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Decisions is a broken attribute and appears to have a negative effect on team performance

Neil Brock

Just to clarify as the opening post and point of this thread has been debunked as shown here following feedback from SI's Ed

We appreciate everyone who contributed and anyone who conducts certain tests with the game. Just remember it's always worth asking us if you can, as we can give advice on how to conduct accurate experiments :thup: 

 

Message added by Neil Brock

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On 23/12/2017 at 00:04, Mr U Rosler said:

Correct.

Or in other words, if you were building the most effective player you could from scratch and had 150 'ability points' to spend, the implication is that you'd be better off not spending a lot on the decisions attribute due to the 'weighting' and instead spend those 'points' elsewhere.  

Well no - I don't think the test proves that for the ME Decisions is unimportant at all. For me the take-away is the opposite to you. A player with high technical attributes and high physical attributes constantly making poor decisions would be extremely frustrating - in a real, non-testy environment anyway.

I accept that the opposite extreme - a player with 20 DECISIONS but too slow and technically inept is not much use either. It strikes me that if what this thread has exposed re weighting is correct, SI have it about right.

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1 hour ago, phnompenhandy said:

Well no - I don't think the test proves that for the ME Decisions is unimportant at all. For me the take-away is the opposite to you. A player with high technical attributes and high physical attributes constantly making poor decisions would be extremely frustrating - in a real, non-testy environment anyway.

I accept that the opposite extreme - a player with 20 DECISIONS but too slow and technically inept is not much use either. It strikes me that if what this thread has exposed re weighting is correct, SI have it about right.

Exactly. Just because decision making affects informs so many attributes, doesn't mean it should override the impacts of all of them. 

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2 hours ago, BMNJohn said:

Has there been another update on this matter beyond the second batch of tests?

https://strikerless.com/2017/12/18/fm18-labs-the-final-decisions-results/

Nope, at least nothing here.

As stated in that article and at the top of this thread, flaws were found in the testing methodology and so the results were debunked.  If somebody has been conducting further tests they haven't been shared and SI would look into them just as quickly again if they were.

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Weren't the test flawed because lowering decision would raise other stat or something like that? Doesn't that show that decision weight too much if raising other stat of equivalent weight give much better result?

Edited by Vernum

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2 hours ago, herne79 said:

Nope, at least nothing here.

As stated in that article and at the top of this thread, flaws were found in the testing methodology and so the results were debunked.  If somebody has been conducting further tests they haven't been shared and SI would look into them just as quickly again if they were.

The article I posted isn't the same that is in the first post, has already been posted in this thread and had been updated after the comments about the testing methodology were made, albeit on the same day. This is why I ask if anyone has news about any of it.

Edited by BMNJohn

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I've also been conducting my own tests.
Freezing attributes, and setting a central defender with decisions 20. Running 3 seasons.
And then doing the same with decisions 1. And by freezing attributes, no other attributes will go up or down.
After the 6 seasons, I can say that with decisions 1, he made 6 more fouls, over an average of 39 appearences. But his average rating was 0.29 higher.
Futhermore, the tests with decisions at 1, showed higher pass completion ??? If the attribute "Decisions" has another meaning than what it says ingame and in the manual, SI should please change it. Is it possible that the higher the decision attribute, the faster he can make a decision, and in turn will make faster play/passing better? And also would give more sense lower league to premier league.
But all in all. In my opinion - the CA cost of decisions is 'currently' way too high.
In a lower league save that I currently play, I focus on getting players with low decisions, because that means that other attributes will be higher, and those players play very well for me.

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8 hours ago, mcswifty said:

I've also been conducting my own tests.
Freezing attributes, and setting a central defender with decisions 20. Running 3 seasons.
And then doing the same with decisions 1. And by freezing attributes, no other attributes will go up or down.
After the 6 seasons, I can say that with decisions 1, he made 6 more fouls, over an average of 39 appearences. But his average rating was 0.29 higher.
Futhermore, the tests with decisions at 1, showed higher pass completion ??? If the attribute "Decisions" has another meaning than what it says ingame and in the manual, SI should please change it. Is it possible that the higher the decision attribute, the faster he can make a decision, and in turn will make faster play/passing better? And also would give more sense lower league to premier league.
But all in all. In my opinion - the CA cost of decisions is 'currently' way too high.
In a lower league save that I currently play, I focus on getting players with low decisions, because that means that other attributes will be higher, and those players play very well for me.

I don't think your test proves anything (not from what you've posted anyway) because there's the huge variable of the team's performance too. For example - If the team did better, for whatever reason, in the test with Decisions 1, then his Avg Rating will be higher.

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I know all the tests in the world can have their flaws, but still... So many people finding problems with decisions must say something.
What exaxtly does that attribute do? Why is it so expensive? How does it relate to the other attributes?
If SI can't or won't answer some of those questions, then I'll have to stick to my gut feeling, because lower decisions players, have more CA potential to spend other places.

In the different threads I've read about Decisions, many tests have been called "debunked, flawed, failed, too short" But doesn't it beg the question though?
Acceleration, Pace, Work Rate, Strength, Stamina, Bravery, Concentration, Passing and so on.. Those attributes can really, really show a huge difference between 1 and 20. But decisions doesnt? How is that fair, when its so expensive?

Can SI please give us a good reason. And not just an excuse as to why peoples tests doesnt work. Or say they will look into it, since they've had since December 2017.

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10 minutes ago, mcswifty said:

I know all the tests in the world can have their flaws, but still... So many people finding problems with decisions must say something.
What exaxtly does that attribute do? Why is it so expensive? How does it relate to the other attributes?
If SI can't or won't answer some of those questions, then I'll have to stick to my gut feeling, because lower decisions players, have more CA potential to spend other places.

In the different threads I've read about Decisions, many tests have been called "debunked, flawed, failed, too short" But doesn't it beg the question though?
Acceleration, Pace, Work Rate, Strength, Stamina, Bravery, Concentration, Passing and so on.. Those attributes can really, really show a huge difference between 1 and 20. But decisions doesnt? How is that fair, when its so expensive?

Can SI please give us a good reason. And not just an excuse as to why peoples tests doesnt work. Or say they will look into it, since they've had since December 2017.

You're asking questions that were answered. If you do have something, the bugs forum with copies of the saves would be helpful.

 

https://strikerless.com/2017/12/18/fm18-labs-the-final-decisions-results/ Right at the top it says SI DID look into it and found flaws with the tests and that they didn't find anything buggy. In the bugs forum, they said the same thing - that they'll still do some tests, but that they didn't see any issues at that time.

 

Then, also Decisions is heavily weighted because it affects every single decision a player makes and there are hundreds of decisions to make in a match. Deciding correctly what to do and when to do it shouldn't be something that's "cheap" in terms of CA.

How was your test done? Definitely in full match detail?

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No. My test was a holiday throughout the years.
But not seeing any difference between a decisions 1 player and a decisions 20 player is weird.
And even seeing a decisions 1 player on average doing better than a decisions 20 player?

Yes, my tests is far from perfect. Yes it could have been done better, but I won't do SI's work for them. Doing a proper test takes the average away from it all, which is all we see as players.
But in all honestly, if decisions is so shearer-sharp great and important to a player, why doesn't it show then?
You can tell me every day of the week, what decisions do, but at the end of the day, I honestly cannot see what you say in the match engine.
My players with decisions 1 can play just as well as decisions 20 players. And in some areas, decisions can costs up towards 20-35 CA points depending on position.

I'm sorry HUNT3R but, I doubt you can tell me anything about decisions, that hasn't already been said. And it doesnt explain to me why its so expensive.
That it affects everything a player does in the match engine... Well, I can't see it happening in my match engine to be honest.

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@mcswifty Were your loaded league(s) running in full match detail? It's critical to have it in full match detail, otherwise it's using the quick sim engine.

You obviously added a manager, but did you have him be unemployed and then just went on holiday?

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You think, that if I use the IGE to freeze a key player at 160 CA, with decisions 20, and that same player with decisions 1, will show a difference, with the leagues on full detail?
I'll give it a go, for sure.

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2 minutes ago, mcswifty said:

You think, that if I use the IGE to freeze a key player at 160 CA, with decisions 20, and that same player with decisions 1, will show a difference, with the leagues on full detail?
I'll give it a go, for sure.

It will then be using the full ME, not the quicksim engine, so yes, it should certainly show a difference. Remember, the quicksim engine IIRC, uses squad CA and rep as the main deciders. The full ME is obviously a million times more detailed - that's why processing is a LOT slower if you have full detail on. I know (and Barside too) as we usually run all leagues and all of them on full detail too. :D

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Estimated game speed went from 5 stars to ½ a star... Jeez, this test better be worth it. haha

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Right. This is taking a long time.
Anyway, I've paused the test in the january transfer window.

I've frozen Michael Carrick's attributes, and locked decisions at 1.
14 appearences + 3 coming on as a sub.
3 goals, 3 assists, 4 yellow cards, pass completion 89%, tackle ratio 86%, mistakes 6, fouls 19, average rating 7,85

I think I'll save my game here, and start over with decisions 20, and pause again at the january transfer window to see the difference.
Might not be a big difference, but for me it will be enough, since FM19 is only 4 months away.

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@mcswifty

I'd like to mention two other points to consider:

1) Looking at one single attribute - any attribute - is fundamentally unsound.  A Striker doesn't just need Finishing.  The Decision to take a shot; the Composure to set himself; the Technique to help place his shot; the Anticipation and Off the Ball movement to get into the right position; his Determination to get into the right area; how brave he's feeling when faced with a monster centre half; the ability to handle Pressure; and then there are all the Tactical settings, Morale and how he's feeling on top of that which will influence what happens both on and off the ball.  And that's just one player out of 22.  Any failing within all of that can cause a striker to miss shots, all combined can cause him to score.  That's the difference between a good match rating and a poor match rating, not one single attribute.  20 Decisions doesn't mean he'll always make the right choice, just as 1 Decisions doesn't mean he'll always make the wrong choice.  It just means he'll have a gradually better chance of making a better choice the higher the attribute is along with everything else that's happening to him at the time.

Lets take the Carrick example.  With 1 for Decisions he'll assess all options available to him and then make a choice.  With 1 for Decisions he might be less likely to pick the best choice, but it still probably won't be a poor choice.  And even if it is a poor choice, that "poor choice" might just be a simple pass to a close by team mate, rather than a more telling pass up field.  It's a completed pass, it's still a decent enough Decision, it'll still improve his match rating.

2) You're concerned about the CA cost.  Worrying about CA can also be fundamentally unsound.  Two words: Mario Balotelli.  Balotelli has a pretty decent CA score.  Great Technical ability, good Physicals, decent Mentals in most areas.  But hands up who'd buy him.  Why not?  Because of his personality and ability to consistently put in a performance, none of which has anything to do with CA and is not included in the CA calculation.  I'd much rather have a player with lower CA but a better personality that I know I can trust to consistently perform, than a player who will be virtually unplayable on his day but where those days are very few and far between.  You can have the best looking player in the world with a fantastic CA score, but if he's inconsistent, doesn't like big matches, is injury prone, violent, can't be bothered to work during a match, is unprofessional, lacks ambition and chickens out of any challenge, he'll be a complete waste of money.

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Thanks herne79.

I enjoyed reading that.
And I know what you mean, there are alot of factors to consider with every action and every attribute, hidden or otherwise.
I just can't let it go, the part about the pricetag there is on decisions. Considering that how it actually works is under the hood.
As I've mentioned before - if decisions could explain that the higher the value, the faster the player would be able to react, make a decision faster. That would also make sense tactic wise. As you have faster play, with higher tempo. Instead its just about the 'quality' of his decisions, which is very shrouded, because as you say, even poor decisions might end up not being poor for the team. So why the steep price?
Because it is so high, I've keenly looked at centre mids and centre defenders in the past with higher decision attribute, but I now know that because of that shroud, and all those other factors, that the decision attribute isn't as important as the game makes it out to be.
I've come to find that certain other attributes, like Professionalism, Determination, Pace/Acceleration are far more important, and keeping morale high is also very important.

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