Help Replicating Pep's Current City Team>

[Flohrinho]

1 hour ago, gpassosbh said:

Thanks for this @Flohrinho. I had a look at the video and will try to implement this in a save.

One point is, when use IWB and when use FB?
Also, can I switch AP (A) for a MEZ (A or S)?

Thanks 

Probably depends on the opponent you are facing, if the formation is narrow you will get away with IWBs, if not I found that it gets really difficult to prevent them from hitting you on the open flanks. That being said, the few games I looked at Kyanites tactic it feels like it's really well forming the 2-3-2-3 shape that Guardiola usually favors when attacking and the RMD is quite a good compromise between the winger and IF setup, which you might have to change as well from time to time if the opponent has WBs on attacking duty or anything else that creates an overload on the wings because attacking duty players don't really track the FBs that well.

[Jyuan83]

To be honest i tried replicating man city’s tactic several months ago on this forum with fm17. The one important thing i learnt is that there is absolutely no hard and fast way of recreating it because we all view things differently from our perspective. As in who is to say that a 433 is any different from a 4141? Who is to say that a winger with ppms is any different from an IF? The key thing here is to get the overall flavour that you are looking for and for me it was to replicate wing play of the wingers to exploit the goalscoring we see from sterling recently and from leroy last season. For me on fm17 a wm on attack with cut inside, stay wider and roam with dribble more works well for me while on fm18 an IW on attack with stay wider, roam works well for my wingers. I look into creating the exploitation of the enlarged half-spaces so that my wingers can cut in and score. Had this idea from the meet my inside forward thread and it has worked well for me. To cut things short, just focus on a certain aspect of play you would like to replicate and you would have less frustration with it.

[vasilli07]

Looking at the PPMs of Sane and Sterling, they are both IFs with Sterling with the more attacking one. Putting them on IF role will make them predictable as their PPMs is giving them the same instructions, a winger role is likely to make them more unpredictable.

[retrodude09]

2 hours ago, vasilli07 said:

Looking at the PPMs of Sane and Sterling, they are both IFs with Sterling with the more attacking one. Putting them on IF role will make them predictable as their PPMs is giving them the same instructions, a winger role is likely to make them more unpredictable.

I did use wingers on support in a tactic that was based loosely on Guardiola but I found they were very wasteful with the ball. Even with 'Work Ball Into the Box' set as a TI. 

Has anyone found a way to counter this? 

[yonko]

Inside Forward role with stay wider PI for both would be the solution if you don't want the crossing.

Even if you watch the analysis of Thierry Henry about how Pep was playing at Barca, he says that Guardiola wants those guys wide 2/3 of the field. He only wants them coming inside when close to the goal. 

Personally, I think Sane is more like a Winger than Sterling in Pep's system. This way Silva can be a Mezzala on Sane's side and KDB can be RPM on Sterling's side.

[JimmyGuitarist]

Sometimes the fullbacks stay in deeper, narrow positions in the half-space (inverted fullback) whilst the wingers stay very wide & high. Sometimes they'll go forward and the wingers will go inside as attacking midfielders whilst the CM's will drop deeper to where the fullbacks were. I think these things happen either very fluidly or in a very structured way for certain games where he thinks players can effect the game better in specific positions. If the opponent defends in a 2 striker formation then 1 of the fullbacks will become an auxiliary 3rd CB or the defensive mid' will drift from being a CB & DM (half-back).

It's impossible to get this kind of fluid motion happening on the game, I just pick a very structured version of it which best represent his positional play and chop-&-change the roles during the game if I feel like it. This is what I use most often at the moment -

I use all the obvious possession instructions + have 3 tactics training the control, standard & counter mentalities. I switch between very wide, fairly wide & balanced width instructions. This is obviously just the absolute default shape I train the players with, I change the roles very often from game to game.

The most common is changing one of the Mezzala's to a Carrilero to shorten the passing length between them both if opponents keep intercepting square balls between them both. Quite often put the fullbacks one slot further in the wingback positions and change the BWM to a half-back against 2 strikers. I've tried the wingers in the AMR/AML slots but they move inside too early in the build-up. I didn't think the inverted winger role would work either but if you give them the Stay Wide PI, they strike the right balance between width during the build-ups and getting into the box when necessary. If I feel like we're losing control a bit, it's usually because of the wingers being too risky so during those phases I'll put them as IW-S or even WM-S just to stop them being wasteful. I've picked the DF-De because he seems to stay more between the lines more than any other ST role and he plays quite a lot of good throughballs to the IW'ers.

[thejay]

The problem with trying to recreate his way of playing is how the game handles wide players. 

Guardiola used a different way to attack at the start of the season when Mendy was still playing. The wing backs moved high up and the wingers moved inside, the midfield three also spread wide across the field. 

 

So the wide  players would be inside forwards and fullbacks would be wingbacks.

 

Since the injury he plays with true wingers again, Sterling and Sane stay very wide and up the pitch which is impossible to do at least in the am position in fm.

 

If you play them aml amr wingers they still move inside and not stay wide like true wingers should. 

 

In the @Rashidi interpretation the wingers still move inside and don't stay wide like the should 

[JimmyGuitarist]

4 hours ago, thejay said:

The problem with trying to recreate his way of playing is how the game handles wide players. 

Guardiola used a different way to attack at the start of the season when Mendy was still playing. The wing backs moved high up and the wingers moved inside, the midfield three also spread wide across the field. 

 

So the wide  players would be inside forwards and fullbacks would be wingbacks.

 

Since the injury he plays with true wingers again, Sterling and Sane stay very wide and up the pitch which is impossible to do at least in the am position in fm.

 

If you play them aml amr wingers they still move inside and not stay wide like true wingers should. 

 

In the @Rashidi interpretation the wingers still move inside and don't stay wide like the should 

I had this problem when using them in the AML/AMR position but I've got much better width now using them in the MR/ML positions.

Here's some pictures, I'm managing Lazio so we're in sky-blue colours.

 

Not all ideal but at least they keep a distance from the opponent fullback rather than playing right next to them like the AML/AMR does.

[Jyuan83]

Spot on @JimmyGuitarist those images are exactly how they space out. If you see the image i attached, they more or less are spaced out like this in the match against watford close to the final third.

[goqs06]

15 hours ago, thejay said:

The problem with trying to recreate his way of playing is how the game handles wide players. 

Guardiola used a different way to attack at the start of the season when Mendy was still playing. The wing backs moved high up and the wingers moved inside, the midfield three also spread wide across the field. 

 

So the wide  players would be inside forwards and fullbacks would be wingbacks.

 

Since the injury he plays with true wingers again, Sterling and Sane stay very wide and up the pitch which is impossible to do at least in the am position in fm.

 

If you play them aml amr wingers they still move inside and not stay wide like true wingers should. 

 

In the @Rashidi interpretation the wingers still move inside and don't stay wide like the should 

As you’ve said earlier @thejay Guardiola is a Flexible tactician and expects his players to perform different roles. The basic 4-3-3 formation is retained, but the roles assigned to players differ from game to game to counter different threats posed by the opposition. 

 

These are the roles given to these players:

Mendy: wb (a) takes the ball down and hugs the touchline

Walker: fb (a) or iwb (s)

Delph: iwb (d) or iwb (s) 

D. Silva: Mez (a) or Mez (s)

De Bruyne: Mez (s) or rpm

 

essentially, pep’s approach to matches is a proactive one, preparing his sides before the match. He defo doesn’t “Plug and Play” his tactics.

[thejay]

vor 18 Stunden schrieb JimmyGuitarist:

I had this problem when using them in the AML/AMR position but I've got much better width now using them in the MR/ML positions.

Here's some pictures, I'm managing Lazio so we're in sky-blue colours.

 

Not all ideal but at least they keep a distance from the opponent fullback rather than playing right next to them like the AML/AMR does.

Yes this is much better but in early fm version the wingers would not join the attack fast enough when played in the ml mr positions leaving the striker quite isolated who also drops not deep enough despite being a false nine. 

 

I haven't tried it  in fm18, does it work better playing them that way? 

[thejay]

Using information in this thread and what I have seen from Man City this season , I decided to create my own Interpretation of at least one way Guardiola has played with City  . 

The way Guardiola sets up his team to attack differently against certain opponents means that things change from match to match regarding fullback and midfield positioning and what the wingers do .

This tactic I think comes pretty close to one way Guardiola played with City   .

@JimmyGuitarist  is right regarding the wingers, if you want the wingers to stay wide and play like Guardiola plays them they have to be used in the ml mr spots and not aml amr.

 

This is the basic shape and instructions, no additional player instructions except to the gk to distribute to center backs  

 

 

 

 

I wanted to upload highlights but apparently the game crashes when I try to upload to youtube. 

 

Setting up the tactic like this generates a nice 2-3 structure when building from the back , the cbs spread wide and fullbacks support the dlp.

 

Also because the fullbacks move inside they drag their marker along and this creates one v one situations on the wing, exactly like Guardiola used to do it in reality. 

 

The Mezzallas move great into the half spaces and it allows for great ball circulation , defensive stability and combinations .

 

I think this tactic comes close to how Guardiola setup last season where he used the inside fullbacks more, I am really satisfied with how the inverted wingbacks behave now compared to fm 17 , its almost perfect. 

[goqs06]

1 hour ago, thejay said:

Using information in this thread and what I have seen from Man City this season , I decided to create my own Interpretation of at least one way Guardiola has played with City  . 

The way Guardiola sets up his team to attack differently against certain opponents means that things change from match to match regarding fullback and midfield positioning and what the wingers do .

This tactic I think comes pretty close to one way Guardiola played with City   .

@JimmyGuitarist  is right regarding the wingers, if you want the wingers to stay wide and play like Guardiola plays them they have to be used in the ml mr spots and not aml amr.

 

This is the basic shape and instructions, no additional player instructions except to the gk to distribute to center backs  

 

 

 

 

I wanted to upload highlights but apparently the game crashes when I try to upload to youtube. 

 

Setting up the tactic like this generates a nice 2-3 structure when building from the back , the cbs spread wide and fullbacks support the dlp.

 

Also because the fullbacks move inside they drag their marker along and this creates one v one situations on the wing, exactly like Guardiola used to do it in reality. 

 

The Mezzallas move great into the half spaces and it allows for great ball circulation , defensive stability and combinations .

 

I think this tactic comes close to how Guardiola setup last season where he used the inside fullbacks more, I am really satisfied with how the inverted wingbacks behave now compared to fm 17 , its almost perfect. 

Spot on here @thejay. But I think that one mezzala should be an rpm since De Bruyne sits deeper than David Silva who is a mezzala on Attack . Sterling cuts in more than sane, why don’t you try him out in the inverted winger role?

Btw what are your PIs?

[yonko]

On January 2, 2018 at 23:12, Jyuan83 said:

Spot on @JimmyGuitarist those images are exactly how they space out. If you see the image i attached, they more or less are spaced out like this in the match against watford close to the final third.

Actually this image shows that both Sane and Sterling are not as wide as people think. Look how Sterling is looking to run inside behind the fullback for the through ball. Sane is also not on the sideline, but rather tucked-in slightly.

[JimmyGuitarist]

28 minutes ago, yonko said:

Actually this image shows that both Sane and Sterling are not as wide as people think. Look how Sterling is looking to run inside behind the fullback for the through ball. Sane is also not on the sideline, but rather tucked-in slightly.

That picture doesn't best represent how they generally position themselves. It looks to me like they've just pressed to win back possession & are breaking forward.

This is more like it, Pep's Bayern in the white -

Or these from City -

[thejay]

vor 6 Stunden schrieb goqs06:

Spot on here @thejay. But I think that one mezzala should be an rpm since De Bruyne sits deeper than David Silva who is a mezzala on Attack . Sterling cuts in more than sane, why don’t you try him out in the inverted winger role?

Btw what are your PIs?

 

 

I tend to avoid using two playmakers because it makes both of them come looking for the ball, also I wanted to recreate the general principles not necessarily every detail which are adapted to the individual strengths of the city players. 

Also no PIs except keep on distribute to center backs , its certainly possible to refine the tactic some more but I am especially satisfied with the 2 -3 structure when playing out of defense,

 

it was never possible earlier in fm to get the centre backs to split properly 

 

[Gegenklaus]

8 minutes ago, thejay said:

 

 

I tend to avoid using two playmakers because it makes both of them come looking for the ball, also I wanted to recreate the general principles not necessarily every detail which are adapted to the individual strengths of the city players. 

Also no PIs except keep on distribute to center backs , its certainly possible to refine the tactic some more but I am especially satisfied with the 2 -3 structure when playing out of defense,

 

it was never possible earlier in fm to get the centre backs to split properly 

 

CB's do the split when using inverted wingbacks? Nice man. Do you have a screenshot of it?

[thejay]

Zitat

 

 

CB's do the split when using inverted wingbacks? Nice man. Do you have a screenshot of it?

 

 

 

@Gegenklaus

here you can see the 2 3 structure when building from the back , cbs are pretty wide 

 

[Gegenklaus]

Beautiful man.  Thanks. 

[Zakiii]

On 4.01.2018 at 13:53, thejay said:

Using information in this thread and what I have seen from Man City this season , I decided to create my own Interpretation of at least one way Guardiola has played with City  . 

The way Guardiola sets up his team to attack differently against certain opponents means that things change from match to match regarding fullback and midfield positioning and what the wingers do .

This tactic I think comes pretty close to one way Guardiola played with City   .

@JimmyGuitarist  is right regarding the wingers, if you want the wingers to stay wide and play like Guardiola plays them they have to be used in the ml mr spots and not aml amr.

 

This is the basic shape and instructions, no additional player instructions except to the gk to distribute to center backs  

 

 

 

 

I wanted to upload highlights but apparently the game crashes when I try to upload to youtube. 

 

Setting up the tactic like this generates a nice 2-3 structure when building from the back , the cbs spread wide and fullbacks support the dlp.

 

Also because the fullbacks move inside they drag their marker along and this creates one v one situations on the wing, exactly like Guardiola used to do it in reality. 

 

The Mezzallas move great into the half spaces and it allows for great ball circulation , defensive stability and combinations .

 

I think this tactic comes close to how Guardiola setup last season where he used the inside fullbacks more, I am really satisfied with how the inverted wingbacks behave now compared to fm 17 , its almost perfect. 

 

Do you have specific instructions for each player?

[Flohrinho]

On 1/4/2018 at 13:53, thejay said:

Using information in this thread and what I have seen from Man City this season , I decided to create my own Interpretation of at least one way Guardiola has played with City  . 

The way Guardiola sets up his team to attack differently against certain opponents means that things change from match to match regarding fullback and midfield positioning and what the wingers do .

This tactic I think comes pretty close to one way Guardiola played with City   .

@JimmyGuitarist  is right regarding the wingers, if you want the wingers to stay wide and play like Guardiola plays them they have to be used in the ml mr spots and not aml amr.

 

This is the basic shape and instructions, no additional player instructions except to the gk to distribute to center backs  

 

 

 

 

I wanted to upload highlights but apparently the game crashes when I try to upload to youtube. 

 

Setting up the tactic like this generates a nice 2-3 structure when building from the back , the cbs spread wide and fullbacks support the dlp.

 

Also because the fullbacks move inside they drag their marker along and this creates one v one situations on the wing, exactly like Guardiola used to do it in reality. 

 

The Mezzallas move great into the half spaces and it allows for great ball circulation , defensive stability and combinations .

 

I think this tactic comes close to how Guardiola setup last season where he used the inside fullbacks more, I am really satisfied with how the inverted wingbacks behave now compared to fm 17 , its almost perfect. 

Interesting to see people have switched to a 4-1-4-1 here because that was actually something I had in mind as well. MIght take some inspiration from your setup ;-) and give it a try as well.

[yonko]

20 hours ago, JimmyGuitarist said:

That picture doesn't best represent how they generally position themselves. It looks to me like they've just pressed to win back possession & are breaking forward.

This is more like it, Pep's Bayern in the white -

Or these from City -

Yes, that is more like it. It's funny how the opposition has set up in the last one. At City, Pep's set up so different than at Barca. It looks like he has learned a few tricks. The fullbacks are not as adventures because they have to protect from counter attacks, the wide forwards are extremely wide in most occasions and there is more spacing between KDB and David Silva than there was between Iniesta and Xavi. Pep is looking to stretch deep sitting defensive teams like spandex. 

[Kharza_FM]

Change the F9 to a AF-A and play it on Control/Flexible.. CML is MEZ-A and CMR is MEZ-SU (agree on the playmaker effect).  MR IW-A and RB FB-A.

 

Yeah definitely need STC as an AF-A to get the Aguero effect of dropping deep.. little flicks and layoffs to the MEZ and spinning to attack the box.  You need to the attacking of the crosses when out wide too.  I tried a DLF-A but the AF-A does the role better.

[yonko]

2 hours ago, Kharza_FM said:

Change the F9 to a AF-A and play it on Control/Flexible.. CML is MEZ-A and CMR is MEZ-SU (agree on the playmaker effect).  MR IW-A and RB FB-A.

 

Yeah definitely need STC as an AF-A to get the Aguero effect of dropping deep.. little flicks and layoffs to the MEZ and spinning to attack the box.  You need to the attacking of the crosses when out wide too.  I tried a DLF-A but the AF-A does the role better.

I highly doubt that you will achieve that effect with AF-A role and Flexible Shape.

[Flohrinho]

@thejay I had a look at your setup for the 5 games so far and I have to say your setup probably gets the closest I have yet see to who I would expect a Guardiola team to play in game. Great job man.

Pressing is the only thing I'm not yet 100% satisfied with but I don't think it's actually quite possible to press like City in game. It's still very good though.

[JimmyGuitarist]

11 hours ago, yonko said:

Yes, that is more like it. It's funny how the opposition has set up in the last one. At City, Pep's set up so different than at Barca. It looks like he has learned a few tricks. The fullbacks are not as adventures because they have to protect from counter attacks, the wide forwards are extremely wide in most occasions and there is more spacing between KDB and David Silva than there was between Iniesta and Xavi. Pep is looking to stretch deep sitting defensive teams like spandex. 

I'm not sure the actual shape is much different, it's more a case of different positions filling to create a similar shape. At Barca his CM's (usually Xavi on right side with Alves) had a similar job of what his fullbacks are doing now at City, and what he also done at Bayern. Here are some examples:

His Barca -

His Bayern -

His Barca -

His Bayern -

 

I think it's generally safe to say it's 5 players forward and 5 players back to help easily circulate the ball and then to easily press whenever there's a turnover.

Obviously there's always isolated occasions when players from the front 5 or back 5 will move to help create certain overloads and support play. I think this is the general positional idea though & based on FM's philosophy descriptions, this would fit into the Flexible philosophy? I'm currently using Highly Structured for placebo effect of thinking players will do more-less what I'm instructing though.

[thejay]

vor 12 Stunden schrieb Flohrinho:

@thejay I had a look at your setup for the 5 games so far and I have to say your setup probably gets the closest I have yet see to who I would expect a Guardiola team to play in game. Great job man.

Pressing is the only thing I'm not yet 100% satisfied with but I don't think it's actually quite possible to press like City in game. It's still very good though.

Thanks .

Some things i am not quite satisfied with though, sometimes for reasons unknown my players start to play incredible direct and hoof the ball forward, despite standard mentality and even when retain possession is ticked.

Maybe mentality needs to be lower or a more structured shape , maybe the wingers on support rather than attack .

 

Thats why possession is also not that high like I want it to be , only around 60% on average. 

 

 

I also try to recreate the second tactic Guardiola used at the beginning of the season when Mendy was playing which was similar to how he played with Barca.

With fullbacks high up and inside forwards as wingers but I am not quite sure what roles to give to the three midfield players.  Mezzala makes no sense because now the inside forwards operate in that half space . They also need to be wider and further back , not sure which roles suit best.

 

 

[Flohrinho]

47 minutes ago, thejay said:

Thanks .

Some things i am not quite satisfied with though, sometimes for reasons unknown my players start to play incredible direct and hoof the ball forward, despite standard mentality and even when retain possession is ticked.

Maybe mentality needs to be lower or a more structured shape , maybe the wingers on support rather than attack .

 

Thats why possession is also not that high like I want it to be , only around 60% on average. 

 

 

I also try to recreate the second tactic Guardiola used at the beginning of the season when Mendy was playing which was similar to how he played with Barca.

With fullbacks high up and inside forwards as wingers but I am not quite sure what roles to give to the three midfield players.  Mezzala makes no sense because now the inside forwards operate in that half space . They also need to be wider and further back , not sure which roles suit best.

 

 

He still does the inside winger thing and up pushing FBs in certain games, mostly though it's just one FB that pushes forward, sometimes it even changes in one game. I reckon it depends on where Guardiola thinks an overload will be beneficial.

I adopted the tactic in my Dortmund save with an IW-A on the left, since I don't have a left footed player in the team and put a FB-A/WB-S on that side who stays wide.

Concerning the possession it don't really pay much attention to it because it usually lowers if a team just passes around at the back which happens for a lot of super defensive teams. The problem that I saw wasn't really my own passing which is almost every game above 85%, 87% average after 10 games and that looks really good, especially considering that I don't really have a striker atm who fits into the F9 role.

[Gegenklaus]

45 minutes ago, Flohrinho said:

He still does the inside winger thing and up pushing FBs in certain games, mostly though it's just one FB that pushes forward, sometimes it even changes in one game. I reckon it depends on where Guardiola thinks an overload will be beneficial.

I adopted the tactic in my Dortmund save with an IW-A on the left, since I don't have a left footed player in the team and put a FB-A/WB-S on that side who stays wide.

Concerning the possession it don't really pay much attention to it because it usually lowers if a team just passes around at the back which happens for a lot of super defensive teams. The problem that I saw wasn't really my own passing which is almost every game above 85%, 87% average after 10 games and that looks really good, especially considering that I don't really have a striker atm who fits into the F9 role.

How do you play Auba? I would reckon he could be deadly on the right wing, giving him a lot of space to run into. Maybe having Götze as the false 9?

[Flohrinho]

1 hour ago, Gegenklaus said:

How do you play Auba? I would reckon he could be deadly on the right wing, giving him a lot of space to run into. Maybe having Götze as the false 9?

Phillip is doing quite alright as the false 9, Götze is just coming back from a long injury but I will probably try him there as well. Auba on the wing might actually be a good idea of getting him back into team. Currently though Schürrle and Pulisic are doing pretty amazingly there while Reus and Brandt are my inside wingers, even though Reus is injured almost all the time. Brandt (8) is currently my best goal scorer along with Philipp (7).

[roggiotis]

On 31/12/2017 at 21:31, JimmyGuitarist said:

 I didn't think the inverted winger role would work either but if you give them the Stay Wide PI, they strike the right balance between width during the build-ups and getting into the box when necessary.

+ cross less often

[yonko]

17 hours ago, JimmyGuitarist said:

I'm not sure the actual shape is much different, it's more a case of different positions filling to create a similar shape. At Barca his CM's (usually Xavi on right side with Alves) had a similar job of what his fullbacks are doing now at City, and what he also done at Bayern. Here are some examples:

His Barca -

His Bayern -

His Barca -

His Bayern -

 

I think it's generally safe to say it's 5 players forward and 5 players back to help easily circulate the ball and then to easily press whenever there's a turnover.

Obviously there's always isolated occasions when players from the front 5 or back 5 will move to help create certain overloads and support play. I think this is the general positional idea though & based on FM's philosophy descriptions, this would fit into the Flexible philosophy? I'm currently using Highly Structured for placebo effect of thinking players will do more-less what I'm instructing though.

Good analysis. I didn't say the shape is different though. I said the spacing at City is more than at Barca. This transformation obviously started at Bayern M. And of curse different players. While Silva is more similar to Iniesta/Xavi, KDB is completely different than them. Pedro was/is more similar to Sane/Sterling, but neither is Villa who was proven goalscorer. 

I think Pep is more cautious with City and his tactic is more safe to prevent counterattacks. He has been burned in the past from that at Barca and Bayern by losing CL semi-finals. Plus City are not at the level (yet) where Barca and Bayern were with him. But the football is still the best and the most enjoyable to watch.

[yonko]

12 hours ago, thejay said:

Thanks .

Some things i am not quite satisfied with though, sometimes for reasons unknown my players start to play incredible direct and hoof the ball forward, despite standard mentality and even when retain possession is ticked.

Maybe mentality needs to be lower or a more structured shape , maybe the wingers on support rather than attack .

 

Thats why possession is also not that high like I want it to be , only around 60% on average.

Maybe because you are using a BPD? Or maybe because the opposition is doing a good job pressuring you.

[Gegenklaus]

@yonko I always wanted to see your take on Pep's City. You were one of the first to talk about using Structured Shape with Roam From Position TI. Perhaps you could give us a quick insight in how you translated Pep's vision with City into FM? I know, I would love to see it.  

[goqs06]

On 1/7/2018 at 08:24, yonko said:

Maybe because you are using a BPD? Or maybe because the opposition is doing a good job pressuring you.

Pep likes his defenders to be comfortable with the ball. However most of us here opted to use a normal CD since BPD as the PI "More risky passes" is already locked in to this role. This would allow the ball to be more lost easily, contradicting Pep's possession based style.

[yonko]

16 hours ago, goqs06 said:

Pep likes his defenders to be comfortable with the ball. However most of us here opted to use a normal CD since BPD as the PI "More risky passes" is already locked in to this role. This would allow the ball to be more lost easily, contradicting Pep's possession based style.

Hence why I questioned the use of BPD. It was a hint, which obviously you missed too I guess.

[blehq12]

On 12/16/2017 at 13:39, Columnarius said:

@Rashidi

I really enjoyed the analysis in the following video:

 

I'm not sure I entirely agree with all the aspects of the FM tactic interpretation portion of the video but there are a few things that jump out at me:

1. The prevalence of through-balls
2. The prevalence of counter attacking
3. Getting the balance of how often (and in what phase of the game) to play risky passes forwards vs. play it safe and play back and/or sideways
4. Keeping the ball low / on the ground on crosses
5. Playing with horizontal width to stretch the space between defenders and open passing lanes
6. The importance of tuning such as...
   1. IWB vs. FB
   2. Defend vs. Support vs. Attack for the FB/IWB positions
   3. Adjusting the Defensive Line

The suggestion of using Raumdeuters instead of Wingers is an interesting question.  I admit that I find the winger's play when the player's dominant foot is the same as the side of the field they are on (example: Sterling playing AMR) to be a bit too predictable and one-dimensional.  I think that's mainly down to their dribble wide PI and it results in dribbling into the defense too often and dribbling to the corner too often.

I like the movement off the ball by the Raudeuter.  However, their mentality is a bit too high for me and it causes them to be too far up the field during build-up play. 

In order to address these points, I'm currently trying out the IF Support roles with  the following PIs:

1. Shoot Less Often
2. Tackle Harder
3. Roam from Position
4. Stay Wider
5. Close Down Much More

This analysis (together with @Rashidi's original video) led me to this:

 

I'll report back what I take away but I'm curious if anyone has any takeaways on this alternative to using Wingers.

I'd say Sterling's role was indeed the RMD. On the other hand, Sane played more like a pure, conventional winger.

[goqs06]

1 hour ago, blehq12 said:

I'd say Sterling's role was indeed the RMD. On the other hand, Sane played more like a pure, conventional winger.

Your line or reasoning would work with that, why don't you try it out?

[Cap'nRad]

I think it's important to remember Guardiola's flexibility with regards to roles and duties. The wide roles and the striker's role definitely change a lot from match to match, so making a one size fits all tactic might not be able to replicate that. The best thing imo is to make a base tactic which contains the core Guardiola principles, while being highly customizable. It works very well, and to me is a lot more fun as you feel more involved in every match.

[Gegenklaus]

3 hours ago, Cap'nRad said:

I think it's important to remember Guardiola's flexibility with regards to roles and duties. The wide roles and the striker's role definitely change a lot from match to match, so making a one size fits all tactic might not be able to replicate that. The best thing imo is to make a base tactic which contains the core Guardiola principles, while being highly customizable. It works very well, and to me is a lot more fun as you feel more involved in every match.

Hows your core setup?

[Cap'nRad]

19 hours ago, Gegenklaus said:

Hows your core setup?

Note that this is on fm15, but hopefully it should still translate to the newest version.

I play a Standard, Fluid 4-3-3 with the dm in central midfield. 2 bpd(d) and 2 wb(s). The central midfield trio is cm(s)-dlp(d)-cm(s). The 2 wide players are if(s), and the striker is a false nine. Ti's are retain possession, play out of defense, low crosses, play wider, push higher up, close down more, mark tighter, offside trap. The "Guardiola-ness" of the tactic comes from a few things:

 

i) The central midfield setup ensures that the 2 outer cm's occupy the halfspaces, and their interaction is with the wings and dm more so than each other. What this does is allow quick switches from one flank to another by the free cm who is occupying the center instead of trying to support his partner.

 

ii) The ti play wider which further emphasizes the spacing among the players and especially the cm's, ensuring that if a team is defending narrow there is a free player somewhere to progress buildup.

 

iii) The ti's clsoe down more, mark tighter, and offside trap, combined with push higher up, ensures that the passing lane method of pressure Guardiola uses is emulated. This combined with retain possession ensures a large amount of control over the game.

 

iv) specific pi's given to players, which are:

- 2 bpd's are told dribble more, so they can bring the ball out of defense; and pass shorter, to minimize through balls. The reason for bpd is to encourage creativity and increase their passing range.

- 2 wb(s) are told pass it shorter, to make sure they don't hoof it when playing out of the back; and cut inside, so that instead of isolating themselves down the flank they can find combinations inside. Support duty because they support the midfield and are not the main assist givers on the flank, hence shouldn't spam crosses like they would on attack.

- dlp(d) in central midfield is told to close down less, as he's supposed to cover the space the other pressers may expose; and dribble less to ensure he looks for the pass and maintains his deeper position.

- 2 cm(s) are told to run wide with ball, to ensure they come towards the touchline and combine with the wide players; and more risky passes to ensure they are always feeding the front 3. No playmaker duties because I don't want to restrict my player's movements and passing options in that way.

- 2 if(s) are told to stay wider, to ensure maximum width possible and hopefully isolate their marker when the ball is on the other flank; and hold up ball to minimize dribbling and cross spamming, and encourage more combination play. Support duty to ensure that their movement isn't one dimensional, and they track back appropriately. If I find the width still isn't enough yet then I change them to w(s) and add get further forward. If their role is if(s), then their stronger foot should be closer to the touchline, while as w(s) their stronger foot is farther away. This is to encourage variety and unpredictability.

- f9(s) is told to hold up ball, to reduce dribbling and encourage combination play; and shoot less often because they tend to shoot too much for my liking.

 

v) Lastly, tons of team cohesion and teamwork training, while playing the same starting 11 with very few changes each match, to increase team's understanding and the speed of play.

 

So as you can see, a ton of emphasis on width and halfspaces while still controlling the center, high pressing and tight marking to unsettle opponents buildup play, retaining possession without wbib restricting crosses and shots, low crosses & through balls the primary assist types, etc. Looks very Guardiola-ish, plays very Guardiol-ish, but the roles, duties, ti's, and pi's can change situationally. The main thing I don't change that much is the fluidity, since it's essential to pressing, buildup play, forward runs, and basically everything else.

 

PS- A very key thing to remember and imo the most important part is teamwork training, because with so many support duties the team at the beginning won't know very instinctively when to run forward, how to time their runs, when to track back, who to mark when pressing, etc. Once the team gets fully fluid not only with the tactic but with each other, then you see the cm's,  if's, and wb's making much better passes and especially runs, and combining a lot faster, and the high press becomes a lot more dangerous. Usually takes till around the 2nd half of the season or maybe even the 2nd season, with mostly team cohesion training and always teamwork training, until you don't see any miscommunication between the players. 

 Edit: The 2nd key thing is I play similar types players (though not at the same level) to Man City eg. an ap in the right cm spot, a dlp in the left cm spot, a halfback in the cdm spot, ramdeuter type player in rw, etc. all with corresponding ppm's. That helps create variety and replicate Pep a bit more.

 

 

[Gegenklaus]

On 25/1/2018 at 23:50, Cap'nRad said:

Note that this is on fm15, but hopefully it should still translate to the newest version.

I play a Standard, Fluid 4-3-3 with the dm in central midfield. 2 bpd(s) and 2 wb(s). The central midfield trio is cm(s)-dlp(d)-cm(s). The 2 wide players are if(s), and the striker is a false nine. Ti's are retain possession, play out of defense, low crosses, play wider, push higher up, close down more, mark tighter, offside trap. The "Guardiola-ness" of the tactic comes from a few things:

 

i) The central midfield setup ensures that the 2 outer cm's occupy the halfspaces, and their interaction is with the wings and dm more so than each other. What this does is allow quick switches from one flank to another by the free cm who is occupying the center instead of trying to support his partner.

 

ii) The ti play wider which further emphasizes the spacing among the players and especially the cm's, ensuring that if a team is defending narrow there is a free player somewhere to progress buildup.

 

iii) The ti's clsoe down more, mark tighter, and offside trap, combined with push higher up, ensures that the passing lane method of pressure Guardiola uses is emulated. This combined with retain possession ensures a large amount of control over the game.

 

iv) specific pi's given to players, which are:

- 2 bpd's are told dribble more, so they can bring the ball out of defense; and pass shorter, to minimize through balls. The reason for bpd is to encourage creativity and increase their passing range.

- 2 wb(s) are told pass it shorter, to make sure they don't hood it when playing out of the back; and cut inside, so that instead of isolating themselves down the flank they can find combinations inside. Support duty because they support the midfield and are not the main assist givers on the flank, hence shouldn't spam crosses like they would on attack.

- dlp(d) in central midfield is told to close down less, as he's supposed to cover the space the other pressers may expose; and dribble less to ensure he looks for the pass and maintains his deeper position.

- 2 cm(s) are told to run wide with ball, to ensure they come towards the touchline and combine with the wide players; and more risky passes to ensure they are always feeding the front 3. No playmaker duties because I don't want to restrict my player's movements and passing options in that way.

- 2 if(s) are told to stay wider, to ensure maximum width possible and hopefully isolate their marker when the ball is on the other flank; and hold up ball to minimize dribbling and encourage more combination play. Support duty to ensure that their movement isn't one dimensional, and they track back appropriately. If I find the width is still enough yet then I change them to w(s) and add get further forward. If their role is if, then their stronger foot should be closer to the touchline, while as w(s) their stronger foot is farther away. This is to encourage creativity.

- f9(s) is told to hold up ball, to reduce dribbling and encourage combination play; and shoot less often because they tend to shoot too much for my liking.

 

v) Lastly, tons of team cohesion and teamwork training, while playing the same starting 11 with very few changes each match, to increase team's understanding and the speed of play.

 

So as you can see, a ton of emphasis on width and halfspaces while still controlling the center, high pressing and tight marking to unsettle opponents buildup play, retaining possession without wbib restricting crosses and shots, low crosses & through balls the primary assist types, etc. Looks very Guardiola-ish, plays very Guardiol-ish, but the roles, duties, ti's, and pi's can change situationally. The main thing I don't change that much is the fluidity, since it's essential to pressing, buildup play, forward runs, and basically everything else.

 

PS- A very key thing to remember is imo the most important part for my tactic is teamwork training, because with so many support duties the team at the beginning won't know very instinctively when to run forward, how to time their runs, when to track back, who to mark when pressing, etc. Once the team gets fully fluid not only with the tactic but with each other, then you see the cm's,  if's, and wb's making much better passes and especially runs, and combining a lot faster. Usually takes till around the 2nd half of the season or maybe even the 2nd season, with mostly team cohesion training and always teamwork training, until you don't see any miscommunication between the players. 

 

 

Thats some good stuff. I really like the thought about the 3 CMs. Ive been playing with a 4141 because I love the way the inverted wingers holds the width (I use players with prefered foot closest to the touchline - makes them less one-dimensional wingers). I will try to put my DLP in to the MC strata, and bump my dline a bit to compress the space between midfield and defense. 

Thanks a lot for your response!

[Cap'nRad]

1 hour ago, Gegenklaus said:

Thats some good stuff. I really like the thought about the 3 CMs. Ive been playing with a 4141 because I love the way the inverted wingers hold the way (I use players with prefered foot closest to the touchline - makes them less one-dimensional wingers). I will try to put my DLP in to the MC strata, and bump my dline a bit to compress the space between midfield and defense. 

Thanks a lot for your response!

No problem . Philosophies like Guardiola's and Klopp's I view less as a formation/ tactic, and more as a style of play or philosophy which encompasses all parts of the club, ultimately culminating in distinct on-pitch performances. Thus when I attempt to replicate such managers the actual tactic is second to the style of play.

[blehq12]

On 1/26/2018 at 08:27, Cap'nRad said:

No problem . Philosophies like Guardiola's and Klopp's I view less as a formation/ tactic, and more as a style of play or philosophy which encompasses all parts of the club, ultimately culminating in distinct on-pitch performances. Thus when I attempt to replicate such managers the actual tactic is second to the style of play.

https://spielverlagerung.com/2018/01/02/how-peps-citizens-have-taken-over-england/

Great summary this article presents, really summarizes Pep's philosophy at City.

[Curtinho]

On 1/31/2018 at 06:17, blehq12 said:

https://spielverlagerung.com/2018/01/02/how-peps-citizens-have-taken-over-england/

Great summary this article presents, really summarizes Pep's philosophy at City.

This is a fantastic article. I used it to make my City based tactic. Right now this is what I have:

 

DLF (A): Firmino

W (S): Mane ---------------------------------------------------------- W (S): Salah

MEZ (S): Wijnaldum - DLP (D): Henderson - MEZ (S): Can

IWB (S): Robertson - CD (D): van Dijk - CD (D): Lovren - IWB (S): Alexander-Arnold

SK (S): Karius

Counter/Structured - Play Much Wider, Much Higher Defensive Line, Use Offside Trap, Close Down Much More, Mark Tighter, Retain Possession, Work Ball Into Box, Look for Underlap

The only PIs I have are for the W (S); I put both of them to 'get further forward'. The main thing with those two positions is that I actually use them with opposite feet. So I've been using this tactic with Liverpool and I put the respective players where they are. I haven't experimented with it yet but I was also thinking Mez/W swap positions if that's possible.

[goqs06]

20 hours ago, Curtinho said:

This is a fantastic article. I used it to make my City based tactic. Right now this is what I have:

 

DLF (A): Firmino

W (S): Mane ---------------------------------------------------------- W (S): Salah

MEZ (S): Wijnaldum - DLP (D): Henderson - MEZ (S): Can

IWB (S): Robertson - CD (D): van Dijk - CD (D): Lovren - IWB (S): Alexander-Arnold

SK (S): Karius

Counter/Structured - Play Much Wider, Much Higher Defensive Line, Use Offside Trap, Close Down Much More, Mark Tighter, Retain Possession, Work Ball Into Box, Look for Underlap

The only PIs I have are for the W (S); I put both of them to 'get further forward'. The main thing with those two positions is that I actually use them with opposite feet. So I've been using this tactic with Liverpool and I put the respective players where they are. I haven't experimented with it yet but I was also thinking Mez/W swap positions if that's possible.

Spot on here but the "Sterling" role should be a IF (s) with "play wider" as he cuts in more often than Sane.

[yonko]

4 hours ago, goqs06 said:

Spot on here but the "Sterling" role should be a IF (s) with "play wider" as he cuts in more often than Sane.

Doesn't Sterling have the PPM to cut inside from both wings? He would do that with any role given. IRL I don't think he cuts inside so much with the ball, but rather drifts inside without it, in the final third. 

[MrMourinho]

On 2018-01-25 at 23:50, Cap'nRad said:

Note that this is on fm15, but hopefully it should still translate to the newest version.

I play a Standard, Fluid 4-3-3 with the dm in central midfield. 2 bpd(d) and 2 wb(s). The central midfield trio is cm(s)-dlp(d)-cm(s). The 2 wide players are if(s), and the striker is a false nine. Ti's are retain possession, play out of defense, low crosses, play wider, push higher up, close down more, mark tighter, offside trap. The "Guardiola-ness" of the tactic comes from a few things:

 

i) The central midfield setup ensures that the 2 outer cm's occupy the halfspaces, and their interaction is with the wings and dm more so than each other. What this does is allow quick switches from one flank to another by the free cm who is occupying the center instead of trying to support his partner.

 

ii) The ti play wider which further emphasizes the spacing among the players and especially the cm's, ensuring that if a team is defending narrow there is a free player somewhere to progress buildup.

 

iii) The ti's clsoe down more, mark tighter, and offside trap, combined with push higher up, ensures that the passing lane method of pressure Guardiola uses is emulated. This combined with retain possession ensures a large amount of control over the game.

 

iv) specific pi's given to players, which are:

- 2 bpd's are told dribble more, so they can bring the ball out of defense; and pass shorter, to minimize through balls. The reason for bpd is to encourage creativity and increase their passing range.

- 2 wb(s) are told pass it shorter, to make sure they don't hoof it when playing out of the back; and cut inside, so that instead of isolating themselves down the flank they can find combinations inside. Support duty because they support the midfield and are not the main assist givers on the flank, hence shouldn't spam crosses like they would on attack.

- dlp(d) in central midfield is told to close down less, as he's supposed to cover the space the other pressers may expose; and dribble less to ensure he looks for the pass and maintains his deeper position.

- 2 cm(s) are told to run wide with ball, to ensure they come towards the touchline and combine with the wide players; and more risky passes to ensure they are always feeding the front 3. No playmaker duties because I don't want to restrict my player's movements and passing options in that way.

- 2 if(s) are told to stay wider, to ensure maximum width possible and hopefully isolate their marker when the ball is on the other flank; and hold up ball to minimize dribbling and cross spamming, and encourage more combination play. Support duty to ensure that their movement isn't one dimensional, and they track back appropriately. If I find the width still isn't enough yet then I change them to w(s) and add get further forward. If their role is if(s), then their stronger foot should be closer to the touchline, while as w(s) their stronger foot is farther away. This is to encourage variety and unpredictability.

- f9(s) is told to hold up ball, to reduce dribbling and encourage combination play; and shoot less often because they tend to shoot too much for my liking.

 

v) Lastly, tons of team cohesion and teamwork training, while playing the same starting 11 with very few changes each match, to increase team's understanding and the speed of play.

 

So as you can see, a ton of emphasis on width and halfspaces while still controlling the center, high pressing and tight marking to unsettle opponents buildup play, retaining possession without wbib restricting crosses and shots, low crosses & through balls the primary assist types, etc. Looks very Guardiola-ish, plays very Guardiol-ish, but the roles, duties, ti's, and pi's can change situationally. The main thing I don't change that much is the fluidity, since it's essential to pressing, buildup play, forward runs, and basically everything else.

 

PS- A very key thing to remember and imo the most important part is teamwork training, because with so many support duties the team at the beginning won't know very instinctively when to run forward, how to time their runs, when to track back, who to mark when pressing, etc. Once the team gets fully fluid not only with the tactic but with each other, then you see the cm's,  if's, and wb's making much better passes and especially runs, and combining a lot faster, and the high press becomes a lot more dangerous. Usually takes till around the 2nd half of the season or maybe even the 2nd season, with mostly team cohesion training and always teamwork training, until you don't see any miscommunication between the players. 

 Edit: The 2nd key thing is I play similar types players (though not at the same level) to Man City eg. an ap in the right cm spot, a dlp in the left cm spot, a halfback in the cdm spot, ramdeuter type player in rw, etc. all with corresponding ppm's. That helps create variety and replicate Pep a bit more.

 

 

I really like your ideas here. I have used your ideas as a base and just changed a few things. I really like what I have seen so far. From my perspective, it looks definitely like Guardiola's Man City team when viewing a game. 

What I changed from your ideas are the following: 

- an inverted wingback on defend instead of a wingback (s)

- added PI "sit narrower" to the wingback (s)

- removed  both the CM (s) PI's "run wide with the ball" and changed It to "move into channels"

- gave one of the CM (s) a "get further forward" PI

- gave one of the IF (s) a "get further forward" PI

- added TI's "work ball into box" and "prevent short GK distribution"

 

I have a few question for you:

- What are your PI's for your f9 (s)? You say you added hold up ball, but that is already included in the role? Also, did you add dribble less as a PI for him?

- Do you think the CM (s) PI's run wide with the ball works? What do you think of the change I made? That is to remove it and add move into channels? I thought that maybe adding that would get them to move into the half spaces or am I wrong?

 

I really like your thinking about setting up a tactical system based on core principles and tweak it through your personnel. I also find more enjoyment thinking and playing like this. Finally, do you have any more interesting thoughts about your set up? Have you played anything with it and if so has it worked?

Thanks, 

Anders, Sweden

 

 

[goqs06]

On 03/02/2018 at 00:17, Curtinho said:

This is a fantastic article. I used it to make my City based tactic. Right now this is what I have:

 

DLF (A): Firmino

W (S): Mane ---------------------------------------------------------- W (S): Salah

MEZ (S): Wijnaldum - DLP (D): Henderson - MEZ (S): Can

IWB (S): Robertson - CD (D): van Dijk - CD (D): Lovren - IWB (S): Alexander-Arnold

SK (S): Karius

Counter/Structured - Play Much Wider, Much Higher Defensive Line, Use Offside Trap, Close Down Much More, Mark Tighter, Retain Possession, Work Ball Into Box, Look for Underlap

The only PIs I have are for the W (S); I put both of them to 'get further forward'. The main thing with those two positions is that I actually use them with opposite feet. So I've been using this tactic with Liverpool and I put the respective players where they are. I haven't experimented with it yet but I was also thinking Mez/W swap positions if that's possible.

This works but I think the De Bruyne role is more suited as a RPM or simply a CM (s). He doesn’t play such an advanced role like Silva but still drifts wide.

[blehq12]

On 2/12/2018 at 20:00, goqs06 said:

This works but I think the De Bruyne role is more suited as a RPM or simply a CM (s). He doesn’t play such an advanced role like Silva but still drifts wide.

Indeed, but sometimes De Bruyne is deployed as a Mezzala in certain games.