due to be facing. I NEEDED a win or else game over.

(desperate times clearly, and I don't need to be told this is pathetic)

Now here's what happened.

I deliberately 'messed up' the position selections of the Arsenal players. Blunderbuss centre-half Mangala became the striker. Right back Kenny Tete became the advanced playmaker. Most ridiculously of all, Brazilian hitman Roberto Firmino moonlighted as a centre back alongside natural-born-defender Danny Welbeck. With the exception of goalkeeper Cech, nearly all of the players were in chronically inappropriate positions. 

...I felt awful..

...but the horror didn't play out as I expected...

 

Arsenal scored first and ended up with more shots on target. Kenny Tete (!!!) scored a wonder strike. My strikers couldn't break through the seasoned rearguard of Firmino and Welbeck...

Desperate to follow through with the intention, I resorted to putting Mesut Ozil in goal. Only then could I scrape to the 2-1 victory I needed to keep my job. 

 

Please, please, please - what is going on here?

I deserved what came to me, but this has now become a worrying insight into how things might 'work' (or indeed 'not work') at ME level.  

 

What do people think? Do positions 'matter' in the world of the ME? How can this happen?

Screenshot below. The idea of Firmino and Welbeck functioning as CBs in a team that was FULL of 'wrong' selections and then promptly bettered my Newcastle side has alarmed me and punctured my suspension of disbelief...

 

 

newcastle v arsenal.jpg

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Unrealistic input = unrealistic output 

When will people ever learn this? 

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haha I do love the tone of it here!

Can you help me understand what you mean?

 

I genuinely just want to 'believe' 

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21 minutes ago, jackob said:

haha I do love the tone of it here!

Can you help me understand what you mean?

 

I genuinely just want to 'believe' 

When a player doesn't have any experience/ability in a position only the decisions attribute is reduced, the rest of his attributes stay the same.

Attributes are what the ME uses when it calculates a match.

Looking at your pic above Kolasinac, Coquelin & Iwobi are more or less in natural positions.  Corona & Lozano have swopped but several key attributes overlap between full back & winger such as pace/crossing etc.  Chambers has a lot of good attributes to make him a decent defensive MC while Welbeck's height will mean he would win a fair amount of headers and do ok.

From the average ratings you can see that Firmino & Mangala didn't do very well.

We can't see your tactics but I suspect Arsenal scoring first would mean they would sit back more meaning a more compact shape and with Coq/Chambers protecting Welbeck/Firmino you would find it difficult to break them down while they would hit you fast on the counter often ending with Mangala fluffing the shot.

 

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To be fair to the OP, playing some players so obviously out of position should see some kind of drawback. After all, irl, that's what would happen, right?

 

@Dagenham_Dave, I see your point, but surely the match engine should be able to recognise this and produce a corresponding match?

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Thanks Cougar - very reasonable reflection indeed.

Mons - appreciate your support, and indeed your very astute question back at Dagenham Dave.

Cougar, to build on your analysis of the engine - presuming you are right (which I imagine you might be about ME calculations), the second question is: is that good enough? Should the ME do a better job of assessing what we presume to be Firmino's poor understanding of the CB role?  Or is this AI for about 2049? 

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I remember a long time ago on FM08(?) I actually tried this for other reasons: seeing how well I could get Arsenal to do whilst not playing a single player in a position they had any ability to play. They struggled to beat anyone that wasn't significantly weaker than them and not just because Fabregas wasn't cut out to defend at all. It seems like the positional nerf was quite big (Gallas had the attributes to be a half decent striker, for example, but seemed to drift around in deeper positions without ever threatening to expose defenders with his pace)

On the other hand, in more recent versions, a YouTuber won the league with 11 Jamie Vardys, though he relied on his 4-2-4 outscoring his own rubbish defence and benefited from players actually learning to play their new position over the course of the season

 

I've always assumed that in practice the position system is mostly implemented by position-specific preferred moves so a natural striker - even one with low mental attributes - will try and make a lot more runs in behind than Mangala, and even a mediocre defender will be better at playing the offside trap than a non-specialist. On the other hand, if they've scored a freak goal and are smothering you in midfield and hitting you on the break, none of this intricate positional stuff matters that much...

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I don't want to be "that guy", but if you are on such a poor run of form that in desperation you resort to such measures and then struggle to beat a team with players forced into unnatural positions, what does that say about your own team and methods?

I'm not trying to be nasty, and arguably perhaps there should be greater penalties for playing players so far out of position, I'm just concerned you might be glossing over what may be at the heart of your problems.

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39 minutes ago, Mons said:

To be fair to the OP, playing some players so obviously out of position should see some kind of drawback.

Well, it did - Arsenal lost a match they (probably) should have won comfortably.

My limited understanding of real-world football also suggests that professional footballers spend some training time playing in unfamiliar positions because - because of injuries and red cards - they might have to play there in a competitive game. We've all seen defenders as makeshift strikers, and vice-versa, and I'd suggest that any top-class professional should be able to play a variety of positions - probably not well, but to a competent level.

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12 minutes ago, jackob said:

Cougar, to build on your analysis of the engine - presuming you are right (which I imagine you might be about ME calculations), the second question is: is that good enough? Should the ME do a better job of assessing what we presume to be Firmino's poor understanding of the CB role?  Or is this AI for about 2049? 

Its a difficult question.

Players IRL are fairly versatile, play different positions/roles and change as they get older with many playing a different position as an professional to what they did in a youth team.

The clear difference is the GK and I think that is reflected fairly well, stick any outfield player in goal and they'll flap around, miss crosses, drop easy catches etc.

Elsewhere you can generally split players into defensive or offensive types.  Fullbacks and more defensive midfielders share a lot of skills and you would expect them to fill in to a decent standard.  DCs are a little more complicated but again share skills with both fullbacks and defensive MCs so they should do a half decent job.  Likewise further forward where more attacking MCs are fairly interchangable with many able to play as strikers with the right sort of team play.

In the past IRL we've also seen a number of more target man type strikers double as DCs so it is possible as well that someone like Welbeck could do a half decent job.

Overall I think its a knock on effect of physical attributes maybe being a bit OP in FM despite being toned down a little in recent versions.  A good athlete will do a decent job anywhere on the field.  Maybe it should be toned down a bit more but I don't think it needs a significant overhaul.

Going back to the OP it would be interesting to see the player stats for the likes of Welbeck/Firmino - How many tackles did they attempt/miss, how many mistakes did they make compared to a natural DC.

 

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Interestingly enough, the absolute best forwards have a skill set based around perception/awareness of what's happening that marking/tackling aside they would make good defenders. 

Which is actually not all that unrealistic, its less common these days for a player to transition between the CB & CF/ST position, it happens quite a lot at youth level as the lack of finer technical attributes has much less of an impact. You would see much more success running directly at a team with players like Firmino & Wellbeck in defence than passing around them. They're the ideal players to keep up with nimble interplay, or to sweep up balls in behind the defence. 

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When you decided to cheat anyway,  why did you pick a reasonable tactic and first team players? I know I would have done the complete opposite, 2-3-5 and a lot of nobodies / youngsters in the squad.  :D

If anything, this experiment emphasizes how hard it must be for Rafa to try getting something out of this pile of !"#¤%&/.. 

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It would be nice to know the truth behind this since i spend a lot of time managing the positions of players. That's time i could be spending somewhere else if only attributes matter and the rest is just placebo.

 

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9 minutes ago, Rancor said:

It would be nice to know the truth behind this since i spend a lot of time managing the positions of players. That's time i could be spending somewhere else if only attributes matter and the rest is just placebo.

 

Cougar already answered this though? Did you want to know something else?

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2 hours ago, Footix said:

When you decided to cheat anyway,  why did you pick a reasonable tactic and first team players? I know I would have done the complete opposite, 2-3-5 and a lot of nobodies / youngsters in the squad.  :D

If anything, this experiment emphasizes how hard it must be for Rafa to try getting something out of this pile of !"#¤%&/.. 

This.

Everyone knows that if you want to do this, you play the reserves and put everyone out on the wings.

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23 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

Cougar already answered this though? Did you want to know something else?

I wasn't sure how much of his post was speculation and how much facts. So i guess they don't matter then other than for the decisions attribute. Good to know.

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36 minutes ago, Rancor said:

I wasn't sure how much of his post was speculation and how much facts. So i guess they don't matter then other than for the decisions attribute. Good to know.

If a player has the attributes to do a decent job in a position, then they will be able to do a decent job in that position. They are just far more likely to do something stupid/something they shouldn't (hence the nerf in decision). That is why you should not really be too concerned if you have to stick a fullback into central defence for 20 minutes because of an injury of red card. They probably have the attributes to do a decent job there, but it is not something you would do week in and week out. Well, you could try I guess, so see how many mistakes they make and how their rating suffers.

Anyway, to me it is pretty obvious that if you play a player with, for example, tackling 12, marking 12, positioning 12, heading 12 who is normally a midfielder, or someone with 2 for all those attributes who is normally an attacking playmaker, the former is going to do alright since he can do what defenders have to do to some degree. The second player is going to be a disaster.

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Maybe the game recognized you were meant to cheat. :p What sporadicsmiles said though. The penalty for playing players out of position isn't that huge. It's a different matter if they lack the traits for that position completely though, usually. In a one-off match anything can happen still (3 shots on target of 17 looks curioius, was likely tactical though). Long-term, usually not that much. Besides, it may have been a terrible Newcastle team and tactics too (I mean, you were about to be sacked, right)?

Edited by Svenc

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4 hours ago, warlock said:

Well, it did - Arsenal lost a match they (probably) should have won comfortably.

My limited understanding of real-world football also suggests that professional footballers spend some training time playing in unfamiliar positions because - because of injuries and red cards - they might have to play there in a competitive game. We've all seen defenders as makeshift strikers, and vice-versa, and I'd suggest that any top-class professional should be able to play a variety of positions - probably not well, but to a competent level.

I see what you mean, there. However, there have been plenty of times irl when teams (at both an elite and a non-elite level) had severe injury problems in a particular position yet had cover elsewhere, but still had to field a youth-teamer, rather than select a player completely out of position. I would think it is quite rare that a forward has the necessary skill-set to competently perform in defence. Maybe in a one-off match, he may manage not to look wildly inadequate, but over a longer of period I would expect him to demonstrate his deficiencies consistently and unforgivingly.

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Lol at Kolasinac, the single player used in his natural position and worst performer of the team after striker Mangala! :lol:

Edited by kandersson

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19 minutes ago, Mons said:

Maybe in a one-off match, he may manage not to look wildly inadequate, but over a longer of period I would expect him to demonstrate his deficiencies consistently and unforgivingly

Oh yeah, agreed. But in the OP's case, it was a one-off match. It would be interesting to see how a team with players consistently out of position managed over a season, or even a run of 10 or 12 games. I strongly suspect, like you, that it would prove that positions do, in fact, matter.

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1)  The OP has been on a long run of poor form to the point of being sacked.  Something's wrong there.

2)  Despite screwing with Arsenal (which his player's are going to be fearful of playing) the OP still only just manages to squeak a win against the likes of Welbeck in defence.  Something's still wrong and it's got little to do with out of position players.

3)  Perhaps there is something up with penalties for playing players out of position, perhaps there isn't.  But is it just me that thinks 1) and 2) need to be addressed first?

If you're in such dire straights that you're facing the sack and only just manage to beat a team despite nerfing them, something's up with your own team which needs addressing.

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1 hour ago, Mons said:

I see what you mean, there. However, there have been plenty of times irl when teams (at both an elite and a non-elite level) had severe injury problems in a particular position yet had cover elsewhere, but still had to field a youth-teamer, rather than select a player completely out of position. I would think it is quite rare that a forward has the necessary skill-set to competently perform in defence. Maybe in a one-off match, he may manage not to look wildly inadequate, but over a longer of period I would expect him to demonstrate his deficiencies consistently and unforgivingly.

This largely depends on the manager and team - Man City have been playing Delph at Left-Back for most of the season, Liverpool played Milner at Left Back last season both players you wouldn't naturally expect to play at left back, Man Utd have turned Valencia and Young from Wingers into Full-Backs, and several years back were forced into playing Midfielders Fletcher and Carrick at Centre-Back and their were a few occasions when Ferguson seemed to just throw random players into the Utd Midfield.

Then back in England in the 1990's their were a few players who did play both upfront and in Defence - Dion Dublin, Chris Sutton and I think one of Leicester's defenders (Taggert or Walsh?).

For the OP's match without more information there is no real way to know what was up with the match.

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3 hours ago, michaeltmurrayuk said:

This largely depends on the manager and team - Man City have been playing Delph at Left-Back for most of the season, Liverpool played Milner at Left Back last season both players you wouldn't naturally expect to play at left back, Man Utd have turned Valencia and Young from Wingers into Full-Backs, and several years back were forced into playing Midfielders Fletcher and Carrick at Centre-Back and their were a few occasions when Ferguson seemed to just throw random players into the Utd Midfield.

Then back in England in the 1990's their were a few players who did play both upfront and in Defence - Dion Dublin, Chris Sutton and I think one of Leicester's defenders (Taggert or Walsh?).

For the OP's match without more information there is no real way to know what was up with the match.

Again, I see what you mean and I agree with the idea, but you could make an argument why all the above instances ended up being partial if not complete successes. Besides, I'm sure a real-life team can get by with a player totally out of position, but certainly not 6-7 of them. It'd be bedlam, surely :D

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4 minutes ago, Mons said:

Again, I see what you mean and I agree with the idea, but you could make an argument why all the above instances ended up being partial if not complete successes. 

Probably because the manager doesn't just pull "Milner - LB" out of a hat but actually takes a few weeks to get him comfortable in the role in training unless it's an emergency thing as seen in lower leagues with small squads, where it's usually not quite as successful! :D

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21 minutes ago, PJHoutman88 said:

Probably because the manager doesn't just pull "Milner - LB" out of a hat but actually takes a few weeks to get him comfortable in the role in training unless it's an emergency thing as seen in lower leagues with small squads, where it's usually not quite as successful! :D

I didn't want to clog my post with reasons like this tbh, but that's exactly my point and why it's even more unrealistic to just put somebody in a random position and get a just below average performance rather than an outright poor one...

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If the coders wanted, they could code it so that playing players out of position == instantly 30% of his ability, therefore, numerous players played out of position = instaloss. Heck, Fifa Manager did this. Seems they disagree with that though. That said, I tested such numerous times on recent incarnations, and got the best sides in the league to underperform (sack typically by about October, November, December). Might be worth a test on the current editions still. ;) What would actually happen in real football is impossible to tell, as teams outside of severe crisis are never forced to approach something like this. Comparably recent Austria Vienna played basically without a natural defender for weeks due to all their defenders being injured or carded, holding Salzburg to a draw, amonst a few other things.

If you asked me, the entire notion of players being "trained" for a rigidly set position on the pitch isn't how top football works anyway. It's only video games that work that way. It's naturally another thing if you play Messi as a centre back or something, but in-game too, he's a total liability long-term, no less as he loses so many header challenges to start with. The only way the game would fully compare to football was if the second by second match play was fully like football, which it isn't either way. There's numerous positions on the pitch that see comparably few pressure due to defending limitations for a start. Add to this limitations in how the game simulates individual player traits. Plus, who knows how Newcastle lined up here anyway. Given that Arsenal had quite pace players upfront played out of position or not, in particular. Now if this was Rashidi struggling to score against this Arsenal until he put Özil in goal, I'd be worried. :D It's unlikely that he was put in that dire position in the first place though.. Or, any halfway sensible AI (outside the completely stupid stuff it still does on FM 2018). If the guy thinks he's found something, he should report the match, simple as that. Unlikely that he'd face much opposition if there was something about it, as for the majority on these forums anyway, some kind of "realism" seems key to the experience.

 

Edited by Svenc

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this is a really interesting topic.

My team, of course, was bereft of confidence and had probably been 'averagely' set up by me...but - still - I am not a complete mug. When you spend hours, often encouraged by the extent of the in-game signposting, trying to manage player roles/suitabilities/formations etc, only to find that a (sabotaged) positional omnishambles can still get on top of you - it definitely provokes some questions...

We're not talking about the odd Milner, Ashley Young or Fabian Delph pick here, we're talking 6-7 players spectacularly out of position. We're talking a Brazilian raumdeuter-forward-guy playing CB (presumably for the first time in his life?) alongside Danny Welbeck (who, though his traits are certainly appropriate, has no track record in the Dion Dublin/Chris Sutton category)! 

Would love to hear from SI how this is actually calculated. Is it really just Decisions that are modified downwards? Does this feel quite right?

I feel awful for the situation. I shouldn't have cheated like that. Now I've just stumbled into something that has just punctured my belief in the ME a little. Totally my fault, and I do understand the POV around unrealistic input = unrealistic output. But you would HOPE that the game would be able to do more to reflect the issues that would likely emerge. 

Perhaps most pointedly, perhaps I'm being naive here, but when you buy a Football Manager game one assumes that 'selecting the right guys in the right positions' (or at least appropriate positions) is kind of a core competency? Jesus, we used to blame England managers for right footers at left back, for Scholes wide-left, for centre-halves playing on the wrong-side (left vs right etc)...in comparison, Firmino as a CB ought to be an outright calamity? 

 

(ps - no hostility here at all. And I am not precious about my own mgmt shortcomings. For reference - my team set up was almost entirely neutral, with generally balanced defensive, support and attack roles and very few team Tactical Instructions. I tend to do this in early years of a dynasty I'm trying to build as will look to optimise later, when my player stock is improved etc. In short, I am not a tactical genius at ALL, but nor am I completely crippling my team with conflicting TIs, PIs etc.)

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6 minutes ago, jackob said:

Is it really just Decisions that are modified downwards? Does this feel quite right?

You say "just" Decisions as if it's not a big deal. Decisions affects every decision a player makes. What else should it affect though? He's physically and technically still the same player.

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So decisions are super-important? I don't know that much about how the game works - can you help me understand how decisions play out? 

(again, just to be clear, tone above is friendly, curious and discursive. It's all good...!!!)

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Just now, jackob said:

So decisions are super-important? I don't know that much about how the game works - can you help me understand how decisions play out? 

(again, just to be clear, tone above is friendly, curious and discursive. It's all good...!!!)

As I said, Decisions affect every decision a player makes. Of course it's important.

That's not to say a player can't be played out of position, but the more unfamiliar they are with a position, the more their decision making will be affected.

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33 minutes ago, jackob said:

I feel awful for the situation. I shouldn't have cheated like that. Now I've just stumbled into something that has just punctured my belief in the ME a little. Totally my fault, and I do understand the POV around unrealistic input = unrealistic output. But you would HOPE that the game would be able to do more to reflect the issues that would likely emerge. 

Perhaps most pointedly, perhaps I'm being naive here, but when you buy a Football Manager game one assumes that 'selecting the right guys in the right positions' (or at least appropriate positions) is kind of a core competency? Jesus, we used to blame England managers for right footers at left back, for Scholes wide-left, for centre-halves playing on the wrong-side (left vs right etc)...in comparison, Firmino as a CB ought to be an outright calamity? 

 

On ‎20‎/‎12‎/‎2017 at 11:14, herne79 said:

I don't want to be "that guy", but if you are on such a poor run of form that in desperation you resort to such measures and then struggle to beat a team with players forced into unnatural positions, what does that say about your own team and methods?

I'm not trying to be nasty, and arguably perhaps there should be greater penalties for playing players so far out of position, I'm just concerned you might be glossing over what may be at the heart of your problems.

 

21 hours ago, herne79 said:

1)  The OP has been on a long run of poor form to the point of being sacked.  Something's wrong there.

2)  Despite screwing with Arsenal (which his player's are going to be fearful of playing) the OP still only just manages to squeak a win against the likes of Welbeck in defence.  Something's still wrong and it's got little to do with out of position players.

3)  Perhaps there is something up with penalties for playing players out of position, perhaps there isn't.  But is it just me that thinks 1) and 2) need to be addressed first?

If you're in such dire straights that you're facing the sack and only just manage to beat a team despite nerfing them, something's up with your own team which needs addressing.

Sorry but why are you still looking at a supposed fault with the ME?

Your form is so poor that you're on the point of being sacked.  That's got nothing to do with the ME.  And to demonstrate this further you then struggle to beat an Arsenal side who has players being played out of position.  Why is that a problem with the ME?

When you nerfed Arsenal, what were you expecting from a team bereft of confidence, possibly a dodgy tactic and lacking morale?  A 10-0 drubbing?

You ask for reassurance that positions matter, well they absolutely do matter.  Your own tactics also matter, as does player morale, injuries, body language, team talks, dynamics and a whole host of other things.  I don't want to sound blunt, but start by looking at your own problems that have got you into this mess in the first place.

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totally cool! Why the hostile stance? I'm not looking for faults, I'm just opening up a conversation and trying to deepen my understanding of the game...

 

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I understand you guys feel like you get battered sometimes, but I'd urge you - if you want to grow this community - to tone down the in-house defensiveness attribute a little!

 

 

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3 hours ago, jackob said:

this is a really interesting topic.

My team, of course, was bereft of confidence and had probably been 'averagely' set up by me...but - still - I am not a complete mug. When you spend hours, often encouraged by the extent of the in-game signposting, trying to manage player roles/suitabilities/formations etc, only to find that a (sabotaged) positional omnishambles can still get on top of you - it definitely provokes some questions...

We're not talking about the odd Milner, Ashley Young or Fabian Delph pick here, we're talking 6-7 players spectacularly out of position. We're talking a Brazilian raumdeuter-forward-guy playing CB (presumably for the first time in his life?) alongside Danny Welbeck (who, though his traits are certainly appropriate, has no track record in the Dion Dublin/Chris Sutton category)!

I don't think a players position rating is that important his general attributes are more important - for example looking at Welbeck at the start of the game apart from Positioning, (8) Tackling (6) and Marking (6) the rest of his CD attributes are all 13-15 so he could probably do a job at centre-back especially against a weaker out of form Newcastle side, even Firmino doesn't look that out of place at Centre-Back - Marking 10, Jumping 11 rest are ~14 both of whom look like they could handle Batshuayi in the air if anything you would have been better putting Ozil and Iwobi at Centre-Back as I would expect both of them to struggle more.

For the other players you've got what I assume is the Mexican Winger Corona at Right Back who looks rubbish defensively but would be effective going forward so he would depend on the role and how you targeted him and it looks like your LW was tearing him apart but didn't seem to have any support from your LB who underperformed. In the AM slot is the Dutch Full Back Tete who looking at his starting attributes could do a good enough job as an AM depending on the role and then there is Mangala who had a shocker upfront whilst the rest are playing in familiar positions.

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If all of the above were true why irl are forwards often found wanting in a defensive set-piece situation?

On the ball they’ll generally be okay but when defending while the opposition has the ball more often than not an attacking player should look like they belong a few divisions lower if they are playing along the back line.

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I know there are already loads of attributes, but this makes you wonder if there should also be both an offensive and defensive attribute for some of the mental ones. Like offensive positioning, defensive positioning, offensive decisions, etc. A defender may have great positioning ability thus a high number for that attribute. However if you stick him at forward, he's still going to have a great positioning attribute number. Does that get teased down like the decisions attribute when you play him out of position? Also, does the players versatility affect the degree to which the decisions attribute will be decreased if played out of position?

 

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10 minutes ago, Barside said:

If all of the above were true why irl are forwards often found wanting in a defensive set-piece situation?

On the ball they’ll generally be okay but when defending while the opposition has the ball more often than not an attacking player should look like they belong a few divisions lower.

IRL from set-pieces it could be a case of the player not wanting or bothering to defend, one thing the game probably cannot simulate is the players motivation - if Wenger told Welbeck to play at Centre-Back and Mangala upfront would they? would they put in a full shift or just sulk around the pitch? (Obviously copying the above case where there was no need for them to play out of position).

Also without more information we don't know how they did in the match from the ratings Firmino didn't do great but we don't have any details on how the match played out.

1 minute ago, kmcmillan19 said:

I know there are already loads of attributes, but this makes you wonder if there should also be both an offensive and defensive attribute for some of the mental ones. Like offensive positioning, defensive positioning, offensive decisions, etc. A defender may have great positioning ability thus a high number for that attribute. However if you stick him at forward, he's still going to have a great positioning attribute number. Does that get teased down like the decisions attribute when you play him out of position? Also, does the players versatility affect the degree to which the decisions attribute will be decreased if played out of position?

 

As far as I am aware Positioning is only used in a defensive sense, in the Attacking sense Off The Ball is the Attribute used.

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I believe anticipation is what will help a lot of players who are good attackers perform perhaps a bit better than you'd expect or think they would defensively. A lot of the best forwards have good anticipation, while off the ball and positioning have a defensive/offensive split, anticipation doesn't. The best defenders will also have high anticipation.

It does mean in theory, and based upon how the attributes work, if you're playing fairly loose passes/balls in behind etc towards a striker in defence he's not going to struggle all that much. His positioning defensively may be poor, but he's still going to be aware enough due to anticipation. 

To my mind, to capitalise on a striker out of position at CB you'd want to do 2 things - run straight at him, to force him to tackle and put his ability to mark to the test and to close him down as fast as possible, because while composed the enormous penalty to his decisions will mean a greater risk of a poor backpass, a poor pass in general, trying to play his way out of it etc. I suspect the poster has tried to play his normal attacking game, which obviously based on previous results isn't that good, and more than likely relies on trying to probably exploit pace or moving defenders out of position and then exploiting that space.

Having seen Mame Biram Diouf at RB for Stoke far more than I would have liked this season, its definitely been the case that anyone who runs at him and makes him defend has a much better time than anyone who just tries to out-do him for pace or with a ball in behind (unless he's wandered miles out of position)

This season has been a masterclass down at Stoke on putting players out of position and seeing how they cope with it.

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Since you likely kept the result, an upload of the match may have long shared a few more light on the matter [if you click on the result, there's a "save match" button on the match screen]. Long-term I wouldn't advice doing such in any kind of way, and that goes back to FM 2009ish already. Outside of individual results, I was sacked by October with the likes of Bayern Munich playing Breno as forward, Ribery and Robben as centre backs, etc. I do suspect Cougar's observation may hold some value, namely that is physically traits harming it all the most. It's fairly obvious if you play a player with no pace on the flanks that the amount of "successfully" dribbles goes down a huge amount all itself -- same as Ribery as CB is such a liability in the backline because he loses so many header challenges. How much depends naturally also on the opposition -- back then as Bayern you faced opposition every week that didn't even try to attack and put them under pressure much (typically defensive AI dropping deep with up to 6 defend duties from kick-off). Plus your own appraoch to defending -- a high press will see different situations the backline faces than a low block (with the low block in tendency exposing Rib/Rob as physically inferior centre backs more).

What the game doesn't do, and has never done is turning footballers into idiots because they're put on a different section of the pitch. And better players know how harmful it was for weak AI selections in prior editions in particular, where Real Madrid would go with say Kroos and Modric as their "holding players" in midfield, making their midfield a sensibly exploitable walk-in for their opposition, despite the match sim being limited compared to real football. Unfortunately, human players still hold all the trump cards here -- and it shows in their results. Precisely because stuff matters at least a few, starting with selecting the right players with the right attributes/traits in the corresponding position. AI is incapable of even the most simplistic stuff here, such as when managing lower-league, going with a Target Man system, signing players that have such a height advantage over your average CB on the level they complete 65+% of their seasonal headers. On those levels, I sometimes put a towering Centre Back in the forward line to produce regular flick-ons, as you can have such an edge here. That's not even the slightest arguing the game were just like real football, because it isn't. However, whoever questioned why and HOW Arsenal managed to hang on in the above until Özil was put in goal is questioning this for a reason (one being what both sides actually played like -- the other being curious as to what actually happened in that specific match, no less as it might reveal serious flaws).

How is anybody supposed to tell? Surprised @Rashidi hasn't chimed in yet, as there's likely few players that know how attributes link as much as him, also on a purely mechanical level. Maybe because there's nothing that warrants discussion from his at this stage... and he had to guess as much as anyone.

Edited by Svenc

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3 hours ago, jackob said:

totally cool! Why the hostile stance? I'm not looking for faults, I'm just opening up a conversation and trying to deepen my understanding of the game...

 

Not hostile, just a bit frustrated at being ignored twice and even now on the 3rd attempt the only response I get is to be accused of being hostile and defensive.

There isn't anything going on here other than trying to help you get out of your poor run of form.  That might be tactical, player management, personnel or whatever related.  Deepen your understanding of what is going on there, that'll produce useful results if you do :thup:.  But at the moment you're not focussing on that, you're focussed on a supposed deficiency with the ME.  I'm simply trying to get you focussed on things you actually have control over because that can change your fortunes around.

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there is also another thread i have been reading, about decisions not having any sort of important effect on performance, through editing entire leagues to see what difference it all had

i dont know 'how much' of it is true, but if the main penalty of being out of position is the decisions, and the decisions aren't having anywhere near as big of an effect as the guides would suggest, it could go a long way to explaining what happens here

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8 minutes ago, lemeuresnew said:

there is also another thread i have been reading, about decisions not having any sort of important effect on performance, through editing entire leagues to see what difference it all had

i dont know 'how much' of it is true, but if the main penalty of being out of position is the decisions, and the decisions aren't having anywhere near as big of an effect as the guides would suggest, it could go a long way to explaining what happens here

The thread was debunked.

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12 hours ago, santy001 said:

I believe anticipation is what will help a lot of players who are good attackers perform perhaps a bit better than you'd expect or think they would defensively. A lot of the best forwards have good anticipation, while off the ball and positioning have a defensive/offensive split, anticipation doesn't. The best defenders will also have high anticipation.

This is where the inherent limitations of defining football ability with a numerical range & only modifying decisions based on positional rating comes into play.

The anticipation attribute given to the attacker & defender will be based on the opinion reached while watching each player in their natural positions where each player will display pre-emptive movement based on the experience which in general will have been in areas of the pitch they’d expect to be in based on their normal position/role.

Ask those players to swap to either end of the pitch & their experience is less relevant which in turn often results in them not being as effective when anticipating how a passage of play around them is more likely to develop, therefore their antipicatiin attribute has to be considered as being lower than its normal rating.

It’s a limitation within the ME but one that will be quite complex to address as increasing the number of attribute modifiers will exponentially increase the risk of unintended outcomes which manifest as bugs.

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1 hour ago, lemeuresnew said:

there is also another thread i have been reading, about decisions not having any sort of important effect on performance, through editing entire leagues to see what difference it all had

i dont know 'how much' of it is true, but if the main penalty of being out of position is the decisions, and the decisions aren't having anywhere near as big of an effect as the guides would suggest, it could go a long way to explaining what happens here

Decisions is the most heavily weighted attribute a player can have, that's what the test told us nothing more.

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1 hour ago, Flohrinho said:

Decisions is the most heavily weighted attribute a player can have, that's what the test told us nothing more.

I hate to see misinformation or rumours begin, and that thread has the potential to be just that.

While decisions is a heavy weighted attribute, it is not the universally most heavily weighted attribute. Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. It varies on a player by player basis.

Attribute weightings are never that clear cut, and there isn't a single attribute which is universally the most heavily weighted. 

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7 minutes ago, santy001 said:

I hate to see misinformation or rumours begin, and that thread has the potential to be just that.

While decisions is a heavy weighted attribute, it is not the universally most heavily weighted attribute. Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. It varies on a player by player basis.

Attribute weightings are never that clear cut, and there isn't a single attribute which is universally the most heavily weighted. 

Well his test showed that through the bench players with 20 in decision lost the most attribute points in other categories. Not in all mind but there was a clear trend noticeable. The higher the decision attribute the more the rest of the other attributes dropped.

Wouldn't it also make sense that this is the case given that we have repeatedly heard that decision influences the effectiveness of every other attribute at least in a minor way?

I don't get why this is even a "secret" or why there isn't a specific topic found that actually explains how attribute weighting works, all we get is well tests like these that somewhat indicate that certain attributes are more heavily weighted than others. That would actually go a long way to stop "rumors" and "misinformation". Just saying. :kriss:

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@Flohrinho attribute weightings are very powerful. While his test may have shown something, as someone with the actual researcher editor to hand, who can boot it up and see the actual weighting for players, on a player by player basis I can tell you the conclusion is wrong.

You already know how attribute weighting works, it affects CA acquisition and how much improving a specific element will take up in terms of CA.

What you don't know is how much CA 1 more point of passing would take up for Lionel Messi as it would for Cristiano Ronaldo. 

You aren't supposed to know these things though. There's also far too much variation for any kind of hard or fast rule. 

Why do you think you need to know exactly? It is heavily weighted, but it isn't the same for all players, and for some players other attributes have a heavier weighting. 

- - -

As an aside, I would love it if SI had some kind of pill I could take after the research phase that lets me forget everything I know after having been involved in the research.

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1 minute ago, santy001 said:

@Flohrinho attribute weightings are very powerful. While his test may have shown something, as someone with the actual researcher editor to hand, who can boot it up and see the actual weighting for players, on a player by player basis I can tell you the conclusion is wrong.

You already know how attribute weighting works, it affects CA acquisition and how much improving a specific element will take up in terms of CA.

What you don't know is how much CA 1 more point of passing would take up for Lionel Messi as it would for Cristiano Ronaldo. 

You aren't supposed to know these things though. There's also far too much variation for any kind of hard or fast rule. 

Why do you think you need to know exactly? It is heavily weighted, but it isn't the same for all players, and for some players other attributes have a heavier weighting. 

For one being open with information like these will help with stopping the guess work that often surrounds these topics and spread like you say false information. If the correct information isn't out there then there is a good chance that this will happen again and again. I don't even know why things like this have to kept a secret? Are you afraid there will be too much "discussion" about if the weight of an attribute for a certain player is correct?

The reason I brought this up is because the results of the testing around decisions showed not that decision was broken but that the players with the highest decision attributes also had the biggest drop in other attributes across the board compared to those with other attributes raised.

Of course like mentioned if you don't want this information out there to avoid unnecessary discussion about the weighting for player x is right or wrong I understand that but of course that means you will have to intervene when the occasional "test" spills the discussion of attribute weights back up.

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I can attest to one of the big reasons why they shouldn't be public. A number of years back the attribute weightings were pretty close to having been figured out, a training system was developed around this that allowed you to manipulate attribute weightings to a desirable level in which almost all attributes had their weightings fairly low. This meant following this cookie cutter guide that appeared on the forums it was very easy to get a massively overcooked player. It meant CA became an irrelevance, and players could manipulate players to become far better. Then Keirrison proceeded to knock in over 2,000 goals for me in the Premier League.

While it's a lot more sophisticated now, the fact remains that if you give the full attribute weighting system out you're exposing a huge element of the game that isn't meant to be part of it. 

Do you want to play the game of football manager, or meta-football manager? If what you seek is this kind of advantage, that gives you such an edge in the game, the easiest way is to just take control of each AI team you play against and play their u18's. 

Don't get me wrong, its fascinating to get the insight and see the bits and pieces and know more about how they work together, but on the flip side @Flohrinho if you get to see it in all its glory, you also get to see it warts and all. It's been working well since its last overhaul, no one has (publicly at least) found a way to break the system again. I expect that if given free reign to see it all someone would figure out the weakspots and pressure points and it would very quickly become in need of another overhaul. People would pool knowledge and resources, and it would just break the game for anyone with access to the forums on which it takes place.

People do find weaknesses in the game anyway, the 3 up top formations are a great example you see on the tactics and sharing board are great examples of exposing a limitation of the game. Why open the door to more? As I said, if you want unbridled success, with nothing being able to stop you, there are other ways. 

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